PhD/PsyD MA/MS ---> PhD Counseling Path for 2nd Career

[Brown2002]

Hello,
I am seeking input re: a MA/MS --> Counseling Psychology PhD path that I am exploring.

I'm looking to enter counseling psychology as a second career. I had a long first career in business, became a ICF-certified executive coach two years ago and my training and client experience in private practice has led me to the decision that I'd like to pursue a career in counseling psychology. I did not study psychology in college (I graduated 20 years ago), and so I am interested in pursuing a MA/MS in counseling psychology first, and then possibly a PhD afterward. I live in NYC and am looking at NYU and Columbia TC's MA Counseling programs. That said, because I plan to also work through my masters, I am considering online programs that will allow me to be remote and study part-time (such as Northwestern).

My main questions are 2-fold:
1) Is my strategy to receive an MA/MS prior to a PhD sound? Or, would it be more time and cost-effective to do Post-Bac work and then apply directly to a PhD program?
2) I've seen some vitriol here re: online programs. Would a program from a CACREP-certified online program (like Northwestern) preclude my candidacy for a PhD?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[R. Matey]

1. Sound, yes. Cost-effective, probably not. There are a number of counseling psychology programs that assume a master's degree upon entry, but they are becoming fewer and fewer as the years go on. I went this route and had a number of offers when I applied years ago, but at this point, It might be better to just do the postbacc work and apply all over. If you just want to stay at TC, you can talk to faculty about how many of their own M.A. students they accept in their Ph.D. program.

2. You've likely read my arguments against online programs, so I won't repeat them. But consider this: do you believe an online master's program has the capability to prepare you to do research in a Ph.D. program in two years from now? The answer is likely no since the faculty will focus on training you to be a clinician.
2a. Consider the debt you're taking on for an online program and/or, if the plan is to pay for it along the way, consider how much time you have to spend doing this that detracts from your research productivity, goals, etc.
2b. CACREP is not a guarantee of a quality program given there is no evidence that CACREP-accredited graduates fair better than non-CACREP accredited graduates on any outcome.
2c. Namebrand institutions sell their name in online programs because it makes money. This is also not a guarantee of quality.
2d. M.A. counseling program are huge money makers for universities in general despite poor occupational outcomes.

 

[summerbabe]

Why a PhD instead of MA/MS that grants licensure as a therapist? And are you familiar with how to become a competitive PhD candidate? MA/MS alone without focused research output likely won’t cut it, unless you want to pay $150,000+ for a PsyD that likely over-accepts students.

All 3 schools you listed have a lot of prestige attached to their name and you’ll pay for that privilege if you attend. But don’t expect that to factor in for PhD applications. A lot of really good PhD programs are housed at state universities and sometimes, not even the ‘flagship’ for that state so it’s very different than how MBAs and JDs are perceived.

That said, because I plan to also work through my masters, I am considering online programs that will allow me to be remote and study part-time (such as Northwestern).

Are you planning on continuing your current work and if so, at what type of hours/schedule? A quality program, especially one that preps their students for PhD studies, is gonna make substantial employment challenging. I had a graduate assistantship during my MS for 20 hrs/wk doing academic advising for undergrad psych majors and I don’t think I could have managed anything beyond that, especially since I was trying to stay active with research to apply to a PhD program later on. And you’ll likely have no to poor flexibility with course times (especially if it’s a cohort based program) as each class will only be taught once and whenever the professors feels like teaching it.

 

[WisNeuro]

Why a PhD instead of MA/MS that grants licensure as a therapist? And are you familiar with how to become a competitive PhD candidate? MA/MS alone without focused research output likely won’t cut it, unless you want to pay $150,000+ for a PsyD that likely over-accepts students.

At that point, I'd suggest the SW route as it opens up more billing options in most jurisdictions.

 

[Sanman]

At that point, I'd suggest the SW route as it opens up more billing options in most jurisdictions.

Yup, the MSW at Hunter college (CUNY) is probably the best bet in NYC right now.

OP, are you willing to leave NYC for 5-7 years? What are your career goals because I am not sure what a PhD would help depending on your interests.

 

[Brown2002]

Thank you for these thoughtful replies! It's given me a lot to think about.

Why a PhD instead of MA/MS that grants licensure as a therapist?

This is a great question. Honestly, one reason I'm most interested in a terminal MA/MS program is that it would give me the option to pursue licensure after graduation in the event that I determine a doctorate path is not right for me/my family/our circumstances. That said, I really value the idea of developing mastery as a practitioner through my education and I've heard mixed reviews about clinical training experiences in masters programs.

Are you planning on continuing your current work and if so, at what type of hours/schedule?

I am hoping to continue my work as an executive coach throughout my master's study (and would stop if/when I enter a doctorate program). Today, I meet with clients for 15-20 hours/week, but it is a private practice, so I set my own hours, manage all sessions via Zoom and can scale up and down with relative ease.

MA/MS alone without focused research output likely won’t cut it

All noted the importance of research experience in a doctorate application. I will be keeping this front of mind as I explore MA/MS programs.

I went this route and had a number of offers when I applied years ago, but at this point, It might be better to just do the postbacc work and apply all over.

This is interesting feedback. Columbia has a postbacc program that I'm exploring. It seems the downside to a postbacc is that if I decide down the road a doctorate path is not in the cards for me/my family, it would leave me without a path to licensure.

You've likely read my arguments against online programs, so I won't repeat them. But consider this: do you believe an online master's program has the capability to prepare you to do research in a Ph.D. program in two years from now?

All clear on these points - they are fair, although there are admittedly other considerations I have at this point in life with a young family that makes an online program especially appealing, despite the other inferiorities you describe. Ultimately, what I'm hearing you say is that an online MA/MS program will likely not set me up to be a competitive candidate for a doctoral program -- would you say I have that right?

OP, are you willing to leave NYC for 5-7 years? What are your career goals because I am not sure what a PhD would help depending on your interests.

Unfortunately, no -- we're pretty bound to NYC metro area for the time being given partner's career, kids, etc. Columbia, Fordham, NYU and Rutgers are the universities with seemingly quality MA/MS/PhD programs that are within reasonable traveling distance from me.

Re: career goals. I'm interested in working with the same or similar population I work with now in an executive coaching capacity: ambitious executives confronting major confidence issues and self-limitation in the workplace and beyond. For what it's worth, I actually do really appreciate the coaching modality (I've been through extensive therapy and coaching myself), but feel psychology training would enable me to better assist clients to really navigate their challenges and make long-term changes to their belief patterns/behaviors. I see myself working in private practice.

 

[R. Matey]

All clear on these points - they are fair, although there are admittedly other considerations I have at this point in life with a young family that makes an online program especially appealing, despite the other inferiorities you describe. Ultimately, what I'm hearing you say is that an online MA/MS program will likely not set me up to be a competitive candidate for a doctoral program -- would you say I have that right?

Yes, an online clinical program will not give you the skills or experience necessary to be competitive for a Ph.D. program in counseling psychology. Heck, a face-to-face program may not even do this for you. I did my Ph.D. with a family in tow and it was TOUGH and there were professional sacrifices made so I get it. However, you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot either. @WisNeuro made a good point about an MSW if your endgame is psychotherapy (which it sounds like it is). There are some master's programs (like the one at TC) that might better prepare you for research at the doctorate level.

 

[Brown2002]

Yes, an online clinical program will not give you the skills or experience necessary to be competitive for a Ph.D. program in counseling psychology. Heck, a face-to-face program may not even do this for you. I did my Ph.D. with a family in tow and it was TOUGH and there were professional sacrifices made so I get it. However, you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot either. @WisNeuro made a good point about an MSW if your endgame is psychotherapy (which it sounds like it is). There are some master's programs (like the one at TC) that might better prepare you for research at the doctorate level.

Really helpful feedback, thank you!

Just so I'm following re: the MSW point... It sounds like the advantage of an MSW route is the potential upside re: billing options once licensed. Beyond that, is there also a sense that an MSW program is possibly a better training ground for a future psychotherapist vs. an MS/MA in counseling?

 

[summerbabe]

Columbia has a postbacc program that I'm exploring. It seems the downside to a postbacc is that if I decide down the road a doctorate path is not in the cards for me/my family, it would leave me without a path to licensure.

Most people who do postbacc work in prep for a PhD either volunteer or do paid RA type work with a research lab. Doing a postbacc program is probably the worst of your options IMO.

Unfortunately, no -- we're pretty bound to NYC metro area for the time being given partner's career, kids, etc. Columbia, Fordham, NYU and Rutgers are the universities with seemingly quality MA/MS/PhD programs that are within reasonable traveling distance from me.

I probably wouldn't recommend a PhD for somebody who is so geographically restricted between difficulty of getting into a program (even with a Master's and research experience) and the very very strong likelihood of needing to relocate for your predoctoral internship year.

Re: career goals. I'm interested in working with the same or similar population I work with now in an executive coaching capacity: ambitious executives confronting major confidence issues and self-limitation in the workplace and beyond. For what it's worth, I actually do really appreciate the coaching modality (I've been through extensive therapy and coaching myself), but feel psychology training would enable me to better assist clients to really navigate their challenges and make long-term changes to their belief patterns/behaviors. I see myself working in private practice.

Unless having the prestige of calling yourself a doctor is necessary to make inroads in setting up this type of business, a PhD might be overkill. Plus, you'd likely be looking at 2 years MA/MS + 3-4 years (and potentially longer) PhD studies + 1 year predoctoral internship + 1 year postdoctoral fellowship/1 years worth of supervised clinical hours until you can be independently licensed as a psychologist.

One other thing I'll mention is that counseling and social work programs often place significant emphasis on social justice, multiculturalism, and advocacy and many graduates end up working in not for profit settings such as community mental health, hospitals, prisons, and college counseling centers so it's quite possible that somebody coming from the business world with interest in returning to that world might be seen as a worse fit for admissions than say, a candidate with hundreds of volunteer hours with an under-served population and future directions on how they will use this degree to continue serving these populations and is also in sync with program philosophies. For example, the first 'highlight' for Teachers College Ed.M in Mental Health Counseling program says:

In-depth infusion of racial-cultural and social justice emphases throughout program components. Although our curriculum features certain courses with words like "multicultural" in the titles, our multicultural-social justice instruction does not reside in just those courses. Rather, we conceptualize every course and program experience within the context of a social justice and racial-cultural framework. Not only is this orientation consonant with our belief that socially-just practice is ethical, effective practice, it also allows us to align our work with broader movement toward social equity.

Obviously plenty of people end up in private practice and some make a really great living from wealthy clientele but your initial admission is gonna be a combination of your CV, personal statement/application, and interview so make sure to give thought to how you fit with the mission statements of these prospective programs.

Beyond that, is there also a sense that an MSW program is possibly a better training ground for a future psychotherapist vs. an MS/MA in counseling?

If somebody feels genuinely able to provide great psychotherapy after a MA/MS program or even PhD, they are likely either narcissistic or deluded. Yes, you will get more psychotherapy training in a counseling program but you will be far from a finished product. I'm an early career psychologist and I am better at my job this year than last year and will hopefully be better next year compared to this year. Experience + continued education (e.g., attending advanced workshops on specific therapies) and willingness to keep learning and growing is really key to get 'good' at this stuff.

 

[R. Matey]

Just so I'm following re: the MSW point... It sounds like the advantage of an MSW route is the potential upside re: billing options once licensed. Beyond that, is there also a sense that an MSW program is possibly a better training ground for a future psychotherapist vs. an MS/MA in counseling?

As @summerbabe mentioned, counseling programs tend to offer more training in psychotherapy, but this is hardly sufficient to open a practice right after finishing school. By contrast, MSW programs offer less, but because of their history and lobby, they tend to have slightly better prospects in terms of opportunities in hospitals/VAs and the like compared to LPCs. SWs can also bill Medicare where LPCs can't without a special authorization from a physician and that depends on what state you live in. Don't know what the rules are for NY.

In either case, you'll be doing 1-2 years of full time post-master's clinical work and an exam in order to be licensed if you go this route. The therapists who do well at the master's level use that time to seek out additional training either through a fellowship or some kind of structured training program to hone in their specialities. The ones who are mediocre or bad do them wherever they can. Just please do the world a favor and don't open a private practice right after graduation. You will not be competent to practice independently at that point in your career and whatever supervision you'd be receiving will likely be inadequate to cover a wide breadth of cases you'd be seeing in such a setting.

 

[Brown2002]

I probably wouldn't recommend a PhD for somebody who is so geographically restricted between difficulty of getting into a program (even with a Master's and research experience) and the very very strong likelihood of needing to relocate for your predoctoral internship year.

@summerbabe Very helpful points re: location specificity and potential overkill re: PhD route. All of this resonates. Thank you.

Here's what's shaping up for me: find the right MA/MS program that feels like the best foundational training for the work I want to do. If, along the way, the doctoral path seems necessary or exciting enough to sacrifice certain family stability for, supplement my masters experience with additional research and apply to a breadth of programs. Otherwise, concentrate on additional structured training/supervision post-masters/licensure (and ongoing continued education thereafter) to be the best therapist I can be.

it's quite possible that somebody coming from the business world with interest in returning to that world might be seen as a worse fit for admissions than say, a candidate with hundreds of volunteer hours with an under-served population and future directions on how they will use this degree to continue serving these populations and is also in sync with program philosophies.

Yep - this is a big point! I appreciate your pointing this out.

The therapists who do well at the master's level use that time to seek out additional training either through a fellowship or some kind of structured training program to hone in their specialities. The ones who are mediocre or bad do them wherever they can. Just please do the world a favor and don't open a private practice right after graduation.

Great. What I'm hearing: it's possible to be a great clinician following an MA/MS program, but requires significant investment post-graduation in additional supervision + training / specialization.

 

[Sanman]

As @summerbabe mentioned, counseling programs tend to offer more training in psychotherapy, but this is hardly sufficient to open a practice right after finishing school. By contrast, MSW programs offer less, but because of their history and lobby, they tend to have slightly better prospects in terms of opportunities in hospitals/VAs and the like compared to LPCs. SWs can also bill Medicare where LPCs can't without a special authorization from a physician and that depends on what state you live in. Don't know what the rules are for NY.

In either case, you'll be doing 1-2 years of full time post-master's clinical work and an exam in order to be licensed if you go this route. The therapists who do well at the master's level use that time to seek out additional training either through a fellowship or some kind of structured training program to hone in their specialities. The ones who are mediocre or bad do them wherever they can. Just please do the world a favor and don't open a private practice right after graduation. You will not be competent to practice independently at that point in your career and whatever supervision you'd be receiving will likely be inadequate to cover a wide breadth of cases you'd be seeing in such a setting.

I will add a few of things here.

At the doctoral level, NY requires a post-doctoral supervision year, so licensing requires pre-doctoral internship (with no guarantee of staying in NY) and a post-doctoral supervision year before you can be licensed.

At the master's level, I feel that the MSW has a better infrastructure for getting hours completed that many LPC programs. Something to ask about when considering a Masters level program.

NY is the only state to license psychoanalysts that I am aware of currently. I am not sure of the educational requirements, but it is an option you may want to look into.

 

[Sanman]

@summerbabe Very helpful points re: location specificity and potential overkill re: PhD route. All of this resonates. Thank you.

Here's what's shaping up for me: find the right MA/MS program that feels like the best foundational training for the work I want to do. If, along the way, the doctoral path seems necessary or exciting enough to sacrifice certain family stability for, supplement my masters experience with additional research and apply to a breadth of programs. Otherwise, concentrate on additional structured training/supervision post-masters/licensure (and ongoing continued education thereafter) to be the best therapist I can be.


Yep - this is a big point! I appreciate your pointing this out.


Great. What I'm hearing: it's possible to be a great clinician following an MA/MS program, but requires significant investment post-graduation in additional supervision + training / specialization.

Yes, most master's programs will give you the some basic theory and access to the ability to be a licensed psychotherapist. From there, it is up to you to identify how you want to be trained and by whom. There a wealth of opportunities in the northeast ranging from NY psychoanalytic to the Beck Institute in PA and many other places.

 

[R. Matey]

At the master's level, I feel that the MSW has a better infrastructure for getting hours completed that many LPC programs. Something to ask aobut when considering a Masters level program.

Care to expand on this point?

 

[R. Matey]

Great. What I'm hearing: it's possible to be a great clinician following an MA/MS program, but requires significant investment post-graduation in additional supervision + training / specialization.

Add in MSW programs offer more options in terms of billing and postmaster's employment and you got it!

 

[Sanman]

Care to expand on this point?

From the MSWs in NY I know, there are more non-profits, rehabs, MH programs that can supervise post-MSW candidates than the counseling folks (read: places providing a stipend/salary with benefits). Also, I believe that MSWs, PhD/PsyD can all act as supervisors for LCSW candidates. For LPC/LMHCs, I think supervision is more restricted to only other LMHC/LPC folks and often takes place only in private practice setups. I do believe that the LMHC licensure path might be a bit shorter in NY though. I am a bit hazy as it has been a while since I practiced up there.

 

[PsychPhDMama]

I’m a near 50yo year old PhD student in counseling psychology with two young kids, a home, massive commute, partner, and inability to relocate. I have never met or even heard of another student of my demographic in an applied psych PhD program. PsyD, yes.

I completed an online MA (at an accredited institution) prior to starting my PhD and was accepted into my PhD program for the following year. Getting a PhD at this stage of life is like having kids or getting a tattoo on your face. You need to be dead serious about it. It has been grueling and infantalizing, and tough on the entire family. The arcane, anachronistic system is designed for folks in their 20s - not middle aged mothers going through menopause!!!

If I didn’t love what I do (and want to do), I 100% would have dropped out.

I didn’t read all the responses (because I don’t have time to do things like that anymore) and sorry if I’m repeating anything. I would argue that in addition to the baseline pre-reqs, you need research experience and ideally some connection with tenured faculty. You could do both of these things in a MA program.

FWIW, my online masters was excellent. God forbid we should democratize access to education. I was 8 weeks postpartum when I started. Attending an in person program would have been impossible. My cohort had amazing students from around the world and of all ages and walks of life. I learned a ton and many of my peers are now doing well in private practice.

 

[theSteppenwolf]

I’m a near 50yo year old PhD student in counseling psychology with two young kids, a home, massive commute, partner, and inability to relocate. I have never met or even heard of another student of my demographic in an applied psych PhD program. PsyD, yes.

I completed an online MA (at an accredited institution) prior to starting my PhD. To sum it all up, I wouldn’t consider getting a PhD at this stage in life unless there is *absolutely *nothing *else you can imagine doing with yourself. It’s like having kids or getting a tattoo on your face. You need to be dead serious about it. It has been grueling, painful, infuriating and infantalizing. It’s been brutal on the entire family. The arcane, anachronistic system is designed for folks in their 20s - not middle aged mothers going through menopause!!!

If I didn’t love what I do (and want to do), I 100% would have dropped out. I’m currently on a medical leave of absence due to burnout.

I didn’t read all the responses (because I don’t have time to do things like that anymore). I would argue that in addition to the baseline pre-reqs, you need research experience and ideally a connection with a tenured faculty member. You could do both of these things in a MA program.

FWIW, my online masters was excellent. God forbid we should democratize access to education. I was 8 weeks postpartum when I started. Attending an in person program would have been impossible. My cohort had amazing students from around the world and of all ages and walks of life. I learned a ton and many of my peers are now doing well in private practice.

I am also near 50, in a counseling psychology PhD program, with two small children, and a partner. I’m nearing the end of my program (applying for internship next year). Although it was not the plan I wound up completing two masters degrees prior to starting my PhD. I suppose I would echo what PsychPhDMama said about really weighing carefully whether there is something else you could be happy doing. Age and my other demographic factors have made it more difficult than it might have been for an unencumbered younger person for a number of reasons. However, I am also of the opinion that people should realize aspirations that are within reach. It may not make the most financial sense or be the easiest road but if you feel undaunted by that then so be it. As far as we know we get one shot at life.

 

[PsychPhDMama]

I wrote yesterday’s post in haste. While my experience has been difficult, I don’t know how generalizable it is. When I was at the beginning of this journey and asked folks for guidance, almost everyone told me it was impossible, crazy, and to do something different for all imaginable reasons. It felt terrible to hear at the time and I functionally said the same things in my post yesterday. I’m sorry for that. Sometimes the system gets the best of me. It is possible, you can do it, and sounds like you’d have a lot to bring to the field!

 

[Goobernut]

To echo Sanman’s point I also remember something about it being really hard to get an LPC in NY because of the lack of supervisors for licensure. I also remembered something about the MSW route was also different in NY than in other states, but I don’t remember how. Search here on the board because I’m sure that’s where I originally read it.

I ended up going MSW route for all the reasons that posters have described here. In my state almost all LPCs are in private practice. Social work has a really strong presence here and it makes it harder to earn a higher income as an LPC. I’m currently faculty (I see pts and realllly light teaching duties) in an academic medical center. Truthfully I wouldn’t have this opportunity if I was an LPC. I’m in the Department of Psychiatry and we won’t hire LPCs. I’ve heard in other states culture is flipped, so definitely please check this dynamic out for the state you plan to practice in.

Also as an additional note, I really am just as happy as a clam that I went this route. I do acknowledge the shortcomings of psychotherapy education at the masters level and really question it being a good idea to be licensed at this level. However, personally I’m super happy with my disjointed career path. I’m getting paid really well, I’m involved in education and my co-workers are lovely. maybe I’m an outlier, but just wanted to present long term anecdotal evidence that getting an MSW isn’t the worst thing you can do.

I’m also getting a DSW (doctorate in social work) so I can tip my toe further in education. My route is definitely not traditional, but does revolve around low cost state school tuition. I won’t have any debt (or minimal) when I graduate.

From the MSWs in NY I know, there are more non-profits, rehabs, MH programs that can supervise post-MSW candidates than the counseling folks (read: places providing a stipend/salary with benefits). Also, I believe that MSWs, PhD/PsyD can all act as supervisors for LCSW candidates. For LPC/LMHCs, I think supervision is more restricted to only other LMHC/LPC folks and often takes place only in private practice setups. I do believe that the LMHC licensure path might be a bit shorter in NY though. I am a bit hazy as it has been a while since I practiced up there.

 

[ClinicalABA]

... Honestly, one reason I'm most interested in a terminal MA/MS program is that it would give me the option to pursue licensure after graduation in the event that I determine a doctorate path is not right for me/my family/our circumstances....

It's important to recognize that the coursework you do in a licensable terminal masters, as well as the years of supervised hours you do to obtain a master's level licensure, will likely not count at all (especially the supervision hours) towards the doctoral degree or licensure. At best, you may be able to waive a course or two (at least that's how it was in my program- student's with a more academically focused MA in Psych in rare cases got out of one year's worth of courses). Social Work/Mental Health Counseling are best viewed as totally separate fields of study- kind of like how the coursework and supervision to become a nurse don't buy you out of much should you later go to med school to become a physician. While pursuing an terminal and licensable masters may be a viable route in some instances, it basically will add 3 years to your education and supervision (including the tuition payments and opportunity costs), and you'd still be looking at 4-5 years of doctoral education and another 1-2 years of pre- and post-doctoral supervised clinical work to get the doctoral degree and license.

 

[Brown2002]

I wrote yesterday’s post in haste. While my experience has been difficult, I don’t know how generalizable it is. When I was at the beginning of this journey and asked folks for guidance, almost everyone told me it was impossible, crazy, and to do something different for all imaginable reasons. It felt terrible to hear at the time and I functionally said the same things in my post yesterday. I’m sorry for that. Sometimes the system gets the best of me. It is possible, you can do it, and sounds like you’d have a lot to bring to the field!

@PsychPhDMama , I appreciate this vote of confidence, thank you. I'm curious: what type of online masters did you pursue prior to your PhD? Was it a masters geared toward licensure or did you know out the gate you planned to enter PhD programs after graduation?

 

[PsychPhDMama]

It was an applied masters. I could have completed the required clinical hours and opened a practice as an LMHC. I was very focused on the PhD coming out of the gate, but knew I’d also have a meaningful career if I stopped at the masters. If you haven’t already, check out the licensure requirements in your state.