Mandatory residencies by 2020?

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rph3664 said:
A P4 who posts on another board I frequent says that the APhA is proposing this. Have any of you heard this, and is it true?
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Nope.

And how does APhA plan on enforcing this??
 
While I think this is a good idea I do also think that the current medical model needs to catch up with the current pharmacy education before mandatory residency becomes a real possibility. I think pharmacists are becoming too overtrained for the most jobs - especially retail. I would have no problem supporting mandatory PGY1s for staff hospitals and mandatory PGY2 for clinical positions.
 
She's being pressured to do a residency, and is not going to do it because she really doesn't want to spend a year working 60-plus hours a week at 1/3 or 1/2 salary, carrying a pager, etc. She's very aware that this may impair her getting a job but she just doesn't want to do it.
 
StriveForGlory said:
While I think this is a good idea I do also think that the current medical model needs to catch up with the current pharmacy education before mandatory residency becomes a real possibility. I think pharmacists are becoming too overtrained for the most jobs - especially retail. I would have no problem supporting mandatory PGY1s for staff hospitals and mandatory PGY2 for clinical positions.
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You don't need a PGY1 to be a staff pharmacist at a hospital.
 
rph3664 said:
A P4 who posts on another board I frequent says that the APhA is proposing this. Have any of you heard this, and is it true?
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your P4 friend is wrong...It´s ASHP´s idea and they are advocating for it, not requiring it. How can a lobby group "require" anything? think about it...
 
It's actually ACCP and their 2020 vision.
I read the paper, and honestly it scared me. It said it advocates residency for all pharmacists that directly engage in patient care. That would include retail pharmacists as well (but I think not hospital staff pharmacists or mail order pharmacists who don't ever see a patient).

As I said somewhere here a few days ago, a hospital told me that a residency will be required for hospital pharmacists who deal with patients to people who graduate after 2015. Not sure how true this is, and who this requirement will be set by if it exists. Perhaps individual hospitals?
 
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Will never happen.. and if it did, it would be bastardized by community pharmacy. The only way to have that many residencies available for every new grad would be for retail chains to get involved... :laugh:
 
bacillus1 said:
It's actually ACCP and their 2020 vision.
I read the paper, and honestly it scared me. It said it advocates residency for all pharmacists that directly engage in patient care. That would include retail pharmacists as well (but I think not hospital staff pharmacists or mail order pharmacists who don't ever see a patient).

As I said somewhere here a few days ago, a a residency will be required for hospital pharmacists who deal with patients to people who graduate after 2015. Not sure how true this is, and who this requirement will be set by if it exists. Perhaps individual hospitals?
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Actually, you're wrong. It was both ASHP and ACCP. whoops...
 
You don't need a PGY1 to be a staff pharmacist at a hospital.
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I am well aware of this. I said that I would be in support of it, not that it was currently a requirement.
 
StriveForGlory said:
While I think this is a good idea I do also think that the current medical model needs to catch up with the current pharmacy education before mandatory residency becomes a real possibility. I think pharmacists are becoming too overtrained for the most jobs - especially retail. I would have no problem supporting mandatory PGY1s for staff hospitals and mandatory PGY2 for clinical positions.
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I'm going to be extremely blunt, and tell you that you don't know what you're talking about. As a B.Sc.Pharm. who has been COMPLETELY unable to find a job for almost 7 months because of the Pharm.D./PGY requirement that's currently in effect in my region, I predict this will last about as long as the proposal in the late 1990s to require a Pharm.D. for licensure, or for that matter hospitals that go all RN (bye-bye, LPNs) and then have to rescind that when they can't even import all the nurses they need from the Philippines or South Africa.

Yeah, hospitals LOOOOOOOOVE having PGYs around because they have a pharmacist for a year or two at 1/3 to 1/2 salary.
 
Caverject said:
your P4 friend is wrong...It´s ASHP´s idea and they are advocating for it, not requiring it. How can a lobby group "require" anything? think about it...
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Got the initials wrong; my bad. They could still propose it, FWIW.
 
rph3664 said:
I'm going to be extremely blunt, and tell you that you don't know what you're talking about. As a B.Sc.Pharm. who has been COMPLETELY unable to find a job for almost 7 months because of the Pharm.D./PGY requirement that's currently in effect in my region, I predict this will last about as long as the proposal in the late 1990s to require a Pharm.D. for licensure, or for that matter hospitals that go all RN (bye-bye, LPNs) and then have to rescind that when they can't even import all the nurses they need from the Philippines or South Africa.

Yeah, hospitals LOOOOOOOOVE having PGYs around because they have a pharmacist for a year or two at 1/3 to 1/2 salary.
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I disagree with you completely... You are unwilling to relocate to the jobs. You still carry baggage from your last position. Part of the problem with those who have experience is that they consistently want things done 'their' way. Which often corresponds to the only 'right' way (in their opinion). It is far more frustrating to deal with people who dig trenches than those who are flexible.

With zero experience - no PGY1, no practice experience at all, I was offered positions in hospitals. Several of my classmates did as well.

You are not effectively selling yourself. It's quite obvious you have great attributes, among these being well spoken and passion/zeal. Furthermore, you need a change in latitude/attitude.

Granted = this is just my opinion
 
rph3664 said:
Yeah, hospitals LOOOOOOOOVE having PGYs around because they have a pharmacist for a year or two at 1/3 to 1/2 salary.
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That's not entirely true. Good portion of resident salary is federally subsidized. So less output on salary part is true. However, it takes money, time, and effort to put together a residency program and that doesn't come cheap. And the goal of residency isn't to put the residents to do staffing.

Financial gain is not the reason hospitals run a residency program. We believe this is one of the ways to advance our profession and improve patient care. You can agree to disagree. But I know I'm right.

In the end, regardless it becomes mandatory or not, it will be an unwritten rule for hospitals to look for and hire residency trained pharmacists.

You can either get on the train or complain that the train is moving too fast...and wait around.
 
if residents were so cheap and easy to keep around, there would be more of them.

Being at a huge program this year compared to a small one last year has definitely helped me learn more about establishing and maintaining a residency.
 
rph3664 said:
Got the initials wrong; my bad. They could still propose it, FWIW.
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Propose it to whom?

ASHP/ACCP/APHA/ETC do not license pharmacists. They do not set hospital/organizational hiring requirements. They don't decide who gets to take the NAPLEX.

A residency could be required for licensure someday, but it would take way more than one or all of those organizations above saying, "We want this to happen."
 
Might be a good idea actually. Only they should limit number of residency spots and so new schools grads can't get in. I love it. :laugh:
 
All I know is that we have had some students come through that don't know anything and some that were really great. Both types of students came from "new" and "old" schools but the majority of the ones who were not up to par came from new schools. Most of the job postings I see for hospital pharmacists/clinical positions say "residency preferred". I even saw one that said "residency strongly preferred" and it wasn't even for a "clinical" position. Maybe they should implement some sort of system like medicine (Step I, II, etc.). The competition would suck, though.

But, I do not see the benefit of requiring community pharmacists to do a residency.
 
rxlea said:
All I know is that we have had some students come through that don't know anything and some that were really great. Both types of students came from "new" and "old" schools but the majority of the ones who were not up to par came from new schools. Most of the job postings I see for hospital pharmacists/clinical positions say "residency preferred". I even saw one that said "residency strongly preferred" and it wasn't even for a "clinical" position. Maybe they should implement some sort of system like medicine (Step I, II, etc.). The competition would suck, though.

But, I do not see the benefit of requiring community pharmacists to do a residency.
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Community hospitals have difficulty getting (and keeping) residency trained staff. That being said - it never hurts to shoot for the moon. Even if you don't have a residency, it's perfectly kosher to apply to a community hospital without one. Worst case scenario? They say no.
 
aboveliquidice said:
I disagree with you completely... You are unwilling to relocate to the jobs. You still carry baggage from your last position. Part of the problem with those who have experience is that they consistently want things done 'their' way. Which often corresponds to the only 'right' way (in their opinion). It is far more frustrating to deal with people who dig trenches than those who are flexible.

With zero experience - no PGY1, no practice experience at all, I was offered positions in hospitals. Several of my classmates did as well.

You are not effectively selling yourself. It's quite obvious you have great attributes, among these being well spoken and passion/zeal. Furthermore, you need a change in latitude/attitude.

Granted = this is just my opinion
Click to expand...

How am I supposed to get a job when I can't even get an interview? I apply for jobs, send them my resume, call them to see if they have received it, and NOTHING. Nada. Zero. Zip.

And meanwhile, people who have burned all kinds of bridges can get hired at the drop of a hat. Licensure issues, a long history of walking out on jobs without giving notice, another former colleague who literally did not do anything (he would just sit there and watch us work), etc. and people stand in line to hire them.
 
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rph3664 said:
How am I supposed to get a job when I can't even get an interview? I apply for jobs, send them my resume, call them to see if they have received it, and NOTHING. Nada. Zero. Zip.

And meanwhile, people who have burned all kinds of bridges can get hired at the drop of a hat. Licensure issues, a long history of walking out on jobs without giving notice, another former colleague who literally did not do anything (he would just sit there and watch us work), etc. and people stand in line to hire them.
Click to expand...

😴
 
rxlea said:
All I know is that we have had some students come through that don't know anything and some that were really great. Both types of students came from "new" and "old" schools but the majority of the ones who were not up to par came from new schools. Most of the job postings I see for hospital pharmacists/clinical positions say "residency preferred". I even saw one that said "residency strongly preferred" and it wasn't even for a "clinical" position. Maybe they should implement some sort of system like medicine (Step I, II, etc.). The competition would suck, though.

But, I do not see the benefit of requiring community pharmacists to do a residency.
Click to expand...

lol i was wondering about 5 posts up if you'd pop into this thread and say new schools sucked monkey testicles again.
 
confettiflyer said:
lol i was wondering about 5 posts up if you'd pop into this thread and say new schools sucked monkey testicles again.
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Not all new schools "suck monkey testicles". We actually had one student from a "new" school blow this other student out of the water who was from an "established school". It was sort of amusing. Depends on the student.
 
confettiflyer said:
lol i was wondering about 5 posts up if you'd pop into this thread and say new schools sucked monkey testicles again.
Click to expand...

I am also tired of seeing every thread go this way. It seems no matter what the issue, people have to scream and point at the "NEW SCHOOLS ZOMG!" It's overdone.

I'm finishing up my PharmD at a new school, but half my coursework was completed at a Top 10 school, so I've attended both, unlike people who have never set foot in a new school but know ALL about them. 🙄

So far, I've done my APPE rotations exclusively with students from my former institution. Some of them have been very smart, some of them have been total slackers and some of them have been *****ic... my own "new school" classmates occupy the same spectrum. I'm not going to say anything more specific because I'm not anonymous on this forum. I do think that the vast majority of students from ALL schools are probably "just OK" to "pretty good" on rotations, especially starting out. The ones who want to improve and grow over the year do so, and the ones who want to coast just keep on "getting by."

There really are students at "new schools" who are excellent, have competitive stats, and went there by choice for whatever reason. There really are students at "Top 10" public schools who are not that hot but got in because 90%+ of the spots are reserved for state residents and the talent pool just isn't that deep. Really. I know that flies in the face of what people want to think, but it's true.
 
All4MyDaughter said:
I am also tired of seeing every thread go this way. It seems no matter what the issue, people have to scream and point at the "NEW SCHOOLS ZOMG!" It's overdone.

I'm finishing up my PharmD at a new school, but half my coursework was completed at a Top 10 school, so I've attended both, unlike people who have never set foot in a new school but know ALL about them. 🙄

So far, I've done my APPE rotations exclusively with students from my former institution. Some of them have been very smart, some of them have been total slackers and some of them have been *****ic... my own "new school" classmates occupy the same spectrum. I'm not going to say anything more specific because I'm not anonymous on this forum. I do think that the vast majority of students from ALL schools are probably "just OK" to "pretty good" on rotations, especially starting out. The ones who want to improve and grow over the year do so, and the ones who want to coast just keep on "getting by."

There really are students at "new schools" who are excellent, have competitive stats, and went there by choice for whatever reason. There really are students at "Top 10" public schools who are not that hot but got in because 90%+ of the spots are reserved for state residents and the talent pool just isn't that deep. Really. I know that flies in the face of what people want to think, but it's true.
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Yup.
 
The NABP/ACPE/state boards have made no comment on requiring residencies. Those are the important players in licensing. Right now, there are only enough residency spots for about 10-15% of grads, and about 90% will end up in direct patient care settings, i.e. hospital and community.
 
StriveForGlory said:
While I think this is a good idea I do also think that the current medical model needs to catch up with the current pharmacy education before mandatory residency becomes a real possibility. I think pharmacists are becoming too overtrained for the most jobs - especially retail. I would have no problem supporting mandatory PGY1s for staff hospitals and mandatory PGY2 for clinical positions.
Click to expand...
I agree. Hell, I'd even say bring back the BS Pharm for retail and save the PharmD for hospital/clinical.
 
I am rather against it, I think.

On one hand, I can see the value of more training, since residency is a practical hands-on experience that helps a new graduate to be better in their job. On the other hand, the school should be able to teach the basics and how to get the rest, and then it is up to the student. A good student gets as much as out of rotations as he/she can, and with some training, about the same as a new resident would require, be able to do the job. And why take a bad student and spend yet more time trying to make them better? Let the failures fail... and creating all the residencies necessary to get everyone into one would be too much effort, both in terms of time and money, better applied elsewhere.
 
rph3664 said:
How am I supposed to get a job when I can't even get an interview? I apply for jobs, send them my resume, call them to see if they have received it, and NOTHING. Nada. Zero. Zip.

And meanwhile, people who have burned all kinds of bridges can get hired at the drop of a hat. Licensure issues, a long history of walking out on jobs without giving notice, another former colleague who literally did not do anything (he would just sit there and watch us work), etc. and people stand in line to hire them.
Click to expand...

That tells me there is something wrong with you. If no one bothers - either you really, really suck at writing resumes and cover letters, or you carry a black mark (which is also possible, pharmacy is a small world).
 
steveysmith54 said:
Might be a good idea actually. Only they should limit number of residency spots and so new schools grads can't get in. I love it. :laugh:
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This is exactly right. Not to necessarily keep out new grads from new schools, but just to keep out s----- new grads period (not like the competition for pharmacy school is what it was). Oh yeah, and it is a good idea because it will keep pharmacist salaries high like the MD model... :meanie:
 
ACCP also supports the development of a temporary alternative pathway for displaying residency-equivalent competencies for practicing pharmacists who will not want to backtrack and complete a residency.

Link.

The way I see it, these position statements are a reasonable response to the current state of pharmacy education. Many pharmacists feel that the ACPE isn't doing a good enough job maintaining across the board consistency of the graduates, but the organizations don't have the ability to change that. By recommending a mandatory pharmacy residency, graduates will necessarily go through a process that ASHP/ACCP/APhA do have significant control over.

The issue with available residency positions is a serious issue, and the organizations realize that. It's explicitly acknowledged that in order for mandatory residency training to take off, the graduate->resident->practitioner chain has to be balanced.
 
IndustryPharmD said:
That tells me there is something wrong with you. If no one bothers - either you really, really suck at writing resumes and cover letters, or you carry a black mark (which is also possible, pharmacy is a small world).
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Have you been job hunting lately? Everything's done online. Period.

I'm not the only person who's experiencing this, BTW. As for the possibility of a black mark, most of my applications have been in cities where I have never lived, and in some cases never even visited.

If I do get another interview, it's going to be awfully tempting to walk into the interview office and have the following conversation, because that's probably what it's gonna boil down to.

"You really don't want to hire me, do you?"

"No."

"I didn't think so."
 
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rph3664 said:
Have you been job hunting lately? Everything's done online. Period.

I'm not the only person who's experiencing this, BTW. As for the possibility of a black mark, most of my applications have been in cities where I have never lived, and in some cases never even visited.

If I do get another interview, it's going to be awfully tempting to walk into the interview office and have the following conversation, because that's probably what it's gonna boil down to.

"You really don't want to hire me, do you?"

"No."

"I didn't think so."
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In fact, just got a new job in June. With relocation package, too. And the best jobs are, as they have always been, found not online, but through word-of-mouth. 😉

And even online, say, through LinkedIn (which has been a great job hunting tool for myself and my colleagues who are experienced, obviously not something for new grads), you really need to be able to present yourself in the most advantageous light.

You said yourself that people are being hired, so it is not a problem with the employers not wanting to hire, it is a problem with you not presenting yourself as someone they would want to hire.

Have you asked someone who is NOT a close friend or a relative look at what you are sending out? I haven't realized just how blah my resume was until a professional looked at it and identified several areas that needed to be completely revamped.
 
IndustryPharmD said:
Have you asked someone who is NOT a close friend or a relative look at what you are sending out? I haven't realized just how blah my resume was until a professional looked at it and identified several areas that needed to be completely revamped.
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That might be something I should consider. My resume is just places and dates, with no further detail about jobs. Never needed details before.

Where could I go to do that? There's a community college and several small 4-year colleges in my area; would someone from there be willing to do this?
 
rph3664 said:
That might be something I should consider. My resume is just places and dates, with no further detail about jobs. Never needed details before.
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No wonder it goes straight to the trash can everywhere. :laugh: What else is one supposed to do when receiving a "resume" like this?

Where could I go to do that? There's a community college and several small 4-year colleges in my area; would someone from there be willing to do this?
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I would start by reading a decent resume book. Say, one that APhA publishes, Pharmacists' Guide to Resumes and Interviewing or something along those lines. Just so you don't waste your time and reviewers'. And rewrite it based on that.

Then work with someone to improve from there. I have no idea how good college career people might be, never used them myself. I guess, worth a try.

I would avoid firms advertising resume services unless one came highly recommended - I remember reading a WSJ article how all kinds of people took advantage of the high unemployment, and charge a few hundred bucks to send someone back a half-baked product, and full of typos to boot.

If you know anyone who has been in HR for a while, you can ask them, too.

I would almost volunteer to take a look at it, but certainly not before it is actually filled out.
 
Its Z said:
Will you take a look at mine?
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If there is anyone on the boards who is least likely to need my advice, that would be you. 🙂 But for you - anything.*

*Anything involving significant sums of money, material goods or property, or significant time commitment, or illegal activities, is specifically excluded until further notice. Persons under 18 years of age and living outside the continental United States and where prohibited by law are excluded. Taxes and hidden fees may apply. Anything I am missing because it is still damn morning may apply. :laugh:
 
IndustryPharmD said:
If there is anyone on the boards who is least likely to need my advice, that would be you. 🙂 But for you - anything.*

*Anything involving significant sums of money, material goods or property, or significant time commitment, or illegal activities, is specifically excluded until further notice. Persons under 18 years of age and living outside the continental United States and where prohibited by law are excluded. Taxes and hidden fees may apply. Anything I am missing because it is still damn morning may apply. :laugh:
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How would you write on my resume/CV what I've done over the past year? I wonder what people would say after reading that...
 
IndustryPharmD said:
*Anything involving significant sums of money, material goods or property, or significant time commitment, or illegal activities, is specifically excluded until further notice. Persons under 18 years of age and living outside the continental United States and where prohibited by law are excluded. Taxes and hidden fees may apply. Anything I am missing because it is still damn morning may apply. :laugh:
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So you'll wash and wax my car?

Awesome!

👍
 
Caverject said:
How would you write on my resume/CV what I've done over the past year? I wonder what people would say after reading that...
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Umm, WHAT have you done over the past year?

I think I can put a positive spin on just about anything short of going to prison for murdering your previous employer. 😀

Off to work, or I will have to work on MY resume. 😀
 
Its Z said:
So you'll wash and wax my car?

Awesome!

👍
Click to expand...

Assuming you bring it here to NYS, and loaded with rare chocolates - sure! I can use some exercise. Even though today I fit perfectly into a skirt I wore my P-1 year. 👍 Yay!
 
Caverject said:
How would you write on my resume/CV what I've done over the past year? I wonder what people would say after reading that...
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Put all those videos and pictures into a short movie like documentary. Put that on a thumb drive or upload it online and put a link on your resume. Then warn "viewer discretion advised."
 
Ackj said:
I agree. Hell, I'd even say bring back the BS Pharm for retail and save the PharmD for hospital/clinical.
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They never should have done away with the BS in Pharm. It worked just as intended for 30 plus years. Pharmacy schools' looking to make more money is the only reason the PharmD became mandatory.

Prior to the mandatory PharmD if you wanted to distinguish yourself you did an extra year and got your PharmD. Now days everyone has a PharmD so to distinguish yourself you have to do a residency. What's next when everyone has a residency? Do we require all pharmacists to complete med school after getting a PharmD and 2 years of residency? It is getting to be ridiculous.

I think it is funny that for 30 years a BS in Pharm was good enough to land a hospital job. All of a sudden in the last 5 years you need a PharmD and a two year residency to land a hospital job. A bunch of BS if you ask me. Everyone one looking to make as much money as they can.
 
^
^
^

Have you had your coffee yet? It's a beautiful morning. Go outside and walk around a block.
 
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