Making quite an impression on the residents during rotation...

[dbarth101]

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You really don't get it. We're criticizing residencies because we believe that they devalue the PharmD degree and are a scam. If you saw your friend calling a guy back who claimed to be a Nigerian prince who needs to deposit some of his fortune in your friend's bank account, would you try and stop him?

I disagree. As aforementioned, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there is seemingly a lot to be gained by a residency. With that being said, all residencies are definitely not created equal. Some may be more beneficial than others, but that's the risk you take. It's unfortunate that you think it devalues the PharmD degree, and who knows, you could be correct. However, there is definitely an immense amount of knowledge that is gained by doing a residency that you may not receive otherwise, and that makes it attractive to me.

 

[confettiflyer]

I'll likely do a residency because I want to be a clinical pharmacist, but in all honesty the scam aspect is in the form of no additional compensation for training received. Clinical pharms don't make more (and sometimes make less) than retail counterparts, with advanced training should come advances in pay but that won't happen so long as insurance companies don't reimburse pharmacists for services and hospitals view you not as a revenue generator but a cost savings measure and a factor to improve outcomes.

I think the lack of residency spots and the pedestal academia puts it on has jaded a lot of people. The compensation aspect differs across the country. In some spots, there's a clear financial incentive to complete residency; on other places, the primary incentive is job description.

I mean, we could have all become investment bankers and had our hair fall out...but we'd make tons of money! But no, we all went to pharmacy school for better working conditions. Choosing residency is simply continuing that same line of thinking. Same reason why MSW's do what they do, 2 years for a master's and you're one of the lowest paid professionals? So the financial scam component is bunk, there are bigger "financial scams" if you expand outside of the world of pharmacy.

Really, I'm just an advocate for residency for purely pragmatic purposes...but only when there are 10,000+ grads each year AND a desire to work in hospital/"clinical, not > 75% dispensing duties" job in a non-rural area, residency will open doors & your labor pool competition shrinks. Any other situation, it becomes an individual calculation for financial and career opportunities.

I think people who broadly paint the "residency is scam" brush fail to comprehend the nuances involved, are jaded themselves, or both. It's a scam only if you let it be a scam, at the end of the day it's your paycheck and career move.

 

[gwarm01]

You don't need residency to be a clinical pharmacist on a skills basis, hands down.

You DO need a residency on a differentiation/labor market basis for your first job in any major urban/suburban market. Exceptions apply, of course.

Basic guiding Gen Y principle...we have to fly for twice the cost to get where our predecessors got to just by walking.

This is what made me so cynical about the entire idea. We aren't getting additional training that let's us tackle those clinical, direct patient care roles that we theorized to appear after the PharmD transition. We're getting worked more hours for less pay just to get the training and jobs that our predecessors got directly out of school. It feels like a generation of pharmacists being taken for a ride, and the real benefactors are the health systems that get this cheap labor.

 

[Reirrac]

I'm certainly not daft enough to say residency is a dumb idea, but the residents I met always asked the students if they were interested in a residency, hence the debate and sharp stares. They expect students to be interested in either retail, a residency, or undecided, and my particular goals after careful observation seemed to throw them off. Looking back, it was probably a bad idea to debate about residency in front of the residents.

While shadowing a certain clinic during rotation, I remarked how the job seemed straight forward enough if you follow a certain decision making algorithm (and hinting if a residency was really needed for the job). That resident certainly did not take that well. Got scolded later on about that comment.

I was lucky to have a preceptor who was more open to talk about career planning. Otherwise I may have indeed failed the rotation if I was under someone overly sensitive and nit picky about semantics.

I learned my lesson...

 

[confettiflyer]

While shadowing a certain clinic during rotation, I remarked how the job seemed straight forward enough if you follow a certain decision making algorithm (and hinting if a residency was really needed for the job). That resident certainly did not take that well. Got scolded later on about that comment.

I'm not offended but that's a pretty offensive assertion to make. Clinical decision making is in many ways the antithesis of algorithmic thinking...that's like telling a psychologist all they need to do is check boxes off the DSM-V and write their script, telling nurses that all they do is follow doctors' orders, or telling a retail pharmacist all they do is decipher handwriting/count by 5's.

Tread lightly, but I think you've learned what you need to know.

 

[Reirrac]

I'm not offended but that's a pretty offensive assertion to make. Clinical decision making is in many ways the antithesis of algorithmic thinking...that's like telling a psychologist all they need to do is check boxes off the DSM-V and write their script, telling nurses that all they do is follow doctors' orders, or telling a retail pharmacist all they do is decipher handwriting/count by 5's.

To elaborate, one would need to review the patient's medical history, family history and social history, check for any adherence problems and any other special situations that may be affecting the patient, check the day's lab values and decide if any dosing adjustment needs to be made, and counsel the patient on how to best achieve results, work with them rather than against them. Am I missing something?? That line of thinking seems algorithmic to me...

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

I read a lot of the statement in here and do a lot of eye rolling. I'm not in the school of thought that everyone needs to do a residency and actually, I tell plenty of people if they get offered a clinical job or hybrid, it's probably better just to take that then to spend a year doing a residency. However, I just find it annoying how people who haven't done a residency like to put in their two cents or better yet, try to put people down for their decisions. It's offensive and not warranted. Like other stated, you have no clue the motivations or desires of others and why they choose to do a residency so what are you gaining by trying to spew offensive opinions?

 

[confettiflyer]

To elaborate, one would need to review the patient's medical history, family history and social history, check for any adherence problems and any other special situations that may be affecting the patient, check the day's lab values and decide if any dosing adjustment needs to be made, and counsel the patient on how to best achieve results, work with them rather than against them. Am I missing something?? That line of thinking seems algorithmic to me...

I see your point, the process is algorithmic but within each step has complexity.

See..that makes sense when you put it that way.

Semantics will kill you!

 

[gwarm01]

Like other stated, you have no clue the motivations or desires of others and why they choose to do a residency so what are you gaining by trying to spew offensive opinions?

I wouldn't take it personally. Like was said earlier in this thread, people come to the board to rant and get it out of their system because we can't very well do that at work.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

The reward for being a clinical pharmacist is not being a (chain) retail pharmacist and being able to do something you ostensibly like. At the end of the day, who REALLY loves working for Wags, CVS, Rite Aid, et al.? Salaries are determined by market forces (as already stated), not advanced training in itself, but I'd take a salary hit over a quality-of-life hit any day.

I like my job. In fact, I love it much, much, MUCH more than working the 50-50 clinical job I used to have. Less stress, boss is more reasonable, more pay, hours are great, etc.

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

I wouldn't take it personally. Like was said earlier in this thread, people come to the board to rant and get it out of their system because we can't very well do that at work.

I don't. I just don't know why other people are so invested in what someone does or doesn't do with their career or why they feel the need to verbally express that to someone that is doing a residency? I guess if that makes you feel better to try and tear someone else's choices down, go for it?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I don't. I just don't know why other people are so invested in what someone does or doesn't do with their career or why they feel the need to verbally express that to someone that is doing a residency? I guess if that makes you feel better to try and tear someone else's choices down, go for it?

Residency, just like the PharmD, represents the next step in unneeded "credential creep." We are all more in debt and, if you elect to do one, receive less money due to residency. What if residency was mandatory? Then we will effectively be paying almost $100,000 a year for an educational experience somewhere when opportunity costs are factored in. That last year of pharmacy school costs much more than a year of tuition, BTW. Its a year of lost salary as well.

A quarter of a million for the extra year plus residency when you add it all up.

So, yeah, it sort of does affect others.

 

[gwarm01]

Residency, just like the PharmD, represents the next step in unneeded "credential creep." We are all more in debt and, if you elect to do one, receive less money due to residency. What if residency was mandatory? Then we will effectively be paying almost $100,000 a year for an educational experience somewhere when opportunity costs are factored in. That last year of pharmacy school costs much more than a year of tuition, BTW. Its a year of lost salary as well.

A quarter of a million for the extra year plus residency when you add it all up.

So, yeah, it sort of does affect others.

To top it off, we do all of this and receive no real reward. We try to encourage residency so we can look like we're playing with the big boys, but in the end you are still just a pharmacist like everyone else. Hopefully a pharmacist with more clinical skills who won't need me to do their kinetics for them even after two years on the jobs. Ugh.

I guess that's the real kicker. You see some pharmacists come out of a terrible PGY1 program that basically taught them nothing and used them as cheap labor, yet somehow instilled them with an over-inflated ego. All the attitude, none of the skill. No real staffing experience, unable to manage a team, clinical knowledge spotty at best. Then give them a job that a more experienced pharmacist was denied due to not being "qualified", yet that very same pharmacist will be the one training them.

Happenings at my institution over the past year have made me very bitter about the whole thing.

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

Residency, just like the PharmD, represents the next step in unneeded "credential creep." We are all more in debt and, if you elect to do one, receive less money due to residency. What if residency was mandatory? Then we will effectively be paying almost $100,000 a year for an educational experience somewhere when opportunity costs are factored in. That last year of pharmacy school costs much more than a year of tuition, BTW. Its a year of lost salary as well.

A quarter of a million for the extra year plus residency when you add it all up.

So, yeah, it sort of does affect others.

But complaining about it on SDN or making offensive remarks to those doing residency does what exactly? Last time I checked, nothing. Most of the people complaining in here aren't doing a single thing to make sure it doesn't become mandatory...

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

Just to clarify again, I don't think residencies should be mandatory. I also don't believe all residencies are created equal or the be all/end all. I don't think you get done with residency and become this all knowing awesome clinical pharmacist. However, the current state of pharmacy and employment make it harder to get certain jobs without them, which is the reason I think a lot of people do them. So when I see threads like this, it feels like bashing people who are trying to get ahead the best way they know how. If you have a problem with residencies, blame the current system not those that are trying to make it/find a job they actually enjoy.

 

[Dred Pirate]

The reward for being a clinical pharmacist is not being a (chain) retail pharmacist and being able to do something you ostensibly like. At the end of the day, who REALLY loves working for Wags, CVS, Rite Aid, et al.? Salaries are determined by market forces (as already stated), not advanced training in itself, but I'd take a salary hit over a quality-of-life hit any day.

exactly - I moonlight just to remind myself of how much I hate retail - I have never heard a chain Rph say "I love my job" it is always "well, I get paid good".

 

[BenJammin]

I disagree. As aforementioned, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there is seemingly a lot to be gained by a residency. With that being said, all residencies are definitely not created equal. Some may be more beneficial than others, but that's the risk you take. It's unfortunate that you think it devalues the PharmD degree, and who knows, you could be correct. However, there is definitely an immense amount of knowledge that is gained by doing a residency that you may not receive otherwise, and that makes it attractive to me.

I think you're dead wrong. All residencies are created equal! They are created with the intention to dilute the profession. It was said perfectly a few posts back: we now have to apply for positions and accept a 50% paycut to do what older pharmacists learned in the first year of their job but at full pay. It's a complete scam. I'm angry because I got a clinical job without a residency but there are higher up jobs that require a residency and for what? I worked my ass off just like them but they have the upper hand because their first year is given the designation PGY-1? It's a lie.

 

[Guilded_Age]

I think you're dead wrong. All residencies are created equal! They are created with the intention to dilute the profession. It was said perfectly a few posts back: we now have to apply for positions and accept a 50% paycut to do what older pharmacists learned in the first year of their job but at full pay. It's a complete scam. I'm angry because I got a clinical job without a residency but there are higher up jobs that require a residency and for what? I worked my ass off just like them but they have the upper hand because their first year is given the designation PGY-1? It's a lie.

Very well further expressed. I can never tell if academia is either an evil genius or completely incompetent and delusional.

 

[KARM12]

I did 2 years of residency--I work M-F day shifts, no holidays/weekends...4.5 weeks of vacation. I am a 100% clinical role. Sweet lifesytle, I wouldn't give up my 2 yrs of residency for anything.

All the people saying they are useless did not do them. You are entitled to your opinion, but bashing people for residency is part of what drives our profession apart.

 

[owlegrad]

All the people saying they are useless did not do them. You are entitled to your opinion, but bashing people for residency is part of what drives our profession apart.

And it seems like the people talking them up did them.

I don't have to eat paint to know I don't want to eat paint.

 

[Guilded_Age]

I did 2 years of residency--I work M-F day shifts, no holidays/weekends...4.5 weeks of vacation. I am a 100% clinical role. Sweet lifesytle, I wouldn't give up my 2 yrs of residency for anything.

All the people saying they are useless did not do them. You are entitled to your opinion, but bashing people for residency is part of what drives our profession apart.

I'd state that you still got in at the right time, but kudos for carving something decent out of the residency process. Cheers. I'm drinking my whiskey barrel aged imperial stout to you, brochaco.

 

[Guilded_Age]

And it seems like the people talking them up did them.

I don't have to eat paint to know I don't want to eat paint.

I'll eat paint based in this comment as well. Astute observation.

 

[BenJammin]

I did 2 years of residency--I work M-F day shifts, no holidays/weekends...4.5 weeks of vacation. I am a 100% clinical role. Sweet lifesytle, I wouldn't give up my 2 yrs of residency for anything.

All the people saying they are useless did not do them. You are entitled to your opinion, but bashing people for residency is part of what drives our profession apart.

I did 0 days of residency. I work M-F, two weekends a year, 3 weeks of vacation, 10 personal days, 95% clinical except when I help out at the outpatient pharmacy. I don't envy your two years of residency at all.

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

And it seems like the people talking them up did them.

I don't have to eat paint to know I don't want to eat paint.

Who is talking them up exactly? The consensus I'm seeing from people that did a residency is that they did them to get where they wanted to be and saw no other way but to do a residency. I don't think anyone is saying everyone should be made to do them. It's a personal choice that we've made and no one is bashing those that didn't do a residency but there seems to be this bashing of those that did do them. We're drinking the kool-aid, we wouldn't make it in retail, etc. Like Karm said, this kind of talk just divides our profession.

 

[confettiflyer]

I think you're dead wrong. All residencies are created equal! They are created with the intention to dilute the profession. It was said perfectly a few posts back: we now have to apply for positions and accept a 50% paycut to do what older pharmacists learned in the first year of their job but at full pay. It's a complete scam. I'm angry because I got a clinical job without a residency but there are higher up jobs that require a residency and for what? I worked my ass off just like them but they have the upper hand because their first year is given the designation PGY-1? It's a lie.

Welcome to Gen Y. More work for less! I went into PGY-1 knowing this is how the game is played. I don't pity you, but do you know how many times pharmacists 5 years (5 years! not even a whole decade) older than me had it made with super cushy surplus clinical jobs, residencies aplenty (that were optional), generalists right out of school, specialists born out of PGY-1 only (not necessarily needing PGY-2), and bonuses for hospital jobs?

Seems like our generation keeps missing the boat by just a little bit. Would have loved to buy a house in 2011...whoops, now they're overpriced again, sorry! Would have loved to have gotten full social security at retirement...whoops, they're going to slash benefits! Etc..etc....

 

[confettiflyer]

Who is talking them up exactly? The consensus I'm seeing from people that did a residency is that they did them to get where they wanted to be and saw no other way but to do a residency. I don't think anyone is saying everyone should be made to do them. It's a personal choice that we've made and no one is bashing those that didn't do a residency but there seems to be this bashing of those that did do them. We're drinking the kool-aid, we wouldn't make it in retail, etc. Like Karm said, this kind of talk just divides our profession.

I wouldn't want everyone to do a residency, because then that's just more freaking competition and dilutes the experience. Keep PGY-1 rarefied...if you make it mandatory for everyone, and it turns into P-5 (or P-7 for you weird 6 year school people).

There needs to be an even distribution of retail grunts, hospital grunts, clin specs, management, non-traditional pharms, and etc... (and i say grunts in an endearing way, fyi).

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

I wouldn't want everyone to do a residency, because then that's just more freaking competition and dilutes the experience. Keep PGY-1 rarefied...if you make it mandatory for everyone, and it turns into P-5 (or P-7 for you weird 6 year school people).

There needs to be an even distribution of retail grunts, hospital grunts, clin specs, management, non-traditional pharms, and etc... (and i say grunts in an endearing way, fyi).

I completely agree with you.

 

[KARM12]

All this residency bashing is pointless. If you don't want to do one or were not able to get into one...leave the rest of us alone.

I would have not gotten my job without my 2 yrs of residency. I am 100% clinical, meaning I touch zero medications and verify zero orders. MDs are traking me down for help and my opnion changes practice. I also have a lot of corporate responsibility for a large healthsystem...meaning people put a lot of trust in me to do things right. I publish and precept. I get paid good money.

 

[confettiflyer]

All this residency bashing is pointless. If you don't want to do one or were not able to get into one...leave the rest of us alone.

I would have not gotten my job without my 2 yrs of residency. I am 100% clinical, meaning I touch zero medications and verify zero orders. MDs are traking me down for help and my opnion changes practice. I also have a lot of corporate responsibility for a large healthsystem...meaning people put a lot of trust in me to do things right. I publish and precept. I get paid good money.

You're effectively a consultant and a corporate middle manager. In any other field, this is an MBA/Six Sigma cert/additional informal training situation, yet not many people here would argue a new grad BA business admin would be able to rise to that level, even after 1-3 years (unless they're severely overestimating ability, which tends to happen).

Double standard is strong. I don't know of any field where a new grad functions that highly without additional intense-by-design training. New lawyer grads don't make partner in their first year, they pump out boatloads of billable hours and push 80 hour weeks; new physician grads are useless and need 3 years at minimum wage to hone/perfect skills.

It's not 2005 anymore, hospitals just don't have time/resources to train-up individuals to the depth that a structured and accredited PGY-1 is designed to do, and why should they when there's an army of 1yr experienced pharmacists to tune up vs. 0yr new grads you have to break in and train?

People who argue/yearn for those days are like MD students yearning for when medical school was 3 years and you sortof just winged it after you graduated in the 1800's.

 

[Swishers]

Damn, OP

 

[awval999]

On that note, by my calculation, I'm now at break-even with the salary I missed out on from PGY-1 based on my original out-of-school offer. From here on out, to steal a phrase from the investment thread, I'm definitely in the money.

Only in fantasy California land. Although, to be fair, that is where you want to be, you made an investment with a specific goal in mind and you executed.

In flyover country we just hired two PGY-2's and brought them in at $110k. Which is (a little less than) my 5 year salary. Their residency investment will never be financially break-even, although, with the way the market is, it was necessary for gainful employment.

 

[awval999]

You're effectively a consultant and a corporate middle manager. In any other field, this is an MBA/Six Sigma cert/additional informal training situation, yet not many people here would argue a new grad BA business admin would be able to rise to that level, even after 1-3 years (unless they're severely overestimating ability, which tends to happen).

Double standard is strong. I don't know of any field where a new grad functions that highly without additional intense-by-design training. New lawyer grads don't make partner in their first year, they pump out boatloads of billable hours and push 80 hour weeks; new physician grads are useless and need 3 years at minimum wage to hone/perfect skills.

It's not 2005 anymore, hospitals just don't have time/resources to train-up individuals to the depth that a structured and accredited PGY-1 is designed to do, and why should they when there's an army of 1yr experienced pharmacists to tune up vs. 0yr new grads you have to break in and train?

People who argue/yearn for those days are like MD students yearning for when medical school was 3 years and you sortof just winged it after you graduated in the 1800's.

Strong ponts Confetti.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

You're effectively a consultant and a corporate middle manager. In any other field, this is an MBA/Six Sigma cert/additional informal training situation, yet not many people here would argue a new grad BA business admin would be able to rise to that level, even after 1-3 years (unless they're severely overestimating ability, which tends to happen).

Double standard is strong. I don't know of any field where a new grad functions that highly without additional intense-by-design training. New lawyer grads don't make partner in their first year, they pump out boatloads of billable hours and push 80 hour weeks; new physician grads are useless and need 3 years at minimum wage to hone/perfect skills.

It's not 2005 anymore, hospitals just don't have time/resources to train-up individuals to the depth that a structured and accredited PGY-1 is designed to do, and why should they when there's an army of 1yr experienced pharmacists to tune up vs. 0yr new grads you have to break in and train?

People who argue/yearn for those days are like MD students yearning for when medical school was 3 years and you sortof just winged it after you graduated in the 1800's.

Man, please. It takes like 2-3 months to train someone to man a post in a hospital. Hell, I did it and I'm a ****ing *****.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

But complaining about it on SDN or making offensive remarks to those doing residency does what exactly? Last time I checked, nothing. Most of the people complaining in here aren't doing a single thing to make sure it doesn't become mandatory...

What the hell exactly do you want me to do? Its in the employers best interest to make people pay for their own training. Do you want me to buy a bunch of hospitals? Complaining about it and trying to raise awareness towards the fact that the neophytes are being fleeced is literally the only thing I can do about it. I've already refused to do a residency and I got a job with free on the job training. I didn't participate in the system. Those who graduated in the 1990s with that B.S. are the ones that really got in before those with economic leverage really started twisting the knife. In an economic system where those with capital have all the power, its silly to throw out the "why aren't you doing something about it" argument. Its as if my car was on fire, you came out screaming demanding I do something about it, then get angry when it turns out I can't magically turn my arms into fire hoses.

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

What the hell exactly do you want me to do? Its in the employers best interest to make people pay for their own training. Do you want me to buy a bunch of hospitals? Complaining about it and trying to raise awareness towards the fact that the neophytes are being fleeced is literally the only thing I can do about it. I've already refused to do a residency and I got a job with free on the job training. I didn't participate in the system. Those who graduated in the 1990s with that B.S. are the ones that really got in before those with economic leverage really started twisting the knife. In an economic system where those with capital have all the power, its silly to throw out the "why aren't you doing something about it" argument. Its as if my car was on fire, you came out screaming demanding I do something about it, then get angry when it turns out I can't magically turn my arms into fire hoses.

How exactly are you raising awareness? Sitting online with a bunch of like minded people bitching together isn't really doing anything but just complaining the situation. In any event, no need for the exaggerations. No one is asking you to single handily change the face of pharmacy. It honestly just gets super annoying how people in the pharmacy forums like to bash each other for simply trying to reach their goals or do something other than retail, which I think has been stated over and over again that in these times can't be done without a residency (except for those lucky few).

 

[confettiflyer]

Man, please. It takes like 2-3 months to train someone to man a post in a hospital. Hell, I did it and I'm a ****ing *****.

2-3 months to man a post, yes...but to function deeply and iron out all the "new grad" kinks (residency or not)? It takes longer than that. I'm 3 years post-grad (2 years out of residency) and still am not even close to the depth of our 10-15 year experienced clinical specs (BS Pharm w/ no residency, mind you).

Any ***** can staff a hospital shift, but if you can get more depth for the same price, then why bother?

 

[confettiflyer]

when it turns out I can't magically turn my arms into fire hoses.

WELL WHY FREAKING NOT?!

Seriously though, that's what our generation is being asked to do, and then we get accused of being lazy/entitled.

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

I think that car analogy is more like people are standing and watching the car on fire complaining about it and not even bothering to call the fire department then turning arms into fire hoses. But that's just my opinion...

 

[Trent Steele]

If you fail a student just because they disagree with the concept of residency, you are the bane of this profession. Turn in your preceptor license asap. No respect for people like you.

I couldn't care less what anyones view on residency is or for an internet trolls "respect". I would care that a student is bashing residents, whom full time employees of the department without a care in the world and thinking its ok. That's not OK for students or anyone for that matter at work.

The failing mark would be in professionalism, which is what I demand from students above all else. Clinical skills can be honed, but if you're running around talking **** to employees of the department as a student? Not going to get far with me or anyone else in the real world for that matter.

But I digress, as the student in question is obviously an idiot, as are many of the posters in this thread agreeing that it's ok to run your mouth while on rotation. /thread

 

[BenJammin]

I couldn't care less what anyones view on residency is or for an internet trolls "respect". I would care that a student is bashing residents, whom full time employees of the department without a care in the world and thinking its ok. That's not OK for students or anyone for that matter at work.

The failing mark would be in professionalism, which is what I demand from students above all else. Clinical skills can be honed, but if you're running around talking **** to employees of the department as a student? Not going to get far with me or anyone else in the real world for that matter.

But I digress, as the student in question is obviously an idiot, as are many of the posters in this thread agreeing that it's ok to run your mouth while on rotation. /thread

Troll. Noun. Used to describe someone with an opposing view apparently. I disagree with the premise of your comments. Discussing the cons of residency with a resident is not bashing them. I don't think it's unprofessional either as they are still a student. Respect isn't earned or given. You're born with it.

As I have said to other people on this forum: if you don't want to expand a student's mind or at least be open to what their view is as a student then forfeit your preceptor license.

 

[eagles22]

I couldn't care less what anyones view on residency is or for an internet trolls "respect". I would care that a student is bashing residents, whom full time employees of the department without a care in the world and thinking its ok. That's not OK for students or anyone for that matter at work.

The failing mark would be in professionalism, which is what I demand from students above all else. Clinical skills can be honed, but if you're running around talking **** to employees of the department as a student? Not going to get far with me or anyone else in the real world for that matter.

But I digress, as the student in question is obviously an idiot, as are many of the posters in this thread agreeing that it's ok to run your mouth while on rotation. /thread

Failing for talking poorly about residency? Are you serious?

Are you really putting someone expressing a distaste for residency should be treated the same way as someone who freely violates HIPAA, makes sexual passes at co-workers/patients, or steals? There's gradations of unprofessionalism. Not turning in a report on time is unprofessional, but doesn't require a failure on the spot. Stealing is hands down a failable offense. Which of those is saying residency is stupid more like?

 

[GoldfishPharmD]

Failing for talking poorly about residency? Are you serious?

Are you really putting someone expressing a distaste for residency should be treated the same way as someone who freely violates HIPAA, makes sexual passes at co-workers/patients, or steals? There's gradations of unprofessionalism. Not turning in a report on time is unprofessional, but doesn't require a failure on the spot. Stealing is hands down a failable offense. Which of those is saying residency is stupid more like?

If a student came to a retail rotation and said "Retail is stupid. You don't do anything useful in retail." I think a lot of people would find that disrespectful. I wouldn't necessarily fail a student because of it, but they would lose professionalism points to me. Some P4 rotations are pass/fail and some are letter grades, so that could potentially be the difference between grades.

 

[eagles22]

If a student came to a retail rotation and said "Retail is stupid. You don't do anything useful in retail." I think a lot of people would find that disrespectful. I wouldn't necessarily fail a student because of it, but they would lose professionalism points to me. Some P4 rotations are pass/fail and some are letter grades, so that could potentially be the difference between grades.

That's fair. But the original post was that the preceptor would outright fail the student. I'm by no means advocating pissing off the person that grades you (it's the dumbest thing you can do), but the grader should be able to distinguish a comment that hurts feeling from true unprofessional behavior.

 

[KARM12]

I have had plenty of students that have no interest in doing residency...that is totally OK with me. I would have a problem with a student telling one of my residents that they were stupid for doing residency. There are better ways to stimulate a discussion about career paths. It is called professionalism. I would never treat a student differently because they were interested in retail. I would require them to put in the same amount of effort and professionalism as any other student. In fact, the best student I've had on my inpatient ID clinical specialty wanted to work for Walgreens...and did just that.

 

[owlegrad]

Did I miss the post where he called told a resident they were stupid? Or was that a hypothetical example?

 

[confettiflyer]

Did I miss the post where he called told a resident they were stupid? Or was that a hypothetical example?

I was gonna say the same thing... this has turned into a game of telephone!

The real answer here is...it depends on the level of "unprofessionalism" exhibited. Automatic fails are things like HIPAA violations or physical assaults, anything short of that gets a one-on-one talk in the office, especially if it's not malicious intent. I've had plenty of top tier students talk about things that probably aren't the smartest things to say on a rotation...but I couldn't fail one automatically, even if they say something as egregious as "residencies are stupid" (which the OP never said, just throwing that out there).

No way that student is walking out of here with an A or honors pass at that point, though...they'll have to excel at being the nicest person on earth for the remainder of the rotation to every single person they meet, I would make that clear in the office... and I'd probably send them home for the day and go watch this ******* powerpoint at home on professionalism.

But I wouldn't auto fail that biznatch.

 

[PharmdA07]

Reading these comments and all the back-and-forths, I thought to myself "maybe your day is NOT that bad after all" !

 

[Trent Steele]

If a student came to a retail rotation and said "Retail is stupid. You don't do anything useful in retail." I think a lot of people would find that disrespectful. I wouldn't necessarily fail a student because of it, but they would lose professionalism points to me. Some P4 rotations are pass/fail and some are letter grades, so that could potentially be the difference between grades.

This person gets it. It's rude and shows lack of social awareness. Students are free to think whatever they want, and I encourage them to post those thoughts to SDN, not talk **** to employees.

 

[CynicalIntern]

I was gonna say the same thing... this has turned into a game of telephone!

The real answer here is...it depends on the level of "unprofessionalism" exhibited. Automatic fails are things like HIPAA violations or physical assaults, anything short of that gets a one-on-one talk in the office, especially if it's not malicious intent. I've had plenty of top tier students talk about things that probably aren't the smartest things to say on a rotation...but I couldn't fail one automatically, even if they say something as egregious as "residencies are stupid" (which the OP never said, just throwing that out there).

No way that student is walking out of here with an A or honors pass at that point, though...they'll have to excel at being the nicest person on earth for the remainder of the rotation to every single person they meet, I would make that clear in the office... and I'd probably send them home for the day and go watch this ******* powerpoint at home on professionalism.

But I wouldn't auto fail that biznatch.

Pretty much this. If OP said something along the lines of "Honestly, I just don't see the benefit it would give me," then that's fine. If they said something along the lines of "residencies are a scam that you all aren't going to trick me into," (or the equivalent, "retail pharmacy is below me, you all are glorified cashiers") then, well...

I wouldn't auto-fail someone on that, because I can't auto-fail someone. But you can be damn sure that I'll be watching the time clock like a hawk and marking it down every time they show up a second after the clock strikes 8, and the student is going to get a ****-ton more journal clubs than they would have otherwise. They may not fail the rotation, but they're not going to have a very good time. Is this petty? Sure. But if the student is going to be a little ****, then I'm going to be a big **** right back at them.

 

[Corpseman]

Pretty much this. If OP said something along the lines of "Honestly, I just don't see the benefit it would give me," then that's fine. If they said something along the lines of "residencies are a scam that you all aren't going to trick me into," (or the equivalent, "retail pharmacy is below me, you all are glorified cashiers") then, well...

I wouldn't auto-fail someone on that, because I can't auto-fail someone. But you can be damn sure that I'll be watching the time clock like a hawk and marking it down every time they show up a second after the clock strikes 8, and the student is going to get a ****-ton more journal clubs than they would have otherwise. They may not fail the rotation, but they're not going to have a very good time. Is this petty? Sure. But if the student is going to be a little ****, then I'm going to be a big **** right back at them.

All because your feelings got hurt? Why not allow those thoughts to open up some dialogue with the student to discuss why they feel that way? How about using it as a learning opportunity.