Mass applications,...why?

[Old Man Rich]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I often read posts here telling people to apply to 10 OR MORE schools to increase your odds of getting in somewhere. I think that is bad advice unless the person applying is a longshot at getting into school ANYWHERE and is just hoping SOMEONE will let them in.

Acceptance statistics to most schools is available, so an applicant should have a pretty good idea whether their application is competitive when they apply.

I read a lot of posts now where people are dumping their interview invites because the cost of travel and lodging for the interviews is not justifiable given that they probably would not accept a seat to the school if they were accepted. In fact, I think I will have probably $800 plus using up two vacation days for the first interview I am attending. So, to cancel the interview means the $35 or so paid to AACOMAS per school to send your data to the school plus the $50-$75 fee for the secondary application is just thrown to the wind.

It seems more logical that people would advise applicants to research the schools and the surrounding area using all the free tools they have available first, and then apply to something in the neighborhood of four schools.

But,..I guess if you have enough money that throwing it away isn't a concern,....

 

[OSUdoc08]

I often read posts here telling people to apply to 10 OR MORE schools to increase your odds of getting in somewhere. I think that is bad advice unless the person applying is a longshot at getting into school ANYWHERE and is just hoping SOMEONE will let them in.

Acceptance statistics to most schools is available, so an applicant should have a pretty good idea whether their application is competitive when they apply.

I read a lot of posts now where people are dumping their interview invites because the cost of travel and lodging for the interviews is not justifiable given that they probably would not accept a seat to the school if they were accepted. In fact, I think I will have probably $800 plus using up two vacation days for the first interview I am attending. So, to cancel the interview means the $35 or so paid to AACOMAS per school to send your data to the school plus the $50-$75 fee for the secondary application is just thrown to the wind.

It seems more logical that people would advise applicants to research the schools and the surrounding area using all the free tools they have available first, and then apply to something in the neighborhood of four schools.

But,..I guess if you have enough money that throwing it away isn't a concern,....

Getting accepted to medical school is a crapshoot, and acceptance rates don't correlate with average scores. For example, I was accepted to schools that had higher MCAT/GPA averages than schools I was rejected to. As a result, you cannot base your application decisions on stats alone. There is no way to tell what random why they are going to take people, and to maximize your chances, AND offer you the choice to go somewhere that is the most fitting on you based on where you are accepted, it is important to apply to many schools.

Just look on here at the number of reapplicants, and you'll easily see that they all wished they had applied to more schools. You are risking using EVEN MORE money, and wasting a year of your life if you don't apply to enough schools the first time.

I know people that have EXTREMELY high GPA's & MCAT's that were rejected from the only medical school they applied to.

If using a few more hundred dollars is MORE of a concern to you than getting into medical school the first time, then you are entering the wrong career. In medicine, such small amounts of money are not a big deal. If you aren't willing to borrow large amounts of money, with the easy payback when you become a practicing physician, then you just don't get it.

 

[Old Man Rich]

Getting accepted to medical school is a crapshoot, and acceptance rates don't correlate with average scores. For example, I was accepted to schools that had higher MCAT/GPA averages than schools I was rejected to. As a result, you cannot base your application decisions on stats alone. There is no way to tell what random why they are going to take people, and to maximize your chances, AND offer you the choice to go somewhere that is the most fitting on you based on where you are accepted, it is important to apply to many schools.

Just look on here at the number of reapplicants, and you'll easily see that they all wished they had applied to more schools. You are risking using EVEN MORE money, and wasting a year of your life if you don't apply to enough schools the first time.

I know people that have EXTREMELY high GPA's & MCAT's that were rejected from the only medical school they applied to.

If using a few more hundred dollars is MORE of a concern to you than getting into medical school the first time, then you are entering the wrong career. In medicine, such small amounts of money are not a big deal. If you aren't willing to borrow large amounts of money, with the easy payback when you become a practicing physician, then you just don't get it.

If you re-read what I wrote you will see that I said people are applying and turning down their interviews. Why would you suggest that people apply to schools when they can't afford to interview? There is quite a big difference between spending money and wasting it.

Easy payback? Apparently you haven't spoken to any of the more than dozen physicians I interviewed. I assure you that I 'get it.' The monetary payback I will recieve has nearly zero to do with why I am applying other than I do have concerns about a six figure student loan. One DO that I interviewed walked away from WVSOM with a $250K student loan.

From what I have read, many schools have acceptace rates as high as 17 out of 20 of those who interview. That doesn't sound like much of a crapshoot to me.

 

[OSUdoc08]

If you re-read what I wrote you will see that I said people are applying and turning down their interviews. Why would you suggest that people apply to schools when they can't afford to interview? There is quite a big difference between spending money and wasting it.

Easy payback? Apparently you haven't spoken to any of the more than dozen physicians I interviewed. I assure you that I 'get it.' The monetary payback I will recieve has nearly zero to do with why I am applying other than I do have concerns about a six figure student loan. One DO that I interviewed walked away from WVSOM with a $250K student loan.

From what I have read, many schools have acceptace rates as high as 17 out of 20 of those who interview. That doesn't sound like much of a crapshoot to me.

1. You don't know you are going to even get an interview at the point you apply.

2. I'll have a $175K student loan. 10% of my salary over 10 years is nothing.

3. The acceptance rate out of interview isn't a crapshoot. Getting an interview from an application is. Mass applications are done before you know you will recieve an interview.

4. The purpose of interviews is to decide which school you want to go to. It is important to go to several interviews to decide which school is the right fit for you, instead of deciding what school to go to off of a website.

 

[jonb12997]

Take this example... My friend and I applied to 4 of the same schools, UNE, WVSOM, UHS, PCOM... I heard from and got interviews at UNE, WV, UHS heard nothing from PCOM... my friend interviewed at UNE, PCOM, and heard nothing from UHS and WV. Random? Definetly! You've got to apply to a bunch of schools just to be sure you'll get in.

An undergrad friend applied to two schools with a high 30 MCAT, almost 4.0 GPA and heard nothing from either school... you've got to apply to a bunch if you want a shot.

 

[Old Man Rich]

Take this example... My friend and I applied to 4 of the same schools, UNE, WVSOM, UHS, PCOM... I heard from and got interviews at UNE, WV, UHS heard nothing from PCOM... my friend interviewed at UNE, PCOM, and heard nothing from UHS and WV. Random? Definetly! You've got to apply to a bunch of schools just to be sure you'll get in.

An undergrad friend applied to two schools with a high 30 MCAT, almost 4.0 GPA and heard nothing from either school... you've got to apply to a bunch if you want a shot.

Those are extremely competitive numbers for DO school and fairly competitive at the average MD school.

Three questions.
1) Were they applying DO or MD?
2) Were any of these applications to state schools where this person applied from out of state?
3) Did they apply early or late? Applying early appears to be the advice that when followed, carries a lot of weight.

By the way, I never said put all your marbels in one or two schools. I said limit it somewhat instead of applying in mass,...especially in the case (that I see happening) where you won't even accept the interview if you get it.

 

[jonb12997]

I don't think the details matter, your point is very well taken, it does seem crazy to spend all the money especially if you're not going to go to the interview... what would have happened if I had only applied to PCOM, OUCOM, KCOM, and UMDNJ. I wouldn't have heard anything and wouldn't be in medical school. I also didn't really want to go to LECOM (definetly nothing against the school, it just wasn't my fit), but I still sent in my application because I never knew what the other schools would say.

I guess if your scores are good enough that you're pretty sure you'll at least hear from one school, you might as well save the money. I think the point we're trying to make is in the long run, what is another couple thousand dollars (at the most) if you're talking about your lifetime career...

 

[dr.z]

I think stats alone doesn't determine whether you get in or not. I think people are being cautious when applying to more schools. I applied to more schools than I would go. In retrospect, I probably didn't need to. But at the time of application, I didn't know that it is going to turn out this way.

 

[jonb12997]

I think people are being cautious when applying to more schools.

Dr. Z hit it right on the head here with this statement... kind of the point I was trying to get across, but I guess my pre-frontal cortex wasn't talking with my brocha's well enough... ok, back to neuroanatomy 😉

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I'm staring to agree with you, too, Rich. I think I honestly overapplied to schools, especially considering the fact that I'm comfortable attending a DO school. I think it makes sense for most applicants to focus their application on their state schools and then go from there. Those of us from unfriendly states are going to have to apply to a few more schools, but I'm starting to think that applying to 30 schools just isn't feasible both in terms of expense and time.

 

[DD214_DOC]

I applied last year with a decent GPA and a crappy MCAT score and received interviews to all 3 schools I applied to. Rejected from 2 and didn't go to the third.

This year I'm applying with higher numbers all around and have yet to hear anything from those same schools.

 

[MoosePilot]

I don't understand why anyone would turn down interviews prior to being accepted. That's stupid (in my opinion), but I think it happens because the number of interviews gives them confidence that they'll get in and then they decide to save some $.

As for applying to a lot of schools, I applied to 20. I'm going to go to every interview until I have an acceptance, then I'm going to drop any schools that I'm not dying to go to. It all depends on how risk averse you are. For me, I've got enough money to do this the optimum way.

 

[daveyjwin]

IMHO, if I get 4 interviews, and each of them is going to cost me $500, that's $2000. But when you think that my tuition alone is going to be at least 10x that, it's insignificant. If I can dramatically increase my chance of acceptance at any school, i'd be willing to put that $500 down, because you never know, and you might only get accepted to your last choice school.

And even though I applied to a few schools I'd rather not go to, if they were the only ones I got accepted at, I'd be there in a second.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

but what if you just straight up don't have the money to interview? i'm getting close to the point where i'll have to go into credit card debt and totally wipe out all my savings (excluding my 401k) to go to all my interviews and pay deposits. sure, in the long run it'll all work out, but i don't want to enter medical school with thousands of dollars in credit card debt.

 

[daveyjwin]

I am paying for my interviews with a credit card. It may not be the ideal circumstance, but any debt you incur will be easily paid off when you get done with it all.

 

[ambernikel]

After first getting online here, I too couldn't believe the amount of schools people were applying to. I talked to many docs and advisors and decided on this...
Apply to a few "safety" schools where you feel very competitive. Apply to the schools you really want to go to and one or two "long shots". I applied to 6 schools: 2 most likely, 2 possible and 2 long shots. This may prove to be a poor tactic and I think the schools available in your state also make a big difference (we have 4 schools in MO: 2 DO, 2MD). However, I just couldn't bring myself to apply to schools that I wasn't confident I would actually go there even if it were the only school that accepted me.

If you are just applying to a "bunch" >10-15 just to increase your odds and really have no desire to go to those schools, then don't. If you don't plan on interviewing then why waste the money to apply??
I also think that when a school gets your app and sees you have applied to 15+ schools it will look bad.
HOWEVER, I think applying only to a few schools is a very bad idea!!! Why would you limit yourself???
Of course many factors play into the amount you should apply to. Such as your stats, in state preferences, and when you are applying. If you are applying in December/January then yeah apply to >10-15 schools because most will already have their slots filled.

Anyway, to each their own. I think that no matter what your stats are you should never apply to only one school. Even if you do get accepted what if you find it wasn't what you had really expected or wanted? Interviewing is not just to see if the school wants you but also if you want the school.

It boils down to what you are comfortable with. If I don't get into any of the schools I applied to this year, I am ok with that. I would rather take a year off and try again than to try and move somewhere I don't want to be. If you aren't that confident in what you want then maybe you should apply at a larger range.
Well thats my two cents.

 

[mj1878]

I really think that in applying to a large number of schools, people are trying to procure the "ideal" situation of having to choose which acceptances to turn down, so that they can have at least SOME say in where they live for the next while. I know that I personally would go anywhere that would take me, but in the end I would like to have the opportunity to sit down with my wife and go over the pros and cons of each location, and pick the best for us. Applying only to the "school of your dreams" is risky, and as has been stated above, potentially costly. Why in the world would you risk having to go through this costly, bureaucratic, tedious process two years in a row? What possible good could come from it, unless you savor pain and suffering? 😳

 

[Old Man Rich]

What Ambernikel wrote was the same strategy I used,....I picked two schools were I really wanted to go, two others I felt I would be satisfied with where I felt I was very competitive and finally one school as a fallback plan. This fit my comfort level.

Something that I think is alarming on some of these posts is the idea that once you become a doctor any money mess you carry with you will be easily knocked out when you finish school. Have some of you saying this actually taken the time to interview active physicians? The repeating theme I hear again and again from them is that Insurance companies and the government make the profession less and less lucrative year after year. Also I actually had someone write to me that they are not going to be one of those 'low paid family practice doctors.' Well, primary care is indeed where the highest percentage of doctors end up so a little bit of caution might be in order.

A suggestion would be for ALL of you to read a GREAT book called the Millionaire Next Door. It was published in 1996 and in one section it has a profile of two atual physicians both around age 50 with very high incomes. Although both doctors had an income of right at 700K per year(and this was NINE years ago mind you!),...one had a net worth of above 12 million and the other had a net worth of 400K. The book is a best seller and was based on years of research and interviews with millionaires. If you read the book you might find some similarity in the philosophy of the doctor with the 400K net worth and some of what I am reading people here write in terms of money management/expectations here.

Also, if you haven't been introduced to the guy in the link below, now you are.

http://www.daveramsey.com/

 

[crys20]

this is why...because it is cheaper to go big once than to skimp and have to do it all over again the next year. if you apply wide, and you see what happens, you interview, you get options, you decide...you're inevitably going to have made a better more informed decision than you would have otherwise! the debt from the application process truly is small compared to what you have from 4 years of med.

 

[lexrageorge]

OldMan,

I understand your point. But acceptance rates at most medical schools are 10% or less. There are really no "safety" schools for the majority of applicants. It is a process that most want to go through only once. 10-15 schools is really not that many to apply to.

I do agree that it makes no sense to apply to a place where you have no interest in attending. That is truly a waste of money. But spending a few hundred dollars in extra application fees is still cheaper than applying twice.

 

[kimt2234]

WOW! I am new to all of this and am applying for 2008 admission (non-trad). I spoke to my plastic surgeon who is a close family friend (not what you are thinking, I was born with a cleft palate and lip, this is not about botox and breast augmentation) and who has been a doctor for 30+ years. I asked his feedback on going to med school and while he advised it, he also said the medicine today is not the medicine of ten years ago because of managed care. Doctor's don't get paid near what they used to (and it seems to be decreasing, yikes) and his take on it was that it was going to get worse before it got better. He also said that some sort of major overhaul of the entire healthcare system was on the horizon.

One of my best friend's dad's was an ob/gyn for 35+ years and he just retired (not because he wanted to) because of the HMO's and the price of malpractice insurance. I don't know how concerned we prospecticve med students should be, but I just wanted to throw this out there for discussion since it seems inevitable that it will affect us all. IN addiiton, I am new to this business so any dirt about this topic that could be shared would be much appreciated.
Thanks

 

[Ski2Doc]

That puts it straight, the primary/secondary apps are relatively cheap, and you gotta go mass b/c you dont know if you ll get an invite. Once you start getting invites you take it easier and relax. I am going to interviews in schools i want to go and the fallback schoolS are there just in case.

 

[misparas]

Here is how I decided to do it.

Applying early! I submitted 8 primary applications. Of these 8, I picked my top 4. I mailed in my secondaries for those. I figured that I could send in the others if I heard nothing. I now have interviews at all 4 of these schools. So things look ok so far. I'll let you know if it works out for me.

I think that if you know where you stand with most schools (compared to average stats, etc.), you can get away with applying to fewer schools.

However, I do agree, better safe than sorry. Spend the money up front. It's not worth a years wait.

 

[DD214_DOC]

I don't understand why anyone would turn down interviews prior to being accepted.

Not everyone can afford to go to every interview.

 

[Lindyhopper]

Re OP's ideas, perhaps the most short sighted analysis, I've ever read.

 

[ShyRem]

I applied to MD and DO. I applied to 7 MD schools and 7 DO schools. I have four interviews so far, three this month and the 4th I scheduled later in October figuring if I got an acceptance from one of the first three I can cancel the 4th one (the 4th school is MUCH more expensive for OOS and I couldn't work the travel into my other three interviews which are scheduled close together).

And as for crapshoot - I have an MD school interview. KCOM rejected me. Go figure.

 

[bkpa2med]

shyrem,
what are your stats like?

 

[ShyRem]

Per amcas:
MCAT Score: 29
BCPM GPA: 3.28
Overall GPA: 3.23
I have horrible grades from years ago, but started over and graduated with a 3.5-3.6 GPA in a chem/math dual degree in 3 years. Also a boatload of medical experience. BTW: aacomas figured my GPAs differently:
Sci: 3.40
Nonsci: 2.82
I had four failing classes with no credit from those horrible grades years ago - aacomas assigned them all 4 credits each. Amcas left them as they were on my transcript - failing grades with no credit.