Masters or IMG

[deleted92121]

Finally graduated. Only took me 10 years but hey, it's done and over. 28 years old and my first degree is a BS in Natural Science from Pitt.

So I was doing some calculations and turns out I need some way to boost my GPA.
Currently I am at a cGPA of 2.6 with a multitude of retakes. My sGPA is 3.0-3.1 My last MCAT was a 27 and I am retaking in June.

Now there are some courses I cannot retake according to Pitt because I have already graduated and it would affect my degree. And some of these classes are unique to Pitt (EMS courses). So I am stuck with what I have. Where do I go from here?

I can apply to SGU/Ross, both of which have programs like a post-bacc that last one semester and lead right into their MD programs. I was told my admission counselor I am a safe bet for one of those programs. Or I can do a MS in Health Sciences/Communication from a program here in the states. If I can do mostly A work, I could easily get my cGPA up to a 2.8-2.9. Granted these are not science courses but it is really my cGPA that needs the bump more than anything.

Thoughts?

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[BestDoctorEver]

Finally graduated. Only took me 10 years but hey, it's done and over. 28 years old and my first degree is a BS in Natural Science from Pitt.

So I was doing some calculations and turns out I need some way to boost my GPA.
Currently I am at a cGPA of 2.6 with a multitude of retakes. My sGPA is 3.0-3.1 My last MCAT was a 27 and I am retaking in June.

Now there are some courses I cannot retake according to Pitt because I have already graduated and it would affect my degree. And some of these classes are unique to Pitt (EMS courses). So I am stuck with what I have. Where do I go from here?

I can apply to SGU/Ross, both of which have programs like a post-bacc that last one semester and lead right into their MD programs. I was told my admission counselor I am a safe bet for one of those programs. Or I can do a MS in Health Sciences/Communication from a program here in the states. If I can do mostly A work, I could easily get my cGPA up to a 2.8-2.9. Granted these are not science courses but it is really my cGPA that needs the bump more than anything.

Thoughts?

Retake a few classes until you can bring your GPAs to 3.2+ and apply DO. Your 27 MCAT score is good for DO.

 

[deleted92121]

Retake a few classes until you can bring your GPAs to 3.2+ and apply DO. Your 27 MCAT score is good for DO.

Based on my calculations, it will probably take me about three-four semesters. Or through next summer I am guessing.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Based on my calculations, it will probably take me about three-four semesters. Or through next summer I am guessing.

3-4 semesters--not too bad.

 

[deleted92121]

3-4 semesters--not too bad.

Okay, so retake courses AND the masters. My plan is retake Chem 1&2, Physics 1&2. If I can get As in those courses and an A average in the Masters, that takes me to a 2.9 cGPA. That along with my 10+ years in EMS and Level II trauma center may get my foot in the door if I apply early and broadly to DO programs, no?

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Okay, so retake courses AND the masters. My plan is retake Chem 1&2, Physics 1&2. If I can get As in those courses and an A average in the Masters, that takes me to a 2.9 cGPA. That along with my 10+ years in EMS and Level II trauma center may get my foot in the door if I apply early and broadly to DO programs, no?

I don't think you need a master, but it is up to you if you feel like you need it...

 

[deleted92121]

I don't think you need a master, but it is up to you if you feel like you need it...

The major bump in GPA comes from the Masters and the retakes. Retakes alone only pull my cGPA up to a 2.75ish

 

[BestDoctorEver]

The major bump in GPA comes from the Masters and the retakes. Retakes alone only pull my cGPA up to a 2.75ish

Ok... I see.. GL

 

[deleted92121]

Ok... I see.. GL

Thanks taking time to reply. Appreciate it.

 

[deleted92121]

To clarify, UG GPA will be calculated SEPARATELY from Grad GPA. Your master in Health Care will not be viewed as tremendously helpful towards UG GPA improvements

It was my understanding that osteopathic schools calculate both UG and Grad together.

 

[deleted92121]

Thank you. Makes more sense now.

So out of curiosity, I am assuming you would recommend retakes and maybe a SMP or Post-Bacc?

 

[deleted92121]

The retakes on EMS are hard and if you had lots of retakes, even though the last grade is for GPA, schools will know you retook a course

A DIY postbacc with core science may be enough, an SMP, if you can get in and afford it may be better.

Now I am gonna bet that your GPA you told us is what is on your transcript. Go calculate according to AACOMAS and see where it actually is

GPA according to the AACOMAS worksheet is . . .
cGPA: 2.653
sGPA: 2.82

After some plugging in retakes (total of 14 for grades C and lower) and earning an A in all classes, I get the following:
cGPA: 3.001
sciGPA: 3.174

From what I have read, that puts me at the lower end of all DO applicants.

 

[Goro]

It will be far quickerfor you to simply take your money and flush it down the toilet. You can do better than Carib diploma mills.

Retake all F/D/C science coursework and apply to DO schools


OR do a post-bac or better yet, a SMP , preferably one given by a medical school. You MUST get your GPA >3.0 or you're likley to be autorejected.

Your admissions counselor is a *****. IMGs have a difficult time getting into even a crappy residency, and it's only going to get harder with the ACGME/AACOMA merger.


I suggest that you fix wheatver deficits you had that caused you to do so poorly at Pitt.


I can apply to SGU/Ross, both of which have programs like a post-bacc that last one semester and lead right into their MD programs. I was told my admission counselor I am a safe bet for one of those programs. Or I can do a MS in Health Sciences/Communication from a program here in the states. If I can do mostly A work, I could easily get my cGPA up to a 2.8-2.9. Granted these are not science courses but it is really my cGPA that needs the bump more than anything.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

 

[deleted92121]

It will be far quickerfor you to simply take your money and flush it down the toilet. You can do better than Carib diploma mills.

Retake all F/D/C science coursework and apply to DO schools


OR do a post-bac or better yet, a SMP , preferably one given by a medical school. You MUST get your GPA >3.0 or you're likley to be autorejected.

Your admissions counselor is a *****. IMGs have a difficult time getting into even a crappy residency, and it's only going to get harder with the ACGME/AACOMA merger.


I suggest that you fix wheatver deficits you had that caused you to do so poorly at Pitt.


I can apply to SGU/Ross, both of which have programs like a post-bacc that last one semester and lead right into their MD programs. I was told my admission counselor I am a safe bet for one of those programs. Or I can do a MS in Health Sciences/Communication from a program here in the states. If I can do mostly A work, I could easily get my cGPA up to a 2.8-2.9. Granted these are not science courses but it is really my cGPA that needs the bump more than anything.

Thoughts?

[/QUOTE]

It's amazing how stupid I was. There were a few times I actually had real issues (family, work, etc).

Truth is though, I overestimated myself and sure as hell didn't put the time or effort in. Thought I could skate on by. But I did seek out evaluation for LD (ADHD, Dyslexia). Had so much trouble concentrating, finishing things I started, easily bored. I thought it was just my personality or who I was. Testing said ADHD and Dyslexia. Learned some different techniques and got into routines. Really seemed to help. Medications made me feel off so I stopped those.

Point is, the whole thing for me has been a learning process with a steep curve. I'm finally to a spot where I am doing decent and not mucking things up on a regular basis.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Okay, so retake courses AND the masters. My plan is retake Chem 1&2, Physics 1&2. If I can get As in those courses and an A average in the Masters, that takes me to a 2.9 cGPA. That along with my 10+ years in EMS and Level II trauma center may get my foot in the door if I apply early and broadly to DO programs, no?

That sounds like a good plan... If you can get the GPA to 3.0+, I think you will stand a decent shot with your 27 MCAT.

 

[advair250]

Going to the Caribbean should never be entertained as an option. I wish there would be some kind of PSA from the Obama administration to prevent the catastrophic fail that is going to the Caribbean for medical school. Part of the student loan bubble comes from funding Caribbean dreams.

I speak as someone whose husband is still trying to get a residency after doing above average at SGU. He is a Canadian but is now a PR, and still, it seems to make no difference. The stigma is unreal as he tries to pick up the pieces. Nobody wanted to give him a chance, but luckily we found a program after 3 years that is showing some interest. So he might still be a Dr in the end, but not without an insane amount of expense and hassle. We've moved all over the world trying to chase this dream. And we're not the only ones facing this BS first hand. There are waiters with an MD in NYC right now.

I'm just n=1, but stories like this are not difficult to find if you look.

OP, if it takes 10 years, just do the retakes. Hyperbole, yes, but the point still stands. Even if it takes ten years.

Carribean is certainly not the best option, and in this case you can do retakes and head DO.

Victoriah sorry for your husbands situation, but he really shouldn't have been aiming for a Anesthesia residency. In a previous post you said:

"He is an average applicant with a step failure, but the second try was in the 210-220 range. No criminal history, recent grad from SGU and good LoRs. We are quite baffled as to what has gone wrong since he only got 2 unsolicited interviews last year, and another 2 which he simply asked for from hospitals he worked at previously. I read somewhere that 50 percent of SGU grads fail to match but I do not know how that was calculated. "

Sorry, but there are so many things wrong with the way you paint the Carribean on the forums, while i 100% agree it should not be a first option, until you try all other options, but it does work for a lot of driven people. Your husband failed step 1 so he is nowhere near an average applicant, why would you have been baffled as to why he only got so little interviews, especially after his second attempt was very lackluster, especially by offshore standards(you need to be better than the average, not below) and it being a second attempt?

Also the 50% statistic is flat out wrong.

So yes, there are plenty of people who don't make it, but always need to look at what their aiming for (seeing the EM, Derm, Pediatrics gunners on RUSOM- Canadian page makes me worry that some of the med students that end up in the carribean don't have common sense to settle for spots that are more available).

I truly hope he gets into a DO school, pushes through the other 4 years and you two can move on with your life and have all the stress be over. Just felt necessary to provide a bit of a critical eye, since I always see your posts on the forums about the dangers of the carribean, without actually acknowledging that your husband wasn't the typical carribean grad that did above and beyond to match. Therefore he didn't match.

OP don't go to the carrib, until you've exhausted all other options. Even then, be very weary and realistic that you won't be the top of the class or even above average in order to make it back.

 

[deleted92121]

Thanks for all the advice.

Okay so I am not applying Carib. I can appreciate the reasons why and if I don't get into medical school on two attempts, I will reconsider my career path.

So I did a little bit of working out my plan. I registered for five courses to retake today in the fall. Two more in the spring.

Additionally, I will be applying to two certificate program via the Univ. of Florida. Total credits are 27. All of them are in Physiology, Anatomy, etc. I realize I may get some kick back for it being an online program but my GPA is too low for many brick and mortar programs. I'm thinking if I do well it can only help. Even if I have a marginal overall GPA of 2.9-3.1, a higher sciGPA and decent MCAT could offset some of the issues.

 

[deleted92121]

Dont make it so absolute, off shore supplies some 6000 docs a year to the US. But understand the increase risks. And alot more is up to you to do well

I think what makes me hesitate with the Carib is being average, or even top of class, and not even having the opportunity to match into a residency that I want. Ten years I have been in EMS and three years in a Level II trauma center that I was privileged enough to help develop protocols, trauma bays, etc for. EM is my plan. I've been around so many specialists and generalists to know what their practice looks like from a general perspective. I don't want to be forced into FM or IM. I hope that is a decent reason.

 

[advair250]

Yes, understand the risks and know your options. Lots of offshore grads still make it, and arguable if you cut out all the people that shouldn't be there in the first place, the odds aren't as bad as they make it seem.

 

[deleted92121]

Yes, understand the risks and know your options. Lots of offshore grads still make it, and arguable if you cut out all the people that shouldn't be there in the first place, the odds aren't as bad as they make it seem.

Maybe it is the SDN way, but the general view of going Carib is not a positive one. Very chicken little.

 

[advair250]

Because of the risks, there are too many people on here that could barely make it into DO schools even, yet they think they will be average or above average medical students in teh carrib. Like the poster above, failing step 1, retaking for a low score, and then wondering why no one wants to take them, when there are many carrib grads with solid step 1 scores first try, ready to take residencies anywhere.

 

[deleted92121]

Def reassuring in that case, should DO school not work out.

 

[Mad Jack]

I think what makes me hesitate with the Carib is being average, or even top of class, and not even having the opportunity to match into a residency that I want. Ten years I have been in EMS and three years in a Level II trauma center that I was privileged enough to help develop protocols, trauma bays, etc for. EM is my plan. I've been around so many specialists and generalists to know what their practice looks like from a general perspective. I don't want to be forced into FM or IM. I hope that is a decent reason.

EM is becoming quite competitive- not only will you need to get into a US school, you'll need to be somewhere in the middle of the pack to get a spot at the moment. If you have your doubts about being able to do well in the Carib, what makes you believe you will do above average in a US medical school?

I only say this because it is entirely likely you will not match EM, so that is something to think about before you take on 300k+ of debt.

 

[deleted92121]

That is somewhat reassuring should I get to that point. Still, going to try for a US

EM is becoming quite competitive- not only will you need to get into a US school, you'll need to be somewhere in the middle of the pack to get a spot at the moment. If you have your doubts about being able to do well in the Carib, what makes you believe you will do above average in a US medical school?

I only say this because it is entirely likely you will not match EM, so that is something to think about before you take on 300k+ of debt.

I didn't say I have doubts about me being middle of the pack to top of the class. I said I'm worried about matching EM even when I am in the middle of the class or above, which I know I can be.

 

[UTsksk]

All you can do now is get those retakes going and work on having a great upward trend in grades. I was in a similar position as you and had a 2.4ish gpa by my junior year. 120ish hours later (undergrad and grad) I got it to a 3.4. It's hard work but if you know how what you need to do, the grades will come. Good luck.

 

[advair250]

My husband was applying as a Canadian so the statistics are correct. IMG without US citizenship is actually around a 40% match rate. Take a look at the NRMP matching outcomes PDF.

He also tried for Family Medicine on his second and third try with excellent evaluations. But then it was too late, I suppose.

Although I still do not subscribe to the 'Just World' hypothesis, he is deserving and finally getting somewhere! I'll update later when I know more.

I also want to add that we know another student who didn't match. He is also an intelligent, hard-working person. He doesn't look like a weirdo or act like one. You would never know what he is been through just looking at him talk to people. The fact is, there is a lot of competition at the residency level. You know the saying it's harder to get out of medical school than into it? That's true. Well with more DO schools opening and letting in people with 22 MCAT, I am afraid of the fallout.

Part of the reason students are willing to go to any school is this unbelievably naive notion that they have 'made it' once they get accepted. Fine, but when you are part of the percentage that doesn't make it, it ruins your life. Financially and in some ways, spiritually.

People should know the risks and not only in the form of numbers and statistics. To drive home this point: a 1% chance of dying is worse than a 1% chance of catching the common cold, even if the probability equation would look the same. Correct me if my logic is faulty. People should see what the experience is like if they don't make it and that is why I share my story repeatedly. Then they know if going to the Caribbean is a 1% chance of a catastrophe or a 1% chance of a minor setback, akin to the common cold. That's up to them.

Furthermore, I really resent people apologizing for his situation and then turning around and telling him he basically deserves what happened to him. That makes bouncing back and moving on much more difficult because almost nobody wants to give him a shot. This is only an internet forum but unfortunately, program directors think the same way as the user advair. This happens to a lot of people in his situation and it's a fact of life to laud the successful and be skeptical of a less-than-great-but-good-enough history. So, living this reality has made me a more compassionate and forgiving person. I am thankful for our trying experiences. But I can't help anyone salvage their career unless I become a program director, adcom or avid reference-letter-writer in 20 years. For now, I spout drivel on the internet as a premed. Well, we won't give up. At the very least he'll be an amazing dad and a great professor.

I'm glad the OP is not considering the Caribbean at this time, but for posterity: know yourself and ask, What Would Warren Buffet Do?

I was apologetic for being realistic and providing a frank post, since it is clear through your posts that you still don't recognize that your husband was just a poor applicant.

And yes the people should know the risks, but your husbands story is not the correct one to provide the picture.

You say "less-than-great-but-good-enough" - failing step 1, and then getting a mediocre score the second time, is not less than great, it is very poor.

Again, I feel bad for your families situation, but playing victim in a situation where it is clear the applicant had major red flags doesn't really prove many of the points you make.

The people with solid step scores and no red flags, are the ones who truly prove the risks of going to the carribean and not matching despite being good applicants. Your husbands scores, although they may not be fully reflective of how great of a clinician he may be, are a big part of how residencies choose applicants. He knew that, as does everyone else in the carribean. He didn't have the luxury of failing step 1, and then scoring low. (Even USMD and DO's don't have that luxury, but get the leeway due to the culture of things to an extent).

On top of that, having the audacity to apply to a competitive specialty with a failed step 1, and then a low step 1 pass score, was his death knell. If you were a program director would you want to interview someone, who had seemingly no common sense? Remember, the program directors don't know your husband other than on paper. They don't know that he could be an amazing person and the next ghandi or mother teresa. Hindsight is 20/20 and common sense is not so common ; he should have applied FM in the very first place, and the risk he took and the result is NOT reflective of the risk at hand for carribean applicants that actually have strong applications and STILL don't match.

In fact, i'm sure those strong applicants who still don't match, are the ones who resent posts like this, blaming the caribs that give the student the opportunity to prove themselves, but didn't - being lumped in with them, the ones who actually did prove themselves, but still got their lives ruined by not matching.

I hope you see where I am coming from, and sorry if it is too frank and harsh, but had to be said. I know a ross grad who had a 220-230 step who didn't match FM last year, and then matched this year. He did everything right, and still didn't match the first time. Forgive me for not seeing how your husbands situation is nowhere near the situation of other carib grads.

 

[advair250]

Last resort yes, but still a functionally good option for many.

 

[deleted92121]

There is no consensus on going Caribbean.

I could read every post on here, other sites, and even make a poll.

So my opinion has become that one good shot at an American DO schools and throw in an app to SGU. Whichever one I get into, I goto. Ross maybe but SGU is the safest bet of the bunch it seems. Not putting down Ross, AUC, or Saba but it does seem like SGU is the best of the group.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I hope you see where I am coming from, and sorry if it is too frank and harsh, but had to be said. I know a ross grad who had a 220-230 step who didn't match FM last year, and then matched this year. He did everything right, and still didn't match the first time. Forgive me for not seeing how your husbands situation is nowhere near the situation of other carib grads.

220-230 in step and did not match family medicine? Wow! Things are getting rough for Carib students... The average step 1 for FM is just little over 200 (I think it is 206)... Was it on this person first attempt?

 

[WesternRedCedar]

220-230 in step and did not match family medicine? Wow! Things are getting rough for Carib students... The average step 1 for FM is just little over 200 (I think it is 206)... Was it on this person first attempt?

They didn't apply too broadly probably? I've been reading more about Canadians since they are showing up alot on SDNSDN