Manipulating the match

[radiodog]

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Is anyone else somewhat uneasy about how programs and applicants manipulate the match? I've heard so many rumors that some programs need you to tell them they are number one on your list. I have also heard that some programs contact applicants and pressure them to rank them number one.

I really don't know what to believe but if anyone has any comments or experiences with this please post. Is there an advantage to let a program know that they are your number one? If a program is your number two what should you tell them?

I personally wish that all programs would rank applicants how they see fit and that applicants did the same.

 

[Gfunk6]

Here's an important lesson that I learned last year . . . don't try to manipulate the Match yourself. A couple of PD's called me last year and I made the mistake of re-arranging my rank list based on what they told me. Never do this. I was told not to but I did it anyway, human nature I suppose.

The best advice I can give you is this: RANK PROGRAMS IN EXACTLY THE ORDER THAT YOU WOULD WANT TO GO TO. If you get an interview at a top notch place, then rank them 1st if you'd love to go there the most. Don't worry about other applicants or what the programs tell you. Many, many posters on these boards will tell you that they left a program with a "good vibe" or a "bad vibe" and this turned out to be totally wrong.

As to telling a program that you will rank them #1 . . . I would do it but it's a personal decision that may or may not have an impact on the rank list. There's language that people use:

"You are at the top of my list" = 1
"I want to rank you in my top 3" = #3
etc.

Phrases like "I will rank you highly" are generally taken as too general to be of any value.

Programs at equivalent tiers/regions tend to talk. For instance, the Stanford/UCSF PDs or MSKCC/Harvard PDs may discuss applicants but likely not a top 10 program with a third tier program.

What I'm saying is that this process is quite complicated, but you will do best if you rank as I advised. You may try to manipulate things in your favor by telling programs specific things and this may or may not help you. It's a shady game we play.

 

[stephew]

be very careful. express your serious interest in a program but telling them where youre raking them can be disasterous; some will consider you in violation and ding you. tell them you really want to be there but avoid giving them a number -if pushed, we'll they're in violation

 

[radiodog]

Thanks for the advice. It sounds like things are starting to get cleaned up as ERAS cracks down on violators. Its just frustating as a student suddenly being exposed to this political world and not knowing what to do.

 

[radiodog]

Does anyone know how far programs typically go down their rank order list? I imagine that the very top programs (MSK, MDA, Harvard) don't go too far down but how about the next tier? It seems that since all these programs interview the same group of candidates that some very good programs don't match their top choices.

Is this where telling a program you are ranking them higly comes in? Would a program rank a candidate higher because they seem more interested than someone else who they think is a stronger applicant?

Any thoughts?

 

[stephew]

it really depends. remember some places interview the same people are the top tiers but the top tiers take those peopel so they go gown further.

 

[radonc]

agreed

 

[Soze]

be very careful. express your serious interest in a program but telling them where youre raking them can be disasterous; some will consider you in violation and ding you.

If a program considers telling them where you're ranking them a violation, they're wrong.

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/about_res/ensuring.html

Under the "Match Communications" portion of the above URL...

"Although the Match Participation Agreement does not prohibit either an applicant or program director from volunteering how one plans to rank the other, it is a violation to request such information"

In other words, you can tell them how you plan to rank them, but can't request where you will be ranked.

 

[stephew]

trust me on this- some still consider it a violation because realize: people feel they have to "volunteer" the information. In fact most people feel they hae to tell everyone they are being ranked number one. so there are requests, and there are "requests". just be aware of this. express your great interest but do be aware of these things.

 

[Adawaal]

trust me on this- some still consider it a violation because realize: people feel they have to "volunteer" the information. In fact most people feel they hae to tell everyone they are being ranked number one. so there are requests, and there are "requests". just be aware of this. express your great interest but do be aware of these things.

Soze is right about the technical aspect of a violation. But steph is on the mark about such a declaration making the PD feel like they have to reciprocate. It's kind of like the first time your lover tells you, "I love you." Regardless of how you feel, it's kinda hanging right out there, and you feel like you have to respond in some form or fashion. 🙄

 

[stephew]

its more the other way: candidates feel they have to say something (and the pressure is real). PDs feel pretty comfortable holding their tounge usually.

 

[emtji]

i doubt programs ding you. i tell my #1 that they're my #1 and say nothing more to the rest. programs want people who want to be there and at the end of the day, it's damn near impossible to differentiate one person in a black suit with great grades from another.

that said, i did have one prelim med program ask me where i was going to rank them, an obvious match violation. i also answered honestly. my guess is that the interviewer didn't realize it was an illegal question. oh well.

 

[stephew]

dont be fooled. the interview is EXTREMELY important. there are many threads on this from last year. med students consistency underestimate the interivew. and no- its not just that a really bad one will torpedo you- there is an EXTRAORDINARY amount of movement on the rank list based on the interview. particuarly when the cv's are all great on paper and the suits are all dark. You should consider the playing field level once the interview starts. You and the guy with the 6 nature publications are on equal ground for all intents and purposes. doubt this if you wish, but are you willing to risk it? In 5 years, reassess.

and chances are your interview did realize it was an illegal question but thinks of it like going 5 miles over the speed limit. a wrong view, but its out there. And yes, the flip side are PDs/chairs who will ding you if they feel you'll being unethical about the match. just beware.

i doubt programs ding you. i tell my #1 that they're my #1 and say nothing more to the rest. programs want people who want to be there and at the end of the day, it's damn near impossible to differentiate one person in a black suit with great grades from another.

that said, i did have one prelim med program ask me where i was going to rank them, an obvious match violation. i also answered honestly. my guess is that the interviewer didn't realize it was an illegal question. oh well.

 

[emtji]

true. i just can't imagine that anyone takes an interview not seriously. if someone takes the time out of their day to talk with you, i can't imagine someone not taking it seriously.

as for telling the #1 that they're #1, lots of people do it. i doubt it changes the rank list much if at all.

dont be fooled. the interview is EXTREMELY important. there are many threads on this from last year. med students consistency underestimate the interivew. and no- its not just that a really bad one will torpedo you- there is an EXTRAORDINARY amount of movement on the rank list based on the interview. particuarly when the cv's are all great on paper and the suits are all dark. You should consider the playing field level once the interview starts. You and the guy with the 6 nature publications are on equal ground for all intents and purposes. doubt this if you wish, but are you willing to risk it? In 5 years, reassess.

and chances are your interview did realize it was an illegal question but thinks of it like going 5 miles over the speed limit. a wrong view, but its out there. And yes, the flip side are PDs/chairs who will ding you if they feel you'll being unethical about the match. just beware.

 

[stephew]

appearnig less that fully interested might effect your standing on the rank list there is NO question. it could move you down a notch or 10.

for whatever rationale that for the life of my i can't understand there was a lot of nay-saying about the importance of the interivew among students last year. ive been on 7 years of interviewing committees and i cannot tell you how wrong they are. its one of the most important days.

 

[Zap]

true. i just can't imagine that anyone takes an interview not seriously. if someone takes the time out of their day to talk with you, i can't imagine someone not taking it seriously.

When somebody does poorly at an interview it can have nothing to do with that person not having taken it seriously. In addition to wanting top notch candidates, each program is looking for residents that fit in and that are decent, normal people who will be pleasant to work with. Four years is a looooong time, and radiation oncology programs are generally small so it hurts to have a bad apple in the bunch. More than once have I seen an amazing candidate on paper not even get ranked because of personality issues. These people were being themselves at the interview and that is what did them in. There are so many strong applicants right now that programs can be picky about whom they take. So the take home is that if you are a decent, normal person, with OK stats you can be more attractive than someone with amazing stats but lacking in the "human" areas.

 

[Adawaal]

dont be fooled. the interview is EXTREMELY important. there are many threads on this from last year. med students consistency underestimate the interivew. and no- its not just that a really bad one will torpedo you- there is an EXTRAORDINARY amount of movement on the rank list based on the interview. particuarly when the cv's are all great on paper and the suits are all dark. You should consider the playing field level once the interview starts. You and the guy with the 6 nature publications are on equal ground for all intents and purposes. doubt this if you wish, but are you willing to risk it? In 5 years, reassess.

and chances are your interview did realize it was an illegal question but thinks of it like going 5 miles over the speed limit. a wrong view, but its out there. And yes, the flip side are PDs/chairs who will ding you if they feel you'll being unethical about the match. just beware.

This is soooooo true. Anyone we interview is great on paper. Once they get here, I'm looking for how well people will "fit" with the program. Let's face it, just about anyone can make it through a Rad Onc residency, certainly anyone on the interview list. I want to know if I can stand working with this person for the next couple of years.