Magnesium C section

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jeesapeesa

anesthesiologist southern california
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hi folks. had a patient with gestational hypertension (no evidence of proteinuria) who had Mg running as per OB service. pt was brought to the OR for fetal intolerance/decels. spinal was placed and by this time i had stopped the Mg infusion since i didn't think pt had preeclampsia and there was no need for seizure prophylaxis. anyways the OB was not happy i had stopped the infusion and told me that the patient was still high risk for seizures. i know this is true for pre-eclamptics but not for gestational hypertensives. do you guys usually keep Mg running during the sections for these type of patients? or for pre-eclamptics?
 
hi folks. had a patient with gestational hypertension (no evidence of proteinuria) who had Mg running as per OB service. pt was brought to the OR for fetal intolerance/decels. spinal was placed and by this time i had stopped the Mg infusion since i didn't think pt had preeclampsia and there was no need for seizure prophylaxis. anyways the OB was not happy i had stopped the infusion and told me that the patient was still high risk for seizures. i know this is true for pre-eclamptics but not for gestational hypertensives. do you guys usually keep Mg running during the sections for these type of patients? or for pre-eclamptics?

keep it running unless otherwise contraindicated. you dont have to have protein in urine to be diagnosed with pre eclampsia. we dont do it for just gestational hypertension, but perhaps the patient had a headache and they changed it to pre eclampsia or something
 
hi folks. had a patient with gestational hypertension (no evidence of proteinuria) who had Mg running as per OB service. pt was brought to the OR for fetal intolerance/decels. spinal was placed and by this time i had stopped the Mg infusion since i didn't think pt had preeclampsia and there was no need for seizure prophylaxis. anyways the OB was not happy i had stopped the infusion and told me that the patient was still high risk for seizures. i know this is true for pre-eclamptics but not for gestational hypertensives. do you guys usually keep Mg running during the sections for these type of patients? or for pre-eclamptics?

Was patient complaining of visual issues, headache, RUQ pain? Even without proteinuria, if they have the above, that can give them diagnosis of pre eclampsia with severe features.

Also if BPs have been extremely difficult to control and new onset, makes me suspicious for pre eclampsia and would have a low threshold for magnesium even if labs normal as there could be a delay in the land trending.

To have the patient seize is a disaster and a physician would get nailed by any jury and there would be no shortage of expert witnesses who would bury said physician .

I'm not making it seem as though practicing defensive medicine is the norm. Although magnesium isn't benign by any means, if properly dosed and followed, patient should be fine.

But to be honest, if stopped for a c section, patient should be fine. It's only ~45 minutes. Not sure what the half life is off the top of my head.
 
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hi folks. had a patient with gestational hypertension (no evidence of proteinuria) who had Mg running as per OB service. pt was brought to the OR for fetal intolerance/decels. spinal was placed and by this time i had stopped the Mg infusion since i didn't think pt had preeclampsia and there was no need for seizure prophylaxis. anyways the OB was not happy i had stopped the infusion and told me that the patient was still high risk for seizures. i know this is true for pre-eclamptics but not for gestational hypertensives. do you guys usually keep Mg running during the sections for these type of patients? or for pre-eclamptics?
Would have done the same, just don't tell the OB
 
Yeah OB knowledge of even really basic pharmacology is outstandingly poor...

But still mag in regular doses is a really benign drug. We learn all the numbers for toxic concentrations but Has anyone ever seen an overdose?
So I'd probably just keep it going. It's the path of least resistance that gets me sitting in my chair hassle free fastest
 
hi folks. had a patient with gestational hypertension (no evidence of proteinuria) who had Mg running as per OB service. pt was brought to the OR for fetal intolerance/decels. spinal was placed and by this time i had stopped the Mg infusion since i didn't think pt had preeclampsia and there was no need for seizure prophylaxis. anyways the OB was not happy i had stopped the infusion and told me that the patient was still high risk for seizures. i know this is true for pre-eclamptics but not for gestational hypertensives. do you guys usually keep Mg running during the sections for these type of patients? or for pre-eclamptics?
Did you start the drug? No, right. Why are you stopping it without discussing it first then? It's common sense nothing to do with preeclampsia or not.
 
hi folks. had a patient with gestational hypertension (no evidence of proteinuria) who had Mg running as per OB service.
Who applied the label of "gestational hypertension?"

Proteinuria isn't a necessary part of the diagnostic criteria for preE any more. New onset HTN with thrombocytopenia, renal or hepatic dysfunction, neuro symptoms, or pulmonary edema = sufficient to diagnose preE.
 
hi folks. had a patient with gestational hypertension (no evidence of proteinuria) who had Mg running as per OB service. pt was brought to the OR for fetal intolerance/decels. spinal was placed and by this time i had stopped the Mg infusion since i didn't think pt had preeclampsia and there was no need for seizure prophylaxis. anyways the OB was not happy i had stopped the infusion and told me that the patient was still high risk for seizures. i know this is true for pre-eclamptics but not for gestational hypertensives. do you guys usually keep Mg running during the sections for these type of patients? or for pre-eclamptics?


Are you generally in the habit of discontinuing medication that was not ordered by you? Or disregard the diagnosis made by the treating physician. At the very least a discussion should have occurred if you disagreed with the diagnosis because in the end if there was a seizure, the ultimate question would be why was she not on magnesium?

It is now current practice that women with who meet criteria for gHTN and have severe range blood pressures (>160/110) get magnesium regardless of whether they have any other signs or symptoms or lab criteria for PEC as they have similar rates of seizure to people with actual preeclampsia.


That being said, some people believe a continuous infusion is necessary for seizure prophylaxis regardless of the actual mag level. There are some that feel that stopping meds during cesarean may minimize atony, which makes the same amount of sense as the preceding statement.
 
Are you generally in the habit of discontinuing medication that was not ordered by you?

In the OR yes. You can do every(stupid)thing you want on the floor but in the OR i'm in charge: you want 10U push of pitocin; you'll get 3U, you want muscle relaxant to close the skin you get saline etc..
 
Are you generally in the habit of discontinuing medication that was not ordered by you? Or disregard the diagnosis made by the treating physician. At the very least a discussion should have occurred if you disagreed with the diagnosis because in the end if there was a seizure, the ultimate question would be why was she not on magnesium?

It is now current practice that women with who meet criteria for gHTN and have severe range blood pressures (>160/110) get magnesium regardless of whether they have any other signs or symptoms or lab criteria for PEC as they have similar rates of seizure to people with actual preeclampsia.


That being said, some people believe a continuous infusion is necessary for seizure prophylaxis regardless of the actual mag level. There are some that feel that stopping meds during cesarean may minimize atony, which makes the same amount of sense as the preceding statement.

When they're in the OR, the anesthesiologist is also a treating physician. If you wanted a floor nurse at the head of the bed, feel free to keep the patient in L&D although they may not be as well equipped to deal with the 3 L EBL.
 
hi folks. had a patient with gestational hypertension (no evidence of proteinuria) who had Mg running as per OB service. pt was brought to the OR for fetal intolerance/decels. spinal was placed and by this time i had stopped the Mg infusion since i didn't think pt had preeclampsia and there was no need for seizure prophylaxis. anyways the OB was not happy i had stopped the infusion and told me that the patient was still high risk for seizures. i know this is true for pre-eclamptics but not for gestational hypertensives. do you guys usually keep Mg running during the sections for these type of patients? or for pre-eclamptics?

Unless you have a specific concern with the drug (which it doesn't sound like you do) why in the world would you stop it without at least checking with the OB?
 
In the OR yes. You can do every(stupid)thing you want on the floor but in the OR i'm in charge: you want 10U push of pitocin; you'll get 3U, you want muscle relaxant to close the skin you get saline etc..

When they're in the OR, the anesthesiologist is also a treating physician. If you wanted a floor nurse at the head of the bed, feel free to keep the patient in L&D although they may not be as well equipped to deal with the 3 L EBL.

Certainly you are also the treating physician in the ORbut why in the world would someone discontinue a Med started by a doc out of the OR on someone who is ultimately their patient without at least having the courtesy to discuss your concerns.
 
In the OR yes. You can do every(stupid)thing you want on the floor but in the OR i'm in charge: you want 10U push of pitocin; you'll get 3U, you want muscle relaxant to close the skin you get saline etc..
Why 3 units oxytocin instead of 10?
 
Unless you have a specific concern with the drug (which it doesn't sound like you do) why in the world would you stop it without at least checking with the OB?

Devil’s advocate....but neonatal hypotonia? Sounds like an urgent csxn and a potentially down baby already. May as well do what you can to minimize anything iatrogenically making baby worse.

I realize that with the time course you might not alter fetal Mg concentrations much anyway, and I’d def have the conversation with the OB.
 
I probably would have stopped it as well in all honesty. The 20-45 minutes spent in the section wouldn't be enough to decrease to sub therapeutic levels assuming the mother was initially in therapeutic range.

If the case converted to general then I would definitely stop it since it would only confound assessment of NMB.

Definitely get high risk pedi in the room if the mag was at a serious dose. T
 
Devil’s advocate....but neonatal hypotonia? Sounds like an urgent csxn and a potentially down baby already. May as well do what you can to minimize anything iatrogenically making baby worse.

I realize that with the time course you might not alter fetal Mg concentrations much anyway, and I’d def have the conversation with the OB.

1/2 life of Magnesium IV is about 5 hours. So, stopping it at the start of the c section should have no impact on the patient.

Clinical pharmacokinetic properties of magnesium sulphate in women with pre‐eclampsia and eclampsia
 
Why 3 units oxytocin instead of 10?

I do the same, 3-5 units is effective dose.
Our pharmacy mix our oxytocin 10 units in 250cc bag as first dose after umbilical blood drawn and then continue an extra 10 units in 1000ml after.

When I only give max half of the 250cc bag for 3-5 units the labor nurses see the incomplete bag and panic saying we need to give all of it because that's how we do it here. When I explain that more does not equal better they ignore it and run the bag wide open in recovery area. OBs haven't complained of uncontrollable bleeding and closure goes as planned, but OBs look at the half empty bag as well and wonder all the pit isn't in.
 
Devil’s advocate....but neonatal hypotonia? Sounds like an urgent csxn and a potentially down baby already. May as well do what you can to minimize anything iatrogenically making baby worse.

I realize that with the time course you might not alter fetal Mg concentrations much anyway, and I’d def have the conversation with the OB.

This is dangerous logic as the mother is your patient.

As in most areas of medicine I think actual dialogue between physicians is universally beneficial though sadly absent.
 
I read an article on this saying loading dose needed is only up to 3units. With infusion continued. Here we dont bolus, we just run 20U /L infusion wide open after baby out. Not sure if there is a good study out there recommending infusion rates and after how much is no added contraction
 
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The dose of oxytocin required to generate satisfactory uterine tone after delivery is lower than previously thought (see Chapter 26 ). In a study of nonlaboring women undergoing elective cesarean delivery, the ED 90 of bolus dose oxytocin for satisfactory uterine tone within 3 minutes of delivery was 0.35 international units (IU) ; The ED 90 was approximately 3 IU in laboring women undergoing cesarean delivery for labor arrest after labor augmentation with oxytocin. The ED 90 of oxytocin administered via infusion without a bolus dose in nonlaboring women was approximately 0.3 IU/min for 1 hour. Munn et al. randomized women undergoing a cesarean delivery during labor to receive a prophylactic infusion of oxytocin at 2.67 IU/min or 0.33 IU/min for 30 minutes after delivery; the higher dose was associated with less need for secondary uterotonics (19% versus 39%, respectively; P < .001); however, the high dose may be associated with clinically significant tachycardia and hypotension (see later discussion).

Oxytocin is rapidly metabolized by hepatic oxytocinases and cleared in the urine and bile, resulting in a half-life of less than 6 minutes. Consequently, a prolonged intravenous infusion may be more effective than bolus administration in preventing uterine atony. In an international randomized, controlled trial, Sheehan et al. found that the addition of a 4-hour maintenance infusion of 0.17 IU/min (after an initial 5-IU bolus dose) decreased the need for secondary uterotonics compared with a 5-IU bolus dose alone. King et al. studied women at high risk for postcesarean uterine atony and demonstrated that administering a 5-IU bolus of oxytocin before a 1.3-IU/min infusion did not provide benefit compared with an infusion without a bolus. Administration of phenylephrine with oxytocin can mitigate the adverse hemodynamic consequences of oxytocin, but phenylephrine may not be necessary as long as an oxytocin bolus dose is avoided and the infusion rate is maintained below 1 IU/min, the threshold at which hemodynamic consequences become apparent

Data demonstrating lower oxytocin dose requirements than previously assumed and awareness of the dangers of high-dose administration call into question the common practice of injecting 10 to 40 IU of oxytocin into a 1-liter crystalloid solution and infusing the solution at an unspecified rate, often “wide open” (i.e., gravity-dependent flow). The doses administered with this method may approach those achieved with bolus administration. At my institution, my colleagues and I administer prophylactic oxytocin at a rate of 0.3 IU/min (the ED 90 ) and increase the rate to 0.6 IU/min (twice the ED 90 ) if there is inadequate response. The maximum beneficial oxytocin infusion rate to treat persistent uterine atony is unknown..

From Chestnut's
 
Ridiculous that we used to give 40 units back in residency
 
0.35 units oxytocin anyone? Anyone read that article?

No. doses less than 0.5 units are not much better than placebo. I'd stick with 3-5 units IV at this time. Alternatively, avoid the bolus dose of 3-5 units and just start an infusion; at my gig we do both (bolus dose plus infusion):

"Our results indicate that adequate UT can be achieved with small bolus doses (0.5–3 units) of oxytocin in patients undergoing elective CD. We also observed a surprisingly high prevalence of adequate UT (73%) at 2 min in the placebo group. Although the ED50 and ED95 of oxytocin could not be calculated using logistic regression analysis, the results of this study suggest that the use of 5 units oxytocin as a standard dose to achieve adequate UT during elective CD is excessive and re-evaluation of dosing requirement is necessary.

Patients undergoing CD are at increased risk of obstetric haemorrhage,9 and uterine atony has been shown to be the most common aetiology (>30% patients undergoing CD).9,10 Oxytocin is commonly administered after vaginal delivery and CD to reduce the risk of postpartum haemorrhage.11 Despite widespread use, there are limited data to guide optimal oxytocin dosing for patients undergoing elective CD. A recent UK survey reported that a slow i.v. bolus of 5 units oxytocin is commonly used by obstetricians and anaesthetists (86% and 92%, respectively) during CD.4 However, safety and efficacy data are lacking to support the routine use of a 5 units bolus of oxytocin as a standard of care during elective CD.

A previous study by Carvalho and colleagues6 estimated the ED90 of oxytocin to be 0.35 units in patients undergoing elective CD. However, Carvalho's study was single-blinded, oxytocin was administered during delivery of the fetal shoulder, and spontaneous-assisted delivery of the placenta was performed without uterine massage. It is possible that the dose–response of oxytocin occurs independent of these variations in surgical technique."
 
I read an article on this saying loading dose needed is only up to 3units. With infusion continued. Here we dont bolus, we just run 20U /L infusion wide open after baby out. Not sure if there is a good study out there recommending infusion rates and after how much is no added contraction

I used to bolus 10 units IV and put 40 units of Pit in the 1 liter bag. Now, I bolus 5 units (diluted in a 20 ml syringe) and put 20 units in the bag. The peer reviewed evidence strongly suggests that a bolus dose isn't necessary and we are over dosing the pitocin.

That said, we have decades of experience with bolusing 10 units of pitocin in OB. No morbidity or mortality as a result that I'm aware of. Sure, some hypotension which is easily treated with pressors.

My experiences with the 5 units of pitocin IV followed by the infusion shows that the hypotension is indeed less and well-tolerated by the vast majority of patients. IMHO, the safety and efficacy of the 5 unit dosage is well-established in clinical practice here in the USA and across the pond.
 
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