Mass Layoffs in Tech

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mentos

mentos

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In my opinion, these companies won’t offer the same comp after the economy recovers. Why? Everybody is a tech or CS major these days. They need to elevate stock prices again by cutting expenses
 
Not sure about Amazon but you need to just see how the business is doing in general. Just because Netflix is losing subscribers doesn't mean other businesses that use their own software are also facing the same issues.
 
We were just talking about this at home last night. I think maybe the people who are already in the game will be fine but anyone joining might not have the same prosperity. Hot hand?
 
KCAB said:
That is not how it works in tech. The older you are the less competitive you are. At 40, can you learn a new language faster than someone who is 24? Can you still work 12 hours a day when you have kids?

You have to move up to the management ladder if you want to stay competitive.
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I work in tech, and this is a super broad generalization that doesn't apply at all in my sector. We're not code monkeys fighting to stay competitive. Well, maybe the code monkeys are. But not necessarily everyone is in that boat.
 
KCAB said:
That is not how it works in tech. The older you are the less competitive you are. At 40, can you learn a new language faster than someone who is 24? Can you still work 12 hours a day when you have kids?

You have to move up to the management ladder if you want to stay competitive.
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I guess I should have expanded on what I said. Ageism happens anywhere, even in pharmacy. Can you still work 12s and stay fast in retail at 40 vs 25? With kids? Probably not. You’re right. It’s probably harsher in tech where you have to continually learn new stuff.

I guess what I meant is anyone who are in the field may be in better shape than someone trying to break into the field just now (read: established tech people are probably seeing the trend and moving up, anyone at the bottom or starting, it’s going to suck for you. Again, see pharmacy.)

Similar to pharmacy, climbing up the ladder protects you.
 
KCAB said:
That is how it is at the big tech. It is a dog eat dog out there.

Hate to break it to you but on average our cognitive ability peak in your 20-30s. You can compensate some of that with experiences but when the field is rapidly changing, experiences can only do so much. Coupled that with the lack of time and family obligations…..you are at a major disadvantage in tech.

news.mit.edu

The rise and fall of cognitive skills

Neuroscientists from MIT and Massachusetts General Hospital find that brain functions do not all peak at the same age.
news.mit.edu news.mit.edu
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I get that. But tech isn't something where formal training makes you the most qualified necessarily. We have daily briefings, I listen to a daily news podcast (cyber specific), and we're constantly training at work. If you have any certifications, those also require documented training.

In pharmacy, I knocked out my CEs in a weekend (typically the one before I needed to renew my license). I even did some paid CEs and they were crap. In tech, I'm constantly absorbing info. You don't need to know everything, your team as a whole does.
 
pharm B said:
I get that. But tech isn't something where formal training makes you the most qualified necessarily. We have daily briefings, I listen to a daily news podcast (cyber specific), and we're constantly training at work. If you have any certifications, those also require documented training.

In pharmacy, I knocked out my CEs in a weekend (typically the one before I needed to renew my license). I even did some paid CEs and they were crap. In tech, I'm constantly absorbing info. You don't need to know everything, your team as a whole does.
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But he does have a point. Younger, hungrier people learn better. We’re more immune to it in pharmacy, relatively. Ageism is likely a little harsher in tech than in pharmacy.
 
projektreverb said:
But he does have a point. Younger, hungrier people learn better. We’re more immune to it in pharmacy, relatively. Ageism is likely a little harsher in tech than in pharmacy.
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I agree, though I also think it's much more visible. How many retail pharmacists are there across the country across all chains and indies, maybe 300k? Remember when Walmart started laying off senior people to save money? I actually encountered an older pharmacist in the wild who refuses to do vaccinations. Wouldn't even get certified and let the techs do it (state law allows).

Now I wonder about older pharmacists juggling the various pneumonia combos, COVID primary and booster combos across various age ranges and immune system statuses, and the phone is ringing and OMG WHY IS EVERYTHING ON FIRE.

I had an older loved one ask me once if I'd recommend she come out of retirement to work in a pharmacy as a clerk to "help the pharmacist." I told her she'd retire again in a week.
 
Not everyone laid off was a software engineer. Many were recruiters, marketing, PMs etc.
 
Retail definitely does favor younger people because of the nature of the work. Working 12 hour shifts with one 30 minute break and multitasking every few seconds making split second decisions is not for older people.
 
The easy days of tech are certainly coming to a close. With higher interest rates venture capital funds have dried up and all the tech startups are toast. Investors are calling for the balance sheets to be cleaned up. If anyone was around in the 2000 to 2005 era they will know an entire generation of computer science majors and coders languished after the dot com bubble burst. Many of these people got laid off and never found another tech job because the languages and technical expertise required changed so fast.
It will be interesting to see what happens now as it seems we have another generation that only wants to work tech jobs and work at home and all the other sectors such as manufacturing, agriculture, construction, retail, healthcare, hospitality, teaching are facing staff shortages.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
The entire tech sector seems like it's run by a bunch of goofs.
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The nicest thing so far is... there's no expectation to manage. I'm happy to never be one of those goofs.

DH1987 said:
Retail definitely does favor younger people because of the nature of the work. Working 12 hour shifts with one 30 minute break and multitasking every few seconds making split second decisions is not for older people.
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Wonder if there's a suit in there somewhere. There's no way the non-vaccinating pharmacist mentioned above could hack it at a modern Walgreens, etc.
 
MatCauthon said:
It will be interesting to see what happens now as it seems we have another generation that only wants to work tech jobs and work at home and all the other sectors such as manufacturing, agriculture, construction, retail, healthcare, hospitality, teaching are facing staff shortages.
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This is what really has my attention right now. The disparity is real, but it's based primarily on working conditions in the meat space. Who wants to work in customer service any more?

At a recent conference, they pointed out that the number of cybersecurity professionals grew last year, but the need for them grew even further. And it's more cost effective to have a security group in your org than to have an incident happen, especially if you're dealing with HIPAA, PHI, etc.
 
KCAB said:
Our days as a pharmacist will come to an end too. I am just riding the wave until it comes crashing down.

Don’t be that miserable and unemployed 40 year old pharmacist. You should at least have a couple of realistic plans in place.
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The one saving grace to pharmacy is we have a legal barrier (license) to entry in our field(for now). Maybe that will buffer the blow compared to tech?
 
KCAB said:
That is how it is at the big tech. It is a dog eat dog out there.

Hate to break it to you but on average our cognitive ability peak in your 20-30s. You can compensate some of that with experiences but when the field is rapidly changing, experiences can only do so much. Coupled that with the lack of time and family obligations…..you are at a major disadvantage in tech.

news.mit.edu

The rise and fall of cognitive skills

Neuroscientists from MIT and Massachusetts General Hospital find that brain functions do not all peak at the same age.
news.mit.edu news.mit.edu
Click to expand...
Employers are going to trust the senior engineer who has experience in several different projects over someone younger and new. I don't think you understand just how much experience in 1 technology transfers over to new technology that was derived from the older technology.

WVUPharm2007 said:
The entire tech sector seems like it's run by a bunch of goofs.
Click to expand...
The engineers and developers I would say are the grunts. Sometimes expectations are made that are unreasonable and cannot fully be met, especially if the time given to implement the function is extremely small. Engineers/developers can ask why something is done 1 way when there is a better way to do it, but the final word is not going to be from the ones who are just given the task.
 
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KCAB said:
Is that why virtually all the founders are young?
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How many tech offices have you visited? Its not all college students. Its mostly older senior developers/engineers. Do you work as a developer or engineer somewhere?
 
KCAB said:
It is a known fact that older software engineers get the axe. Do I need to visit CVS stores to know retail pharmacists are miserable?
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Lmao, I can't tell if you actually want to be right this bad without having written a single if statement or if you are just trolling me.

Was about to write my entire post as code just to see if you actually work in tech but I already know you don't based on what you think is going on.

And just to really drive the point home on how important all senior engineers/developers are, let me post this joke about how juniors feel universally

 
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It’s all cyclical, we’re swinging back into pharmacist shortage mode after a lot of oversupply years.

Comp sci was the same in the beginning of the 2000s and again at the close of the decade. Great time to swoop in and get good talent if you still have some wiggle in your VC funding.
 
KCAB said:
You are a small time programmer who apparently still needs pharmacy to put food on the table. This tech layoff is going to cause a cascade and will eventually affect you too.

Your experience certainly does not apply to big tech. That is just the harsh reality of being a programmer. Boom and bust cycle is an accepted fact. So is older and non competitive engineers are the first to go and are the last to get hired.
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Yikes, too insecure to admit when you don't know anything and double down by making assumptions about me.
You are like a pre-pharm undergrad trying to tell an actual pharmacist what its like to work as a pharmacist. I have to assume you are trolling at this point.
 
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KCAB said:
A guy with a certificate from a coding boot camp is now telling us he is the only one who can speak on tech employment and tech boom and bust cycle. Why should we listen to you when google tells a different story?
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Who are you talking about? I seriously hope you didn't take advice from that 1 poster here who told everyone to just learn coding from youtube to land a job as a developer/engineer.
Please stop talking like you work in tech just because you read 1 article about "A day in the life of a Google intern"
But go ahead, you can get your last word in. Nobody wants to listen to the undergrad talking about pharmacy profession.
 
For tech yes, I think it's getting tough out there.
For specialty fields in biotech involving heavy programming though, I am still getting spammed for jobs this week, AD levels and above, 170k-215k base with bonus and stocks etc.

I guess specialization makes the whole difference. Let's keep the involution going 😆🤣😂
 
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letsquitpharm said:
For tech yes, I think it's getting tough out there.
For specialty fields in biotech involving heavy programming though, I am still getting spammed for jobs this week, AD levels and above, 170k-215k base with equity and stocks etc.

I guess specialization makes the whole difference. Let's keep the involution going 😆🤣😂
Click to expand...
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t this like saying retail pharmacy is taking a **** but hey my PGY-X hospital gig is still doing alright?
 
projektreverb said:
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t this like saying retail pharmacy is taking a **** but hey my PGY-X hospital gig is still doing alright?
Click to expand...
I think my context is justified here. For a pharmd with solid programming skills, it is only a matter of time to land such a job. I was one such guy.

PGY-X? I have no chance of ever landing a PGY, and most people only have a few attempts, but a pharmd dev have a lifetime to get that job, and the chance only goes up.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
The entire tech sector seems like it's run by a bunch of goofs.
Click to expand...
confettiflyer said:
It’s all cyclical, we’re swinging back into pharmacist shortage mode after a lot of oversupply years.

Comp sci was the same in the beginning of the 2000s and again at the close of the decade. Great time to swoop in and get good talent if you still have some wiggle in your VC funding.
Click to expand...

I went to school with a bunch of the laid off tech workers in 2000. It made a strong impression on how the business works. I never saw or currently see any particular job as a forever one. I think the people who managed to work 30+ years in a career field and position are blessed and are the exception rather than the norm. Pharmacy is the same way, it has its cycles.

The cycle happens again, it's that classic overproduction scenario. What my generation doesn't know yet from the way some of those entitled responses were is that once part of a single corporate culture, others won't hire you. I know quite a number of major companies that specifically will not hire from Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook, and Google as the company culture they came from is toxic to their own. And without VC money, it'll be slow going for about 5 years. Who knows what the recovery is like?

There's some of us on this board who were tech and went into pharmacy. For most tech matters like everything else, you have to constantly reprove your worth all the time, @pharm B not excepted either as it's an expectation in tech more so than others that part of your generous compensation is for off-the-clock CE, so I usually say to my students who go into tech that the work expectation is at least 40 a week on the clock and between 5-10 off the clock if reasonably efficient. This is just as onerous as physicians with maintaining their ABMS but more difficult as learning trends and which future technologies to invest in is tricky as there's more opportunities than time. It's not a predator world outside the the famous companies, but you can't fall behind either (unless you're in government).

This is why I've never had the triumphalism on tech that others have as the comparison in our own industry is to be an MSA or industry person who makes 1.5-4X a chain pharmacist at baseline. Working for those newsworthy companies pays well, but it's brutually competitive. I've always though the real money was in those companies that make it a point not to be in the news and charge rapacious rates (cybersecurity companies and "support" ones especially) which is my own preference for contracting after work. The culture with the company I pair with the most is business casual but none of the tech bro shenanigans, but it charges rates on the level of the Big 4 consulting groups. They're actually in Twitter and Meta right now as scabs while locking out workers who intend on sabotage.
 
lord999 said:
... as it's an expectation in tech more so than others that part of your generous compensation is for off-the-clock CE, so I usually say to my students who go into tech that the work expectation is at least 40 a week on the clock and between 5-10 off the clock if reasonably efficient. This is just as onerous as physicians with maintaining their ABMS but more difficult as learning trends and which future technologies to invest in is tricky as there's more opportunities than time. It's not a predator world outside the the famous companies, but you can't fall behind either (unless you're in government).
Click to expand...
This is where I've wondered if my job is too good to be true. From what I've seen over the last year, IT is full of people who will do just the bare minimum and collect their paycheck. Compare them to someone competitive, and they suddenly look like low hanging fruit when it comes time to trim. My job all but encourages you to do training on the clock. For example, they want me to do some cloud security training (they'll even pay for the cert). And this year at various conferences I saw people attending that were sponsored by their employers, while I was there on a student discount before I was working somewhere.

I agree with the importance of staying up to date. Listening to daily news updates on cybersecurity is an absolute must if someone is working in security. CE standards are pretty broad from what I've seen. For example, listening to the podcast above for 30 minutes a day can be be reported as 10 hours a month per ISC2's standards. I haven't checked on CompTIA's yet.

But I listen to that CPE while sipping coffee and attending the first "meeting" of the morning every day.

But like I said, I work in security which is different than tech. Every company needs security. Not every company needs a coder, developer, etc. If my ship suddenly went down, there are plenty of others to swim to.
 
pharm B said:
But like I said, I work in security which is different than tech. Every company needs security. Not every company needs a coder, developer, etc. If my ship suddenly went down, there are plenty of others to swim to.
Click to expand...
meh, there is always some new tech to adapt to in order to optimize. just look at all the companies that are "diverse" with their technology
 
pharm B said:
This is where I've wondered if my job is too good to be true. From what I've seen over the last year, IT is full of people who will do just the bare minimum and collect their paycheck. Compare them to someone competitive, and they suddenly look like low hanging fruit when it comes time to trim. My job all but encourages you to do training on the clock. For example, they want me to do some cloud security training (they'll even pay for the cert). And this year at various conferences I saw people attending that were sponsored by their employers, while I was there on a student discount before I was working somewhere.

I agree with the importance of staying up to date. Listening to daily news updates on cybersecurity is an absolute must if someone is working in security. CE standards are pretty broad from what I've seen. For example, listening to the podcast above for 30 minutes a day can be be reported as 10 hours a month per ISC2's standards. I haven't checked on CompTIA's yet.

But I listen to that CPE while sipping coffee and attending the first "meeting" of the morning every day.

But like I said, I work in security which is different than tech. Every company needs security. Not every company needs a coder, developer, etc. If my ship suddenly went down, there are plenty of others to swim to.
Click to expand...
If you're in Cybersecurity, it isn't a workaday sort of job like development, analytics, or system administration. Cybersecurity has the anesthesiology work problem where it's extremely long stretchs of boredom punctuated by a couple of instances a decade of absolute panic. Although you're technically training on the clock, here's how the payback happens.

Another analogy is that cybersecurity is just like being a lineman for a utility company. When it hits the fan, you are expected to put in all the hours necessary for initial containment, and that's not just incident response, that's everyone on that team. This usually means nights, holidays, weekends. It means vacation is cancelled and forced physical travel even from vacation. Training on company time is a nice perk, forced overtime is quite another. And if the company you work for is superliberal in that sense with your billable time, be happy because that's absolutely not the norm. Billiable time is billiable time. And liability, well, most of those companies go through reinsurance as some of the big failures have been massive payouts. Leidos was the latest to lose coverage over those sorts of mistakes.

But most credentials and most up-to-date is paid for by the company as it goes on marketing material or contractually obligated. Don't worry, your training is paid for, but usually as a passthrough due to client requirements.

pharm B said:
At a recent conference, they pointed out that the number of cybersecurity professionals grew last year, but the need for them grew even further. And it's more cost effective to have a security group in your org than to have an incident happen, especially if you're dealing with HIPAA, PHI, etc.
Click to expand...

That's not industry practice for controls for a reason. Yes, you do have a security group within the organziation, but you're supposed to (and required in many cases) to have a disinterested party that does not report to the business due to insider jobs, etc. This is one of the few times you want the Fascist organizational approach of Institutional Darwinism where you have overlapping responsibilities such that no one party can completely screw over another. It's a sort of arms race and lack of trust (to zero trust solutions) that I find tiresome to keep up with even peripherally.
 
lord999 said:
That's not industry practice for controls for a reason. Yes, you do have a security group within the organziation, but you're supposed to (and required in many cases) to have a disinterested party that does not report to the business due to insider jobs, etc. This is one of the few times you want the Fascist organizational approach of Institutional Darwinism where you have overlapping responsibilities such that no one party can completely screw over another. It's a sort of arms race and lack of trust (to zero trust solutions) that I find tiresome to keep up with even peripherally.
Click to expand...
For security, though, my understanding was that companies like MSSPs (umbrella outside provider of security for many, many organizations) tend to not show real ownership since it isn't their company. Meanwhile, companies internally have concepts like divisions of duties, mandatory vacations, etc, to help prevent those potential insider jobs, along with the constant alerts/logs/audits.

As far as using outside orgs for something, that sounds like the common approach to penetration testing, which I totally agree is best accomplished by using an outside org (preferably rotating through several) to minimize the conflict of interest, meet regulatory criteria, etc.

I agree about the bits of boredom punched up with moments of excitement. I love it. I never had the chance to explore your avenues of work. Rather, I just wanted to escape from the hellscape that is retail pharmacy.
 
DagS132 said:
Sucks for Google but awesome for all the other tech companies who are about to get all the tech workers from Google.
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Are there 10k job openings? Seems like a lot.
 
Now tech gets to experience what we did 10–15 years ago.

Still don’t see them get to the point where they have to code for 14 hours on their feet with no bathroom breaks, though.
 
mentos said:
Are there 10k job openings? Seems like a lot.
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Tech isnt just developer and engineer. There are so many different fields its ridiculous. But to answer your question, most likely not in 1 city. But you know, there are plenty of other cities out there i think...
Just look up bls stats as you would normally advise the undergrads on this website. Or just ignore me like the undergrads on this website
 
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Remember when people were convinced self driving trucks were going to replace all truck drivers by 2020?
 
DagS132 said:
Remember when people were convinced self driving trucks were going to replace all truck drivers by 2020?
Click to expand...

No. Who was saying that, Tesla fanboys?
 
Layoff or not, I have been enjoying unparalleled opportunities in my field and tech crossovers thus far, and I will keep growing and learning in that direction.

I can't wait to start J3 next year...600k total comp in a global recession will set me up for financial success, all thanks to tech 🤣
 
DagS132 said:
Remember when people were convinced self driving trucks were going to replace all truck drivers by 2020?
Click to expand...

remember when...........
Hey, I clearly recall, being told personally, that Pharmacist would soon be replaced by software, automation and robots!
................................................................................Back in 1982, while applying for pharmacy school admission.😱😊😱
 
RXDOC1986 said:
remember when...........
Hey, I clearly recall, being told personally, that Pharmacist would soon be replaced by software, automation and robots!
................................................................................Back in 1982, while applying for pharmacy school admission.😱😊😱
Click to expand...
Yea I wouldn't trust any sort of technology news when it comes to AI. I think I read somewhere that we would be going into the next stage of AI(robots that can mimic human behavior and decision making) within the next 10 years. I will start worrying about this when they start getting more common every day tasks down. However there is an AI arm that is showing great results in surgery.
I just hope we don't have a Terminator/IRobot apocalypse in the future where robots find out all problems are solved if no humans exist
 
Former Hospital installed a McKesson Dispensing Robot. Had to build a 12ft X 12ft room with extra cooling, the Robot was $1 million, it actually created 4FTE's extra jobs. 1 tech/1 R.Ph 7on/7off to tend to it. Every oral med had to be repackaged with hook to go on the pegs, AND if you were caught inside when the robot arm was spinning, it would likely decapitate you (workman's comp?) It was often out of service, but when it worked, it was magnificent! Cart fill for 300 inpatients was accomplished in 60-65 min all-in!
Now ask me about the IV compounder Robot...................................................
 
Tech employees are still finding jobs just fine. They just might have to work in an office 3-5 days per week instead of at home for 20 hours a week.

Still far better than the average retail or even hospital pharmacist.
 
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