"marrying up/marrying down"

[lagirl213]

Hi,
My best friend is medical grad intern and her boyfriend is a cop (with a bachelors degree) and she is getting so much criticism from everyone around her. I just wanted to know how people in this position handle this when situations like this arise? I was interested in hearing what everyone had to say about this- especially from a women's perspective. Sadly, in this society, we deem as marrying up if we marry someone with an income higher than ours, and so forth. So for all the women doctors out there, who ARE NOT married to or dating doctors, but rather dating someone who has only but a bachelors degree, or lower, are there problems later in life because of educational differences? or income differences? how do you feel about that? Do you get a lot of harsh criticism from family members and friends around you?

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[illegallysmooth]

Hi,
My best friend is medical grad intern and her boyfriend is a cop (with a bachelors degree) and she is getting so much criticism from everyone around her. I just wanted to know how people in this position handle this when situations like this arise? I was interested in hearing what everyone had to say about this- especially from a women's perspective. Sadly, in this society, we deem as marrying up if we marry someone with an income higher than ours, and so forth. So for all the women doctors out there, who ARE NOT married to or dating doctors, but rather dating someone who has only but a bachelors degree, or lower, are there problems later in life because of educational differences? or income differences? how do you feel about that? Do you get a lot of harsh criticism from family members and friends around you?

I'm heading to medical school and my boyfriend has a BA in media studies. He decided he didn't want to work in that field and so now he's trying to work his way up in the field of hospitality and management. I worry sometimes about our long-term potential. He is the kindest and most trustworthy man I've ever met, but there is a sizable difference in our intellects and career goals. I don't really worry about what other people will say, but I worry more about my feelings changing down the road when I'm constantly surrounded by people who are more successful and, frankly, smarter.

I think if two people can share interests and maintain respect for one another, it will work out. If one becomes contemptuous, it won't.

 

[Nupe954]

It can be a daunting task to put up with the snickers and whispers of how you are dating someone "below you" or "you can do better". I am a male and unfortunately in this world it is stereotypically assumed that a man who is of higher intellect and financial status can date that waitress down the street and there is no problem. When a female does the same thing it is a world crisis! I have caught myself judging women like yourself in a similar situation.

My fiance's best friend is in your predictment she is a rising exec in burger king corporate and her boyfriend is still getting his undergrad, they have broken up many times all because he doesnt understand whats on the other side of the fence. If you think the relationship is worth it and are willing to make it work then the first thing to do is set is expectations as far what he will encounter being in a relationship with a female doctor. He may not like what you are telling him but it is better to get it out of the way now than have him feeling insecure and "less of a man" later in your relationship.

 

[illegallysmooth]

to be honest, exec at burger king is not all that impressive. in the end, it's still just a burger company and she's rapidly replaceable. if she feels superior, that's kind of messed up. if she were at a hedge fund, that'd be another story.

i've worked at GE, used to be one of the world's most respected companies, and i find that the execs a few to many layers above me were not that brilliant or better, they just have a bigger ego. almost everyone in the corporate cog is just that, a cog.

social status is an artificial construct. i have much more respect for people that can see this objectively.

Yeah, go tell the CFO at Burger King that's it's just a burger company and therefore not impressive.

 

[illegallysmooth]

honestly it's not that impressive. what exactly are you impressed with? the title or his financial compensation? you'll see if you've worked in the corporate world. it's more about just surviving the yearly annual reviews and advancing while your competition gets attritioned away. large corporations generally function very well with constant replacement of top officials.

the hardest thing is probably starting up your own company as an entrepreneur. building something from scratch garners much more respect. thus, bill gates & steve jobs are much more impactful than a bunch of middling execs who are easily replaceable.

again, i don't see why people have to get all caught up in the social status thing. if you're happy with your SO, quit worrying about what others think.

You're sort of ridiculous, IMO. Would it be more impressive if the person is the CFO of a computer tech company? For someone who is SO unconcerned with social status, you seem to have a lot to say about the UNimpressive accomplishments of other (hypothetical) people.

 

[Velocity]

Hi,
My best friend is medical grad intern and her boyfriend is a cop (with a bachelors degree) and she is getting so much criticism from everyone around her. I just wanted to know how people in this position handle this when situations like this arise?

The same way you'd deal with it if someone wants to criticize something else about your life. Honestly, if she and her boyfriend are happy and compatible then who cares? Tell people to mind their business and not say anything about it until their own love lives are the epitome of perfection. Let her joke that at least she'll be able to speed to the hospital and not have to worry about speeding tickets anymore.

 

[illegallysmooth]

---illegally"smooth"

I think you're making a strawman argument. You're the one trying to make it seem like CFO's are important or something. What's the focus on Financial Officers? Did you apply to goldman sachs or do your undergrad in econ?

If you reread, you'll see that I wrote that entrepreneurship spirit is what matters. Founding/building something is much more important than being an exec of any large corporation. The importance of Steve Jobs and Gates lie in the fact that they built everything from the ground up, not that they are in the tech industry. I pointed them out because they are quite visible to everyone these days, but if you like Sam Walton, Carnegie, or Ray Kroc (founder of McDonald's if you did not know), that's cool too. Nameless middle to senior management is nothing to be proud of.

---

Back to main discussion: the whole point is you and your partner should make your own decisions and ignore what other people think.

I didn't have an "argument," just the opinion that your opinion is sort of ridiculous. I don't have a "focus" on CFOs, I used that example because the "burger king exec" was brought up. OK, entrepreneurship matters. I will now defer to you, exclusively, to find out which things are more important than others. I will also consult you before giving anyone credit for anything (except entrepreneurship, because you have already told us this is important) so that you can tell me what people should be proud of.

 

[illegallysmooth]

dude bro, why don't you go work for a couple of years in the real world and grow some vision. it's really not that special to be an exec. you seem to be a fresh-faced about to enter med school type. e.g., class of 2014 acceptance.

and quit trying to steer the conversation away from the original point.

I've been working in the real word for 7 years. Quit trying to steer the convo away? Yes that is my objective! I didn't realize it was so unheard of on SDN, due to my aforementioned fresh face, probably. Obviously medical school will give me the ability to judge the worthiness of all others' accomplishments. I can't wait!

 

[illegallysmooth]

um, excuse me? who is getting the big head going to med school?

OK, let me walk you through this.

1. You imply that since I'm a couple years behind you, I'm too "fresh-faced" to know anything about the topic. You, however, seem to think you're well-equiped to judge how impressive or unimpressive the accomplishments of other people in different fields are.

2. From the above, I point out that medical school will give me the stated ability using a conversational tool called SARCASM.

3. You incorrectly diagnose my sarcastic statements and combine this with information about my relationship to determine that I have a big head. Since you brought it up, FYI, I am lacking in ways my boyfriend is not. He is lacking in ways I am not. Stating facts about our levels of intellect does not make me big-headed, it makes me realistic. He knows I'm smarter, and I know he's more patient.

 

[illegallysmooth]

If you think you are smarter than he is and will be constantly surrounded by people who are more successful and, frankly, smarter merely because they are going to med school, so be it.

Social status is important to some people I guess.

FYI, sarcasm is not that hard to detect. However, humor is.

Sigh. This is a labor-intensive discussion now.

Sometimes, it's sort of obvious when one person is smarter than another. You can understand this, right? Ok, so, firstly, it's not my opinion that I'm smarter of him and that makes me better. Anyone who actually knows the two of us would agree that I am smarter. This is only one quality of a person, and as I've stated, he surpasses me in other qualities. Being smarter does not make me better. Secondly, I was referring to being around people who are of greater intelligence than the general public, and if you don't think this is true of physicians than I think you are the one who needs to get out and work in the real world. My comments have absolutely nothing to do with social status. If you don't think a difference in intellect is something that affects a relationship, again, you need to get out into the real world. The attitude with which you speak of my comments that you falsely associate with social status is astounding, since you're the person on this thread knocking other people's accomplishments.

Just stop.

 

[illegallysmooth]

I am in a very well respected med school.
Do I think there are smart people here, yes.
Do I think people here are smarter than those in the real world, no.
Do I think physicians are necessarily smarter than people in the real world, no (because that makes no sense). Physicians operate within the real world just like everyone else.
They are good at one thing - treating people - this does not make them have any bigger share of "consequential knowledge" as Thomas Sowell puts it than any other segment of the society does.
[YOUTUBE]ERj3QeGw9Ok[/YOUTUBE]
The topic is Intellectuals. If intellectuals stay in their Narrow Narrow area of focus they can succeed and be brilliant, but the common trait of them to branch beyond their sliver of expertise results in the major problems of society.

I said that physicians are, on average, smarter than the general public, and that if you disagree with this, you need some real world experience. The extent to which you misread things I type continues to amuse me. The video is absolutely irrelevant.

 

[illegallysmooth]

Watch the video. You might learn something and grow some humility. Then again, miracles don't happen everyday.

People that think they are smarter than others by virtue of their very narrow-based education - fallacy.

You know what, you just changed my mind, after this thread. Perhaps physicians aren't so smart afterall!

Also, stop equating knowledge with intelligence. They aren't the same. Haven't you learned that yet?

 

[illegallysmooth]

Ad hominen attacks usually occur when fact and logic-based arguments fail.

In summation, I don't think you should necessarily view your bf as your intellectual inferior even though yes, you are going to medical school, and he is doing a BS in media studies. You may not be as smart as you think.

My God, this is so tiresome. Just stop - everything you say just brings up further things I feel like I need to correct. I don't think I'm smarter than him just because I'm going to medical school and he did a BA in an art field. I'm smarter than him because I'm smarter than him. Period. He can't read the same books as I can, he doesn't understand the same breadth and depth of topics that I can, he doesn't get certain jokes, his SAT score was less than 1000, his IQ is lower, etc etc etc. And he's more patient than me, and less jealous, and kinder, and more considerate, and better at fixing things. I don't have a big head for knowing I'm smarter than him, and he's not insecure with being less smart. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses.

The other statement that you relentlessly butcher is my contention that physicians, in general, are more intelligent than the average public. This is true. I don't care what you say to contest it or what irrelevant videos you can find. Intelligence does not equal knowedge, and it does not equal social status. Just, shut up. You respond to things that were never said and make false relationships between different concepts. I'm done arguing about this, it's useless.

 

[illegallysmooth]

Based on your logic: so if I said I got a 41 mcat, do you think that would make me smarter than you? I do not, but maybe you might think so.

I am trying to make you realize that social status is not what matters, and thus you should give your bf more credit. Surprisingly, however, you seem to think that he is not worthy, and whether you will admit openly here or not, you might think he is marrying up and you marrying down.

Marrying up or down is not a good way to think at all. What matters is how much you like them and how well you get along.

Oh my god. Are those the only 7 words you read? Go read the definition of logic and see how many times you can destroy it during this thread.

 

[illegallysmooth]

And I can tell you don't really think your bf is worthy social-status-wise. Which is what this whole thread is about.

You're a *****.

 

[smq123]

I just wanted to know how people in this position handle this when situations like this arise? I was interested in hearing what everyone had to say about this- especially from a women's perspective. Sadly, in this society, we deem as marrying up if we marry someone with an income higher than ours, and so forth. So for all the women doctors out there, who ARE NOT married to or dating doctors, but rather dating someone who has only but a bachelors degree, or lower, are there problems later in life because of educational differences? or income differences? how do you feel about that? Do you get a lot of harsh criticism from family members and friends around you?

My sister is a physician who is married to someone who didn't go to college. She hasn't gotten any harsh criticism from friends, and she pretty much ignored any criticism that she got from family. She is happy in her marriage, and that's pretty much all that matters to her.

I'm heading to medical school and my boyfriend has a BA in media studies. He decided he didn't want to work in that field and so now he's trying to work his way up in the field of hospitality and management. I worry sometimes about our long-term potential. He is the kindest and most trustworthy man I've ever met, but there is a sizable difference in our intellects and career goals. I don't really worry about what other people will say, but I worry more about my feelings changing down the road when I'm constantly surrounded by people who are more successful and, frankly, smarter.

"Differences in intellect" ultimately do not matter, and will probably change. Career goals (his AND yours) will change. The fact that he is kind and trustworthy will not. His personality should be what matters most.

I also feel bad for you if you are on your way to medical school with the expectation that you will be surrounded by smarter, more intellectual people. Sorry, but that is often not the case.

Being through medical school has taught me a few things:
- Doctors are very often not nearly as smart, intelligent, or intellectual, as the general public would like to believe. We're just not. Our many hours spent with textbooks and zebras has made us myopic. A good physician should have common sense, more than anything, and many physicians are lacking in that as well.

- I have actually never felt as stupid and "bumpkinish" as I did during my last year of med school. I hadn't followed the news, or picked up the newspaper, in a few years. I remember when my sister was an intern, and having no idea who this "Howard Dean guy" was. I couldn't hold a conversation with anyone about stuff outside of medicine....which made me sound kind of dorky and socially backward.

- Being surrounded by "smart and ambitious" people, who do nothing but want to talk about their work, is often very boring.

- Ambition in a medical student/physician often eventually manifests itself in unpleasant ways. Think about why the term "gunner" is thrown around so often.

- Kindness trumps intellect any day of the week. Being trustworthy is even better.

 

[Danae00]

.

 

[Feli]

It's just societal norms. A lot of people expect men to be men (laborer, breadwinner, and protector of the family) while women act like women (child raising, housework, socialization, etc). Some will call it "sexist," and others will say it's just an adherence to basic American standards that have worked well for generations.

For male docs, the dating pool gets bigger and bigger as they go through training and into their career. What woman doesn't want to date a rich, smart, and successful guy... and bring that guy, who has his life together, over to meet her family? A male doc/resident can date female professionals, or he could date the junior college girl working at the mall GAP store. Nobody really cares; he's the provider and worker of the family regardless of who his partner is.

For female docs (esp the poor ones who decide to be surgeons), the dating pool gets smaller and smaller as they progress through. Not only do they have less time to date/excercise/primp, but they face a ticking biological clock, increasing % of men their age "taken" (or dating younger women), and they will almost surely be questioned if they date someone who makes less money and/or has a less prestigous job than they do. If that's not enough, about 80% of hospital employees are women, so it's tough for female docs to meet a partner at the workplace (and likewise very easy for male docs to get dates from the company ink). Finally, any vacation, ma/paternity leave, etc is viewed as lazy in a hardworking profession like medicine, and female docs are therefore gonna have to accept being past their prime physical attractiveness and reproductive peak years by the time they finish training... or usually be labeled as "slacker" or "a cow" at work if they do take time off for family, having kids, etc.

The female docs are basically limited to dating/marrying medical colleagues, lawyers, MBAs, PhDs, grad engineers, pro athletes/entertainers, etc... or being questioned for "dating down." To compound things, it's sorta hard for many female docs to attract those kind of successful guys since (let's face it) most women who are highly attractive (ie the type most professional men date) didn't have to work hard, go to med school, and do a residency to find success in life. Most attractive women spent their high school and college years dating, partying, and jersey chasing... not in the library curled up with a biology textbook. I'm not saying single female docs aren't attractive sometimes, but we have to admit that a 70hr work week isn't exactly conducive to fitting in makeup in the morning, five workouts per week, manicures, body detailing, fashion shopping, tanning, and hair appointments that a lot of women with more traditional careers might fit in.

Also, regardless of how she looks, most (non-whipped) guys conform to American standards and just aren't comfortable with the doc woman "wearing the pants" in terms of household income, etc. No guy with a sense of self worth wants to be Mr. Mom and get nonstop jokes from his buddies while his wife, a female doc, is gone all day earning the family's money. However, for many women of all types, the opposite (aka "traditional") setup of a rich husband working while they raise the kids is a great life they dream about all along, though. You can accept it or hate it... but you can't change the weather, folks.

 

[Eta Carinae]

It's just societal norms. A lot of people expect men to be men (laborer, breadwinner, and protector of the family) while women act like women (child raising, housework, socialization, etc). Some will call it "sexist," and others will say it's just an adherence to basic American standards that have worked well for generations.

For male docs, the dating pool gets bigger and bigger as they go through training and into their career. What woman doesn't want to date a rich, smart, and successful guy... and bring that guy who has his life together over to meet her family? A male doc/resident can date female professionals, or he could date the junior college girl working at the mall GAP store. Nobody really cares; he's the provider and worker of the family regardless of who his partner is.

For female docs (esp the poor ones who decide to be surgeons), the dating pool gets smaller and smaller as they progress through. Not only do they have less time to date/excercise/primp, but they face a ticking biological clock, increasing % of men their age "taken" (or dating younger women), and they will almost surely be questioned if they date someone who makes less money and/or has a less prestigous job than they do. If that's not enough, about 80% of hospital employees are women, so it's tough for female docs to meet a partner at the workplace (and likewise very easy for male docs to get dates from the company ink). Finally, any vacation, ma/paternity leave, etc is viewed as lazy in a hardworking profession like medicine, and female docs are therefore gonna have to accept being past their prime physical attractiveness and reproductive peak years by the time they finish training... or usually be labeled as "slackers" or "a cow" at work if they do take time off for family, kids, etc.

The female docs are basically limited to dating/marrying medical colleagues, lawyers, MBAs, PhDs, grad engineers, pro athletes/entertainers, etc... or being questioned for "dating down." To compound things, it's sorta hard for many female docs to attract those kind of successful guys since (let's face it) most women who are highly attractive (ie the type most professional men date) didn't have to work hard, go to med school, and do a residency to find success in life. Most attractive women spent their high school and college years dating, partying, and jersey chasing... not in the library curled up with a biology textbook. I'm not saying single female docs aren't attractive sometimes, but we have to admit that a 70hr work week isn't exactly conducive to fitting in makeup in the morning, five workouts per week, manicures, body detailing, and hair appointments.

Also, regardless of how she looks, most (non-whipped) guys conform to American standards and just aren't comfortable with the doc woman "wearing the pants" in terms of household income, etc. No guy with a sense of self worth wants to be Mr. Mom and get nonstop jokes from his buddies while his wife, a female doc, is gone all day earning the family's money. For many women of all types, though the opposite "traditional" setup of a rich husband working while they raise the kids is a great life they dream about all along, though. You can accept it or hate it... but you can't change the weather, folks.

so very difficult (for some women) to swallow

but so very, very, very true.

 

[lagirl213]

Thanks for all your insight. I wrote this in hopes of better understanding what other 3rd party members think. And although there is some sort of stigmatism on a woman marrying someone who has qualifications IF NOT BETTER, it shouldn't matter. As of right now, my friend pretty much cut ties with her family (she comes from a strict asian culture) to be with this man since they so heavily disapprove. They were hoping she marry a doctor or a lawyer like her. So props to her, and thanks for all your replies.

 

[dotdash]

You have to be able to respect your spouse, so know yourself well enough to know what it takes to gain your respect. If that is intellect, great. Status, great. Kindness, great. Opinion of others, great. Good looks, great. Whatever it is, you don't have to defend it, but you have to know what it is so you can make a marriage that can stand the test of time.

 

[xanthines]

Yikes! Cutting the family off for the boyfriend? That better be a special guy! That said, if things end hopefully the family will be understanding and not say "I told you so!" too much.

-X

PS: Just a reminder to keep things civil in here, people!

 

[lagirl213]

Unfortunately yes. Cutting ties. She feels she worked hard to get to where she is and did very well for herself thus far (very true) and that her parents should trust her judgement and trust her. As for her parents being completely against her being with a cop is for that reason alone. Because he's a cop. If there were other personality issues or other critical issues about him her parents had problems with, she would have taken that into consideration. But the sole reason why they are against her marrying this guy is because he's a cop with only a bachelors degree and thus, has the potential to make less money than her and they feel that down the line, her respect for him will diminish, they will fight about money since she's the breadwinner... etc (they already came up with a story "this is whats going to happen if you marry him"). I feel her decision was extreme, but I do support her. At some point in your life, you have to make decisions for yourself. Sure, parents want what's best for you and they have good intentions, but they are not always right. They should trust that they have raised a good daughter and support her decision. They may not have to like it but all parents should support their children because in the end, it's their life- you live and learn.

 

[dotdash]

Cutting ties sounds extreme. If you parents don't like your boyfriend, okay, fight about it at family dinners, or agree to disagree, or discuss it endlessly and angrily -- but cutting ties? That sounds as if there is more going on than just the boyfriend. Maybe the boyfriend is just the method she is using to break away?

 

[lagirl213]

Cutting ties sounds extreme. If you parents don't like your boyfriend, okay, fight about it at family dinners, or agree to disagree, or discuss it endlessly and angrily -- but cutting ties? That sounds as if there is more going on than just the boyfriend. Maybe the boyfriend is just the method she is using to break away?

I agree. Cutting ties with the family is extreme indeed. After fighting over dinners, screaming at each other, sitting down with civilized conversations and discussing it angrily for 3 years she's had enough. They have been dating for 4 years and out of those 4, 3 years was constant "dont bring him into the house" "we raised you better than this" "how dare you defy us" she had enough. She wants to marry him and without this extreme defiance she felt this was her last straw in havng her parents understand.

She did what she had to do. I thank everyone who gave their input on this site, especially to cristina, because she was an inspiration to all of us- my friend and I included.

 

[Eta Carinae]

I agree. Cutting ties with the family is extreme indeed. After fighting over dinners, screaming at each other, sitting down with civilized conversations and discussing it angrily for 3 years she's had enough. They have been dating for 4 years and out of those 4, 3 years was constant "dont bring him into the house" "we raised you better than this" "how dare you defy us" she had enough. She wants to marry him and without this extreme defiance she felt this was her last straw in havng her parents understand.

She did what she had to do. I thank everyone who gave their input on this site, especially to cristina, because she was an inspiration to all of us- my friend and I included.

or should that have read "my friend = I"

Either way, only time will tell.

Family tends to be overly idealistic in their expectations of a mate for their loved one...

And then said loved one turns 30...then 40...then 50...and the highly sought-after prince charming never materializes. Because there was no yielding, no compromise.

OTOH, the combined wisdom and experience of family is not to be quickly dismissed. Many times, their foresight exceeds ours. Plus, they're not as emotionally invested as to have a relatively distorted perception of said potential mate as the OP's "friend" )) may have. Family's perspective tends to be far more objective.

Only time will tell who's right.

Then again that's a huge risk.

 

[bronx43]

Is money the problem, or is intellect the problem? Those two are very different. One should play little to no role as far as eventual happiness. The other, however, might be more of a deal breaker.

Btw, what happened to Phatib's posts? All I see are responses to them.

 

[NYRN]

I think the most important thing is to remember that titles and status mean NOTHING. I can count more MD+MD marriages breaking up than MD+ other type of person.

Many of the guys say that they married MD wife because it seemed right on paper. The marriages didn't last and they were divorced. The successful MD wives are working their butts off, while MD man finds another non-MD chick who has more time for him. For some reason, the MD+MD couples I know who are happily married, met in med school not residency. I have no idea why that is, just an observation.

Many of the MD's I know who are married and happy, are married to non medical people. They say they want the break from medicine when they go home and that they don't want to deal with someone else having the schedule they do.

I do think that people tend to judge female MD's more if they date an uneducated person than if a male does. I say F em.

You have to do what is best for you. Who gives a SH what anyone else thinks. If you are happy with this man, than don't blow him off because of his education. The perfect MD husband may or may not be out there, but to give up someone you love and who loves you in persuit of a fantasy isn't a good idea. So many new female residents get played by these guys who are just trying to bang anything they can while making you feel like you are the only one he wants to be with. I don't SH where I eat, but I have seen this sort of thing go on for years. If you happen to meet someone else who you just know this person is your match even though you are a relationship with someone else, it will work out the way it's supposed to.

 

[elektroshok]

so very difficult (for some women) to swallow

and who wants this...

 

[Nupe954]

Is money the problem, or is intellect the problem? Those two are very different. One should play little to no role as far as eventual happiness. The other, however, might be more of a deal breaker.

Btw, what happened to Phatib's posts? All I see are responses to them.

I was thinking the same thing since I am to blame for the burger king exec convo starter lol!

 

[eddoc03]

OTOH, my first marriage was to someone who was not in medicine at all which meant NO understanding of patient needs coming before him (of course, towards the end I was happy to put medicine WAY out in front ). Now happily married to someone who isn't always thrilled with it, but at least understands and shares my values.

 

[Nupe954]

OTOH, my first marriage was to someone who was not in medicine at all which meant NO understanding of patient needs coming before him (of course, towards the end I was happy to put medicine WAY out in front ). Now happily married to someone who isn't always thrilled with it, but at least understands and shares my values.

Thats whats important

 

[xlithiumx]

I guess by traditional societal standards I married down. My wife has most of a bachelor's degree in communication studies, but didn't finish it. She's done various office work, and is now doing childcare. Nothing very exciting profesionally. But, she's bright, funny, and fun to be around. She's supportive and caring, and has enough independence to get along well during my busy and tough times. So, our marriage works very well. We're going on 4 years, and this year (my intern year) has been our best yet.

Our families are happy because we're happy.

 

[Eta Carinae]

and who wants this...

 

[touchadream]

I am a tax attorney (work as a financial consultant) married a long time to a radiologist. No question that my "respected degree" got respect from his colleagues (I was the only fellowship spouse known by name to the chairman, for example), but really doctors are pretty myopic and arrogant, more so than "smart". Over time I have found that I have "reduced" in their eyes to the size of a spouse--this after having children, especially, whereas I have grown in wisdom far past that degree. They as a group have also gone down in my eyes as I have watched and participated in his several university and private practices. Doctors make foolish business decisions, often have poor social skills, and, like anyone else who lives in a single intense environment at the top of a hierarchy of techs and nurses, their habit of command and self-importance tends to grow. This isn't true of all, of course, but I believe there is a recognizable pattern. I know VERY few women in medicine who are happy. Probably those in doctor/doctor couples are less happy because there is always the competition in general, the limited family time, the unpredictable schedules and usually the women leave or cut back, ending up somewhat resentful or if they don't family infrastructure crumbles. I was that first generation of women's lib, same time as the first "green movement", so I thought you should be able to have full equality. I know a lot better now and worry about my daughters. There is nothing more important than a good doctor when you need him or her. But there is also nothing more important than a good police officer when you need him or her. Women are smarter than men generally, I think, in that they can multitask, have fewer emotional roadblocks to interfere with their judgment, and tend to talk earlier, read earlier and are suited to sustained stress and concentration. Smarter is only a small piece of life, a very small piece. Respect integrity, values, strength, loyalty, and the ability to think and act quickly. Just like doctors, or lawyers or burger magnates or soldiers, there are good ones and not so good ones. I am very interested in this question because I have a brilliant (probably too smart) daughter who is serious about a cowboy who has not been to college. She is NM finalist, Honors, Phi Beta Kappa, got into vet school, decided not to go. The disparity in their education is huge, but I do respect them both. I strongly suggest some premarital counselling to go over the issues. We didn't have that opportunity and I wish we had been forced to consider together many issues in advance that later became problems. And I used to think psychologists were the biggest losers! Good luck. Also, marriage makes nothing better. Women tend to see it as a beginning (now we can really start our life together) and men tend to see it as an end (I won her--game over). REasonable expectations and mutual respect at home matter. The world, not so much. I would be proud to be married to someone so brave who would take such a life-threatening and honorable job, one I personally would be terrified to do, and would be bad at, to boot. Those doctors that criticize are jealous because he's probably intimidating, fit, and brave. I didn't fit in with my husband's colleagues either--they hate lawyers, don't understand what we do and assume its easier than medicine. None of this is surprising to me anymore. Doctors also "know" they could have done a lot of other things successfully, so they assume they are better at it than others who do it full time. Don't believe me? Just look at the finance and investment forum here, its full of doctor-led misinformation--they surf google for investment information! Not even google scholar, where the university papers are. Other people snicker at doctors too, you should hear my colleagues talk about the dumb things they do! Best of luck. We are all walking wounded. Follow your heart. Make dead sure he can make you laugh and promises to do it every day.

 

[Velocity]

...but really doctors are pretty myopic and arrogant, more so than "smart".
...Women are smarter than men generally, I think, in that they can multitask, have fewer emotional roadblocks to interfere with their judgment, and tend to talk earlier, read earlier and are suited to sustained stress and concentration.
...Also, marriage makes nothing better. Women tend to see it as a beginning (now we can really start our life together) and men tend to see it as an end (I won her--game over). REasonable expectations and mutual respect at home matter.
...Other people snicker at doctors too, you should hear my colleagues talk about the dumb things they do!

I think you could replace "doctors" in your post with virtually any profession and it would hold true. People in our society seem to build themselves up by trashing others. Can't say I like it much.

As a man, I dislike your generalization about women being smarter than men. Not very surprising, I'm sure Women are stereotypically more emotional than men, but let's face it: there are emotionally unstable women, and there are emotionally unstable men. Please don't make generalizations.

Marriage would "make things better" if people took it seriously and understood what goes into it. Divorces are regarded as being very common and acceptable, so I get the sense that people don't take marriage as the commitment that it is (and recognize that there's work to go along with it). I suppose it may just be a trend in how people approach relationships in general, though. When I was in college it seemed like people regarded relationships as little more than a bit of play, an excuse to fool around. Even at the graduate and medical school level that attitude still exists.

I'm not sure how the average person regards marriage, but I've heard of a few cases where people went into it thinking that it was like walking into a fairy tale, all rainbows and chirping birds, with preset sequences that would inevitably end in "happily ever after." It's never that easy, although some relationships make it seem that way.

 

[xanthines]

While I also agree with this statement, it seems to me that doctors are very, very near the top of this dubious distinction.

-X

I think you could replace "doctors" in your post with virtually any profession and it would hold true.

 

[basupran]

I am a tax attorney (work as a financial consultant) married a long time to a radiologist. No question that my "respected degree" got respect from his colleagues (I was the only fellowship spouse known by name to the chairman, for example), but really doctors are pretty myopic and arrogant, more so than "smart". Over time I have found that I have "reduced" in their eyes to the size of a spouse--this after having children, especially, whereas I have grown in wisdom far past that degree. They as a group have also gone down in my eyes as I have watched and participated in his several university and private practices. Doctors make foolish business decisions, often have poor social skills, and, like anyone else who lives in a single intense environment at the top of a hierarchy of techs and nurses, their habit of command and self-importance tends to grow. This isn't true of all, of course, but I believe there is a recognizable pattern. I know VERY few women in medicine who are happy. Probably those in doctor/doctor couples are less happy because there is always the competition in general, the limited family time, the unpredictable schedules and usually the women leave or cut back, ending up somewhat resentful or if they don't family infrastructure crumbles. I was that first generation of women's lib, same time as the first "green movement", so I thought you should be able to have full equality. I know a lot better now and worry about my daughters. There is nothing more important than a good doctor when you need him or her. But there is also nothing more important than a good police officer when you need him or her. Women are smarter than men generally, I think, in that they can multitask, have fewer emotional roadblocks to interfere with their judgment, and tend to talk earlier, read earlier and are suited to sustained stress and concentration. Smarter is only a small piece of life, a very small piece. Respect integrity, values, strength, loyalty, and the ability to think and act quickly. Just like doctors, or lawyers or burger magnates or soldiers, there are good ones and not so good ones. I am very interested in this question because I have a brilliant (probably too smart) daughter who is serious about a cowboy who has not been to college. She is NM finalist, Honors, Phi Beta Kappa, got into vet school, decided not to go. The disparity in their education is huge, but I do respect them both. I strongly suggest some premarital counselling to go over the issues. We didn't have that opportunity and I wish we had been forced to consider together many issues in advance that later became problems. And I used to think psychologists were the biggest losers! Good luck. Also, marriage makes nothing better. Women tend to see it as a beginning (now we can really start our life together) and men tend to see it as an end (I won her--game over). REasonable expectations and mutual respect at home matter. The world, not so much. I would be proud to be married to someone so brave who would take such a life-threatening and honorable job, one I personally would be terrified to do, and would be bad at, to boot. Those doctors that criticize are jealous because he's probably intimidating, fit, and brave. I didn't fit in with my husband's colleagues either--they hate lawyers, don't understand what we do and assume its easier than medicine. None of this is surprising to me anymore. Doctors also "know" they could have done a lot of other things successfully, so they assume they are better at it than others who do it full time. Don't believe me? Just look at the finance and investment forum here, its full of doctor-led misinformation--they surf google for investment information! Not even google scholar, where the university papers are. Other people snicker at doctors too, you should hear my colleagues talk about the dumb things they do! Best of luck. We are all walking wounded. Follow your heart. Make dead sure he can make you laugh and promises to do it every day.

Can you please use the 'return/enter' key to make it easier for us dumb doctors?

 

[pulmonary kid]

.....Women are smarter than men generally, I think, in that they can multitask, have fewer emotional roadblocks to interfere with their judgment, and tend to talk earlier, read earlier and are suited to sustained stress and concentration. Smarter is only a small piece of life, a very small piece. Respect integrity, values, strength, loyalty, and the ability to think and act quickly.

.......Those doctors that criticize are jealous because he's probably intimidating, fit, and brave. I didn't fit in with my husband's colleagues either--they hate lawyers, don't understand what we do and assume its easier than medicine. None of this is surprising to me anymore.

.... Doctors also "know" they could have done a lot of other things successfully, so they assume they are better at it than others who do it full time. Don't believe me? Just look at the finance and investment forum here, its full of doctor-led misinformation--they surf google for investment information! Not even google scholar, where the university papers are. Other people snicker at doctors too, you should hear my colleagues talk about the dumb things they do! Best of luck.

You sure sound angry at Physicians and Men in general.

 

[thefritz]

Doctors also "know" they could have done a lot of other things successfully, so they assume they are better at it than others who do it full time.

This part is true (you have the marriage thing backwards though -- women see it as an end because they no longer have to worry about getting too old to find a partner). Cocky surgeons buy brand new cirruses and crash them because they are SURE they can fly the thing through a snow storm even though they barely had enough time to get their certificates and certainly not enough to stay safely current in a complex aircraft. The A&P mechanics I knew called Cirrus airplanes "doctor killers"

Sad to see someone train to be a surgeon and throw it away literally going down in flames due to their own ego. Nature balances everything out in the end.

This whole thread makes me want to throw up. Do what you want. Marry who you want if you want to get married at all. You all should be smart enough to know that your life belongs to you and you only. And you should certainly be confident enough to not let the snotty criticisms of shallow-minded people have any significant effect on your thoughts.

 

[xnfs93hy]

It's just societal norms. A lot of people expect men to be men (laborer, breadwinner, and protector of the family) while women act like women (child raising, housework, socialization, etc). Some will call it "sexist," and others will say it's just an adherence to basic American standards that have worked well for generations.

For male docs, the dating pool gets bigger and bigger as they go through training and into their career. What woman doesn't want to date a rich, smart, and successful guy... and bring that guy, who has his life together, over to meet her family? A male doc/resident can date female professionals, or he could date the junior college girl working at the mall GAP store. Nobody really cares; he's the provider and worker of the family regardless of who his partner is.

For female docs (esp the poor ones who decide to be surgeons), the dating pool gets smaller and smaller as they progress through. Not only do they have less time to date/excercise/primp, but they face a ticking biological clock, increasing % of men their age "taken" (or dating younger women), and they will almost surely be questioned if they date someone who makes less money and/or has a less prestigous job than they do. If that's not enough, about 80% of hospital employees are women, so it's tough for female docs to meet a partner at the workplace (and likewise very easy for male docs to get dates from the company ink). Finally, any vacation, ma/paternity leave, etc is viewed as lazy in a hardworking profession like medicine, and female docs are therefore gonna have to accept being past their prime physical attractiveness and reproductive peak years by the time they finish training... or usually be labeled as "slacker" or "a cow" at work if they do take time off for family, having kids, etc.

The female docs are basically limited to dating/marrying medical colleagues, lawyers, MBAs, PhDs, grad engineers, pro athletes/entertainers, etc... or being questioned for "dating down." To compound things, it's sorta hard for many female docs to attract those kind of successful guys since (let's face it) most women who are highly attractive (ie the type most professional men date) didn't have to work hard, go to med school, and do a residency to find success in life. Most attractive women spent their high school and college years dating, partying, and jersey chasing... not in the library curled up with a biology textbook. I'm not saying single female docs aren't attractive sometimes, but we have to admit that a 70hr work week isn't exactly conducive to fitting in makeup in the morning, five workouts per week, manicures, body detailing, fashion shopping, tanning, and hair appointments that a lot of women with more traditional careers might fit in.

Also, regardless of how she looks, most (non-whipped) guys conform to American standards and just aren't comfortable with the doc woman "wearing the pants" in terms of household income, etc. No guy with a sense of self worth wants to be Mr. Mom and get nonstop jokes from his buddies while his wife, a female doc, is gone all day earning the family's money. However, for many women of all types, the opposite (aka "traditional") setup of a rich husband working while they raise the kids is a great life they dream about all along, though. You can accept it or hate it... but you can't change the weather, folks.

This entire post gets a .

 

[FruitFly]

Those terms are so terrible and pretentious.

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[Special Delivery]

What an interesting thread. If you equate the value of your significant other strictly to their profession, you should expect to have problems down the road. There's always going to be disparity of some sort in a relationship, whether it be monetary, intellect, or any number of things. The objective should be to focus on someone's strengths and see how they shore up your shortcomings and compliment your own strengths, not to find someone who is your "equal" in every regard. If you did that, you'd both share the same flaws with no one to cover them.

 

[PharmaTope]

What an interesting thread. If you equate the value of your significant other strictly to their profession, you should expect to have problems down the road. There's always going to be disparity of some sort in a relationship, whether it be monetary, intellect, or any number of things. The objective should be to focus on someone's strengths and see how they shore up your shortcomings and compliment your own strengths, not to find someone who is your "equal" in every regard. If you did that, you'd both share the same flaws with no one to cover them.

agreed, what a disturbing thread. if you don't see your partner as equal to you, it is OVER.

so the fact that some of you are stating "you are smarter than him, higher IQ" is incredibly worrisome. The fact that you even thought about them shows there was on some level some doubt.

 

[ToldYouSo]

agreed, what a disturbing thread. if you don't see your partner as equal to you, it is OVER.

so the fact that some of you are stating "you are smarter than him, higher IQ" is incredibly worrisome. The fact that you even thought about them shows there was on some level some doubt.

Agreed! I thought I was the only one who found this thread depressing. And to Feli who said that no guy with a sense of self worth wants to be Mr. mom... Raising your children is not something to be ashamed of whatsoever. To be honest, I'd be extremely happy if my wife was making the same/more than I was, more money for us. I think in today's society, a both partners are taking a bigger part in roles that were once traditionally associated with the "man's" role or the "woman's role."

 

[Ana1982]

I think the most important thing is to remember that titles and status mean NOTHING. I can count more MD+MD marriages breaking up than MD+ other type of person.

Many of the guys say that they married MD wife because it seemed right on paper. The marriages didn't last and they were divorced. The successful MD wives are working their butts off, while MD man finds another non-MD chick who has more time for him. For some reason, the MD+MD couples I know who are happily married, met in med school not residency. I have no idea why that is, just an observation.

Many of the MD's I know who are married and happy, are married to non medical people. They say they want the break from medicine when they go home and that they don't want to deal with someone else having the schedule they do.

I do think that people tend to judge female MD's more if they date an uneducated person than if a male does. I say F em.

You have to do what is best for you. Who gives a SH what anyone else thinks. If you are happy with this man, than don't blow him off because of his education. The perfect MD husband may or may not be out there, but to give up someone you love and who loves you in persuit of a fantasy isn't a good idea. So many new female residents get played by these guys who are just trying to bang anything they can while making you feel like you are the only one he wants to be with. I don't SH where I eat, but I have seen this sort of thing go on for years. If you happen to meet someone else who you just know this person is your match even though you are a relationship with someone else, it will work out the way it's supposed to.

You're awesome. Thanks hon!

 

[Footpain]

One thing people are forgetting to realize is this: not having a college degree does NOT MEAN one is of lesser intellect. Some very intelligent people choose not to go to college. But, if said person chose to do so, he/she may end up with a doctorate in mathematics (more difficult than medicine), a veterinarian, or whatever. You just never know.

And not everyone in medicine is capable of doing everything. I know that there are physicians that could not handle math beyond algebra. To think that they could achieve a doctorate in math or physics or even a bachelor's in engineering is ridiculous.

 

[Footpain]

I forgot to add that there are many, many educated cops. Owning a badge and a gun, DOES not mean all brawns and no brain. Many police departments are encouraging a college education, but many cops have more than that. I know this because I have worked as a forensic scientist for many years and have also participated in police training.

 

[phospho]

It's just societal norms. A lot of people expect men to be men (laborer, breadwinner, and protector of the family) while women act like women (child raising, housework, socialization, etc). Some will call it "sexist," and others will say it's just an adherence to basic American standards that have worked well for generations.

For male docs, the dating pool gets bigger and bigger as they go through training and into their career. What woman doesn't want to date a rich, smart, and successful guy... and bring that guy, who has his life together, over to meet her family? A male doc/resident can date female professionals, or he could date the junior college girl working at the mall GAP store. Nobody really cares; he's the provider and worker of the family regardless of who his partner is.

For female docs (esp the poor ones who decide to be surgeons), the dating pool gets smaller and smaller as they progress through. Not only do they have less time to date/excercise/primp, but they face a ticking biological clock, increasing % of men their age "taken" (or dating younger women), and they will almost surely be questioned if they date someone who makes less money and/or has a less prestigous job than they do. If that's not enough, about 80% of hospital employees are women, so it's tough for female docs to meet a partner at the workplace (and likewise very easy for male docs to get dates from the company ink). Finally, any vacation, ma/paternity leave, etc is viewed as lazy in a hardworking profession like medicine, and female docs are therefore gonna have to accept being past their prime physical attractiveness and reproductive peak years by the time they finish training... or usually be labeled as "slacker" or "a cow" at work if they do take time off for family, having kids, etc.

The female docs are basically limited to dating/marrying medical colleagues, lawyers, MBAs, PhDs, grad engineers, pro athletes/entertainers, etc... or being questioned for "dating down." To compound things, it's sorta hard for many female docs to attract those kind of successful guys since (let's face it) most women who are highly attractive (ie the type most professional men date) didn't have to work hard, go to med school, and do a residency to find success in life. Most attractive women spent their high school and college years dating, partying, and jersey chasing... not in the library curled up with a biology textbook. I'm not saying single female docs aren't attractive sometimes, but we have to admit that a 70hr work week isn't exactly conducive to fitting in makeup in the morning, five workouts per week, manicures, body detailing, fashion shopping, tanning, and hair appointments that a lot of women with more traditional careers might fit in.

Also, regardless of how she looks, most (non-whipped) guys conform to American standards and just aren't comfortable with the doc woman "wearing the pants" in terms of household income, etc. No guy with a sense of self worth wants to be Mr. Mom and get nonstop jokes from his buddies while his wife, a female doc, is gone all day earning the family's money. However, for many women of all types, the opposite (aka "traditional") setup of a rich husband working while they raise the kids is a great life they dream about all along, though. You can accept it or hate it... but you can't change the weather, folks.