Male DO student going into OBGYN

[marine12]

Hello everyone,

I am a male OBGYN student. I discounted OB until I did my rotation. I rotated with an majority male group, which from what I learned is very very very rare these days. They did not seem to have issues with patients and neither did I. But what about the rest of the OB world as a male doctor? Does it hurt residency chances? Also, how bad is the DO bias in OB? I have a 236 step one score.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[anonperson]

Hello everyone,

I am a male OBGYN student. I discounted OB until I did my rotation. I rotated with an majority male group, which from what I learned is very very very rare these days. They did not seem to have issues with patients and neither did I. But what about the rest of the OB world as a male doctor? Does it hurt residency chances? Also, how bad is the DO bias in OB? I have a 236 step one score.

Being male won't hurt your chances.

DO bias is program dependent. My residency was a community program and didn't care.

My fellowship was at an academic center in the west coast and didn't really interview or seriously consider DOs.

Think hard about going down the OBGYN route due to lifestyle and compensation etc.

 

[marine12]

Being male won't hurt your chances.

DO bias is program dependent. My residency was a community program and didn't care.

My fellowship was at an academic center in the west coast and didn't really interview our seriously consider DOs.

Think hard about going down the OBGYN route due to lifestyle and compensation etc.

I probably don’t have much interest in fellowship regardless of speciality but that could obviously change. I hear different things regarding compensation. Is it that bad?

 

[anonperson]

I probably don’t have much interest in fellowship regardless of speciality but that could obviously change. I hear different things regarding compensation. Is it that bad?

I should clarify. The place I did fellowship at didn't interview DOs for the residency program. This is a major academic institution on the west coast. Just a bias they had.

Compensation is not commensurate to the amount of work done unfortunately.

With Obstetrics, a certain portion of your deliveries are going to happen between 8pm and 6am. Typically these are hours you want to be at home. And you have to go in to do the delivery. Can't phone in orders and see the patient the next day.

Compare this to other surgical specialties such as ENT, Urology, ortho, ophtho etc. Sure they can have emergencies but even if they are on call, most of the time they don't have to come in right away.

This is mitigated by being in a group practice but when you are on call, which can be anywhere from 3 to 6 times a month, you may have to come into the hospital in the middle of the night. It loses its charm.

Plus, if you are in a set up where you have to cover unassigned patients periodically, it's even worse. Any reject drug addict patient who is pregnant and rolls into labor and delivery with no prenatal care and severe pre eclampsia and a bad tracing, now you are on the hook to care for them due to EMTALA.

Plus, they make more on average, easily $500k+.

It's tougher to crack that barrier in OBGYN without the work load getting out of control.

Overall, the field is okay. I'm not sure why it's popular among medical students but it has its issues.

If you are comfortable with the call situation and the other things I mentioned, then go for it, but I personally think there are better fields.

 

[Rogue42]

I should clarify. The place I did fellowship at didn't interview DOs for the residency program. This is a major academic institution on the west coast. Just a bias they had.

Compensation is not commensurate to the amount of work done unfortunately.

With Obstetrics, a certain portion of your deliveries are going to happen between 8pm and 6am. Typically these are hours you want to be at home. And you have to go in to do the delivery. Can't phone in orders and see the patient the next day.

Compare this to other surgical specialties such as ENT, Urology, ortho, ophtho etc. Sure they can have emergencies but even if they are on call, most of the time they don't have to come in right away.

This is mitigated by being in a group practice but when you are on call, which can be anywhere from 3 to 6 times a month, you may have to come into the hospital in the middle of the night. It loses its charm.

Plus, if you are in a set up where you have to cover unassigned patients periodically, it's even worse. Any reject drug addict patient who is pregnant and rolls into labor and delivery with no prenatal care and severe pre eclampsia and a bad tracing, now you are on the hook to care for them due to EMTALA.

Plus, they make more on average, easily $500k+.

It's tougher to crack that barrier in OBGYN without the work load getting out of control.

Overall, the field is okay. I'm not sure why it's popular among medical students but it has its issues.

If you are comfortable with the call situation and the other things I mentioned, then go for it, but I personally think there are better fields.

What does the true compensation look like for OBGYNs? I’m a male, interested in the field also, and it just seems like every thread about compensation is out date or uses average numbers from couple of years ago

 

[anonperson]

What does the true compensation look like for OBGYNs? I’m a male, interested in the field also, and it just seems like every thread about compensation is out date or uses average numbers from couple of years ago

Take 5 seconds and Google MGMA compensation data pdf and you can easily find it.

Compensation varies by region and practice type.

You're looking at $300k to $400k range depending on the workload.

 

[Dr G Oogle]

I’m a dude and don’t have much issue. I’m currently 90%ile in urogyn in terms of productivity.

I can give you some number between academic and starting PP in Midwest. In the academic program the generalists make between $200-250K starting, maybe more if more senior, but def not near $400k. In Hospital employed just 20 min east of the main med center, starting salary was $350-400k. And honestly the work load was much less in hospital employed than academic.

For OB most practices have someone cover the night shift, so if it’s not you, you get to sleep tight. Many practices have the day after overnight shift off.

I’m employed by the urology dept so have some insight there too. Urology salary is higher in academics, in PP gap is narrower. But honestly the workload is no better than OB. My general uro friends always come in when they are on call, at least 2-3 times per week in the middle of the night or weekend.

The main thing in my opinion about getting into OBgyn is expectations about your career path. The role of the generalist is narrowing into being mostly OB except in more rural areas. You’re not going to see patients in office, bounce to OR to do a hyst and then go deliver a kid. Surgery is becoming more of the purvey of the fellowship trained or at least very high volume person. If you’re comfortable just doing OB and office or minor procedures as a general obgyn and don’t have your heart set on a surgical practice without a fellowship I think it’s a fine field. If you have your sights set on a fellowship and would hate being a generalist I would strongly reconsider.

 

[Rogue42]

I’m a dude and don’t have much issue. I’m currently 90%ile in urogyn in terms of productivity.

I can give you some number between academic and starting PP in Midwest. In the academic program the generalists make between $200-250K starting, maybe more if more senior, but def not near $400k. In Hospital employed just 20 min east of the main med center, starting salary was $350-400k. And honestly the work load was much less in hospital employed than academic.

For OB most practices have someone cover the night shift, so if it’s not you, you get to sleep tight. Many practices have the day after overnight shift off.

I’m employed by the urology dept so have some insight there too. Urology salary is higher in academics, in PP gap is narrower. But honestly the workload is no better than OB. My general uro friends always come in when they are on call, at least 2-3 times per week in the middle of the night or weekend.

The main thing in my opinion about getting into OBgyn is expectations about your career path. The role of the generalist is narrowing into being mostly OB except in more rural areas. You’re not going to see patients in office, bounce to OR to do a hyst and then go deliver a kid. Surgery is becoming more of the purvey of the fellowship trained or at least very high volume person. If you’re comfortable just doing OB and office or minor procedures as a general obgyn and don’t have your heart set on a surgical practice without a fellowship I think it’s a fine field. If you have your sights set on a fellowship and would hate being a generalist I would strongly reconsider.

I dont want to highjack this thread, mind if i message you?

 

[Dr G Oogle]

I dont want to highjack this thread, mind if i message you?

Message away

 

[DocWinter]

For reference to those looking at $ and lifestyle

I am PGY4, male, DO, signed to contract in the south starting this summer. Base 350k with ongoing loan repayment plus residency stipend, signing bonus. RVU potential to make what current docs are pulling in; 400-600k. They are working 80hrs a week. Heavy surgical volume.

Being a male has never been as issue during residency (other than dealing with a couple very feminist residents who simply don’t like men) in terms of having patients or job offers. I’ve been heavily courted since making a practice link account. Being DO makes it a little harder to match but that improves year by year. There is great opportunity, varying greatly by region, for good OB docs and your sex should not be a barrier to that. Residency can be tricky just given the female dominated environment that has evolved.

 

[Rogue42]

For reference to those looking at $ and lifestyle

I am PGY4, male, DO, signed to contract in the south starting this summer. Base 350k with ongoing loan repayment plus residency stipend, signing bonus. RVU potential to make what current docs are pulling in; 400-600k. They are working 80hrs a week. Heavy surgical volume.

Being a male has never been as issue during residency (other than dealing with a couple very feminist residents who simply don’t like men) in terms of having patients or job offers. I’ve been heavily courted since making a practice link account. Being DO makes it a little harder to match but that improves year by year. There is great opportunity, varying greatly by region, for good OB docs and your sex should not be a barrier to that. Residency can be tricky just given the female dominated environment that has evolved.

Any advice on how to write a personal statement for audition rotations and residency applications?

 

[DocWinter]

Any advice on how to write a personal statement for audition rotations and residency applications?

Generic PS often have some “come to OB moment”, talking about how they saw the miracle of life, found the wonder of the OR and wanted to become an OB on the spot to become a champion women’s health or some fancy talk like that. Don’t do that, they’re everywhere.

I’ve read a lot of personal statements and the ones who are honest and talk about how OB is fun, how they want a challenge in their career, and enjoy the multi faceted world of OBGYN is something residents and attending can relate to.

 

[Rogue42]

Generic PS often have some “come to OB moment”, talking about how they saw the miracle of life, found the wonder of the OR and wanted to become an OB on the spot to become a champion women’s health or some fancy talk like that. Don’t do that, they’re everywhere.

I’ve read a lot of personal statements and the ones who are honest and talk about how OB is fun, how they want a challenge in their career, and enjoy the multi faceted world of OBGYN is something residents and attending can relate to.

Appreciate the advice!

 

[gyngyn]

Men are highly sought after by OBG PD's.
No program wants to lose half of their applicant pool.

 

[marine12]

For reference to those looking at $ and lifestyle

I am PGY4, male, DO, signed to contract in the south starting this summer. Base 350k with ongoing loan repayment plus residency stipend, signing bonus. RVU potential to make what current docs are pulling in; 400-600k. They are working 80hrs a week. Heavy surgical volume.

Being a male has never been as issue during residency (other than dealing with a couple very feminist residents who simply don’t like men) in terms of having patients or job offers. I’ve been heavily courted since making a practice link account. Being DO makes it a little harder to match but that improves year by year. There is great opportunity, varying greatly by region, for good OB docs and your sex should not be a barrier to that. Residency can be tricky just given the female dominated environment that has evolved.

80 hours during practice is heavier than normal isnt it? I did a rotation with a four person private practice and they were working less than that. but I guess less income too. But, since I made this post I rotated in that practice that has 3 male OBs, one female and a female NP. I saw that they had no shortage of patients coming to male doctors.

 

[marine12]

Men are highly sought after by OBG PD's.
No program wants to lose half of their applicant pool.

But does that make up for being a DO student with a 238 step one? I know its not a bad score but not amazing either.

 

[gyngyn]

But does that make up for being a DO student with a 238 step one? I know its not a bad score but not amazing either.

That's a separate issue. Many programs will weigh their desire to have at least one male resident per year against their reluctance to rank DO's.

 

[marine12]

That's a separate issue. Many programs will weigh their desire to have at least one male resident per year against their reluctance to rank DO's.

How bad is the anti-do sentiment at historically MD programs ?

 

[gyngyn]

How bad is the anti-do sentiment at historically MD programs ?

It seems to vary quite a bit by region.

 

[Rogue42]

That's a separate issue. Many programs will weigh their desire to have at least one male resident per year against their reluctance to rank DO's.

What is your take on COMLEX only DOs applying to OB?

I know a step score would make someone significantly more competitive, but how bad is it to try with just comlex. Any insight on being a current third year applying with just a "PASS" on USMLE instead of a score? I wanted fam med so did not take USMLE, but now interested in OB, so I only have a comlex, so now my only option would be a "PASS" USMLE?

 

[DocWinter]

80 hours during practice is heavier than normal isnt it? I did a rotation with a four person private practice and they were working less than that. but I guess less income too. But, since I made this post I rotated in that practice that has 3 male OBs, one female and a female NP. I saw that they had no shortage of patients coming to male doctors.

For those making 600k, they put in a lot of hours. Also worked a long time to get that patient base.

The male Drs see the most patients and put in the most hours. No patient shortage.

YMMV depending on geographic location

 

[Prehealth1011]

I am PGY4, male, DO, signed to contract in the south starting this summer. Base 350k with ongoing loan repayment plus residency stipend, signing bonus. RVU potential to make what current docs are pulling in; 400-600k. They are working 80hrs a week. Heavy surgical volume.

How many hours are you working for that roughly?

 

[gyngyn]

What is your take on COMLEX only DOs applying to OB?

I know a step score would make someone significantly more competitive, but how bad is it to try with just comlex. Any insight on being a current third year applying with just a "PASS" on USMLE instead of a score? I wanted fam med so did not take USMLE, but now interested in OB, so I only have a comlex, so now my only option would be a "PASS" USMLE?

The programs in my area (besides the previously DO programs) will not consider applicants who have not taken USMLE.

 

[DocWinter]

How many hours are you working for that roughly?

45-50 with cal one in 6

 

[anonperson]

80 hours during practice is heavier than normal isnt it? I did a rotation with a four person private practice and they were working less than that. but I guess less income too. But, since I made this post I rotated in that practice that has 3 male OBs, one female and a female NP. I saw that they had no shortage of patients coming to male doctors.

You won't have a problem getting a job in general.

Some practices aren't looking for any male physicians though which is a reality. For example, There is a large all female group in Southern California that advertises itself like that and does very well.

It's just part of the game at this point.

The main thing is OBGYN isn't that great of a specialty. There are better specialties that allow you to earn more money with less work. The call burden can be unreasonable and if you end up covering unassigned patients in the ER, that can be it's own slice of hell.

Even the example given earlier about earning $600k working 80 hrs isn't that great. That comes out to an hourly rate of ~$156/hr which other specialties can easily blow out of the water.

Working 80 hours isn't sustainable long term. At my old job, I was taking 5 in house calls a month, operating, and seeing patients other days. Post call days were off but I was a zombie from from being so tired. It came out to 60 hours per week on average.

I now work 40 hours, no call, and the difference is night and day.

I don't want to be overly negative but you should at least make a reasonably informed decision.

 

[Rogue42]

You won't have a problem getting a job in general.

Some practices aren't looking for any male physicians though which is a reality. For example, There is a large all female group in Southern California that advertises itself like that and does very well.

It's just part of the game at this point.

The main thing is OBGYN isn't that great of a specialty. There are better specialties that allow you to earn more money with less work. The call burden can be unreasonable and if you end up covering unassigned patients in the ER, that can be it's own slice of hell.

Even the example given earlier about earning $600k working 80 hrs isn't that great. That comes out to an hourly rate of ~$156/hr which other specialties can easily blow out of the water.

Working 80 hours isn't sustainable long term. At my old job, I was taking 5 in house calls a month, operating, and seeing patients other days. Post call days were off but I was a zombie from from being so tired. It came out to 60 hours per week on average.

I now work 40 hours, no call, and the difference is night and day.

I don't want to be overly negative but you should at least make a reasonably informed decision.

What other specialties allow for a good mix of clinic and surgery though that gives you a good lifestyle?

Because the only ones that come to mind are urology, derm, ENT, and maybe ortho? And to be honest only the top 10% of all medical students are getting those specialties. It is not as simple as saying, "hey go do urology, its a better lifestyle" when that realistically only applies to maybe 10% of students.

Is it possible to work 50 hours a week take call once or twice a month or no more than 4 and make 350k? or is that simply too unreasonable for this specialty?

 

[anonperson]

What other specialties allow for a good mix of clinic and surgery though that gives you a good lifestyle?

Because the only ones that come to mind are urology, derm, ENT, and maybe ortho? And to be honest only the top 10% of all medical students are getting those specialties. It is not as simple as saying, "hey go do urology, its a better lifestyle" when that realistically only applies to maybe 10% of students.

Is it possible to work 50 hours a week take call once or twice a month or no more than 4 and make 350k? or is that simply too unreasonable for this specialty?

I wouldn't consider Obstetrics a good lifestyle to be honest.

STEMI call or trauma may have it worse but they get paid more.

For most practices, Obstetrics compromises 50% of the patient volume. That means a significant number of patients will eventually deliver at the hospital and the on call doctor will have to drag themselves in at any hour of the day to do the delivery. If doing home call, then coming to the hospital at 2am is a real possibility.

It is not pleasant to live like this.

Plus, working irregular hours like this is an independent risk factor for cardiac related mortality.

Can you find a job that offers minimal/no call for $350k? Maybe but it's not common. Vast majority of jobs want their pound of flesh with OB call. Typically 4 to 5 a month. That means one of your weekends will get screwed up and of course some of your holidays as well (Christmas, New Years, Thanksgiving).

You can find outpatient only jobs but they typically aren't paying $350k.

If you like to operate and can't do other specialties, knock yourself out. The reimbursement for gynecologic procedures is fairly terrible when compared to Urology, ENT etc.

The sad part is it is more financially lucrative to just see patients in the office than spend time doing a hysterectomy for example. Urodynamics can reimburse at a similar amount (if it's video, then even more) as a major gynecologic procedure with none of the risk.

My main point is the field is just okay at best. The call burden can make it terrible and unfortunately, Obstetrics call can be a large part of the job. People need to make a smart decision because of the potential consequences to their personal life and health years down the line.

 

[DocWinter]

Because the only ones that come to mind are urology, derm, ENT, and maybe ortho? And to be honest only the top 10% of all medical students are getting those specialties. It is not as simple as saying, "hey go do urology, its a better lifestyle" when that realistically only applies to maybe 10% of medical students

Is it possible to work 50 hours a week take call once or twice a month or no more than 4 and make 350k? or is that simply too unreasonable for this specialty?

Yeah that’s the kicker. Of course ENT, ortho, uro are prime specialties, with all the better money, better lifestyle, etc. I love OB, but if someone has offered me a uro position I would have thought long and hard because the hours and pay are notably better. I too would encourage anyone considering OB to look at “how high” they could match and see if they would find a fit doing less for more. But those positions are very limited so it wasn’t really on the table for me and the vast majority of med students so that argument of “just go do better specialities XYZ” isn’t relatable or helpful.

Also you have to actually find some level of satisfaction in your work. You couldn’t pay me enough to care about eczema as a way of life…it’s so much more than just being perceived s as “not good enough” to match the premiere specialties

Bottom line is I’m a surgeon in the OR, will make great money and love what I do. Compared to probably 80% of medical specialties out there, my satisfaction and pay blows them out of the water.

To your last question that’s basically my deal with a 1 in 6 call.

 

[Dr G Oogle]

I agree with @anonperson, OB in general is a pretty terrible lifestyle no matter how you slice it. The subspecialties are a different beast however. You can have a normal life and make better money. As a urogyn im basically never on call, and most of the calls I do get can be handled with a catheter and seen at my convenience. I send all of my postops home and never need to round in the hospital. Rarely I get called in to fix a bladder or stent a ureter, but it’s been predominantly during waking hours. Urogyn procedures, especially incontinence are much more lucrative then general gyn and OB.

 

[marine12]

Yeah that’s the kicker. Of course ENT, ortho, uro are prime specialties, with all the better money, better lifestyle, etc. I love OB, but if someone has offered me a uro position I would have thought long and hard because the hours and pay are notably better. I too would encourage anyone considering OB to look at “how high” they could match and see if they would find a fit doing less for more. But those positions are very limited so it wasn’t really on the table for me and the vast majority of med students so that argument of “just go do better specialities XYZ” isn’t relatable or helpful.

Also you have to actually find some level of satisfaction in your work. You couldn’t pay me enough to care about eczema as a way of life…it’s so much more than just being perceived s as “not good enough” to match the premiere specialties

Bottom line is I’m a surgeon in the OR, will make great money and love what I do. Compared to probably 80% of medical specialties out there, my satisfaction and pay blows them out of the water.

To your last question that’s basically my deal with a 1 in 6 call.

Yeah I am a DO student, ortho, Derm, etc are not even in the cards for me, even if I had a 250 step score which I do not.

 

[marine12]

45-50 with cal one in 6

How much vacation time do you get and are you able to actually use the time?

 

[DocWinter]

How much vacation time do you get and are you able to actually use the time?

4 wks
I can’t see why not. ?

 

[marine12]

4 wks
I can’t see why not. ?

Well, one OB rotation I did one of the docs there said they felt like they couldn't really use the time because of pressure not to increase call volume for others.

 

[Dr G Oogle]

That sounds like a person who has no boundaries rather than an issue with the field. I’ve also seen a person get a hard time for taking time off work while her kid was in the ICU. There are toxic practices everywhere and in every field, just have to learn how to avoid them