Making MCAT pass/fail

[bananafish94]

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I'm sorry but if you put things into perspective, you're never going to be able to take 6+ months off from life again to pass an exam.

As somebody currently preparing for Step 1, this is most assuredly not true.

 

[OchemOficionado]

I don't agree with your statement about how "they might need to work non-medical jobs to support themselves". There is no reason why they can't get a medically related job that kills two birds with one stone (you get clinical experience and get paid).

One reason is they may need to take a higher paying job to support themselves or help their family. This is especially common among those from a lower SES.

Everything else you’ve comments on this thread is on point!

 

[Potentia Virtus]

I agree with this 100%. I don't care that WashU has a sky high MCAT average/median, but I do care that the average MCAT of applicants to WashU have a 504 or something like that. I don't know how they can take these applicant's money knowing full well that they have 0 intention of ever even looking at their app. Be honest with the applicants at your expectations.

Is it the schools fault or the applicants fault for being stupid?

 

[hebrewBAMmer]

Is it the schools fault or the applicants fault for being stupid?

A mix of both. Applicants should know that wash u has a high score median, but the school consistently preaches that you can get in with a low MCAT score (for example: )

" we have a wide range of scores from students. "

"We try to use a holistic approach for reviewing applications"

"In 2017, we will matriculate students with MCAT scores in a wide range (506 to 528). "

Student asked: "With a 506 MCAT, is it even worth applying? " Response: "My immediate reaction to this question is yes, it is definitely worth applying. Last year’s accepted MCAT score range was 507-528, and your score does fall on the lower end of this spectrum. BUT it is important to note that there is NO hard cut-off for MCAT scores to be considered for acceptance at WashU (confirmed by Dean Ratts sitting across the table from me). "

When the school is literally saying you should apply when you have a 506, I have a hard time believing it's 100% on the applicant being stupid

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

A mix of both. Applicants should know that wash u has a high score median, but the school consistently preaches that you can get in with a low MCAT score (for example: )

" we have a wide range of scores from students. "

"We try to use a holistic approach for reviewing applications"

"In 2017, we will matriculate students with MCAT scores in a wide range (506 to 528). "

Student asked: "With a 506 MCAT, is it even worth applying? " Response: "My immediate reaction to this question is yes, it is definitely worth applying. Last year’s accepted MCAT score range was 507-528, and your score does fall on the lower end of this spectrum. BUT it is important to note that there is NO hard cut-off for MCAT scores to be considered for acceptance at WashU (confirmed by Dean Ratts sitting across the table from me). "

When the school is literally saying you should apply when you have a 506, I have a hard time believing it's 100% on the applicant being stupid

This.

 

[SuaveCardigans]

A mix of both. Applicants should know that wash u has a high score median, but the school consistently preaches that you can get in with a low MCAT score (for example: )

" we have a wide range of scores from students. "

"We try to use a holistic approach for reviewing applications"

"In 2017, we will matriculate students with MCAT scores in a wide range (506 to 528). "

Student asked: "With a 506 MCAT, is it even worth applying? " Response: "My immediate reaction to this question is yes, it is definitely worth applying. Last year’s accepted MCAT score range was 507-528, and your score does fall on the lower end of this spectrum. BUT it is important to note that there is NO hard cut-off for MCAT scores to be considered for acceptance at WashU (confirmed by Dean Ratts sitting across the table from me). "

When the school is literally saying you should apply when you have a 506, I have a hard time believing it's 100% on the applicant being stupid

Are you saying you want schools like this to have hard cutoffs?

My impression is that the people who get into WashU with a 507 have overcome some serious adversity in their life (low SES/tough home life, etc) and having hard cutoffs would close doors for them. They have very valuable perspectives to offer that isnt measured on the MCAT

If you want more diversity (race, SES, etc) in medicine, and in top medical schools, you need holistic review.

 

[hebrewBAMmer]

Are you saying you want schools like this to have hard cutoffs?

No, that isn't remotely what I said. I was only responding to the part where someone suggest it's stupidity on the part of the applicant to apply to a school like Wash U with a low MCAT when it'll likely be a waste of money despite the school itself actively saying to apply like you have a reasonable chance.

 

[SuaveCardigans]

No, that isn't remotely what I said. I was only responding to the part where someone suggest it's stupidity on the part of the applicant to apply to a school like Wash U with a low MCAT when it'll likely be a waste of money despite the school itself actively saying to apply like you have a reasonable chance.

So you think a school should have holistic review but then turn around and post on reddit “Dont apply with XYZ MCAT?”

 

[hebrewBAMmer]

So you think a school should have holistic review but then turn around and post on reddit “Dont apply with XYZ MCAT?”

Once again, no (and try not to put words in my mouth.) It's fine they post to apply but they should be real and give examples of what people with very low mcat scores have done to gain acceptance, not just sit there and say apply but give something concrete on how one can overcome a lower mcat score. Essentially, be more transparent.

 

[SuaveCardigans]

Once again, no (and try not to put words in my mouth.) It's fine they post to apply but they should be real and give examples of what people with very low mcat scores have done to gain acceptance, not just sit there and say apply but give something concrete on how one can overcome a lower mcat score. Essentially, be more transparent.

Im all for more transparency in med school admissions, but I think the reality is its a messy process that doesnt work itself out easily. So most of the time you end up with canned answers about “too many qualified applicants” and whatnot.

I see what youre saying now, and Im down with it because it is frustrating as an applicant, but I dont see it changing.

 

[hebrewBAMmer]

Im all for more transparency in med school admissions, but I think the reality is its a messy process that doesnt work itself out easily. So most of the time you end up with canned answers about “too many qualified applicants” and whatnot.

I see what youre saying now, and Im down with it because it is frustrating as an applicant, but I dont see it changing.

Oh for sure I don't see it changing, but glad we're on the same page now 👍

 

[Mr. Babe]

Terrible idea. Holistic application reviews are on a school to school basis. Each school has the freedom to determine how they want to assess applicants and that will never change. Changing the MCAT to a pass/fail test will not make this process change.

 

[Med Ed]

The AAMC has stated that a score of 500 on the MCAT displays the ability to handle medical school coursework/exams. The AAMC emphasized to adcoms that 500 is a good score, yet several schools will not give serious consideration to your application if you have a 500 MCAT score. MSAR recently published the new admissions data, and several of these schools have median MCAT scores greater than 515 with some even as high as 521 at several schools. This trend of higher and higher MCAT scores year after year is only going to produce applicants who work like machines to attain a high MCAT and this is leading to a lot of needless stress. Pretty soon, you'll need a 518+ MCAT score to get into an MD school and DO schools MCAT scores will go up to around 510. This should not be happening.
So I am proposing that the AAMC make the MCAT pass/fail, where if you have gotten a score equivalent to a 500, you will pass and the only thing medical schools will see is Pass. I believe that this would make the admissions process much more fair to the applicants and it would allow medical schools to actually start using their "holistic" approach instead of going for applicants with the highest MCAT and GPA. This would lead to a much more well rounded applicant and would greatly benefit the mental state of pre-meds. I welcome all thoughts on the matter.

These kinds of things always backfire, because even if the MCAT were to be made P/F then schools would simply start looking for proxies of test-taking acumen. Applicants from schools with high average SAT scores would get a leg up, for example, and the system would take on a new type of distortion.

 

[Dr. Meliodas]

One reason is they may need to take a higher paying job to support themselves or help their family. This is especially common among those from a lower SES.

Everything else you’ve comments on this thread is on point!

Fair point, I definetly shouldn't have said no reason not to get a medically/or research related job. From my experience those have been the jobs that offered me the most after undergrad and after my Masters.

 

[DelayedGratification]

As somebody currently preparing for Step 1, this is most assuredly not true.

Are you trying to say that you have been prepping for step 1 for 6 months or have been prepping for step 1 with no other commitments(school, work, etc) for 6 months?

If its the latter, that is most assuredly not the norm.

 

[bananafish94]

Are you trying to say that you have been prepping for step 1 for 6 months or have been prepping for step 1 with no other commitments(school, work, etc) for 6 months?

If its the latter, that is most assuredly not the norm.

I was being slightly facetious, but yes there were elements of Step studying in my schedule six months out from the exam, obviously not anything nearly as intense as what I've been doing for the last couple of months. And that is all with schoolwork. Even for Step 1, six months of straight studying would be overkill. Do people really study that much for the MCAT? I took the old one so maybe I'm just out of the loop but I remember starting in July for an October test date and I was able to do that along with school and research work.

 

[Lawpy]

The AAMC has stated that a score of 500 on the MCAT displays the ability to handle medical school coursework/exams. The AAMC emphasized to adcoms that 500 is a good score, yet several schools will not give serious consideration to your application if you have a 500 MCAT score. MSAR recently published the new admissions data, and several of these schools have median MCAT scores greater than 515 with some even as high as 521 at several schools. This trend of higher and higher MCAT scores year after year is only going to produce applicants who work like machines to attain a high MCAT and this is leading to a lot of needless stress. Pretty soon, you'll need a 518+ MCAT score to get into an MD school and DO schools MCAT scores will go up to around 510. This should not be happening.
So I am proposing that the AAMC make the MCAT pass/fail, where if you have gotten a score equivalent to a 500, you will pass and the only thing medical schools will see is Pass. I believe that this would make the admissions process much more fair to the applicants and it would allow medical schools to actually start using their "holistic" approach instead of going for applicants with the highest MCAT and GPA. This would lead to a much more well rounded applicant and would greatly benefit the mental state of pre-meds. I welcome all thoughts on the matter.

It's important to realize that applicants with high GPA and high MCAT scores also have very compelling applications and narratives. It's incorrect and misleading to assume that high stat applicants are one-dimensional, academic robots.

Also, making the MCAT pass/fail is a terrible idea that forces adcoms to become even more subjective and rely heavily on undergrad name to stratify applicants. Instead, the MCAT should be a one-shot deal. As @LizzyM suggested earlier, setting the pass threshold as 500 and allowing only for retakes for scores < 500 is reasonable. The Step exams are a one-shot deal and medical students are able to deal with it. The MCAT should function the same way.

Medical school admissions is driven by numbers because numbers are an objective way to evaluate and assess applicants. Activities, experiences and narrative all serve as additional complements to academic performance.

It's definitely fine to worry about admissions becoming more selective and competition becoming more tougher. Making the MCAT pass/fail will only further worsen this problem.

 

[Goro]

A mix of both. Applicants should know that wash u has a high score median, but the school consistently preaches that you can get in with a low MCAT score (for example: )

" we have a wide range of scores from students. "

"We try to use a holistic approach for reviewing applications"

"In 2017, we will matriculate students with MCAT scores in a wide range (506 to 528). "

Student asked: "With a 506 MCAT, is it even worth applying? " Response: "My immediate reaction to this question is yes, it is definitely worth applying. Last year’s accepted MCAT score range was 507-528, and your score does fall on the lower end of this spectrum. BUT it is important to note that there is NO hard cut-off for MCAT scores to be considered for acceptance at WashU (confirmed by Dean Ratts sitting across the table from me). "

When the school is literally saying you should apply when you have a 506, I have a hard time believing it's 100% on the applicant being stupid

It's on applicants to learn that the school median is 520 (and understand what medians are), and not engage in wishful thinking that they'll be the outlier. Still, shame on the school for encouraging people who have no business applying.

And for the last time, "holistic review" doesn't mean "we accept anybody"

 

[Goro]

These kinds of things always backfire, because even if the MCAT were to be made P/F then schools would simply start looking for proxies of test-taking acumen. .

Another way of saying this is "no good deed goes unpunished!"

 

[ekmf27050]

Actually, there is a simpler way. Its a matter of roughly conceptualizing the timeframe each candidate had for completing his academics, EC's and MCAT. If he took 4 years to complete undergrad, get in good clinical and volunteerism plus research and a 515 MCAT, he should be chosen over someone who took six years because they needed a ton of time to study for MCAT.

I think this is already done when looking at course load: 8 credits a semester over six years will almost necessarily look worse than 16 credits a semester over three and a half, even if the former candidate had a few extra points on his MCAT.

Conceptualizing timeframes and weighting them borders on impossible- it's like each applicant getting an AAMC shadow from freshman year on. I took seven years to get into medical school. I played D1 ball in college, and couldn't do anything beyond pre-reqs. I only wanted to apply once, and make it count, so I planned out three gap years. Crushing the MCAT was necessary given my low GPA. Why did I study 6 months for it? Because I knew what I needed to do, and arranged my life to make it work. I worked for 35 hours a week, studied for the MCAT for 35 hours a week, and dealt with a brutal surgery and recovery during this time that added on 8 hours minimum of rehab per week. For six months. Should my stellar MCAT be discounted over someone who didn't play ball in college and finished everything up in 4 years?

 

[deleted446889]

I think part of the problem is that its become the norm to dedicate 6+ months of your life in order to do well on the MCAT.

I'm sorry but if you put things into perspective, you're never going to be able to take 6+ months off from life again to pass an exam. There should be more scrutiny placed on HOW you get your mcat score, rather than just getting the score. I think someone working full time and scoring 505 is very different than someone doing nothing but mcat prep for 6 months and scoring 515

Until schools start doing that, premeds will continue to feel the stress to take a year off and score 515+ at no cost.

This is a misguided line of thinking, because it's not how the MCAT works. The MCAT does a great job of doing what it was designed to do - evaluate the knowledge and scientific reasoning that you have developed since freshman year.

520+ scorers don't just pop out in 6-9 months like babies. They are those who put in the effort since day 1, not cramming through college but truly learning, understanding, internalising, and applying scientific knowledge by doing research.

I'm one of those people who slacked off in undergrad and took off 6 months to take the MCAT. I genuinely believed that I could score 520+ as I had all the time, resources, and motivation anyone could need. I was wrong. I did pretty good, but didn't come close to 520. I was always close to perfect in CARS as well, so I can say it's not that I didn't have the right mind for the test. It was my foundation of knowledge that held me back. The kind that can't be learned from a prep book in a few months. Believe it or not, all those C's and B's in Chem, Physics, etc meant something.

There's a good reason most 520+ scores are accompanied by strong GPAs. I'm not salty though. The experience gave me a lot of respect for the MCAT and how well designed it is, and also for those top scorers who clearly did things right throughout college. It's motivating for me because I hope to put in maximum effort in medical school from day 1 this time.

Aldol wrote a great piece on exactly this topic. Aldol16's Guide to 520+ on the MCAT

The MCAT is hands down the best thing out there to evaluate applicants. There's no need for foolish measures like evaluating how long someone studied for it. All that is already built into the MCAT.

 

[DrRiker]

Bold idea inbound:

Restructure premed curriculum, with an established track for premed students. Complete 2-3 years med course prerequisites, take MCAT. If successful, continue on to 1-2 years evaluated clinical and community service internships. If unsuccessful, mandatory consult with advising to consider shifting trajectory or extending curriculum to increase preparedness for medical school. Include longitudinal research project. Tuition-paying interns could staff local hospitals in nurse aide type roles (cheap and motivated labor for the hospital). Could be coupled into an 8 year BS/MD program, with admission to MD program pending GPA, MCAT, and internship evals. Failed applicants may be well prepared for accelerated BSN programs or MPH, etc. Experience could still be obtained elsewhere for us career changers.

 

[mistafab]

Step 1 was made to see if a future doctor has met the minimum competence necessary to move on in their education. But, like the MCAT, it was the only test that truly gave programs the ability to compare applicants from different schools on a common measure.

Someone can get all A’s at an easy school where they might have gotten B+ or B average with tougher courses. A 505 MCAT however is a 505 MCAT. So now the MCAT is the de facto yardstick by which all applicants who meet certain gpa requirements are compared.

 

[BombsAway]

I've been on a somewhat similar wavelength as OP for quite some time on this site. My position differs in some key ways OP might want to consider though:

1. I don't care (so much) that some schools want 520 students and other schools are "less picky". I do care that 50% of applications to any school can be thrown out right away because every single one of those applicants does not have any kind of realistic shot at that medical school or medical school in general. This strikes me as a somewhat slimy way for medical schools to generate a small revenue stream from misinformed, misguided, or ignorant applicants.

Schools should be honest about their expectations. If you don't want anyone below 515 in your class, don't accept applications from anyone with less than a 515 and make that knowledge perfectly clear on AMCAS or your webpage. Save our time and yours, adcoms. Afraid you're going to lose those "diamonds in the rough"? I'm sure there are more than enough polished diamonds in the applicant pool that nobody will really notice and those "diamonds in the rough" will get a chance to shine at schools with less stringent expectations. What I'm advocating for is a transparent P/F line for each school, decided by the school itself. After that bar, MCAT scores simply arent considered (erased, even, from the application entirely) and the admissions committee must attempt to be more holistic.

2. Consider the consequences of creating such a system. The reality is that most applicants are very similar, even those at the very top of the LizzyM foodchain (or, as @LizzyM knows them, the students she actually meets at the interview). Implementing a P/F bar for academic metrics on a largely homogenous applicant pool will not necessarily mean that admissions becomes more holistic; rather, it might mean that admissions becomes more arbitrary with undergrad pedigree and ECs becoming more important. A gap year might become even more common than it already is because it might become too difficult to truly differentiate yourself during the undergrad years alone. Gap years are already becoming more common, but we should think as to whether we should make an already long training pipeline even longer and potentially more expensive.

Personally, I think the differences between a 515 and 523 will be ultimately miniscule in terms of their ability to succeed in medical school, match, and eventually practice medicine (and I believe the research bears this out as well), but there are a significant number of schools where that gap is the difference between going from the printer to the shredder or an adcom's desk. We should all feel at least a little embarrassed about how ridiculous this process can be.

Ultimately, no change at the admissions level will really change the quality or kinds of doctors we produce. Those changes happen at the level of undergraduate and graduate medical education, incentives and reimbursements schemes for practicing physicians, debt financing mechanisms, costs of education. That is, material conditions within and without the physician workforce determine the kinds and quality of physicians we produce, not admissions. The job of admissions is essentially to check that someone has the constitution and base aptitude for medicine, is capable of succeeding in medical school, and is a dependable individual. We should, however, continue to ask ourselves how we can go about rationally gatekeeping medicine and I'd like it for programs to be more honest than they are with their potential students.

WSU does as close to what you're talking about as i've seen. They set a GPA/MCAT thresholds. If you meet the threshold they blind themselves to your stats until after a final decision is made. Pretty cool, IMO.

 

[Batracho]

I don't see why MCAT needs to be pass/fail. It allows adcoms to compare ppl from different backgrounds and colleges to one another. I think it can be made smth like 30+ is pass, but still report numbers.