Hey! Add Michigan in there...
Master's Programs - do they help get you in?
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Hey! Add Michigan in there...
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See, this may be a case of the randomness of the medical school application process. At my school absolutely no preference is shown between MS and MPH. In fact, the advice I was given was specifically to go for the MPH as many of the faculty there were MDs with joint appointments to the medical school faculty (thus some of my strongest LORs). I stand by my comments, but I think there may be a communications gap here. First, there is no question, at least as far as our adcom is concerned, that any full masters is peferential to one of the "post-bac"/masters combos. As the director of our adcom put it - "if the master's program contains only medical school applicants, then it is a post-bac program not a masters". We awarded any "points" accordingly. Now, if you are trying for a specific school that offers admission upon completion - hey, do what you've gotta do. Second, if your MS got you a job - great! That was my main point. At some point, reapplicants have to begin to align their efforts at admission with preparation for life outside of medical school. If you don't get in then a masters in a field you don't care to work in is worthless. Lastly, there were no easy As in my MPH program, nor were there a predominence of medical school applicants. In fact, there were more practing physicians and residents than there were applicants in the program. The statement that post-bac programs were designed because all re-applicants were getting MPH degrees is bovine scatology. They were designed, as any other business, because there was money to be made by filling a need.
A question, how do Harvard, Hopkins, UPenn, and Duke feel about single year combo post-bac / master's programs designed specifically for medical school admission? As I have said, my adcom doesn't take them well.
I also disagree with your supposition that an MPH should only be obtained in Epidemiology and at a top school like Yale, Harvard, or UNC-Chapel Hill. Occupational Medicine residents are required to complete MPH degrees in occupational medicine, leaving that an optimal choice as well. International health is another area of Medicine / PH crossover. And while you have list some good schools, I would suggest any institution where there is a close relationship between the school of public health and the college of medicine would be a good place to study.
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Really, so my 2.8 undergrad (2.7 science), followed by an MPH got me into school how again?
I still think, all things considered the degree are equal in the eyes of most schools. While there may be exceptions, I think an MPH works to bring a non-competitive student "back into the fold" and thus subject to the randomness of the medical school admissions process.
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Congratulations! Since, most MPH classes are non-science, that means you probably got into medical school with a sub-3.0 science GPA? I think we need to know a little more about you to make any conclusions from this (ie URM, MCAT, what medical school, etc...). Either way, I agree with the prior poster that it depends on the applicant. Since you got in somewhere, it's no big deal that you went MPH, but I would have probably done a MS if I were in your shoes (given the info you put above). Unfortunately, not many people get into a US allopathic medical school with a sub-3.0 science GPA. 
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FoughtFyr said:
What concentration did you do your MPH in?
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Do you think it helps if you explain your reasons for choosing MPH over a MS in your personal statement?
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I'm a Florida Alumnae and a URM and ALL of the Florida MD schools wanted me to have above a 3.0 undergrad years ago when I was considering going back to Florida.gujuDoc said:
So allow me to corect the assumption that if a person were a URM and applied to a Florida school they would have a shot at admissions with a 2.8 GPA, because they wouldn't as far as I know. As a matter of fact, the office of admissions didn't want to talk to me until I completed the MS, so I can also vouch for the fact that UF sees the MS quite "differently" than the MPH.
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Almost all of this info is on my profile. I am a cauc. male. I have a 2.8 undergrad GPA with my degree in Community Health from the University of Illinois at Urbana (The degree is with honors - I transferred in late). I worked full-time as a firefighter/paramedic throughout school. I have an MPH in Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences from the University of Illinois at Chicago. I finished my pre-reqs there during my first year and I continued to work as a firefighter/paramedic and EMS instructor. My second year I was placed on full academic scholarship. I took my MCAT and scored a 30 (11, 9, 10). I applied to medical school (21 schools) with little sucess (1 waitlist). I also did EMS research leading to a "best clinical paper" award at the World Congress on Trauma. After my MPH, I got a job for a municipal consulting firm, and was tasked 1/2 time to the Major Incidents Investigation Team of the U.S. Fire Admin. (solely based on my MPH). I also reapplied to medical school, in a controlled fashion (3 applications). I was accepted to the University of Illinois at Chicago and will graduate in two weeks with my MD. Many of my classmates hold MPH degrees or will achieve them this year from the MD/MPH program. My strongest letters of rec. were from faculty holding joint appointments to the School of Public Health and the College of Medicine. After obtaining my MPH, I felt as though my admission was assured, and it was.
I am a living example of the adage "there is always a way." I have one "D" (unfairly awarded IMHO) on my undergrad transcript, an unimpressive GPA, and a passable MCAT, but I am graduating from my #1 choice medical school. I based my application (both to residency and medical school) on demonstrating that while I may not be the smartest applicant, I am the hardest working. That worked for me (twice!). As it was later described to me when I was on the adcom, my MPH "gave them the excuse" to admit me despite my grades. An MS would not have led me to the career I had begun after grad school (one I could still be happily employed at if I did not get in), and a post-bacc program would have been even less helpful. I am happy with all of the choices I have made, and if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't change a thing.
Good luck to everyone! Pm me if there is anything I can do to help.
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I am a living example of the adage "there is always a way." I have one "D" (unfairly awarded IMHO) on my undergrad transcript, an unimpressive GPA, and a passable MCAT, but I am graduating from my #1 choice medical school. I based my application (both to residency and medical school) on demonstrating that while I may not be the smartest applicant, I am the hardest working. That worked for me (twice!). As it was later described to me when I was on the adcom, my MPH "gave them the excuse" to admit me despite my grades. An MS would not have led me to the career I had begun after grad school (one I could still be happily employed at if I did not get in), and a post-bacc program would have been even less helpful. I am happy with all of the choices I have made, and if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't change a thing.
Good luck to everyone! Pm me if there is anything I can do to help.
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gujuDoc said:
My MPH (Environmental and Occupational Health) included a TON of science courses, including chemistry, physics, and bio. Under the AAMC rules, more than half of my grad classes went toward my science GPA. And I rocked my MPH (note the full academic ride). I am not saying this was easy. What I was defending, virously, is the perception by some posters that an MPH is somehow "less than" an MS or post-bac program. It isn't, or may not be. It depends on the emphasis of study, the courses taken and the strength of the program. My overall science GPA ended above a 3.0, and actually, if you excluded the first 2.5 years of undergrad, it was closer to a 3.8. (I started out in Nursing at a program where As were tough to come by.)
I am not saying everyone can follow exactly in my footsteps. You are right, there are different rules in different areas. But to suggest, as many posters here have, that any MS is absolutely superior to any MPH for medical school admissions is pure bovine scatology. And I am living prooof of that.
BTW - if you need to improve your science GPA and are looking for a degree that is respected in industry as well as by adcoms, I highly suggest you look at the UIC SPH MPH program in Environmental and Occupational Health. It was great.
http://www.uic.edu/sph/eohs.htm
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This thread just goes to show how special nontrads are. We can all agree to disagree!!!!!
Congrads Foughtfyr and good luck GujuDoc!!!
PS- Foughtfyr, that application of yours was pretty tight.
Congrads Foughtfyr and good luck GujuDoc!!!
PS- Foughtfyr, that application of yours was pretty tight.
MPH programs vary widely in reputation and quality, so it would be unfair to use a broad brush to categorize them as "springboard" programs that arent as useful as "hard science" MS program. I think it really depends on your background, your application, and your goals as to what program fits you best. For some is it an MPH, for others, an MS. You have to review your app and and figure out which will improve you the most.
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pathdr2b said:This thread just goes to show how special nontrads are. We can all agree to disagree!!!!!
Congrads Foughtfyr and good luck GujuDoc!!!
PS- Foughtfyr, that application of yours was pretty tight.
Nontrads are indeed special. But it is ignorant to think that there is only one route (eg MS or MPH). Weigh your options, and do whatever is best for you. Who cares if so and so was able to get in with an MPH despite a low GPA. Just because he got in, who's to say that you will. Be special in your own way.
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premed said:
First, no one said there was any one way to do ANYTHING. I simply stated the facts as I KNOW THEM and they are that no one I know with an MS has had a problem EVENTUALLY getting into medical school.
Second, I WAS accepted years back into an MD/PhD program so yeah, I'd say I can get in at least once. Hopefully, history will repeat itself this year but if not, I'll get the PhD in Pathology at Hopkins or some other top school then try again or try to transfer from the PhD program.
Finally, you're right EVERYONE is special in their own way!!
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FoughtFyr said:
I'm a postbac student that got into 7 medical schools this Spring which included 3 allopathic schools and 4 osteopathic schools. I also scored well enough on the MCAT to become a private MCAT tutor who is not only writing a book on MCAT review but currently commands $60 per hour tutoring. I chose the postbac over the MPH for a couple of reasons. I needed to raise my overall and science undergrad GPA. Most medical schools have cutoffs of 3.0 > to apply. This cutoff counts whether you have a high MS or MPH gpa. One adcom jokingly stated that he had never seen a candidate have less than a 3.8 GPA in his MPH. I'm not suggesting we can conclude with any certainty wherther the MPH is good or bad. There are going to be candidates that were successfull and unsucessfull as MPH candidates. IMHO, I just got the impression that adcoms think the MPH is a rather easy degree. If I was going to do it all over again, I would enroll in the program that most resembled an MS 1 class load and the MPH is a far cry from that. You know that and I know that. Your emphasis is on public health not medicine. If you are trying to comensate for a low undergrad GPA, I still think its better to take many classes and do overload in an MS or a postbac.
One note of interest: If you read Foughtfire's post carefully, you will notice that Foughtfire got REJECTEDafter a year of MPH classes even with a 30 MCAT. Wow, he sure made a case for the MPH. I don't know of very many one year MS/postbac applicants who get rejected after a completing just a year of work.
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daelroy said:
Actually, I do. I know of many one year MS students who didn't get in, including my brother-in-law, who is now a chiropractor {shudder}. Outside of my family, I have seen hundreds not admitted here. One year programs cannot raise your overall GPA that much, especially if you have more than 120 hours in undergrad (I had nearly 170 after changing majors).
If you also read my post carefully you will see that my school, like most, does not award full "credit" for completeing any post-bac work until that program is completed. Therefore, I only got "credit" for my MPH (beyond the GPA bump) after it was done. After working on the adcom (not just "talking to someone") I know that the "credit" given for completing any master's is more than is given for completion of a post-bac.
daelroy said:
Now, if you look over the entire thread, my point was that, in my experience, and according to the adcom here (remember, I've been "peeking around the curtain" for the past three years), there is no difference in the way MPH degrees are considered vs. MS, MA, MBA, MPP etc. Each is awarded a certain number of "points", in addition to the (likely) GPA bump they provided. Much like undergrad, the adcom has no means to, nor do they care to try, to differentiate between accredited masters programs in any course of study. This argument is plain silly; when you get to medical school, try and serve on the adcom. You will see how so many details are "glossed over" in the interest of time. With thousands of apps to consider, the rules are written to allow quick, concise rating. Therefore MPH=MS from that standpoint.
Your post is interesting because you make the same point as I do here on another thread, extolling the virtues of community college vs. university:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=1399260#post1399260
BTW, you are right, there is no difference. Similarly there is no difference between an MPH and any other masters degree. Graduate work is graduate work in the eyes on an adcom. Post bac is post bac and that is a horse of a different color. The "graduate school" points are not given for completeing a post-bac.
Your situation doesn't fit into the original discussion. With your "stellar" MCAT, you were going to be admitted after raising your GPA. For you, post-bac was the way to go, absolutely. Raise the GPA to the cutoff as quick as possible. But that was not my point. In my opinion, for those not as clearly situated as you, and since MPH does equal MS in terms of admission, an MPH may represent a more enjoyable "fall back" if they do not gain admission. Working in public health allows many of the benefits of a career in medicine (if you don't get in) and the MPH is good training if you do gain admission.
BTW - Has your post bac given you any training that will improve your career? Because my MPH has. Almost every residency program I applied to this year commented on it positvely. My close friend who did a post-bac program was advised not to bring it up at residency interviews.
- H
daelroy said:
I got a 3.7 in my MPH program and got 19 allopathic interviews. Hmm... 3.8? i dont think so. There is such variability between MPH programs that it is asolutely unfair to say they are all "easy". I got all A's in my non concentration classes b/c my concentration was infectious disease, which happens to be much harder than say, nutrition. In fact the large real science courseload in my concentration probably helped me in my apps.
I applied after i finished my MPH, that certainly helps since you have both the degree and two years of coursework.
As with any program, caveat emptor. You can do a post bacc MS program and not get in med school as well and have useless degree. At least a MPH is worth something in the non-medical field. I know plenty of people that get rejected after postbacc MS programs. The Georgetown SMP only matriculates 60% after yr 1 and maybe 80% year 2 and tahts including offshore and DO programs, and that program has the highest success rate.
I thing what is going on here is chest beating and arm waving about each persons own program being the best. Lets not confuse the issue here. The best program is different for each person, so 1) Stop putting down the program that you DIDNT do, and 2) lets give good information so the applicant can make an informed decision on what is best for him/her
Dont knock the MPH until you try it. It works.
edit: you also say how public health focuses on public health, not medicine. you're missing the big picture if you don't see how the two are inextricably tied together. in fact, almost every adcom mentioned how great it was to have a MPH going into medical school.
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exmike said:
Well said as usual.
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Sometimes I wonder if I should have finsihed my MPH (which I could have done in about a year) instead of starting a fellowship/work on a PhD which I don't plan to finish until whenever. Now imagine that, the best of both worlds while reapplying to med school, an MS AND an MPH!!
Now can we all agree that the answer to the OP's original question is that yes, Master's degree's do help people get into medical school?
Now can we all agree that the answer to the OP's original question is that yes, Master's degree's do help people get into medical school?
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I have a question for everyone. Is it better to apply after you actually have the MPH degree or is it okay to apply after a year of classes. I am currently taking an overload (18 hours) and I did the same last semester. So, after May 19th I will only have 2 classes left in my MPH (Environmental Health and my Practicum project). However, due to a University mistake in processing my degree application, I cannot graduate (i.e. receive my MPH degree) until December 2004. But I will be complete with all degree requirements as of August 13th. Does this hurt me at all? I was thinking about sending an update to the schools in August and explaining the situation. Any advice?
Cheers.
Cheers.
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kmjannie said:
Apply now. Send an update letter when the degree is achieved. Make sure you include (whenever possible in secondaries) that the corsework is complete as of August. Most places will give you credit once the coursework is complete.
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exmike said:
An MS degrees afford one better research opportunities since their coursework is more rigorous and concentrated in science. MPH degrees offer you opportunities in public health because it is a more specialized field. And none of the MPH jobs that were available impressed me. Even the Centers for Disease Control prefer MS in chemistry or biochemistry over MPH grads because they are flooded with field workers. They are seeking researchers so for all intensive purpose the MPH is a useless degree unless you enjoy working for some wild life refuge examining e-coli in the water. Whooa a 3.7 is much less than a 3.8. Yeah, you sure made your point. You are still missing the point by a mile and you refuse to acknowledge anyone's else point on this issue simply because you got the MPH. If you are trying to compensate for a low GPA, you should puruse an MS or post-bacc. If you are someone who has a strong GPA but a weak MCAT, the MPH is probably the better degree. The MPH degree 9 times out of 10 does not involve the same level of rigor as an MS or posbac. That is a fact. Compare any MPH curriculum with any hard science MS or postbac and the MPH curriculum is far easier. That is why most adcoms do not advise pursuing an MPH if one is trying to rectify a weak academic record. A postbac may be a useless degree but then again I didn't need to complete two years in one before I got accepted. Most of my friends only need a year of postbac to get in. I think that had a lot to do with the fact that adcoms recognized our class schedule and was impressed by how rigourous it was. Postbac kicks you ass. I had 23 credits in one quarter of all upper level biology courses. I didn't have ean useless MPH classes to infllate my GPA. I think adcoms were impressed by that. Most people in postbac don't complete it with the expectation that we won't get in. And I question your 60% success rate at Georgetown and citing that as the most successfull postbac in existance. My program easily exceed that rate.
Let's not make the MPH more or less than what it is. I know you are proud of your MPH and you want to suggest that your curriculum was rigorous. If you have a high GPA and just need to do something while you are trying to raise your MCAT, go for the MPH. It's easier; you can party. You will have a better time. If you are trying to compensate for a low GPA, pursue a more challenging postbac or an MS. There is no need to embellish the truth by suggesting that MPH degrees offer the same level of difficulty as an MS or postbac. You know that's not true; we know that's not true; most importantly ADCOMS know that's not true. Just be honest and leave it at that. Trying to convince any of us that the MPH was a rigorous and challenging academic program is waste of time.
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FoughtFyr said:
I know enough rejected MPH applicants that programs like postbac were introduced to offer a curriculum tht would provide students an opportunity to demonstrate they could handle a rigorous courseload since MPH's were known for being easy. Not all postbac serve to provide just the prereqs. Many of them were created to allow students to compensate for low GPA's. Most adcoms became skeptical of MPH degrees. Every year, they saw students with 2.8's get 3.8's in their MPH. Second and Third time MPH candidates are a dime a dozen. After while, adcoms caught on and realized MPH degrees were easy. Students could complete projects at their own pace and if they were on good terms with their professors, they got A's. Their classes were usually smaller and didn't have that gunner environment that postbacs have. I spoke to an adcom about this and she said that postbac puts students more on an equal scale than an MPH. She said that just like the MCAT compares students accross the board, she noted that postbac classes put students in the same classes as many gunner pre-meds. They know the competition in that environment is far more competitive than the benign MPH environment. Every adcom I spoke emitted this same sentiment. Again, this is an adcom I spoke with. You aren't the only who spoke with them.
What? You don't get grades? You don't have a transcript from the work you completed? You are telling everyone here that you could only get credit for classes after you compled your MPH 2 years later? You couldn't even get a transcript for the work you completed in any manner. You couldn't send AMCAS any proof of courswork in your MPH until you graduated a year later? I'm calling bs on that one. And even if this is true, don't you think your MPH handcuffed you by preventing you from claiming credit untl after you completed your program. You had no choice but to waste two years.
My postbac has prepared me for medical school far better than your MPH did. Do you think your MPH environment was as competitive as my gunner pre-med postbac environment? Did you take one quarter of 23 credits of all upper level science classes that were exam based? Which environment do you think prepares one for medical school; the one in which you can do projects at your own pace or the one that offers multiple hard science classes simultaneously in a far more competitive environment. Which program provided the better sense of discipline? Which program's students are going to have better stamina when they enter medical school in August. I can assure that no MPH student is a match for our students in any of these areas because we couldn't chill in any of our classes. I would much rather have top medical school grades than weak grades and an MPH. My classmates that were in it last year had a huge advantage in courses like anatomy, histology, pathophysiology, physiology and biochemistry because they essentially had the same classes the year before. Our classes were taught by many of the same instructors at the medical school. That's probably why my classmates are in the top 15% of their class now. We were all used to working really hard in our program which makes the transition to medical school that much easier. Also, I didn't need to complete two years of an MPH. I got in after only a year of postbac. That saved me 55K that year. Not having to waste another year saved me money.
And what about all the candidates that don't have an MPH. You really think your MPH gave you an edge over them if they had better board scores, grades and medically relevant research; probably not. If anything, the MPH will indicate to them that you were a reapplicant. However, many non-science majors with respectable scores enroll in postbac so postbac doesn't always indicate reapplicant like the MPH does because MPH grads were former science majors. They know that you didn't just enroll in an MPH because you loved public health.
I don't care about my job prospects because I didn't plan on working after my postbac. I planned on getting into medical school. My program paid off. I'm going to medical school. I don't need to waste time pursing a field like public health which I'm not interested in. And most resident directors know that MPH = reapplicant. And no resident director at any of the local hospitals which I'm affiliated with cared at all whether you had your MPH. They care about your USMLE step one scores and your medical school grades. Can you honestly say your MPH prepared you better for your basic science classes as well as my postbac or most hard science MS programs; probably not.
Finally, a student in our program matched in dermatology at the University of Tennessee this year. Interestingly enough, this person was the valedictorian of our program and had a 4.0 GPA. Competitive programs like derm ask for undergrad grades and transcripts. When the program saw the valedictorian award and 4.0 GPA in the student's physiology degree, they were impressed particularly since it was the student's most recent grades. And in derm, they could care less about an MPH. I would say a position in the most competitive residency in medicine in the world would speak well of a postbac.
My last point is this. How many MPH schools have an established linkage program with associated medical schools? That's what I thought. There are many postbac and MS programs that have linkage programs with medical schools. This is yet another reason why postbac and a hard science MS should be pursued above the MPH.
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daelroy said:
Really? So my paper on prehospital spinal injury clearance that won "Best Clinical Paper" honors at the World Congress on Trauma was a bad research opporitunity? How about my classmate's on amantidine poisoning? Or on PVC monomer exposure and hepatic angiosarcoma? At my SPH we put up at least five papers to Sigma Xi each year in my division alone. Sometimes the MS departments beat that, but usually not.
My job working with the U.S. Fire Administration doing "after action" reports on litle events like Columbine, or Worchester, MA (six firemen dead) was not "impressive"? How about my classmate who is the director of safety for a large city's mass transit system? Or the one doing particulate matter inhalation research for NIOSH? Maybe the civilian haz mat specialist for the Department of the Navy is more to your liking?
Actually NIOSH offered two annual scholarships at my SPH with a jobs available after graduation but hey, that was just "a fluke" too. Please, don't tell any of my classmates who got their certified industrial hygenist (CIH) accreditation that their job market sucks, I hate watching milk come out of their noses when they laugh hard.
daelroy said:
First of all, that is not a fact. My MPH emphasizing environmental toxicology had more than 20 credit hours of chemistry, 10 credit hours of biostats, and 8 credit hours of media modeling (applying calculus to hygodynamics and environmental convection). Comparing that to my brother-in-law's MS in physiology, and his was harder, who are you kidding. I almost had more coursework added to my BCPM GPA than he took.
But hey, compare for yourself...
http://www.uic.edu/depts/spha/student_handbook/sec5.htm
http://condor.depaul.edu/~biology/grad/courses/physiology.html
But here is the part I don't get. You claim the MPH is "easier", but also claim adcoms advise those seeking to raise their GPA to take the "harder" coursework? That makes no sense. Unless you are claiming that the adcoms remove MPH coursework from the GPA or somehow add GPA points for the MS. Given your posts in other forums I know that you know that is not true, but for others here I will spell it out, as a member of an adcom, the committees have neither the time nor inclination to make those distinctions.
daelroy said:
You were lucky, talented or both. I have seen hundreds that didn't. I think Ex-Mike already posted the "success rate" for post-bacc programs. I didn't like those odds.
daelroy said:
Well, I wasn't at your adcom meeting, but I've heard the oppposite at mine. The feeling on our committee was that one year of good performance in a post-bacc program does not make up for four years of lackluster performance. It was felt, in general, that those pursuing any master's degrees who had the maturity to at least acknowledge that they might not get in and were preparing for life outside of medicine were much better candidates. To "impress" our committee you needed to at least state that the reason you took an MS (or an MPH for that matter) was that you loved the subject you were studying and wished to make a career of it if you didn't get in.
daelroy said:
Lets do the same with a post-bacc.
daelroy said:
Again, this is simply not true and makes no sense. If you are trying to raise your GPA, go where it is harder? - {your opinion, not mine!}
daelroy said:
What adcom did you serve on? BTW - how is it that you think in undergrad adcoms don't care if a grade comes from a community college or a university, but you think they draw distinctions between grades awarded within the same university based on the program of study? (Yep, there were real live MS students in my MPH classes).
You are chest beating. And you failed to answer my previous question. Are you going to "stand proud" and talk up your post-bacc at residency interviews now that you are in school? I know that you will be advised not to. Why? Because you either left in the middle of pursuing a two year hard science MS (calls into question your completing tasks) or you took a specific one year program merely to boost your stats for admission without a graduate degree (calls your medical school admission into question).
And hey, be sure to tell all your attendings your view on the MPH. I'm sure they will agree. Especially those who hold the degree. You know, it's funny. I know that some of our attendings have MS degrees, but they generally don't list that except under formal circumstances. The attendings with the MPH usually do. I guess they are trying to let us know they are party animals!
Much like Ex-Mike, every adcom I interviewed with loved that I had an MPH. So did every residency program.
Good luck in school.
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Not tyring to add more fuel to this "fire" but as the seemily ONLY person here that has completed graduate courses toward an MPH AND an MS in a Science, IMHO the MS was "harder" but not significantly harder than the MPH/Epidemiology courses I've taken at places like UFla, Chapel Hill and Hopkins.
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pathdr2b said:
Hey Path,
Did the adcom chastise you for your MPH courses? Did your MPH courses count on your GPA the same as your MS courses? (I know they did, just wanted to point out the obvious to Daelroy et al).
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IF I have the opportunity and time to do both an MPH and MS before applying to medical school again (this will be application #3) should I go for both. I really have an interest in doing both programs and I know that both programs where I am now are strong. I dont plan on applying until the next cycle (for fall 2006). What are the opinions here?
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W222 said:
I would imagine doing both would be an unfeasible overload. You sound a bit stressed, looking for something impressive to show an adcom. You don't have to slay dragons. You do need to figure out what is keeping you on waitlists and off admisions rolls. See if you can schedule a "sit down" with one (or more) admissions officers where you have applied. Address this question to them (in terms of MS vs. MPH). Find out what their perception of your application is and how to address problems. A specific and tailored approach is probably best for attempt #3.
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FoughtFyr said:
No, I wasn't chastized for my MPH courses way back when and yes the classes did count (thank goodness) toward my graduate GPA. As a matter of fact most of my MPH classes counted under BCPM section of the application. However, I was a little concerned that someone would ask me why I didn't enter a degree program for the MPH and finish because at that time I was looking at an MD/PhD with the PhD in Cancer Epidemiology. Luckily, no one ever did.
However in retrospect, I still wish I had finished the MPH too as Hopkins has part-time options!
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FOUGHTFYR: I did talk with a couple of adcoms this time and some things came up during interviews. They were all over the fact that I have not taken what they considered difficult science classes (according to two people) BUT this seemed to be BS because I have taken some very difficult upper level classes. They also mentioned the fact I have been out of school for four years. There also seemed to be a great deal of criticism about where I went to school and whether I thought the classes were hard (I went to a very small school). I figure that an MS in physiology would demonstrate that I can hack it BUT I really do have time to do both programs. I would technically finish one and then start the other, not exactly at the same time.
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daelroy said:
Post bacc programs were started by private medical schools to make money. Schools of Public Health were started to teach public health. Remember, the vast majority of public health students are not applying to medical school.
daelroy said:
Was this an adcom officer at the sponsoring school for your post bacc? Was this after you started your post bacc, and she was being polite?
daelroy said:
No sir, I served on one, not "spoke with".
daelroy said:
No, that is not what I said and if I was misunderstood, I apologize. There are, at least at my school, three parts to an applicant's file. There are a specific number of "points" awarded for GPA/MCAT taken together. This is the majority of the points and they are awarded when complete. There is no difference in degree program or institution given for GPA calculation. The second area is "life experience" (sometimes called "diversity") points. These are awarded for a number of things such as life experience, job experience, or completion of graduate degrees. The points here are only awarded when complete, so I didn't get the "extra" points for my MPH until it was done. The points for an MS are equal to the point for an MPH (unless the MS thesis was published, then there would be extra points for the publication - moot in my situation as I also had research). Obviously a PhD, ScD or DPH were worth more points. Post bacc and one year MS degrees were given no extra consideration in this section. The third section of "points" is the interview.
So, I did not get the "full effect" of my MPH until it was complete.
daelroy said:
Well, I was placed on full academic scholarship so it only cost me time. BTW - maybe at your school the post baccs are the top 15% of the class. Not at mine, but to be fair, neither was I so...
daelroy said:
That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Do the math with me: number of people in post bacc programs applying to medical school = 100%. Number of MPH candidates applying to Medical School ~ 15%. And MPH=reapplicant?
Actually, I didn't decide to apply at all until I was in the MPH, my professors there suggested it. So, no, my first application was as an MPH candidate.
You still think a post bacc program doesn't suggest reapplicant? Consider this, there are many, many MPHs who never intend on going to medical school. There are several more who are already doctors. I was the TA for the MPH program at my campus of my medical school. Of the 45 students we had, 0 were applying to medical school. To be fair, there were 5 physicians and 11 MD/MPH students, but 66% had nothing what so ever to do with medical school.
daelroy said:
Actually, I did enroll because I loved public health. So did my wife, who is never going to medical school. She is, however, a great hospital administrator (talk about sleeping with the enemy
). My undergrad degree was in Community Health, not science. Same could be said for many of my MPH classmates. BTW - do you have any clue how many public health students there are nationwide? The Public Health Student Caucus, a group similar to AMSA, has 4,500 members in more than 100 schools. They estimate the number of public health students totals over 20K nationwide. Are you so ignorant as to believe all of those people are trying to apply to medical school?daelroy said:
As I said before, you are lucky, talented or both. But what about those who don't get in?
daelroy said:
So now you have applied to residency too? Every residency I applied to mentioned my MPH positively. Every administrator at my school suggested I make it a point of my residency app. Open a medical textbook sometime and notice all of the MD, MPH authors. Find me one textbook where an author lists completion of a post bacc. Don't kid yourself, MPH is a respected degree in medicine.
BTW - how many MDs go back to school for their post baccs? How many go back for an MPH? Case closed.
daelroy said:
Stpe 1 and clinical grades (M3) mostly, LORs too. It was nice to be able to offer something additional.
daelroy said:
Never said they did, not better, but they did help. Especially for pharm, toxicology ROCKS!
daelroy said:
Well, I have classmates that matched into derm, optho, and neurosurg. None were asked for undergrad transcripts. But if they were, you really think that a lackluster performance in undergrad followed by a post bacc is better than graduating with honors from a big 10 school then getting an MPH on full academic scholarship?
daelroy said:
If by linkage you mean guaranteed admission, none of them. That is not what an MPH is for. If you mean how many are associated with medical schools with cross appointed faculty, almost all of them. Remember this, preventative medicine and occupational medicine residencies require acquisition of an MPH. How many residents were in your post bacc classes?
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daelroy said:
Hey, I did both an MPH and a post bacc MS, so I think I have a good vantage point of both types of programs. I dont think you sarcastic replies will gain you any converts nor convince anyone of your seriousness regarding this matter. Interestingly I have a higher GPA in my medical school course post-bacc MS than in my MPH program. You need to stop being so dogmatic about your insistence that MPH programs are a "joke" and that MS programs are much harder. Otherwise my MS gpa would be lower than my MPH gpa, which is isn't.
One thing thats certain in applying to medical school is that there are no discrete boxes that anything can be thrown into. If you feel the need to paint certain programs with such a broad brush stroke then you are sorely mistaken. I can all but guarantee you that my post bacc MS had nothing to do with my success since i got in all my schools before they even saw a single grade.
I've been open and honest about my experience with both types of programs, and we are not in any position to divine what is and isnt important to an adcomm member. I think its patently misleading to suggest that YOU know what they like and dont like. The point of SDN is to provide accurate information so people can make their OWN informed decisions. Criticizing a program different than the one you did yourself does not contribute to that, nor do irreverant replys to anyone that is contrary to your position.
Bottom line, I did both programs, so you can hardly say I'm biased. Take that for what its worth.
pathdr2b said:
I've done both too. I'm getting a 3.9 in my post bacc MS and I got a 3.7 in my MPH. go figure. The point is that the daelroy person is wrong to be categorizing each program so strictly - in essence dismissing the MPH degree and its credibility.
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exmike said:
I don't knwo HOW i forgot about youwith the exceptional app you submitted.
However, I don't think he/she is categorizing becasue I have expereinced the same comments that he's referring to in regards to the perception that the MS is a more rigorous program than the MPH. Like some of you have said, it depends on what you want/need out of a program but I can tell you that the job market for someone with a MS in say Chemistry with an MPH in Environemntal Health is great!
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hi, here is my story in a nutshell.Graduated in 99 form a small NY state school with a 2.93 GPA and 27 MCAT(11-V,7-P,9-B) wih practically no clinical experience and a little bit of dinky research project my senior year, applied, to MD school no interview...did a master in natural sciences at U of Buffalo and retook the MCAT-30(9-V,9-P,12-B) but still not alot of clincal/volunteer experience-got 4 interviews, got waitlisted but still not accepted...took 1 year to do an AmeriCorp program related to community health 2 interviews at MD schoool9 SUNY Upstate and Drexel), got waitlisted at both, and finally got off the waitlist and accepted into Drexel last summer and am finishing up my first year, all in all, it tool my 4 years in the making and having to apply 3x...my advice, if I had to do it all over again... in rank from most impt
1.)Do well on the MCAT, at least a 30 and 9's or above
2.)forget these post bacs and masters programs, they are money making schemes, i wasted alot of unecessary time and energy doing a stupid masters.. do the following:I would take between 5-10 of these courses, whatever you financial and time constraints,
take part time graduate level classes(nothing too advance, just intro or something for grad students, if you can take classes that med students take, even better) in biochem, microanatomy/histology, human or medical physio, immunology, neuroscience, stats, nutrition, genetics,pharm, micriobiology..the ones really crucial to take are the first 3, they are bif courses, the rest if you can find them and if they come easy to you...by doing this and doing well, you not only demonstrate to adcoms you are capable of doing well but alos help yourself prepare for your first year in med school, trust me, when my classmates were sweating immuno, i was cruising along because I took it in grad school
3.)do part ime research in lab, but make sure your PI does not take you for a sucker and expect you to be ther 9-5, or treat you like a post doc, and the research should be somehting obviously medically related and you find interesting
4.)recs, recs, recs..I think these really helped me, I must have had like 15 letters of rec in my file, form physicans to volunteer coordinators to undergrad and grad professors
5.)volunteer, but make sure it is medically or clincally related, look into AmeriCorp, I think they have part time prgramd that are health related, and plus they let you work with medically underserved pops, which I think is gold on the app
6.)if you get waitlisted, write many letters telling the school how much you are interested and loved their school, etc.
Hope it helps
All in all, everyone had their own root, keep strugglin, it'll happen , esp when you least suspect it, i actually had submitted my AMCAS when i found out I was taken off the waitlist, but you must realize you also have to be realistic, if you have s sub 2.5 GPA or sub 27 MCAT, look at Do schools befor eyou look at foreign schools, and if you must look foreign, look at St George
1.)Do well on the MCAT, at least a 30 and 9's or above
2.)forget these post bacs and masters programs, they are money making schemes, i wasted alot of unecessary time and energy doing a stupid masters.. do the following:I would take between 5-10 of these courses, whatever you financial and time constraints,
take part time graduate level classes(nothing too advance, just intro or something for grad students, if you can take classes that med students take, even better) in biochem, microanatomy/histology, human or medical physio, immunology, neuroscience, stats, nutrition, genetics,pharm, micriobiology..the ones really crucial to take are the first 3, they are bif courses, the rest if you can find them and if they come easy to you...by doing this and doing well, you not only demonstrate to adcoms you are capable of doing well but alos help yourself prepare for your first year in med school, trust me, when my classmates were sweating immuno, i was cruising along because I took it in grad school
3.)do part ime research in lab, but make sure your PI does not take you for a sucker and expect you to be ther 9-5, or treat you like a post doc, and the research should be somehting obviously medically related and you find interesting
4.)recs, recs, recs..I think these really helped me, I must have had like 15 letters of rec in my file, form physicans to volunteer coordinators to undergrad and grad professors
5.)volunteer, but make sure it is medically or clincally related, look into AmeriCorp, I think they have part time prgramd that are health related, and plus they let you work with medically underserved pops, which I think is gold on the app
6.)if you get waitlisted, write many letters telling the school how much you are interested and loved their school, etc.
Hope it helps
All in all, everyone had their own root, keep strugglin, it'll happen , esp when you least suspect it, i actually had submitted my AMCAS when i found out I was taken off the waitlist, but you must realize you also have to be realistic, if you have s sub 2.5 GPA or sub 27 MCAT, look at Do schools befor eyou look at foreign schools, and if you must look foreign, look at St George
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AndyDufrane said:hi, here is my story in a nutshell.Graduated in 99 form a small NY state school with a 2.93 GPA and 27 MCAT(11-V,7-P,9-B) wih practically no clinical experience and a little bit of dinky research project my senior year, applied, to MD school no interview...did a master in natural sciences at U of Buffalo and retook the MCAT-30(9-V,9-P,12-B) but still not alot of clincal/volunteer experience-got 4 interviews, got waitlisted but still not accepted...took 1 year to do an AmeriCorp program related to community health 2 interviews at MD schoool9 SUNY Upstate and Drexel), got waitlisted at both, and finally got off the waitlist and accepted into Drexel last summer and am finishing up my first year, all in all, it tool my 4 years in the making and having to apply 3x...my advice, if I had to do it all over again... in rank from most impt
1.)Do well on the MCAT, at least a 30 and 9's or above
2.)forget these post bacs and masters programs, they are money making schemes, i wasted alot of unecessary time and energy doing a stupid masters.. do the following:I would take between 5-10 of these courses, whatever you financial and time constraints,
take part time graduate level classes(nothing too advance, just intro or something for grad students, if you can take classes that med students take, even better) in biochem, microanatomy/histology, human or medical physio, immunology, neuroscience, stats, nutrition, genetics,pharm, micriobiology..the ones really crucial to take are the first 3, they are bif courses, the rest if you can find them and if they come easy to you...by doing this and doing well, you not only demonstrate to adcoms you are capable of doing well but alos help yourself prepare for your first year in med school, trust me, when my classmates were sweating immuno, i was cruising along because I took it in grad school
3.)do part ime research in lab, but make sure your PI does not take you for a sucker and expect you to be ther 9-5, or treat you like a post doc, and the research should be somehting obviously medically related and you find interesting
4.)recs, recs, recs..I think these really helped me, I must have had like 15 letters of rec in my file, form physicans to volunteer coordinators to undergrad and grad professors
5.)volunteer, but make sure it is medically or clincally related, look into AmeriCorp, I think they have part time prgramd that are health related, and plus they let you work with medically underserved pops, which I think is gold on the app
6.)if you get waitlisted, write many letters telling the school how much you are interested and loved their school, etc.
Hope it helps
All in all, everyone had their own root, keep strugglin, it'll happen , esp when you least suspect it, i actually had submitted my AMCAS when i found out I was taken off the waitlist, but you must realize you also have to be realistic, if you have s sub 2.5 GPA or sub 27 MCAT, look at Do schools befor eyou look at foreign schools, and if you must look foreign, look at St George
Andrew
Great post! I don't really disagree with what you said. I too was trying to take those 10 or 15 classes that are graduate level or upper-level classes like anatomy, biochemistry, immunology, pharmacology etc. My postbacc included ONLY those classes and I got a degree out of it too. I tried to do what you said by picking and choosing and my postbac actually included all the classes you mentioned. But I agree with your philosophy. Don't take useless biology classes. Only take the ones that will also be offerred in medical school like anatomy, biochem, immunology, pharmacology, histology, biostats, genetics, microbiology, system path/pathopysiology, human physiology, molecular biology. Focus on those classes. Do well in those classes because that's what you will take in medical school. If you can get A's in those classes; adcoms know you will most likely succeed in those classes in medical school. That's why I got in on my first attempt without a problem. There was no doubt in any of the adcom's minds because of my success in these classes. I didn't give them any opportunity to have doubt. All the classes above are challenging and require effort. There was no ambiguity in judging those classes. You don't have to do postbac or an MS if you can somehow take those classes.
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pathdr2b said:
I'm not dismissing the MPH. The MPH is a great degree if you want to work in public health. If you are trying to use the MPH to show adcoms you can handle a medical school course load, then the MPH will not serve that purpose. The MPH, in general, is not as academically rigorous as an MS or a hard science postbac. Those of you in an MPH know I'm right and are getting defensive because that was your degree. This isn't meant to be offensive but simply the truth. Compare any MPH curriculum with that of an MS in chemistry or postbac focusing exclusive on medical school related courses and it's not even close. Someone else on this thread said it best. If you have a high GPA and just need something to do while you are waiting as a reapplicant, get the MPH. You don't need to suffer in an MS or postbac unless you want an edge in medical school. BUT if you are trying cover up a weak academic record, avoid the MPH because adcoms know there are more challenging programs available.
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exmike said:
Why would someone who has an MPH pursue an MS postbac too? Hmmmm. Was the 3.7 MPH gpa not enough to get you into medical school? That doesn't sound like a strong advocacy for pursuing an MPH. You have been discussing the virtues of an MPH yet you are currently pursuing an MS postbac too. As the proponent of an MPH degree, shouldn't your MPH have been enough to get you into medical school? Why did you have to suddently enroll in a postbac? Seems like you are contradicting yourself chief.
I await your answer. This should be interesting. And it's obvious you are getting upset because I have simply exposed the truth. After all the truth hurts.
Carry on
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daelroy said:
I still don't know where you are getting this drivel. I was on an adcom, and what you are saying is simply not true. See my previous posts (which you have left unanswered). Adcoms do not "rank" graduate programs in terms of challenge. There is no way to do that. Some adcoms (especially those in schools with post bacc programs) may feel a post bacc is best, but I know that mine did not. Those of us who took the time to answer you did so with facts, not opinions. Based on either service on adcoms or the completion of both of the degrees in question. You got in with a post bacc. Congrats and all but big deal. Many others have and many others have not. But your spouting off about what adcoms will and won't consider is pure bovine scatology. I really hope you find all you are looking for in school and your career. But please, try and limit your advice in these forums to things you know about. Not things you once heard or think are true.
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FoughtFyr said:
I read your drivel and you did no such thing. You simply provided your opinion. Your facts as always are unsubstantiated and you tend to embellish them with every post. Your post isn't worth my response. I have already proven my point which is why you are getting so angry. I exposed your weak defense three posts ago. But go ahread and try to convince the rest of the forum how an MPH is academically rigorous. Most people know better. Even your comrade on this forum is pursuing an MS postbac AFTER HE GOT AN A MPH. Hypocrisy at its finest.
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daelroy said:
Actually, I'm not angry at all. I just would hate for someone who is actually looking for information on master's programs to think you knew what you were talking about.
Not worth a response? O.k., so you accept that 100% of post baccs are applying to medical school and far, far, fewer MPHs are. So which do adcoms equate to reapplicants? (Not withstanding the fact that the electronic app verifies if you are a reapplicant or not...)
And you also accept that it is absurd to argue that if an MPH is academically easier those looking to increase their GPAs should avoid them. I'll grant you if someone is looking to take a similar courseload to M1 then the post bacc is the way to go, but don't count on this to raise your GPA. And realize that you will have to do it all over again the next year (if you get in). An MPH will offer you additional training and qualification beyond medical school, as will a "hard science" MS. A post bacc won't.
Given that either just started school (or haven't started yet), we can safely assume you have not served on an admissions committee? We can also safely assume you have not interviewed any candidates, read others applications for the purpose of admissions etc.? So all of this is derived from your personal experiences? Do you really think that an adcom member at your post bacc program or at any school you applied to is going to tell you "gee, I really think you went about this all wrong. You should have taken an MPH, or an MS or a PhD". Nope, that wouldn't happen. You said yourself, you have a stellar MCAT and needed a GPA bump. You chose a path to take and it worked for you. Adcom members supportive of your application are supportive of your path. Don't take that to mean that path is right for everyone, or that any other path is wrong. You have no idea what was said behind closed doors.
I still want to know when you applied to residency given all of your wonderful opinions about that process. I got my #1 choice in the match. A competitive program in a competitive field. I believe my MPH played a role, but I won't know for sure until I've been a part of the residency seection process.
And I assume you were unable to find any practicing physician who lists completion of a post bacc among their academic achievements? Do you want a list of MDs who list their MPHs or will you just give me that one?
BTW - I thought you were "out", I am now.
My story is posted here, so is daelroy's. Thankfully we both got in, by whatever means. Do what you feel is best and good luck.
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I was browsing the forums and this one caught my eye. Let me tell you a little bit about my situation. I have always been interested in dental school not medical school. But both dental and medical schools have the same pre-requisites. And dental school is very competitive today and the gpa gap between them is becoming smaller. I had a 2.9 GPA, which was especially marred by my last two years in college. I had family problems in addition to having to raise a child on my own. I pursued an MPH because many of my fellow rejected applicants did the same. I didn?t even know what a postbac was. And an MS in some field like biochemistry didn?t seem very attractive at the time. I graduated from my program in two years with a 3.93 GPA. I was quite thrilled because I felt I nailed it. I thought I could get into any dental school I applied to. I interviewed at ten schools and was rejected by every one of them. I wasn?t able to get in touch with all the adcoms I applied to but I did speak with 4 of them. I was shocked by their response. All of them liked the fact that I had an MPH. None of them belittled the degree. They said that dentistry aspired to involve more public health related issues and that the MPH would be of value. But they also said that the MPH doesn?t erase a history of bad grades either. I asked them to elaborate and each adcom said that they receive hundreds of applications from students with MPH degrees. I was confused so I asked if they could further elaborate and the adcoms pretty much said that the MPH is not a good indicator of how a student would succeed in dental school. I was pretty upset at that point and frustrated as you could imagine. I said I did everything I could to improve my situation; what more could I have done? And nearly all the adcoms advised pursuing a postbac that involved medical school classes. Some postbacs are in the form of a masters degree which I didn?t know existed either. I was floored. I enrolled at a postbac at a local college and only took classes that the adcoms suggeste for two quarters. I retook the DAT and scored really high on it the second time. To make a long story short I was accepted to Columbia dental school this year. Columbia is one of the best dental schools in the country. Maybe it was the school at which I did my MPH, or maybe it was the individual adcoms I spoke with? I don?t know, but the comments that have been made on here rang true in my experience. Whatever happens take everyones' advice with a grain of salt.
Lillian
Lillian
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FoughtFyr said:
Postbac programs were designed to be more focus oriented toward medical school admissions. They offer MS1 related classes that best prepare students for medical school and allow one to compensate for a low GPA. They are also offerred by state schools with linked medical schools. These aren't limited to private schools. There was a great demand for them because in the past students enrolled in the MPH to buy some time and improve their applications.
You served on your adcom. You have experience with your adcom only. I will serve on mine during my third year, It's not a big deal.
But they don't compensate for low GPA's or demonstrate that a candidate is capable of dealing with a medical school curriculum. A postbac and hardcore MS offers a curriculum that is closely related to an MS1 curriculum. An MPH does not offer this. Considering we will all be MS1's and not public health care employees, which degree speaks more of one's ability to succeed in basic sciences? Uh oh, did the apple just fall from the tree?
Well you better work on those "smart" math skills because postbac students apply to PA, pharmacy, podiatry and dental school; that's not quite a 100%. Many postbac students were nonscience majors who quit their job. MPH candidates all have biology degrees so adcoms know they had the pre-reqs unlike many postbac students. So it's unlikely a bio major chose to enter public health and changed his/her mind after graduating only to apply to medical school. Throw in the fact that most of these MPH applicants have low undergrad GPA's and took the MCAT in college implies they are a reapplicant.
Yes, I'm certain your 2.8 undergrad GPA had nothing to do with you applying years later as an MPH student. You loved public health so much that you decided to enter emergency medicine instead of preventative medicine.
Yeah but the MPH candidates who do apply to medical school tend to have low GPA's. I'm sure that's just a ooincidence.
No, I never said that. What I did say is that the 15% that does apply to medical school did comprise of people who had once pondered medicine. After all, most MPH applicants to medical school have low undergrad GPA's and proof of taking the MCAT during college. I knew a lot of MPH grads that did terrible on the MCAT and went straight into the MPH knowing they would apply to medical school in the mean time.
What about them? Just because someone enrolls in a postbac, it doesn't mean they all succeed in it. We don't take easy classes like MPH students do. We earn our grades. I got one B in my postbac; the rest were A's. Maybe that had something to do with my getting in. I don't personally know of one person who achieved a 3.5 GPA or higher in post bac with a 30+ MCAT not get in. I do know of applicants who couldn't hack postbac and ended up with a sub 3.5 GPA not get in. Postbac doesn't guarantee everyone acceptance. It only guarantees a good chance to those who succeed in it. ,
Well, what are they supposed to say: your MPH is a terrible thing? Speaking positively about something doesn't mean they will admit you because of that. I never said an MPH wasn't a respected degree; it's just not one that will compensate for a low GPA in medical school admissions. And considering you are in emergency medicine and not occupational medcine, your MPH didn't seem to be used much.
How many MD's can honestly say their MPH helped them match into their field aside from preventative and occupational medicine. How many people do you think truly want to pursue preventative and occupational medicine? You think your stardard reapplicant is thinking occupational medicine? Give me a break. He or she just wants to get into medical school.
A postbac will improve one's chances into getting into an MBA, and a JD should they choose to. Those programs look at undergrad grades first. Your sub 3.0 GPA won't even get you looked at top law schools regardless of your graduate degree
.
Why? You applied to emergency medicine not occupations medicine. You don't need an MPH to match into that field let alone 95% of all medical fields.
Hey genius, they will see your overall GPA regardless of the honors that were attached. That's why your GPA was less than a 3.0. You think your director is going to miss that regardless of the honors you received. They will see that you transferred in. Your transcript lists your overall GPA. Similarly, we were given an additional bachelors degree that conferred honors upon us. Try a bachelors of science with summa cum laude with a 3.93 from a USNEWS top 20 ranked school. Not bad! I also transferred credits to earn the extra degree.
Oh so you agree with us then. So why encourage others to pursue an MPH to get into medical school if that's not what it's for. Gee, isn't that what we are debating. Seems like you are speaking out of two sides of your mouth.
Cross appointed faculty is a fancy way for saying a couple of medical school facutly teach some of our classes. How many MS1's were in yours? What percentage of your classes were MS1 related or included in MS1 classes?
BOTTOM LINE: I was accepted after a year of postbac classes while you were rejected after a year of MPH grades because your curriculum wasn't as challenging as ours. Adcoms needed to see two years of your MPH coursework while they were satisfied with a year of postbac with me. It didnm't matter whether you were considered an official MPH candidate, you could have still been accepted to medical school if adcoms were impressed with your classes and grades during your first year as an MPH. Adcoms saw your MPH coursework for your first year, but wasn't convinced. They needed another years' worth of grades before they admitted you. This was most likely due to your soft schedule of classes. A year in your program wasn't enough to convince an adcom to take you while a year in my program did. Please tell us again how an MPH is better than a postbac for getting students into medical school?
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FoughtFyr said:
Hey FoughtFyr
Adcoms (at least competent ones) actually look at your transcripts and see the individual courses you take. They don't just look at the file tab and say oh: MPH and MS are both masters degrees so they are one and the same. I won't bother looking at the individual courses in each curriculum." So while the MS and MPH both have the "M" in common, they actually take it a step further my friend. They will look at the courses involved in each program and assign weight accordingly. It's not all about placing stars and stickers next to each file that says Masters. If that's all it took, we would all be getting a Masters in Physical education and getting 4.0's....oh wait...that happens in the MPH. nevermind
daelroy said:
It is obvious that this poster insists on undermining the MPH. If you believe that, then that is fine. Sure, to you the MPH may be useless, but to 19 adcomm members out there, it was enough to prove I could hack it even though I had a 3.01 science GPA. If it didnt prove something, then maybe it was just LUCK that got me 19 interviews? Hmm luck, or my MPH? I'll go with my MPH.
On that note, i will no longer respond to your posts as you have no sense of compromise or reason. i hope your post bacc takes you far.
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exmike said:
Then why are you currently pursuing a postbac? It's really a simple question. Why do you keep avoiding it? If the MPH was enough to get you 19 interviews, why are you pursuing a postbac then? You have defended the MPH and put down the postbac yet you are pursuing the latter. The truth is you value the postbac which is why you are currently pursuing one. You got 19 interviews and no acceptances with an MPH, therefore you are pursuing a postbac. You are a hypocrite and a disingenous one at that. Only a fool would argue that an MPH is more valuable than a postbac and then pursue a postbac after he got his MPH because he didn't get into medical school with the MPH. Yes, it's best that you don't respond becauseyou lost all credibility in this thread. Look up the word hypocrite when you get a chance.
daelroy said:
Are you smoking crack? because that must be some good stuff. I finished my MPH last year (2003) then applied THIS CYCLE, I got 19 interiews, went to 10, got in 6 schools. I'M ALREADY IN MED SCHOOL. I DID NOT DO THE POSTBACC TO GET IN MED SCHOOL. THEREFORE THE SCHOOLS INTERVIEWED AND ACCEPTED ME BASED ON MY MCAT/GPA and MPH.
I am CURRENTLY in the post bacc b/c i decided it was the best way to spend my glide year 1) as insurance in case i didnt get somewhere i liked and 2) to prepare for my MS1 year. I got into all my schools before I even finished my first semester at the MS post bacc!
You pretty much just lost any credibility you have. You should read before you flame. Look up "foot in mouth" when you get the chance.
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exmike said:Are you smoking crack? because that must be some good stuff. I finished my MPH last year (2003) then applied THIS CYCLE, I got 19 interiews, went to 10, got in 6 schools. I'M ALREADY IN MED SCHOOL. I DID NOT DO THE POSTBACC TO GET IN MED SCHOOL.THEREFORE THE SCHOOLS INTERVIEWED AND ACCEPTED ME BASED ON MY MCAT/GPA and MPH.
[I am CURRENTLY in the post bacc b/c i decided it was the best way to spend my glide year 1) as insurance in case i didnt get somewhere i liked and 2) to prepare for my MS1 year. I got into all my schools before I even finished my first semester at the MS post bacc!
You pretty much just lost any credibility you have. You should read before you flame. Look up "foot in mouth" when you get the chance.
Foot in mouth, follow your own advice. You said you didn't take postbac to get into medical school and then a paragraph down, you said you used it as insurance in case you didn't get into a school you liked.
You decided to spend a year in postbac as insurance in case you didn't get in somewhere. Right, so you criticize the postbac yet you entered one as insurance because you were unsure you would get in with your MPH even after 19 interviews. In other words you valued a postbac as insurance because you were unsure about your admissions success. Then you took it to prepare yourself for MS1 classes. What's wrong, your MPH didn't accomplish that? LOL For as much crap as you spoke about the postbac, you decided to enter one at the last minute. That's like an aetheist demanding last rites. You keeping making your situation worse with every response. Keep digging. - Joined
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daelroy said:Foot in mouth, follow your own advice. You decided to spend a year in postbac as insurance in case you didn't get in somewhere. Right, so you criticize the postbac yet you entered one as insurance because you were unsure you would get in with your MPH even after 19 interviews. In other words you valued a postbac as insurance because you were unsure about your admissions success. Then you took it to prepare yourself for MS1 classes. What's wrong, your MPH didn't accomplish that? LOL For as much crap as you spoke about the postbac, you decided to enter one at the last minute. That's like an aetheist demanding last rites. You keeping making your situation worse with every response. Keep digging.
first of all, there are several types of MPH's out there...and no, they are NOT easy 4.0s, as you have implied.....an MPH in epidemiology is as hard core science as any post bacc, so your poop-ing of MPH's in general just proves you have no idea what they are all about.....i got my MPH in community health science, which is the creation of health prevention programs...not so much hardcore science, it would be more like the volunteering aspect of your application....i got to go out into communities and work with them to create health programs to benefit people....i wouldn't say that's worthless, ESPECIALLY when it comes to putting those experiences down on paper...so, anyone reading this guys posts has to take into account the fact that he has a bad opinion about something he knows nothing about....if he took a closer look, and got to know what the different MPH's are out there, and what they involve, he might feel differently....
besides, from what i've seen postbaccs don't guarantee **** either....at least with an MPH you've got a master's under your belt, and if you decide later on to work in public health with an MD degree you can.....there are tons of jobs out there for MDs with MPHs.....
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