M3 questions

[the.ra.pist]

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I'm a soon-to-be M3 (just finished Step 1), and I'm nervous about starting rotations soon.

I have mild Asperger's, and I'm just worried of coming off like a gunner (I swear I'm not). I tend to be emotionally distant from everyone, and I say/do things that are at times socially embarrassing.

I've heard weird stories about people acting like gunners that seem... normal to me. For example, I heard this from an upperclassman: med student 1 asked question by an attending, say he doesn't know, attending asks med student 2 who answers the question correctly.

Apparently, med student 2 is supposed to pretend they don't know to avoid making med student 1 look/feel bad?

Is that really true? That seems insane to me. Any other tips to not come off like a gunner next year?

 

[mvenus929]

No, med student 2 can answer the question. The gunner would be the person who answers before med student 1 has the opportunity to answer, or pimps a fellow student (with the intent of making him/her look bad).

 

[operaman]

Yeah, my guess from your story is that Student 1 was asked the questions, didn't know, and then student 2 jumped in without being asked to show how smart he was. If not asked, don't jump in. If asked, it's fair game for student 2 to answer. Oftentimes my attendings will start the pimping with the most junior person and bump it up the chain until someone gets it right, so if you're asked directly or if the question is clearly for the whole group, smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Here's a quick and dirty guide for not being a douche during 3rd year:
1) Talk with your fellow students and agree on what time you're all going to arrive.
2) Split work/patients up as evenly as possible.
3) Everyone leaves at the same time.
4) Always take personal responsibility if something is your fault. If something is not your fault, it's not your place to volunteer the name of the person at fault (obviously this excludes severe cases). For example, attending asks your fellow student to look up an article on XYZ and talk about it the next day on rounds. The next morning, attending asks you to talk about it. Ideally, your fellow student should volunteer that it was his job, but if he doesn't, don't call him out on it; just say you weren't aware the assignment was directed at you and ask if you can present on it the next day.
5) Focus on your own patients; if the resident or attending asks a question about your buddy's patient, don't punk your buddy by showing that you looked it up while he forgot. Just shut your mouth and be glad it's not you this time.
6) If possible, everyone takes lunch together.
7) If you have a lecture or workshop to go to, either everyone returns to the floor afterwards or nobody does.

I'm sure people can think of others. Just realize that you're part of a team and that if your fellow student team members hate you, chances are that the rest of the team does too.

 

[Ionian]

Yeah, my guess from your story is that Student 1 was asked the questions, didn't know, and then student 2 jumped in without being asked to show how smart he was. If not asked, don't jump in. If asked, it's fair game for student 2 to answer. Oftentimes my attendings will start the pimping with the most junior person and bump it up the chain until someone gets it right, so if you're asked directly or if the question is clearly for the whole group, smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Here's a quick and dirty guide for not being a douche during 3rd year:
1) Talk with your fellow students and agree on what time you're all going to arrive.
2) Split work/patients up as evenly as possible.
3) Everyone leaves at the same time.
4) Always take personal responsibility if something is your fault. If something is not your fault, it's not your place to volunteer the name of the person at fault (obviously this excludes severe cases). For example, attending asks your fellow student to look up an article on XYZ and talk about it the next day on rounds. The next morning, attending asks you to talk about it. Ideally, your fellow student should volunteer that it was his job, but if he doesn't, don't call him out on it; just say you weren't aware the assignment was directed at you and ask if you can present on it the next day.
5) Focus on your own patients; if the resident or attending asks a question about your buddy's patient, don't punk your buddy by showing that you looked it up while he forgot. Just shut your mouth and be glad it's not you this time.
6) If possible, everyone takes lunch together.
7) If you have a lecture or workshop to go to, either everyone returns to the floor afterwards or nobody does.

I'm sure people can think of others. Just realize that you're part of a team and that if your fellow student team members hate you, chances are that the rest of the team does too.

 

[Microglia]

Yeah, my guess from your story is that Student 1 was asked the questions, didn't know, and then student 2 jumped in without being asked to show how smart he was. If not asked, don't jump in. If asked, it's fair game for student 2 to answer. Oftentimes my attendings will start the pimping with the most junior person and bump it up the chain until someone gets it right, so if you're asked directly or if the question is clearly for the whole group, smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Here's a quick and dirty guide for not being a douche during 3rd year:
1) Talk with your fellow students and agree on what time you're all going to arrive.
2) Split work/patients up as evenly as possible.
3) Everyone leaves at the same time.
4) Always take personal responsibility if something is your fault. If something is not your fault, it's not your place to volunteer the name of the person at fault (obviously this excludes severe cases). For example, attending asks your fellow student to look up an article on XYZ and talk about it the next day on rounds. The next morning, attending asks you to talk about it. Ideally, your fellow student should volunteer that it was his job, but if he doesn't, don't call him out on it; just say you weren't aware the assignment was directed at you and ask if you can present on it the next day.
5) Focus on your own patients; if the resident or attending asks a question about your buddy's patient, don't punk your buddy by showing that you looked it up while he forgot. Just shut your mouth and be glad it's not you this time.
6) If possible, everyone takes lunch together.
7) If you have a lecture or workshop to go to, either everyone returns to the floor afterwards or nobody does.

I'm sure people can think of others. Just realize that you're part of a team and that if your fellow student team members hate you, chances are that the rest of the team does too.

My god. This sounds like the most drama-ey, ridiculously sensitive crowd on the planet (Not you, just m3 in general). To not be a gunner you must arrive at the same time, eat lunch together, and leave together? Seriously? Do you have to take potty breaks together too?

Edited to shorten my late night rant 🙂

 

[operaman]

My god. This sounds like the most drama-ey, ridiculously sensitive crowd on the planet (Not you, just m3 in general). To not be a gunner you must arrive at the same time, eat lunch together, and leave together? Seriously? Do you have to take potty breaks together too?

Edited to shorten my late night rant 🙂

Haha yeah I can see how it might sound that way. What I was really getting at was the importance of working and functioning as a team and laying out some specifics about how you might think about doing it. I see lots of advice given but rarely see any actual specifics, so I try to give those whenever possible.

As an example of what not to do, I'll give you the example of -- let's call him 'John' -- from the class above me. He would always arrive an hour or two earlier than everyone else on his team(including him) had agreed upon, pick up every new patient admitted overnight and any other unclaimed from the day before leaving nothing for the other students. He would go see all of his patients plus all of the other students' patients to. On rounds, the other students would only have 1-2 patients to present and he would present all the rest. He would correct the other students on their own patients. He would tell his fellow students he was leaving too only to turn around and go back and say he didn't know why the rest had left. He would also throw his fellow students under the bus whenever possible. You can imagine how the other students felt about him. Unfortunately, it was pretty obvious to all the residents what he was doing so none of them liked him either and it ultimately showed up in his evals. He ended up matching into a competitive field but not nearly as well as someone with his stats and grades and research might have done.

There's nothing wrong with working hard and if you're a stellar student you will still shine even if you're working effectively as part of a team. Now, if you're paired up with a bunch of lazy SOBs who are trying to do the bare minimum possible, then all bets are off but I only ran into one or two of those people this year and they were 1/3 or 1/4 of students on the team. The person in my example above is truly one of those gifted people who could have looked like a rockstar no matter what he did, but ended up with a reputation for being the biggest d-bag to get paired up with.

 

[DermViser]

I'm a soon-to-be M3 (just finished Step 1), and I'm nervous about starting rotations soon.

I have mild Asperger's, and I'm just worried of coming off like a gunner (I swear I'm not). I tend to be emotionally distant from everyone, and I say/do things that are at times socially embarrassing.

I've heard weird stories about people acting like gunners that seem... normal to me. For example, I heard this from an upperclassman: med student 1 asked question by an attending, say he doesn't know, attending asks med student 2 who answers the question correctly.

Apparently, med student 2 is supposed to pretend they don't know to avoid making med student 1 look/feel bad?

Is that really true? That seems insane to me. Any other tips to not come off like a gunner next year?

Uh, no the med student 2 is not supposed to do what that upperclassman thinks they should do and "pretend" they don't know the answer when asked. STOP listening to him.

 

[DermViser]

As an example of what not to do, I'll give you the example of -- let's call him 'John' -- from the class above me. He would always arrive an hour or two earlier than everyone else on his team(including him) had agreed upon, pick up every new patient admitted overnight and any other unclaimed from the day before leaving nothing for the other students. He would go see all of his patients plus all of the other students' patients to. On rounds, the other students would only have 1-2 patients to present and he would present all the rest. He would correct the other students on their own patients. He would tell his fellow students he was leaving too only to turn around and go back and say he didn't know why the rest had left. He would also throw his fellow students under the bus whenever possible. You can imagine how the other students felt about him. Unfortunately, it was pretty obvious to all the residents what he was doing so none of them liked him either and it ultimately showed up in his evals. He ended up matching into a competitive field but not nearly as well as someone with his stats and grades and research might have done.

THIS.

 

[Apoplexy__]

Now, if you're paired up with a bunch of lazy SOBs who are trying to do the bare minimum possible, then all bets are off

This is the tricky part -- relativity. When I think of my M2 classmates off the top of my head, I can see at least 20% of them minimizing and being little b*tches about everything. But they probably don't consider themselves as lazy/bare minimum type people. I could potentially be the minority when paired with a group of these people...in that case, I would look like a gunner just for doing my job, not even for going above and beyond.

I guess it's just one of those gray areas.

 

[VisionaryTics]

This is the tricky part -- relativity. When I think of my M2 classmates off the top of my head, I can see at least 20% of them minimizing and being little b*tches about everything. But they probably don't consider themselves as lazy/bare minimum type people. I could potentially be the minority when paired with a group of these people...in that case, I would look like a gunner just for doing my job, not even for going above and beyond.

I guess it's just one of those gray areas.

It happens. There's a flipside to operaman's posts: sometimes, there are really lazy med students who need to meet the others in the middle, and it doesn't always happen.

 

[BobbyB]

what i do in that situation is try to help out student #1

we're all gonna make it brah

 

[tantacles]

Yeah, my guess from your story is that Student 1 was asked the questions, didn't know, and then student 2 jumped in without being asked to show how smart he was. If not asked, don't jump in. If asked, it's fair game for student 2 to answer. Oftentimes my attendings will start the pimping with the most junior person and bump it up the chain until someone gets it right, so if you're asked directly or if the question is clearly for the whole group, smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Here's a quick and dirty guide for not being a douche during 3rd year:
1) Talk with your fellow students and agree on what time you're all going to arrive.
2) Split work/patients up as evenly as possible.
3) Everyone leaves at the same time.
4) Always take personal responsibility if something is your fault. If something is not your fault, it's not your place to volunteer the name of the person at fault (obviously this excludes severe cases). For example, attending asks your fellow student to look up an article on XYZ and talk about it the next day on rounds. The next morning, attending asks you to talk about it. Ideally, your fellow student should volunteer that it was his job, but if he doesn't, don't call him out on it; just say you weren't aware the assignment was directed at you and ask if you can present on it the next day.
5) Focus on your own patients; if the resident or attending asks a question about your buddy's patient, don't punk your buddy by showing that you looked it up while he forgot. Just shut your mouth and be glad it's not you this time.
6) If possible, everyone takes lunch together.
7) If you have a lecture or workshop to go to, either everyone returns to the floor afterwards or nobody does.

I'm sure people can think of others. Just realize that you're part of a team and that if your fellow student team members hate you, chances are that the rest of the team does too.

Saving this.

 

[penguinism]

Not sure if username is "therapist" or "the rapist."

Just work together and don't undermine other students.

 

[operaman]

This is the tricky part -- relativity. When I think of my M2 classmates off the top of my head, I can see at least 20% of them minimizing and being little b*tches about everything. But they probably don't consider themselves as lazy/bare minimum type people. I could potentially be the minority when paired with a group of these people...in that case, I would look like a gunner just for doing my job, not even for going above and beyond.

I guess it's just one of those gray areas.

No you won't. When people are lazy and whine about everything, it's painfully obvious to everyone else. In that case, just do your job and work as hard as you feel comfortable doing. If they get there late and the other student(s) have already picked up all the new admits, then tough. If they want to leave early then let them go. I promise you, there's no way to accidentally look like a d-bag gunner unless you are one.