Making quite an impression on the residents during rotation...

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
All because your feelings got hurt? Why not allow those thoughts to open up some dialogue with the student to discuss why they feel that way? How about using it as a learning opportunity.

You're a fourth year when you're on these rotations. You don't need a "learning opportunity" on how to not be an arrogant twit. Your school has been pounding you over the head with the professionalism hammer for at least three years now. If you don't have the sense to act professional around your preceptor at this point, then apparently the only way to drive it through your skull is to have it affect your grade.

Learning how to talk to people respectfully while getting your point across is more important to being a good pharmacist than whatever guideline you can quote off of memory.

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You're a fourth year when you're on these rotations. You don't need a "learning opportunity" on how to not be an arrogant twit. Your school has been pounding you over the head with the professionalism hammer for at least three years now. If you don't have the sense to act professional around your preceptor at this point, then apparently the only way to drive it through your skull is to have it affect your grade.

Learning how to talk to people respectfully while getting your point across is more important to being a good pharmacist than whatever guideline you can quote off of memory.

And the preceptor doesn't have to be professional? Failing or retaliating at a student with extra work because he said something that hurt your feelings (but is very likely true) is even more unprofessional as the comment in the first place.
 
And the preceptor doesn't have to be professional? Failing or retaliating at a student with extra work because he said something that hurt your feelings (but is very likely true) is even more unprofessional as the comment in the first place.
1)Not failing. Failing would be outside of my power, and not something I could (or would) do. Extra work? Absolutely. It's a punishment for being unprofessional, and that's well within my rights as a preceptor.
2) This would be accompanied, of course, with a phone call to the director of APPE to explain that 1) This is what happened, and 2) This is what is happening because of it. If the director does not think it appropriate, they are welcome to weigh in on what they do think is appropriate. I speak with our director on a monthly basis. I know exactly what they think is appropriate and what they don't.

If the student is blatantly disrespectful about your job (there's a nuance here that I hope is just not being conveyed), I'm not required to shrug sheepishly and say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and it's not my job to embark on a quest to change your mind on it. My sole job is to help prepare you for a real world. And in the real world, being rude to your supervisor is the dumbest thing you can possibly do, because you're going to get (possibly unfair) repercussions on it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
You're a fourth year when you're on these rotations. You don't need a "learning opportunity" on how to not be an arrogant twit. Your school has been pounding you over the head with the professionalism hammer for at least three years now. If you don't have the sense to act professional around your preceptor at this point, then apparently the only way to drive it through your skull is to have it affect your grade.

Learning how to talk to people respectfully while getting your point across is more important to being a good pharmacist than whatever guideline you can quote off of memory.


Still a student, still an opportunity to learn.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You guys seem to be confusing grad intern status with student status. It's not your job as a preceptor for a 4th year rotation to "help prepare you for a real world". You follow the guidelines you were given by the university. By the way, have we completely forgotten the OP?

I make it no secret to people that I have mixed feelings about residency, especially when considering job outcomes, return on investment from time and foregone wages, and so on. While I concede that residency training is necessary for specialist positions, I do know for a fact that specialist positions are hard to come by and job outcome results may vary. And the compensation difference is pretty marginal compared to a staff pharmacist (or clinical generalist, as some may call it) unless one has aspirations for DOP and maybe the vice president of the hospital and such.

That does not sound like a rude, arrogant student. It sounds like a student who is on the fence about something and is yearning for reasons to pick a side. This is so outrageous it's not even funny! Are universities not a marketplace of ideas anymore? You follow the written agenda and you better like it? You guys are confusing a workplace with a training area. Very very sad to read some of these opinions.
 
Pretty much this. If OP said something along the lines of "Honestly, I just don't see the benefit it would give me," then that's fine. If they said something along the lines of "residencies are a scam that you all aren't going to trick me into," (or the equivalent, "retail pharmacy is below me, you all are glorified cashiers") then, well...

I wouldn't auto-fail someone on that, because I can't auto-fail someone. But you can be damn sure that I'll be watching the time clock like a hawk and marking it down every time they show up a second after the clock strikes 8, and the student is going to get a ****-ton more journal clubs than they would have otherwise. They may not fail the rotation, but they're not going to have a very good time. Is this petty? Sure. But if the student is going to be a little ****, then I'm going to be a big **** right back at them.

This is something I only notice women do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Their grade on the rotation should reflect how capable they are of doing the job and their knowledge of the content. It shouldn't reflect personal opinions unless the student is deliberately disruptive. Trying to get back at someone by watching the clock or whatever is petty and passive aggressive. If you see an issue address it, you're an adult and supposedly in charge.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
1)Not failing. Failing would be outside of my power, and not something I could (or would) do. Extra work? Absolutely. It's a punishment for being unprofessional, and that's well within my rights as a preceptor.
2) This would be accompanied, of course, with a phone call to the director of APPE to explain that 1) This is what happened, and 2) This is what is happening because of it. If the director does not think it appropriate, they are welcome to weigh in on what they do think is appropriate. I speak with our director on a monthly basis. I know exactly what they think is appropriate and what they don't.

If the student is blatantly disrespectful about your job (there's a nuance here that I hope is just not being conveyed), I'm not required to shrug sheepishly and say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and it's not my job to embark on a quest to change your mind on it. My sole job is to help prepare you for a real world. And in the real world, being rude to your supervisor is the dumbest thing you can possibly do, because you're going to get (possibly unfair) repercussions on it.

What happens when the student goes to his/her school and says "Hey, I'm noticing the preceptor giving me a ton of work or yelling at me when I'm a minute late but isn't doing the same to the other students." Is your defense really going to be that he/she said something mean about your career choice?
 
Pretty much this. If OP said something along the lines of "Honestly, I just don't see the benefit it would give me," then that's fine. If they said something along the lines of "residencies are a scam that you all aren't going to trick me into," (or the equivalent, "retail pharmacy is below me, you all are glorified cashiers") then, well...

I wouldn't auto-fail someone on that, because I can't auto-fail someone. But you can be damn sure that I'll be watching the time clock like a hawk and marking it down every time they show up a second after the clock strikes 8, and the student is going to get a ****-ton more journal clubs than they would have otherwise. They may not fail the rotation, but they're not going to have a very good time. Is this petty? Sure. But if the student is going to be a little ****, then I'm going to be a big **** right back at them.

This has got to be the most pathetic post ever on this forum. I've never felt sorry for anyone here until now.
 
I've seen lots of unprofessionalism from students...some how none of these students were failed.

1. We had an IPPE student tell us that workbook (assigned by their school) was stupid and they weren't doing it. Most of the workbook, is busy work, but it is something you have to do. I understand not enjoying doing it, but don't flat out refuse. Plus the school grades it.
2. We had an APPE student eating people's food out of the fridge...again not a good idea to be eating the directors lunch out of the fridge in front of them
3. We had an APPE student sitting at the manager's desk booking a vacation - calling a travel agent and booking plane tickets. If you are going to do these things, go hide in the library..
4. Had an APPE student on rounds tell the ID attending that he was "wrong and that you should never use ertapenem and metronidazole together." and that "he couldn't believe the attending "doesn't know that ertapenem covers anaerobes." (arguing with him...ID attending knows this and was using the flagyl for c. diff...)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I've seen lots of unprofessionalism from students...some how none of these students were failed.

1. We had an IPPE student tell us that workbook (assigned by their school) was stupid and they weren't doing it. Most of the workbook, is busy work, but it is something you have to do. I understand not enjoying doing it, but don't flat out refuse. Plus the school grades it.
2. We had an APPE student eating people's food out of the fridge...again not a good idea to be eating the directors lunch out of the fridge in front of them
3. We had an APPE student sitting at the manager's desk booking a vacation - calling a travel agent and booking plane tickets. If you are going to do these things, go hide in the library..
4. Had an APPE student on rounds tell the ID attending that he was "wrong and that you should never use ertapenem and metronidazole together." and that "he couldn't believe the attending "doesn't know that ertapenem covers anaerobes." (arguing with him...ID attending knows this and was using the flagyl for c. diff...)
:laugh:
Ugh, I can't believe the stories people tell about students. The best story I can think of that I didn't see but someone told me was a P4 student on rotation and was at a P&T meeting. Apparently, the MD over the P&T committee made some not nice comments about pharmacy and the student loudly told him in front of everyone "I bet you're just a joy to work with". The director got mad and contacted the school and the P4 had to issue a formal apology.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I've seen lots of unprofessionalism from students...some how none of these students were failed.

1. We had an IPPE student tell us that workbook (assigned by their school) was stupid and they weren't doing it. Most of the workbook, is busy work, but it is something you have to do. I understand not enjoying doing it, but don't flat out refuse. Plus the school grades it.
2. We had an APPE student eating people's food out of the fridge...again not a good idea to be eating the directors lunch out of the fridge in front of them
3. We had an APPE student sitting at the manager's desk booking a vacation - calling a travel agent and booking plane tickets. If you are going to do these things, go hide in the library..
4. Had an APPE student on rounds tell the ID attending that he was "wrong and that you should never use ertapenem and metronidazole together." and that "he couldn't believe the attending "doesn't know that ertapenem covers anaerobes." (arguing with him...ID attending knows this and was using the flagyl for c. diff...)

Travel agents still exist? I thought everyone had converted to online booking by now
 
One of the sites I was at had a student cut into a whole birthday cake in the fridge. It hadn't been given to the birthday boy/girl yet. Can you imagine seeing an unopened birthday cake in the fridge and cutting into it? That one made me laugh. I am trying to recall some of the other good ones I heard but I think that one was my favorite.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I failed a rotation once because I refused to walk around Harlem giving out free condoms and trying to convince people to get HIV tests. I wouldn't have had a problem if I was allowed to set up on a street corner and let people walk up, but they wanted us to yell **** like "FREE CONDOMS", "FREE HIV TESTING", "DID YOU KNOW 1/30 PEOPLE IN NYC ARE HIV POSITIVE?" Not to mention, they even put a ****ing quota on it. Had to convince 5 people/hour to get HIV tests. This is NYC, people do not like to be stopped on the street.

On another note, a P1 intern at the hospital I worked at started drinking my orange juice from the fridge so I spiked it with bisacodyl. That taught him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I didn't fail any rotations, but I did have a bit of trouble on one. It was a retail pharmacy and my preceptor was a graduate of the class before me. I showed up on time every day, did everything that was asked of me, and had a positive attitude the entire time. Never received any negative feedback, was told I was doing a good job. Then my midpoint review came, and my preceptor had given me all 1's and 2's out of 5. It really came as a shock to me and to the experiential education coordinator at my school, because this was near the end of the final year and was the only rotation site to ever make these sorts of claims towards me. Every other preceptor had said I was professional, hard working, competent.

I had to set up a meeting with the preceptor to work out a plan to get me on track to pass by the end of the month. It just involved finishing the project I had started and covering the remaining competencies required by the rotation description. There was no indication of why I was scored so poorly, and no suggestions or areas needing improvement.

I think I had mentioned being interested in nuclear pharmacy, which my preceptor said she had wanted to do as well. Could this minor interaction have been the catalyst for some psycho mind games? Who knows.
 
I failed a rotation once because I refused to walk around Harlem giving out free condoms and trying to convince people to get HIV tests. I wouldn't have had a problem if I was allowed to set up on a street corner and let people walk up, but they wanted us to yell **** like "FREE CONDOMS", "FREE HIV TESTING", "DID YOU KNOW 1/30 PEOPLE IN NYC ARE HIV POSITIVE?" Not to mention, they even put a ****ing quota on it. Had to convince 5 people/hour to get HIV tests. This is NYC, people do not like to be stopped on the street.

On another note, a P1 intern at the hospital I worked at started drinking my orange juice from the fridge so I spiked it with bisacodyl. That taught him.

First, how is THIS even a rotation?

Second, now THAT is funny.

Glad I don't work in a hospital. Besides not having crazy patients yell at you, why do you want to work in a hospital?
 
First, how is THIS even a rotation?

Second, now THAT is funny.

Glad I don't work in a hospital. Besides not having crazy patients yell at you, why do you want to work in a hospital?

So you can sit in a chair and complain about working at the hospital all day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
First, how is THIS even a rotation?

Second, now THAT is funny.

Glad I don't work in a hospital. Besides not having crazy patients yell at you, why do you want to work in a hospital?

Because people in retail never get yelled at....? :smack:
 
One of the sites I was at had a student cut into a whole birthday cake in the fridge. It hadn't been given to the birthday boy/girl yet. Can you imagine seeing an unopened birthday cake in the fridge and cutting into it? That one made me laugh. I am trying to recall some of the other good ones I heard but I think that one was my favorite.
Who does this?! I don't see how sooooo many people can be lacking common sense...
 
First, how is THIS even a rotation?

Second, now THAT is funny.

Glad I don't work in a hospital. Besides not having crazy patients yell at you, why do you want to work in a hospital?

You would only find something like this at Touro. This was one of those "Public Health" rotations. Yeah, I get the organization's mission is to educate the public and reduce the spread of HIV and other STDs but there are better ways to do this. 95% of the people who took the free condoms were either 65+ year old Puerto Rican-American men or junior high school kids.

I think every rotation I've been on, they've complained about my lateness. I'm never going to be inside the pharmacy ready to work at 9AM. NYC parking regulations generally have street cleaning done from 830AM-9AM, can't leave the car until 9AM or they ticket/tow you. I'm not going to park in a parking lot and shell out $30/day for parking when I can park on the street for $1 for every 2 hours. The preceptors who drove were fine with me being late once I explained this to them (sometimes I'd see them sitting in their car until 9AM also), but the subway/bus/bicycle peasants never understood this and would say some stupid **** like "not my problem, you'll just have to pay for parking in the lot, leave your car before 9AM and risk the ticket/tow, get here 1/2 hour early and drive around looking for parking where there is no street cleaning"

I prefer working in a hospital because I hate dealing with insurance companies. I hate the whole business aspect of pharmacy. Having to check every transaction to make sure we're getting paid enough. It's simpler, if it's on formulary, we give it out, if it's not we change it to something that is formulary. No tracking down docs or calling answering services to reach the docs, change it yourself and the doc will be informed the next time they check in on the patient. If they disagree with your decision, they have to make a case to get the nonformulary product and the case needs to be presented to the Director of Pharmacy and the Chief of Medicine.
 
Travel agents still exist? I thought everyone had converted to online booking by now

She was talking to someone about booking a hotel - maybe it was the hotel directly...I heard the story second hand from my manager.
 
Read it again. Are you going to do a 3rd year of residency?

Whoops, my apologies. I misread your statement. I don't see what a 3rd year of residency has to do anything unless you're trying to insult me, which is just you being an ass then...
 
Look like a bunch of cry babies on this forum, both preceptors and students
 
I didn't fail any rotations, but I did have a bit of trouble on one. It was a retail pharmacy and my preceptor was a graduate of the class before me. I showed up on time every day, did everything that was asked of me, and had a positive attitude the entire time. Never received any negative feedback, was told I was doing a good job. Then my midpoint review came, and my preceptor had given me all 1's and 2's out of 5. It really came as a shock to me and to the experiential education coordinator at my school, because this was near the end of the final year and was the only rotation site to ever make these sorts of claims towards me. Every other preceptor had said I was professional, hard working, competent.

I had to set up a meeting with the preceptor to work out a plan to get me on track to pass by the end of the month. It just involved finishing the project I had started and covering the remaining competencies required by the rotation description. There was no indication of why I was scored so poorly, and no suggestions or areas needing improvement.

I think I had mentioned being interested in nuclear pharmacy, which my preceptor said she had wanted to do as well. Could this minor interaction have been the catalyst for some psycho mind games? Who knows.
This happened to me at a hospital rotation. I had to complete an action plan detailing how I'd work towards fixing everything the preceptor felt I needed significant development on.

It turns out the jackass preceptor thought I was doing just fine the whole time, but wanted to give me a crappy midpoint evaluation so I'd "show improvement" by the end of the rotation.
 
Look like a bunch of cry babies on this forum, both preceptors and students

We'll let the student eay your birthday cake this year...

Seriously, what are you adding to discussion?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
You would only find something like this at Touro. This was one of those "Public Health" rotations. Yeah, I get the organization's mission is to educate the public and reduce the spread of HIV and other STDs but there are better ways to do this. 95% of the people who took the free condoms were either 65+ year old Puerto Rican-American men or junior high school kids.

I think every rotation I've been on, they've complained about my lateness. I'm never going to be inside the pharmacy ready to work at 9AM. NYC parking regulations generally have street cleaning done from 830AM-9AM, can't leave the car until 9AM or they ticket/tow you. I'm not going to park in a parking lot and shell out $30/day for parking when I can park on the street for $1 for every 2 hours. The preceptors who drove were fine with me being late once I explained this to them (sometimes I'd see them sitting in their car until 9AM also), but the subway/bus/bicycle peasants never understood this and would say some stupid **** like "not my problem, you'll just have to pay for parking in the lot, leave your car before 9AM and risk the ticket/tow, get here 1/2 hour early and drive around looking for parking where there is no street cleaning"

I prefer working in a hospital because I hate dealing with insurance companies. I hate the whole business aspect of pharmacy. Having to check every transaction to make sure we're getting paid enough. It's simpler, if it's on formulary, we give it out, if it's not we change it to something that is formulary. No tracking down docs or calling answering services to reach the docs, change it yourself and the doc will be informed the next time they check in on the patient. If they disagree with your decision, they have to make a case to get the nonformulary product and the case needs to be presented to the Director of Pharmacy and the Chief of Medicine.

Jeez. My biggest pet peeve about students is showing up late. You could be the dumbest pharmacy student in America but dammit come to work on time. Leave earlier. Park on the street. Take the DART. I don't care. Being late is more unprofessional than anything we've discussed in this topic, in my opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Being late is a bad habit, especially if you are in a job where you are expected to open the pharmacy. When I worked retail, I knew plenty of pharmacists that got the ax for consistent tardiness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
We've negotiated alternate start times and days for students that request it...but that's the key, communication before the rotation and the expectation that patient care comes first, not your convenience. If you respectfully ask and state your reasons, we'll treat you like any other employee requesting to work different shift times. Obviously, this doesn't work everywhere.

Top reason cited was child care.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I once had a preceptor that had a fit I had to meet with the director of the hospital for some inpatient project work, AND was extremely hesitant to say yes to my request to have a day off to scramble (I didn't end up needing it, I asked at the beginning of the rotation).

I just held my tongue, doubled down, and didn't let a micromanaging preceptor ruin my pursuit of a paycheck. I just reamed them come evaluation time once my grade was submitted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Jeez. My biggest pet peeve about students is showing up late. You could be the dumbest pharmacy student in America but dammit come to work on time. Leave earlier. Park on the street. Take the DART. I don't care. Being late is more unprofessional than anything we've discussed in this topic, in my opinion.

When I say late, I don't mean 15-20 mins. I mean instead of 9AM its probably 9:03-9:07AM, consistently. And only at places where parking is an issue. If it's a huge parking lot with plenty of parking for everyone, I'm on time.

I've found that people from American/British/German/Japanese cultures get annoyed easily about lateness, while Middle Easterners/Indians/Hispanics/Spanish/French/Italian are more chill about lateness as long as the work gets done.
 
When I say late, I don't mean 15-20 mins. I mean instead of 9AM its probably 9:03-9:07AM, consistently. And only at places where parking is an issue. If it's a huge parking lot with plenty of parking for everyone, I'm on time.

I've found that people from American/British/German/Japanese cultures get annoyed easily about lateness, while Middle Easterners/Indians/Hispanics/Spanish/French/Italian are more chill about lateness as long as the work gets done.

If you know parking is an issue every single day, then why don't you come in an extra 10 minutes early. That excuse wouldn't fly with me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Why didn't you arrange to come in later, and leave later with your preceptor at the beginning of the rotation?
 
Jeez. My biggest pet peeve about students is showing up late. You could be the dumbest pharmacy student in America but dammit come to work on time. Leave earlier. Park on the street. Take the DART. I don't care. Being late is more unprofessional than anything we've discussed in this topic, in my opinion.

I feel the same way. I do not accept that anyone scheduled for 9 am is doomed to be late.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Because you can't leave your car until 9AM. Otherwise the traffic cops run over and write you a ticket.
I guess that doesn't make sense to me. If you're supposed to start at 9 but can't even park your car until 9?
 
I guess that doesn't make sense to me. If you're supposed to start at 9 but can't even park your car until 9?

Yeah, it's a NYC parking rule. Usually street cleaning s done between 830AM-9AM. If you leave the car and the street sweeper comes by, you get a ticket or towed.
 
Yeah that crap wouldn't go over well with me. Either find a parking spot before 8:30, figure out how to make it here without having to park a car, or we could work out a deal if our hours aren't the same.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
No. You're on my time. Rounding starts at 9.

What are you going to miss in 5 minutes?

Where do you live? Around here, even when people come in on time at 9, nothing ever starts at 9. Like at one of my hospitals, people start strolling in around 9, stroll right out to the cafeteria and spend the first hour BSing grabbing coffee, gossiping or eating breakfast.

Even on my rotations where we rounded, nothing ever happened during the first 15-20 minutes to take lateness into account, people wanted coffee, etc.
 
What are you going to miss in 5 minutes?

Where do you live? Around here, even when people come in on time at 9, nothing ever starts at 9. Like at one of my hospitals, people start strolling in around 9, stroll right out to the cafeteria and spend the first hour BSing grabbing coffee, gossiping or eating breakfast.

Even on my rotations where we rounded, nothing ever happened during the first 15-20 minutes to take lateness into account, people wanted coffee, etc.
At least half the hospitals around here round at 7 or 7:30. I think 9 is crazy late to begin with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
At least half the hospitals around here round at 7 or 7:30. I think 9 is crazy late to begin with.

Yeah, the residents and interns are usually there pre-rounding at that time. Attendings don't like showing up until at least 9. ID and Cardiology usually don't even show up until 1PM.
 
The hours for my APPE this month are 8-4:30, I had no problems getting there by 8am even though it's a 35min drive (away from rush hour, so that's a plus). I woke up at 5:15am to give myself ample time to get ready, be there on time and have time to work out parking at the hospital since parking can be a problem. Was in and ready at 7:40 and now I know what to do. Really, there are few excuses for being late in my opinion.
 
Problem is no one wants to hire new grads without experience and residencies count as experience in this ****ty market

Next time don't tell them your opinion, just ask them what it's like knowing they're spending a year at 1/4th normal pay to learn how to do something their school should have taught them to do. My biggest regret during rotations was putting on a show for my preceptors when I should have completely let loose.

It's the biggest scam in health care. Let's not hire good pharmacists with great potential so we can train them to be great pharmacists, let's pay one pharmacist a crappy salary for one year and just rotate through them every year. Who cares about "having a familiar face"? The patients and medical residents won't know the difference.
 
To elaborate, one would need to review the patient's medical history, family history and social history, check for any adherence problems and any other special situations that may be affecting the patient, check the day's lab values and decide if any dosing adjustment needs to be made, and counsel the patient on how to best achieve results, work with them rather than against them. Am I missing something?? That line of thinking seems algorithmic to me...

This is ignorant. There is so much more to reviewing a patient. How are you supposed to know if there are any issues with the meds if you do not have adequate training to recognize these issues. Pharmacy school does not fully equip you to handle patient care and the additional year (which should really be two) is necessary.

The students I precept come in thinking they know everything there is about patient care. I am not sure why the schools are letting students loose with these poor misconceptions. There is so much to learn about clinical practice. You do not know what you don't know until you are exposed to those situations.

As a preceptor, I am very insulted when students come into rotation and degrade the role of residency and are under the impression they can practice as a proficient clinical pharmacist from day 1 after graduation. Do not upset preceptors or residents by insulting their career choices.

Just go work retail.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Top