Mass General OMFS Program...

[CranioFacial]

Any thoughts on Mass General's OMFS 6yr program?
Strengths?
Weaknesses?
What is the 1yr internship like?
Is it a "good" place to extern?

Thanks!

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[2TH PULR]

MGH is a rigorous program. The residents work very hard. I was there for a month as an extern and had really mixed thoughts about the program. The surgeons seem very arrogant and did not treat the residents very well. Maybe that's just their method. Sometimes, though, the residents seemed like robots doing chores without fully understanding everything. If you want to go impress people as an extern, you'll work yourself to death and you won't sleep much. But Harvard Medical School is sweet.

 

[6897round2]

Hello,
I also externed there about two years ago, so things may have changed, but here's my impression:

I had a decent time there. There are a lot of private patients, but the residents do get to cut quite a bit. There's a private service and a ward service (run by the residents).

Here's, according to me, the pros and cons:

Pros:
-Large faculty covering numerous hospitals
-Extensive pediatric/craniofacial, orthognathic and TMJ experience
-Good trauma experience (they do the majority of operative facial trauma at the MGH; certainly more than plastics)
-Fairly good relationship with plastics (ENT isn't really part of the picture, since they're at another hospital)
-Cancer experience acquired by rotation on Head and Neck Service at Mass Eye and Ear for 4 months
-Great place to work if you like research

Cons:
-Some malignant personalities, though I heard its not as bad as it used to be
-Very expensive medical school (though, apparently they have great financial aid) and moonlighting is NOT allowed
-No cosmetics
-Implant experience is adequate, but not great (chiefs place approximately 60 implants)
-Little to no presence at the dental school
-Six years is a long time to spend living in Boston, one of the most expensive cities in the country
-The interns seem to have their work cut out for them - lots of scut - however, the do get to cut on trauma cases, all of the ward cases and some of the attendings cases (though the chiefs usually do most of these cases), and, in the case of one superstar intern, Kaban let him do half of an orthognathic case.

There's typically a lot of MGH bashing on here, but I've listed what I think are the pros and cons.

I disagree with the sentiments of the previous poster. I think MGH is actually a great program, if you're interested in TMJ, Orthognathic and Pediatric Maxillofacial Surgery (or going to plastics later - it seems that at least 10 - 20% of their residents go on to full ABPS plastics fellowships after OMFS training) and an academic career, this place should be high on your list. However, do NOT rank this program just because you want an MD from Harvard Medical School - that is ABSOLUTELY the wrong thing to use to justify your choice in a residency program.

 

[Vjc]

How about the other two programs in Boston? any thoughts ?

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

it seems that at least 10 - 20% of their residents go on to full ABPS plastics fellowships after OMFS training

hmm.. I don't know about you.. but I don't think that 20% of graduates "switching to a different specialty" after graduation would be something I would brag about as being a reflection of good training in OMS.


Now.. if you told me about the 10-20% of plastics residents who go on to complete full Maxfacs programs after plastics, then you'd have a point.

 

[6897round2]

hmm.. I don't know about you.. but I don't think that 20% of graduates "switching to a different specialty" after graduation would be something I would brag about as being a reflection of good training in OMS.


Now.. if you told me about the 10-20% of plastics residents who go on to complete full Maxfacs programs after plastics, then you'd have a point.

You seem to be misunderstanding me - I just mentioned that 1-2 residents (if you have 3 residents per year, and 1 resident goes to plastics every other year, then 1 out of 6 is about 16%) had gone on to plastics fellowships after OMFS training; the comment wasn't meant to suggest that the program is strong because of that.

My point was that they get a very diverse craniofacial experience, and SOME choose to use the "road more traveled" approach to becoming a craniofacial surgeon (Plastics + Craniofacial fellowship) rather than the "road less traveled" approach (OMFS + Craniofacial fellowship). Anyway you slice it, though the end product is similar, the plastics route does buy a little less difficulty in terms of privileges in major academic centers.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

You seem to be misunderstanding me - I just mentioned that 1-2 residents (if you have 3 residents per year, and 1 resident goes to plastics every other year, then 1 out of 6 is about 16%) had gone on to plastics fellowships after OMFS training; the comment wasn't meant to suggest that the program is strong because of that.

My point was that they get a very diverse craniofacial experience, and SOME choose to use the "road more traveled" approach to becoming a craniofacial surgeon (Plastics + Craniofacial fellowship) rather than the "road less traveled" approach (OMFS + Craniofacial fellowship). Anyway you slice it, though the end product is similar, the plastics route does buy a little less difficulty in terms of privileges in major academic centers.

I do understand what you are saying.. and yes, there are more plastics trained craniofacial surgeons out there currently than omfs trained craniofacial surgeons.

But the end product between the two routes I agree is about the same.. actually some may argue that the OMFS + Craniofacial fellowship trained surgeon is actually more qualified in craniofacial because of they would have had a lot more experience and logged more numbers during their training in relevant H/N procedures than a plastics would have because the plastics guys have to spend so much more time during their limited 2-3 year training program on full body cosmetics, hand recon, burns, etc.

I believe this to be true.. and the only way to really support our specialty is to discourage graduates who wish to do craniofacial "going the easier route" and switching specialties.

In the long run... the numbers and access will be equal for both specialties.

 

[CranioFacial]

I appreciate the responses, keep them coming.

 

[The Masticator]

I have the same question. Any input on the other boston programs would be great.

 

[Doggie]

But the end product between the two routes I agree is about the same.. actually some may argue that the OMFS + Craniofacial fellowship trained surgeon is actually more qualified in craniofacial because of they would have had a lot more experience and logged more numbers during their training in relevant H/N procedures than a plastics would have because the plastics guys have to spend so much more time during their limited 2-3 year training program on full body cosmetics, hand recon, burns, etc.

I agree with you. However when the craniofacial surgeon sets up a private shop, the general public will be more attracted to the neurosurgeons or plastic surgeons.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I agree with you. However when the craniofacial surgeon sets up a private shop, the general public will be more attracted to the neurosurgeons or plastic surgeons.

And who'se fault is that? --> (OURS)

At the moment.. Yes, that is usually true.

...and if we continue to think that way ourselves and encourage our (OMFS) graduates to do plastics if they are interested in craniofacial...Then this will NEVER change.

If, however.. we encourage our graduates to do craniofacial fellowships after OMFS and not to sell out to plastics (+ craniofacial fellowship) (the easy route)...

And.. we as a specialty work on providing more public education.

Then it will be better for all of us in the long run and things will change.


That's my opinion anyways..

 

[I'mFillingFine]

Any experiences with the GPRs at MGH, Brigham & Women's, and New England? Thanks! I'm a Masshole born and raised and am thinking of heading to Boston for a GPR.

 

[Slechts1Leven]

Hello,
I also externed there about two years ago, so things may have changed, but here's my impression:

I had a decent time there. There are a lot of private patients, but the residents do get to cut quite a bit. There's a private service and a ward service (run by the residents).

Here's, according to me, the pros and cons:

Pros:
-Large faculty covering numerous hospitals
-Extensive pediatric/craniofacial, orthognathic and TMJ experience
-Good trauma experience (they do the majority of operative facial trauma at the MGH; certainly more than plastics)
-Fairly good relationship with plastics (ENT isn't really part of the picture, since they're at another hospital)
-Cancer experience acquired by rotation on Head and Neck Service at Mass Eye and Ear for 4 months
-Great place to work if you like research

Cons:
-Some malignant personalities, though I heard its not as bad as it used to be
-Very expensive medical school (though, apparently they have great financial aid) and moonlighting is NOT allowed
-No cosmetics
-Implant experience is adequate, but not great (chiefs place approximately 60 implants)
-Little to no presence at the dental school
-Six years is a long time to spend living in Boston, one of the most expensive cities in the country
-The interns seem to have their work cut out for them - lots of scut - however, the do get to cut on trauma cases, all of the ward cases and some of the attendings cases (though the chiefs usually do most of these cases), and, in the case of one superstar intern, Kaban let him do half of an orthognathic case.

There's typically a lot of MGH bashing on here, but I've listed what I think are the pros and cons.

I disagree with the sentiments of the previous poster. I think MGH is actually a great program, if you're interested in TMJ, Orthognathic and Pediatric Maxillofacial Surgery (or going to plastics later - it seems that at least 10 - 20% of their residents go on to full ABPS plastics fellowships after OMFS training) and an academic career, this place should be high on your list. However, do NOT rank this program just because you want an MD from Harvard Medical School - that is ABSOLUTELY the wrong thing to use to justify your choice in a residency program.

when you say

-Extensive pediatric/craniofacial, orthognathic and TMJ experience
-Good trauma experience (they do the majority of operative facial trauma at the MGH; certainly more than plastics)
-Fairly good relationship with plastics (ENT isn't really part of the picture, since they're at another hospital)

Does that mean they cut the whole cases? Do you think it is enough experience once they leave residency, like actual cutting or watching? sorry for the ignorance