Mask discussion

[KHE88]

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MANDATORY IMPLICIT BIAS TRAINING FOR HEALTHCARE WORKERS MANDATED BY MICHIGAN GOVERNOR

Really disturbed by all this, but not surprised.

Mandatory re-education.
Repeat the following far-left buzzphrases after me and apologize for your inherent racism as a white person or you're fired...
Also, wear "your" mask or you're fired. Also, let us inject these marginally effective vaccines into your body or you're fired.
Also, support our efforts to expand our residency program or you're fired.
Also, accept this 30% paycut to pay for new administrative positions/overhead/bottom-line-padding or you're fired.
Also, work in clinic 4.5 days a week and use your weekends and holidays to generate publications to support your academic position or you're fired.
Lovely.

 

[medgator]

Trying to politicize masks? Sigh.

1. Not relevant to this thread
2. Leave the anti science gaslighting to the executive branch in DC

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Mandatory re-education.
Repeat the following far-left buzzphrases after me and apologize for your inherent racism as a white person or you're fired...
Also, wear "your" mask or you're fired. Also, let us inject these marginally effective vaccines into your body or you're fired.
Also, support our efforts to expand our residency program or you're fired.
Also, accept this 30% paycut to pay for new administrative positions/overhead/bottom-line-padding or you're fired.
Also, work in clinic 4.5 days a week and use your weekends and holidays to generate publications to support your academic position or you're fired.
Lovely.

dude did you just go antivaccer? Anti-mask? Never do that brotha.

 

[KHE88]

Trying to politicize masks? Sigh.

1. Not relevant to this thread
2. Leave the anti science gaslighting to the executive branch in DC

Of course this would trigger you and make you bring up Trump for literally no reason, like you always do.
Hint: There's one side of the mask debate that's really weak on science and it's not mine.
Show me the RCT that demonstrates that dry cloth masks have any significant impact on reducing deaths from COVID.
I'll wait.
It's simply a political statement and power grab.

 

[KHE88]

dude did you just go antivaccer? Anti-mask? Never do that brotha.

LOL @ "anti-mask", and no I'm not anti-vaccine. Strawmen suck.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

LOL @ "anti-mask", and no I'm not anti-vaccine. Strawmen suck.

ok good just wanted to clarify

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

Of course this would trigger you and make you bring up Trump for literally no reason, like you always do.
Hint: There's one side of the mask debate that's really weak on science and it's not mine.
Show me the RCT that demonstrates that dry cloth masks have any significant impact on reducing deaths from COVID.
I'll wait.
It's simply a political statement and power grab.

I saw a news story where they coughed on a petri dish with and without a mask. Given those results and the toxicity of wearing a mask I think I have all the evidence I need...

 

[RickyScott]

Mandatory re-education.
Repeat the following far-left buzzphrases after me and apologize for your inherent racism as a white person or you're fired...
Also, wear "your" mask or you're fired. Also, let us inject these marginally effective vaccines into your body or you're fired.
Also, support our efforts to expand our residency program or you're fired.
Also, accept this 30% paycut to pay for new administrative positions/overhead/bottom-line-padding or you're fired.
Also, work in clinic 4.5 days a week and use your weekends and holidays to generate publications to support your academic position or you're fired.
Lovely.

You know where mandatory re education works- China. About 1 million muslin urguyurs in re education camps. Apparently many have “graduated”
With spectacular results.

 

[KHE88]

I saw a news story where they coughed on a petri dish with and without a mask. Given those results and the toxicity of wearing a mask I think I have all the evidence I need...

I saw a news story where they radiated a bunch of viruses and they all lived. Given those results, and the toxicity of radiation, I think I have all the evidence that I need that we should not be radiating people.

Not sure if serious, but you'd think as radiation oncologist we'd been a little more demanding in terms of evidence for intervention and reject politically-motivated incomplete science, especially when it comes to laws that impose on individual liberty. But you'd be wrong!

If you want to get your scientific knowledge from the news, here's a fairly decent summary and review of the literature that you won't see on CNN:

Masks Don’t Work: A Review of Science Relevant to COVID-19 Social Policy

There have been extensive randomized controlled trial (RCT) studies, and meta-analysis reviews of RCT studies, which all show that masks and respirators do not work to prevent respiratory influenza-like illnesses, or respiratory illnesses believed to be transmitted by droplets and aerosol...

www.rcreader.com

For anyone who wants to have an open mind about it anyway. Plenty have already decided that if you question the government's orders due to a lack of good evidence, then you are selfish and evil and just want to kill grandma so you can party. Or else you're just afraid of being shamed and/or labelled an idiot Trump supporter, which is what this is all about.

I'm fairly confident that when/if Biden is elected in November, the masks go away, and they go away quickly. The media and left-wing establishment is heavily invested in making sure Americans are as uncomfortable and as unhappy/scared as possible until November. Literally everything that have spewed over the past 4 years has had the singular goal of getting rid of Trump. Why would this be any different? Hence, the demands for blind acceptance of incomplete science and talking heads encouraging mask-shaming.

 

[KHE88]

And as for needing a RCT to determine if you need a mask: Not everything requires RCT level evidence for adoption. There are other types of valid evidcence. Welcome to the real world.

Yeah, sometimes in medical science, you just have to go by gut feelings/common sense and the recommendations of celebrities on Twitter too.

It's really, really rich to say that "not everything requires RCT level evidence for adoption" when so many said literally the exact same thing when it came to using hydroxycloroquine. Now everybody who lashed out at those who supported hydroxycloroquine without good evidence are the exact same people lambasting those who point out the weak science behind masks, especially cloth masks in the community, and saying "not everything requires a RCT."

Rich I tell you!

Thought exercise: If a proposed solution to COVID with weak mask-level evidence were wearing mildly uncomfortable underwear that nobody could see, I am fairly certain nearly all of these mask shamers would not be doing it. Maybe I'm wrong and everyone is wearing the masks out of the pure goodness of their hearts and a genuine misguided belief in incomplete science, but I feel instead it's not about trying to cause an effect you genuinely believe will happen (and one that's virtually impossible to measure -- notice a theme here with these new societal problems that have proposed solutions whose effect can't be meaningfully/reliably measured?). It's about making a statement and visibly demonstrating compliance. Call me and William of Ockham crazy but that makes a lot more sense.

 

[medgator]

Asia has been doing masks for years since the time of sars. Amazing this is still being debated by those in the medical community. Basic public health should be in the toolbox of any physician, including the ones on this forum

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.

www.ucsf.edu

How masks helped Hong Kong control the coronavirus

New research shows that universal mask-wearing may help slow the spread of Covid-19.

www.vox.com

Hairstylists with COVID-19 didn't infect any of their 139 clients. Face masks may be why.

Two hair stylists in Missouri interacted with a total of 139 clients and six coworkers before learning they both had COVID-19 — thankfully, the stylists didn't pass the virus on to any of these contacts, according to a statement from the local health department.

www.livescience.com

@evilbooyaa and @Neuronix can move this to wherever they want, but imo i felt the need to post it in response to some of the irresponsible posts on this thread

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

I saw a news story where they radiated a bunch of viruses and they all lived. Given those results, and the toxicity of radiation, I think I have all the evidence that I need that we should not be radiating people.

Not sure if serious, but you'd think as radiation oncologist we'd been a little more demanding in terms of evidence for intervention and reject politically-motivated incomplete science, especially when it comes to laws that impose on individual liberty. But you'd be wrong!

If you want to get your scientific knowledge from the news, here's a fairly decent summary and review of the literature that you won't see on CNN:

Masks Don’t Work: A Review of Science Relevant to COVID-19 Social Policy

There have been extensive randomized controlled trial (RCT) studies, and meta-analysis reviews of RCT studies, which all show that masks and respirators do not work to prevent respiratory influenza-like illnesses, or respiratory illnesses believed to be transmitted by droplets and aerosol...

www.rcreader.com

For anyone who wants to have an open mind about it anyway. Plenty have already decided that if you question the government's orders due to a lack of good evidence, then you are selfish and evil and just want to kill grandma so you can party. Or else you're just afraid of being shamed and/or labelled an idiot Trump supporter, which is what this is all about.

I'm fairly confident that when/if Biden is elected in November, the masks go away, and they go away quickly. The media and left-wing establishment is heavily invested in making sure Americans are as uncomfortable and as unhappy/scared as possible until November. Literally everything that have spewed over the past 4 years has had the singular goal of getting rid of Trump. Why would this be any different? Hence, the demands for blind acceptance of incomplete science and talking heads encouraging mask-shaming.

I looked at some of the papers cited, if not all, and here's the gist:

Paper 1: RCT of 32 people with 1 cold in each arm.
Paper 2: Review of a number of contexts that seemed to suggest no difference between mask and no mask for virus acquisition, but possible impact on reducing transmission from infected person.
Paper 3: Review of mostly mask vs respirator with this line: “Eight of nine retrospective observational studies found that mask and ⁄ or respirator use was independently associated with a reduced risk of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS).” That sentence was in the … of the quote in your linked webpage: “There were 17 eligible studies. … None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask/respirator use and protection against influenza infection.” There were a lot of sentences buried in those dots, almost like they wanted their point to be correct.
Paper 4: Review that seemed to suggest masks help, but it’s N95s that are effective
Paper 5: N95 vs surgical mask RCT, no difference…

In addition to news stories cited by medgator, there is apparently real, objective data that cloth masks reduce the distance respiratory droplets travel.

Quote from UCSF ID doc:
“I think there’s enough evidence to say that the best benefit is for people who have COVID-19 to protect them from giving COVID-19 to other people, but you’re still going to get a benefit from wearing a mask if you don’t have COVID-19,” said Chin-Hong.

I did enjoy reading the questions about all the potentially horrible side effects that could come from sporadically wearing a cloth mask.

 

[KHE88]

Asia has been doing masks for years since the time of sars. Amazing this is still being debated by those in the medical community. Basic public health should be in the toolbox of any physician, including the ones on this forum

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.

www.ucsf.edu

How masks helped Hong Kong control the coronavirus

New research shows that universal mask-wearing may help slow the spread of Covid-19.

www.vox.com

Hairstylists with COVID-19 didn't infect any of their 139 clients. Face masks may be why.

Two hair stylists in Missouri interacted with a total of 139 clients and six coworkers before learning they both had COVID-19 — thankfully, the stylists didn't pass the virus on to any of these contacts, according to a statement from the local health department.

www.livescience.com

@evilbooyaa and @Neuronix can move this to wherever they want, but imo i felt the need to post it in response to some of the irresponsible posts on this thread

Irresponsible because you say so? It's not surprising that you would just call to censor an opinion that challenges your narrative and basically call any physician that disagrees with you an idiot. You can call the ABR and tell them I'm incompetent I suppose for simply asking for rigorous proof that masks work to significantly reduce deaths before implementing widespread public policy changes.
What's amazing is how some are so quick to accept weak and incomplete science when it fits their political narrative.

You literally just linked to Vox.

Also I'm sure that wearing masks and having a masked society has no significant psychosocial morbidity associated with it. We don't need a RCT for that either, naturally. Your solution is to just wear masks indefinitely? If we can prevent one death, after all, even if it's a flu death. I guess we should have had had laws requiring us to be wearing them all along.

 

[KHE88]

I looked at some of the papers cited, if not all, and here's the gist:

Paper 1: RCT of 32 people with 1 cold in each arm.
Paper 2: Review of a number of contexts that seemed to suggest no difference between mask and no mask for virus acquisition, but possible impact on reducing transmission from infected person.
Paper 3: Review of mostly mask vs respirator with this line: “Eight of nine retrospective observational studies found that mask and ⁄ or respirator use was independently associated with a reduced risk of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS).” That sentence was in the … of the quote in your linked webpage: “There were 17 eligible studies. … None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask/respirator use and protection against influenza infection.” There were a lot of sentences buried in those dots, almost like they wanted their point to be correct.
Paper 4: Review that seemed to suggest masks help, but it’s N95s that are effective
Paper 5: N95 vs surgical mask RCT, no difference…

In addition to news stories cited by medgator, there is apparently real, objective data that cloth masks reduce the distance respiratory droplets travel.

Quote from UCSF ID doc:
“I think there’s enough evidence to say that the best benefit is for people who have COVID-19 to protect them from giving COVID-19 to other people, but you’re still going to get a benefit from wearing a mask if you don’t have COVID-19,” said Chin-Hong.

I did enjoy reading the questions about all the potentially horrible side effects that could come from sporadically wearing a cloth mask.

I appreciate you taking the time to read and thoughtfully consider something that is likely an alternative viewpoint rather than just ferociously googling lay press stories to support your opinion.
Cloth masks likely reduce the distance droplets travel, that's logical, although likely not as much as surgical and N95 masks. Does that correlate to a reduced infection rate when mask mandates are required in the community? For instance, do asymptomatic people wearing a cloth mask in a grocery store where you only have limited close contact result in reduced infection rates? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think this question is answered, and the evidence to suggest that it has any meaningful impact is weak at best. If Medgator wishes to change my mind with some solid evidence, I'm all ears.

Regardless, this idea that wearing masks isn't a big deal is highly annoying. They are not conduive to a civil society and are intrusive. You're in denial if you think otherwise. Everyone knows they are a pain in the ass, and it's a slipperly slope as to what we may be mandated to do in public next. There needs to be a very good evidence-based reason to mandate them and it cannot be a permanent solution/new-normal. Beyond all the moral posturing and virtue signalling, I think most will come to realize that there is a cost/risk vs. benefit question to this as is everything when it comes to public policy. We can reduce the speed limit to 20 mph on all roads tomorrow and dramatically lower traffic deaths, after all.

Yet, there are those like medgator, who don't even want to permit the discussion. The science is settled. Just censor everything else and delete dissenting opinions and uncomfortable questions.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

I appreciate you taking the time to read and thoughtfully consider something that is likely an alternative viewpoint rather than just ferociously googling lay press stories to support your opinion.
Cloth masks likely reduce the distance droplets travel, that's logical, although likely not as much as surgical and N95 masks. Does that correlate to a reduced infection rate when mask mandates are required in the community? For instance, do asymptomatic people wearing a cloth mask in a grocery store where you only have limited close contact result in reduced infection rates? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think this question is answered, and the evidence to suggest that it has any meaningful impact is weak at best. If Medgator wishes to change my mind with some solid evidence, I'm all ears.

Regardless, this idea that wearing masks isn't a big deal is highly annoying. They are not conduive to a civil society and are intrusive. You're in denial if you think otherwise. Everyone knows they are a pain in the ass, and it's a slipperly slope as to what we may be mandated to do in public next. There needs to be a very good evidence-based reason to mandate them and it cannot be a permanent solution/new-normal. Beyond all the moral posturing and virtue signalling, I think most will come to realize that there is a cost/risk vs. benefit question to this as is everything when it comes to public policy. We can reduce the speed limit to 20 mph on all roads tomorrow and dramatically lower traffic deaths, after all.

Yet, there are those like medgator, who don't even want to permit the discussion. The science is settled. Just censor everything else and delete dissenting opinions and uncomfortable questions.

I hate the masks. The difference between this approach and lowering the speed limit (I hope) is that this approach could end in a relatively short period of time. In all honesty, if I knew we would have to wear masks forever, I'd be against it. As a part of a larger strategy, which is to say, in conjunction with social distancing, more frequent hand-washing, etc, I think we'd be in a better place if we'd been more aggressive from the start...If your alternative proposal is simply not wearing masks, but doing everything else the same, I'm not sure we'd see any change in the psychologic impact of what is the new normal regardless.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I'm going to move this topic of discussion to its own thread. I'm personally surprised that we as physicians need to have this discussion and that we aren't all on the same page in regards to masking in public indoor areas where 6ft of separation is not possible.... but I'm willing to entertain a respectful discussion on it.

 

[imhopeful432]

Are we really debating whether or not masks are good public policy in the middle of a pandemic where a respiratory droplet (with question of airborne spread) can be spread by asymptomatic patients?

Yes, the published science on masks is not strong. Because most other coronviruses (other than COVID-19) did not spread asymptomatically and were less transmissible. Early on in the pandemic, the consensus was against masks because 1) We had a shortage of masks and 2) Public health experts/physicians believed spread happaned after people were symptomatic so the relative benefit of asymptomatic people wearing it every day was thought to be low.

Since then, we have plenty of mechanistic data (asymptomatic spread, data on volume of droplets with/without masks), epidemiological data (i.e. Hong Kong/Czech Republic/South Korea), etc strongly suggestive that masks reduce spread. As far as I can tell, masks are politicized in the USA and nowhere else (okay maybe also in the UK). And the rest of the world has adopted masks as an essential public health measure.

Do I know the hazard ratio from masks if it was tested in an RCT? No. It could be 0.1, it could be 0.5, it could be 0.99. I could guess/hope based on the RR/epidemiologic data but there are too many confounders.

But for an intervention with such low toxicity (none?), strong signal of efficacy, and recommended by "expert consensus" worldwide....yeah I'm going to mask up and recommend everyone else do the same.

 

[GoSpursGo]

We support discussion of minority scientific opinions and important medical topics. However, all available scientific data make it clear that wearing masks and practicing social distancing is of great public health importance in combating the COVID pandemic. Allowing misinformation to spread is literally costing lives, and in this exceptional circumstance SDN will not allow posts that perpetuate false claims and conspiracy theories that argue against these measures.

Accordingly, in line with our current policy, this thread is being closed.