Malpractice and tail insurance costs

[Pharmado]

As a CA-3 I'm comparing job offers and deciding where I want to practice next year, but there are some variables such as malpractice/tail costs that I don't have a good concept of their true value. I'm a numbers person and I like to have a good idea of how much different benefits are actually worth. Is there any good source for insurance estimates/values state by state? I understand that tail coverage is typically around 250% of your yearly malpractice cost, but I don't know how much yearly malpractice costs are. For example I'm considering 2 jobs in different parts of the country. Job A is a 1099 PP gig covering only malpractice costs but no tail. Job B is a W-2 hospital employed gig with health/dental/retirement/malpractice + tail. There are significant tax and benefit differences between the 2 jobs, and understanding the actual values is paramount. Any help on general state-by-state malpractice costs or insurance estimates would be appreciated.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[caligas]

We pay about 15k per year in southeast. But they should be able to tell you these details if they are offering you a job.

 

[Mman]

I'd say that 10-15K is on the lower side for anesthesia per year and 20-25K is on the higher side. If you just estimate about 20K per year you are probably in the ballpark.

 

[Hoya11]

As a CA-3 I'm comparing job offers and deciding where I want to practice next year, but there are some variables such as malpractice/tail costs that I don't have a good concept of their true value. I'm a numbers person and I like to have a good idea of how much different benefits are actually worth. Is there any good source for insurance estimates/values state by state? I understand that tail coverage is typically around 250% of your yearly malpractice cost, but I don't know how much yearly malpractice costs are. For example I'm considering 2 jobs in different parts of the country. Job A is a 1099 PP gig covering only malpractice costs but no tail. Job B is a W-2 hospital employed gig with health/dental/retirement/malpractice + tail. There are significant tax and benefit differences between the 2 jobs, and understanding the actual values is paramount. Any help on general state-by-state malpractice costs or insurance estimates would be appreciated.

Malpractice insurance around 15-20k sounds right.

In a previous job i had to pay completely out of pocket for health insurance and it was about 1200/month in premiums for my family for a basic plan with bcbs.

Also consider 401k matching/profit sharing annual bonuses. ~25k ballpark


Overall I think the cost of providing your own malpractice, dental, health insurance: 80k (estimate)

 

[aneftp]

This has been discussed before multiple times.

But always good to refresh for new grads. Unless you are working for a big AMC (team health Sheridan American anesthesiology which are self insured (no tail) academics , or federal and state employer.

Generally small groups use claims made which take 5 years to "mature". Years 1,2 are relatively cheaper than years 3-5.

So by year 5. The claims made policy will cost u roughly $15-20k. Which means if you stay 5 years. Your tail is gonna to be $35-40k.

If you stay one year (assuming claims made is $4-6k) tail will be $8000-13000.

Second year claims made increases to $7000-10000. Which means ur tail at year 2 is around 14-18k

 

[deleted126335]

This has been discussed before multiple times.

But always good to refresh for new grads. Unless you are working for a big AMC (team health Sheridan American anesthesiology which are self insured (no tail) academics , or federal and state employer.

Generally small groups use claims made which take 5 years to "mature". Years 1,2 are relatively cheaper than years 3-5.

So by year 5. The claims made policy will cost u roughly $15-20k. Which means if you stay 5 years. Your tail is gonna to be $35-40k.

If you stay one year (assuming claims made is $4-6k) tail will be $8000-13000.

Second year claims made increases to $7000-10000. Which means ur tail at year 2 is around 14-18k

Agree. But would double those numbers for places like Philly, Detroit, Chicago, Certain parts of Florida, etc.

 

[deleted162650]

Call an insurance agent in the areas you're looking at and ask them.

 

[turnupthegas]

Can anyone comment on he tail insurance for AMCs in the northeast? Most appear to be claims made that mature after 3 years.

How much is a tail typically in this area? After a year? two? I'm just curious if a job doesn't pan out to what I think it is and have to fork some dough over.

Thanks yaaaaaaallll

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[aneftp]

Can anyone comment on he tail insurance for AMCs in the northeast? Most appear to be claims made that mature after 3 years.

How much is a tail typically in this area? After a year? two? I'm just curious if a job doesn't pan out to what I think it is and have to fork some dough over.

Thanks yaaaaaaallll

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

My sister tail up in Maryland was $40k after 5 years.

So if you are looking at 3 years tail. That comes out to around $25-30k give or take (assuming claims made costs is around $12-15k) at year 3.

 

[turnupthegas]

Thanks for the response. How common is it for another group to pick up your nose?

Are most places claims made or occurrence based?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[2ndyear]

Thanks for the response. How common is it for another group to pick up your nose?

Are most places claims made or occurrence based?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I believe some AMC's are claims made with tail 'included' but I can't verify as I've never worked for one. I believe Sheridan is this way. I looked into nose insurance and nobody would sell it across state lines. And there's lots of state lines in the north east. In general I've found hospital employed jobs tend to offer claims made +/- a graduated tail policy based on years of employment (and subject to negotiation). You can always ask your new employer to contribute to a tail if needed. Might not work, but it depends on how wanted you are. Essentially a signing bonus.

 

[aneftp]

I believe some AMC's are claims made with tail 'included' but I can't verify as I've never worked for one. I believe Sheridan is this way. I looked into nose insurance and nobody would sell it across state lines. And there's lots of state lines in the north east. In general I've found hospital employed jobs tend to offer claims made +/- a graduated tail policy based on years of employment (and subject to negotiation). You can always ask your new employer to contribute to a tail if needed. Might not work, but it depends on how wanted you are. Essentially a signing bonus.

Sheridan mednax (American anesthesiology) team health 100% either self insured (no tail required)

People may get confused with other side companies but those big 3 are 100% guaranteed to have no tail needed once you leave.

Now don't get confused with those companies picking up your tail coverage from a previous employer. They will not do that.

 

[Scotty_G]

NAPA is not self insured

 

[Mman]

NAPA is not self insured

that would seem to be pretty stupid. I mean once you get big enough, if you don't self insure you are just wasting money. Because paying a 3rd party to insure you means they are going to make profit off of your premiums.

 

[Scotty_G]

Well let me rephrase if you work for them on a per diem basis they use a 3rd party. I just assumed it was the same if you are full time but who knows.

 

[turnupthegas]

Thanks for the replies. In regards to paying a tail, is it a one-time fee or paid over the course of a year or so?

Thanks again!

 

[aneftp]

Thanks for the replies. In regards to paying a tail, is it a one-time fee or paid over the course of a year or so?

Thanks again!

It's usually due within 30 days in FULL unless u wanna to take out a loan

 

[turnupthegas]

This whole becoming a doctor thing is expensive AF.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[TIVA23]

Don't waste your money, get a Lambo.

 

[aneftp]

This whole becoming a doctor thing is expensive AF.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

U gotta look at the entire package when evaluating a job. Benefits. Paid vacation. Hours worked. Time on call. Malpractice costs or potential cost should always been included as well.

And if on partnership track. Never buy into the old line "don't worry about malpractice cause we will cover it". Has very different meanings whos picking up the tab