Master's Programs?

[longshot]

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hi everyone,

i need some advice. i'm withdrawing from law school to pursue medicine. i've wanted to be a doctor for much too long without making any kind of commitment towards that goal. right now i'm trying to figure out what i need to do in order to make up for my 2.6 gpa in college and also what i can only describe as an abysmal performance in law school(below 2gpa). i majored in genetics in undergrad and i know the majority of post-bacc programs are for those students who didn't have a science background. what are some programs that I should be looking into? from my research so far, the best thing i could probably do is to go to graduate school and get an M.S. in some biomedical science - right? i also hear that maybe i should retake some of my required pre-med coursework. i did alright in most of my classes, 2 As, 2Cs, 4 Bs... at this point, what would any of you recommend? if there is really nothing convincing i could do through any kind of post-graduate program, i'm resolved to go abroad for med school so don't be shyin saying so if you think that is probably my only shot at going to med school.

 

[daelroy]

Don't bother with a Masters program and seek out a post-bac. Many schools have GPA cutoffs of 3.0 regardless of your Masters GPA. A 4.0 in a Masters program won't do you much good if your undergrad GPA is a 2.6. Your goal should be to raise your undergrad GPA to at least a 3.0 overall and your science should be close to that as well. Postbacc will help your raise your undergrad GPA while a Masters won't. Remember that your undergrad GPA is the GPA that counts when GPA cutoffs are considered. The only way I would pursue a Masters degree is if it met two requirements:

1. The masters program was affiliated with the medical school you were interested in, and didn't have GPA cutoffs.

2. The masters program was class/exam based and NOT thesis based or research based.

 

[Singing Devil]

Don't bother with a Masters program and seek out a post-bac. Many schools have GPA cutoffs of 3.0 regardless of your Masters GPA. A 4.0 in a Masters program won't do you much good if your undergrad GPA is a 2.6. Your goal should be to raise your undergrad GPA to at least a 3.0 overall and your science should be close to that as well. Postbacc will help your raise your undergrad GPA while a Masters won't. Remember that your undergrad GPA is the GPA that counts when GPA cutoffs are considered. The only way I would pursue a Masters degree is if it met two requirements:

1. The masters program was affiliated with the medical school you were interested in, and didn't have GPA cutoffs.

2. The masters program was class/exam based and NOT thesis based or research based.

Are you sure about this? I am in the master's program at BU. I have a 2.6 undergrad GPA. I have A,B,C,D, and F grades in the sciences from undergrad, and my undergrad science is a 2.3. I will NEVER get my undergrad GPA to a 3.0. I have a 37Q MCAT. I have a 3.7 at BU, am doing a master's thesis, and am being told by the asst. dean of medical admissions at BU that she expects me to be accepted into SEVERAL medical schools (including BU) out of this program.

I'm not trying to hype myself, but I'm just saying that a 2.6 undergrad GPA does NOT mean someone has to do tons more undergrad work to get it to a 3.0 to have a reasonable chance at medical school acceptance. I just think that's a lot of effort for naught. Plus, some masters programs have exceptionally high rates of med school acceptance (85%+).

Longshot, there are several masters programs, including those at BU and Georgetown. I don't know much about the rest, but I can highly recommend BU. Check out the threads on this forum for "SMP" or "Masters" and you should find more information than you need. If you find that you've taken all the prereqs and lots of undergrad science, then a postbacc program might not help you. That was the situation I found myself in, and the master's option seems to be the best solution in that situation. PM me and I can give you more info.

Here is a link to a listing of several postbacc and master's programs:
http://hpap.syr.edu/LISTPB.HTM

 

[toxin]

Agree........ 👍

 

[honestpredent]

Are you sure about this? I am in the master's program at BU. I have a 2.6 undergrad GPA. I have A,B,C,D, and F grades in the sciences from undergrad, and my undergrad science is a 2.3. I will NEVER get my undergrad GPA to a 3.0. I have a 37Q MCAT. I have a 3.7 at BU, am doing a master's thesis, and am being told by the asst. dean of medical admissions at BU that she expects me to be accepted into SEVERAL medical schools (including BU) out of this program.

I'm not trying to hype myself, but I'm just saying that a 2.6 undergrad GPA does NOT mean someone has to do tons more undergrad work to get it to a 3.0 to have a reasonable chance at medical school acceptance. I just think that's a lot of effort for naught. Plus, some masters programs have exceptionally high rates of med school acceptance (85%+).

Longshot, there are several masters programs, including those at BU and Georgetown. I don't know much about the rest, but I can highly recommend BU. Check out the threads on this forum for "SMP" or "Masters" and you should find more information than you need. If you find that you've taken all the prereqs and lots of undergrad science, then a postbacc program might not help you. That was the situation I found myself in, and the master's option seems to be the best solution in that situation. PM me and I can give you more info.

Here is a link to a listing of several postbacc and master's programs:
http://hpap.syr.edu/LISTPB.HTM

It depends on the school you are applying to. Yes, there are several schools that have GPA cutoffs of 3.0 or higher and will not accept someone regardless of their Masters GPA. That is a fact. If it is possible, then you should strive to increase your undergraduate GPA to at least a 3.0. And yes, you will be barred from applyin to several medical schools because of your stats. At the same time, I can also see you being accepted to several schools too. I just think one will just have many more opportunities if he or she can raise their GPA to a 3.0. If you can't raise your GPA to a 3.0 or above then just avoid applying to those schools with GPA cutoffs. Most private schools lack cutoffs so you will be in good shape if you focus on those However, most state schools have cutoffs and you are essentially banned from those schools if your GPA is less than a 3.0. So, you just have to avoid applying to schools that have cutoffs and there are many of those schools as well. Well, I should preface this and say this was true for most dental schools but from what I saw during interviews, the affiliated medical schools had the same if not more stringent policies regarding cutoffs. If you can't realistically raise your GPA to a 3.0 then I would do a Masters program. Hope that helps.

 

[longshot]

the problem about raising my UG gpa is that it is so low that i'd probably have to get a whole other undergraduate degree at this point to repair it to the point that i would have a 3.0....which is ludicrous, or am i wrong?

i talked to a few adcoms in my home state and 4 out of 5 said a master's program is probably my best bet but the whole situation doesn't look too well. the DO school and my alma mater were the most encouraging but i'm wondering if even going to grad school for the express purpose of getting into medical school is worth it if it is really not going to help improve my chances of acceptance.

 

[Spartacus]

I agree with Singing Devil,

Either way, you're going to have somewhat limited opportunities, but you still can attend a good allopathic medical school. I would probably go with a master's, because it would be much more useful than a second bachelor's degree. Having a master's degree will open up many more possibilities, in my opinion, even for a job while you are applying or if you don't get in right away. If you do a master's in a science, you could work in research with pretty decent pay and get good experience and/or publication which would also be a bonus for applying.

Definitely go for it if medicine is what you want to do and don't let anyone discourage you!!! 😀

Spartacus

 

[junebuguf]

First off: any improvement you can get in your ugad gpa is great. Many schools employ ugad gpa as filtering agents for secondaries and interviews. I'm sure that they also use gpa trends (placing more weight on later years).

Second, I have to say that having done poorly in ugad *and* in grad school is going to throw some red flags to ADCOMS--if you did poorly in law school, whats to say you wont do poorly in med school? (hate to drive this point home, I'm sure you're already aware...) Having spent a lot of time talking to pre-med advisors, other post-baccs and even some ADCOM members, I would highly recommend that you enroll in a post-bacc program (you may have a fight to get into a formal program with lowish numbers) and retake the pre-req classes. Of course this depnds on how long its been since you took them (I would not characterize 2 C's and 4 B's as a strong performance in pre-reqs). After that a Master's program (perhaps even special masters--the BU program that SingingDevil is in may be a good option since its two years and you wont apply till after your second year). You will have a hard time getting into the G'Town SMP program since they require a 3.0 ugad, but if you do well in a post-bacc program this coming year, you may get in. Any other MS program may work as well--MS in Biochem & Molecular Biology, or in 'Biomedical Sciences' which is offered at many places (Tulane, NYMC et.) that incorporate a few med school classes, though not as many as G'Town, BU and Drexel.

You should aim for the special masters though--the only problem is you're probably not going to get into any this year, so what should you do this year, while trying to get into the SMP programs next Fall? I vote for post-bacc, retaking the pre-reqs. Perhaps substitute some other bio classes for the two classes you got A's in.

In general, I definitely think you are at least two years away from submitting an AMCAS. You should be aiming for the 2006-2007 application cycle with an eye towards matriculating in 2007. I say this because I dont think that a year spent in a post-bacc program or even in an MS program (it is also probably approaching deadlines for most MS programs for Fall at this date) is going to be enough to overcome both a weak ugad and grad school performance. If you only had a weak ugad, it might be a different story. You also need to remember that you're going to need good LOR's as well as extracurriculars both of which you may not be able to get in one year.

Lastly, I'd set a goal for exactly where you want to be first. Is MD or DO that you're after? I'm not very familiar with DO programs, but I know the application process is quite different in terms of requirements, so you may have a good chance at DO if you apply next year.

Anyway, what you do you guys think? A year of post-bacc, SMP next fall and 2006-2007 application cycle for MD?

 

[babybribs]

sounds like a plan...maybe you should change your name from longshot for starters..ya know, part of the "Im gonna do this god darn it" attitude

 

[junebuguf]

A note about raising your gpa to 3.0: I graduated with about 140 credits and about a 2.25 overall gpa. This is all approximate, since AMCAS is strange about factoring quality points depending on the school's grading system how many credits it counts (no retakes) et., but I've since completed 10 grad credits, 32 ugad credits and will complete an additional 40 by the end of next summer. This still won't bring my ugad gpa to 3.0, BUT with an additional semester (Fall 2005), I should have it at 3.0.

So it will take me 2.5 years and 96 credits to get it there. I could have spent only a year in post-bacc with 40 credits, and then gone on to a special masters program, but I really wanted to get it to 3.0 and I didnt feel confident about taking a bunch of med school classes with only the basic pre-req preparation. Everyone is different so you may do fine, I'm just not a great crammer so if I can take med microbiology and biochem at the ugad level, I figure it'll help me in the SMP programs.

What you decide on depends on what is worth it to you, how prepared you feel and how confident you are in your application. Dont get swayed by any one opinion--just because SingingDevil got interviews with a 2.6 doesnt mean you will too (he aced the MCATs, has lab experience, went to Duke et. et.). And I honestly dont know if my ultra-meticulous method of tons of post-bacc and then maybe an SMP will yield any better results.

Go with whatever feels comfortable.

P.S. If you have had a really terrible semester where you flunked most, if not all of your classes, you may want your ugad institution to petition for a retroactive withdrawal from that semester (assuming you didnt already do that and got F's instead of W's). It could make it much easier to get to a 3.0. I would look into it.

 

[Singing Devil]

Junebug, thanks for the props. I don't think I'm really all that though (even with the Blue Devil pedigree). Just a guy who worked and thought a lot about the proper plan. 😀

My main thing is that it CAN be done, and I think a 2.6 is completely recoverable. What people in the know always told me was: start a new record and show that I'm a different student. Maybe it's just me, but I'm not sure it's hard to do well in a postbacc if one has had the courses before and done B-C work (assuming that you are right in thinking you're med school material). By the way, adcoms at three different schools told me that very thing back in 1999 (Wake Forest, UNC, and ECU). The real problem comes in convincing adcoms that your older transcript doesn't reflect who you are. It seems like longshot has done the important legwork--going to adcoms in realistic nearby schools and asking them for their input. Here on the board, we're all just schmoes, but they actually know what they're talking about. 4 out of 5 recommended the masters, so it can't be all that bad an idea. Maybe they also chew Trident.

I think junebug's right about doing some postbacc now, though. The problem comes if you're just OUT of coursework because you were a natural science major. Regardless, a little bit of decent work now should get you into a master's program, and then the rest is up to you (and not so dependent on that damn GPA hanging over your head). If I can hype BU some more, the master's you get here can be a real research thesis, which means you're set up for getting a decent job afterwards if you don't get in. Plus, you have the chance to do a MA/MPH here, which gives you even more options. (and that 85% acceptance rate ain't too bad, either)

Finally, let me add that, with regard to the previous post that state schools tend to have GPA cutoffs, I got an interview at UNC two years ago with my 2.6/2.3BCPM. That was via the MCAT. So, rocking the MCAT, which I regrettably have to do again, is another way to avoid the GPA axe.

 

[junebuguf]

...I like the commercial with the dentists recommending some toothpaste who are seated at a table with a buzzer and one of them tries to smack a fly but ends up swatting himself and falls flat on the buzzer. The tagline goes something like,'4 out of 5 dentists recommend xyz toothpaste....the fifth one? Who knows...'



Anyway, I should also say that (in support of my argument for post-bacc work), if you have a long and sordid track record of abysmal ugad and grad performance, it may not be realistic of you to expect to enter a Masters program immediately and get straight A's. Since you were a natural science major, I'm assuming your poor performance was not because you were taking humanities classes in which you had no interest instead of science classes which you were yearning to take.

You really need to prove to yourself more than any ADCOM that you can take a significant number of challenging courses and do well. Having built that confidence this past year meant a tremendous amount to me.

I don't know your personal circumstances, but it seems unlikely that you can magically take a heavy load of grad classes and do well. Improvement comes in increments, perhaps retaking the pre-reqs will ease your transition to becoming a more diligent student. Maybe only taking 12 credits your first semester instead of 15...I wouldnt rush into an MS program with a shaky foundation. After all, knowing your limitations and working within them is the best way to succeed.

Just a thought.

 

[longshot]

junebug,

i think you're onto something. i know that medical schools, and most grad schools, for that matter select a pool of applicants for consideration initially based on the numbers and THEN consider any outside corroborative information to make their decisions on who to accept. so any work towards my GPA would probably help and not hurt.

i never even considered doing a post-bacc and then going into a 1 yr master's program. it sounds like a good idea, i'm going to look into that as a prospective plan.

by the way, how do you guys pay for all these post-bacc programs? loans? part-time study/full time work? i got through this year of law school through a scholarship and stafford loans but now that i'm already in the hole by about 19K i'm not so sure that borrowing money for what may be a pipe dream is worth it.

i think i'm going to go ahead and see what it takes timewise and financially to go forward on either the postbacc/smp or the straight master's route and then see which would be better for my situation OR maybe just heading towards a Carribean school...

and SingingDevil,

i've heard about Boston University's program and was actually considering it prior to enrolling in law school. BU sounds great but I'm still weighing the advantages and disadvantages of taking several more years of my life to get into a US school as opposed to maybe taking this whole operation overseas.

i really do feel like a different person from who i was in college and i think that i've been going through some growing pains the last few years in deciding about what it is that i truly want to do with myself. my problem is that everything hinges on the external perception of who i am and marketing myself as a new and improved version. i don't really know that i can shake that image of being a poor student.

congratulations on your interviews! you seem hellbent on what you're doing and i really admire that dedication.

 

[longshot]

interestingly enough, i took more humanities towards the end of college and really enjoyed classes like sociology and foreign literature. i even made an A in a really tough shakespeare class. if i had to do it over again i would've been an english major in college instead of natural science. comparing my liberal arts grades to my science grades, i think my gpa would have definetely been better for it.

 

[Tiki]

The program at NJMS accepts applicants until July or August. It's a Masters program in Biomedical sciences and it focuses on strengthening potential med school or vet school candidates.

I think there are some posters on this board who have gone through this program. If I didn't get into med school this year, I definitely would have looked into it. I don't know if it requires a certain GPA though.

Here's the link: Masters program

 

[bubbajones]

how old will you be?

 

[daelroy]

the problem about raising my UG gpa is that it is so low that i'd probably have to get a whole other undergraduate degree at this point to repair it to the point that i would have a 3.0....which is ludicrous, or am i wrong?

i talked to a few adcoms in my home state and 4 out of 5 said a master's program is probably my best bet but the whole situation doesn't look too well. the DO school and my alma mater were the most encouraging but i'm wondering if even going to grad school for the express purpose of getting into medical school is worth it if it is really not going to help improve my chances of acceptance.

My advice only applied to those who could raise their undergrad GPA to a 3.0. I didn't know how many credits you took. If your 2.6 is based on a limited number of credits, then it is possible to raise your GPA to a 3.0. You will just have to do some number crunching to figure out if it is possible.

Sure, UNC and maybe some state schools don't have GPA cutoffs but there are many public and PRIVATE schools that do have cutoffs and won't allow one to apply if their undergraduate GPA is below a 3.0. If you know you can't realistically raise your GPA to a 3.0 then a Masters degree is your only salvation.

I don't think we are really disagreeing on this thread as much as we think. If you had a 2.8 or higher then by all means you should pursue postbac to raise your GPA to above a 3.0.

And I agree with Junebug, Singing Devil scored a 37 on his MCAT and attended Duke undergrad. His situation is different than most. His MCAT score more than his Masters degree will get him in. If you got a 37, it wouldn't really matter whether you did a Masters or postbac. Although, a 3.0 undergrad GPA may seem like a lengthy endeavor, at least it's more of a safer route because we all know for a fact that many medical schools do have application cutoffs. One such school said you had to appeal or write to allow you to apply if your GPA was below a 3.0 and that not all appeals are approved of.

Finally, don't listen to those who say adcoms suggested this. Find out for yourself. Because it's funny, I spoke with adcoms at the same schools as some of these people and they advised post-bac. I suppose they woke up on the other side of the bed that morning. 🙂

The best advice is to call the medical schools to which you are interested in and ask for their advice.

 

[mcataz]

Finally, let me add that, with regard to the previous post that state schools tend to have GPA cutoffs, I got an interview at UNC two years ago with my 2.6/2.3BCPM. That was via the MCAT. So, rocking the MCAT, which I regrettably have to do again, is another way to avoid the GPA axe.

Of course, there are state schools that don't adhere to minimum gpa requirements as there are private schools that do adhere to these grade point filters. The point is that there are many medical schools both public and private that won't allow one to apply if they don't meet a minimum GPA. If you lack a 3.0 GPA, you are essentially limiting the number of schools you can apply to. Why would you do that if it was possible for one to raise their GPA to a 3.0? If isn't possible, I understand but if it is possible then it's kind of dumb to pursue a masters over a postbac.

My situation echoed that of many who have responded. I was a borderline candidate whose best chance of getting into a medical school was his state medical school. I was told by the adcom that I couldn't apply because my amcas GPA was below a 3.0 at the time. I asked about pursuing a graduate degree and she said it wouldn't change my situation because their school requires a minimum gpa of at least a 3.0. And for most reapplicants, your state school will be your best and most realistic chance of attending a medical school so you should call your school and find out what their minimum gpa is to apply.

One last thing, many schools do not publish the fact that they have gpa filters in their admissions process. It's not a formal policy but if you don't make yourself known to the adcoms beforehand and you could get bounced by their filters. I have see that happen many times. So if you want to attend a certain medical school and your gpa is below a 3.0, make yourself stand out to the adcom before applying so they won't bounce you because of your low undergraduate gpa.

 

[Singing Devil]

One last thing, many schools do not publish the fact that they have gpa filters in their admissions process. It's not a formal policy but if you don't make yourself known to the adcoms beforehand and you could get bounced by their filters. I have see that happen many times. So if you want to attend a certain medical school and your gpa is below a 3.0, make yourself stand out to the adcom before applying so they won't bounce you because of your low undergraduate gpa.

I couldn't agree with this more. One of the reasons I have been a little down on the whole "raise your gpa to 3.0" approach is that it assumes an absolute: if your GPA is below 3.0 you'll never get in. If I started believing people who gave out absolutes, I certainly wouldn't be applying to med school now (I was told by one of the undergrad deans at Duke that I would never get in med school. Suffice to say, I'm going to write her when I do.) And yes, there are several schools that have absolutes no matter what, but the point is there are several that have "back doors" to getting in, from performing well on the MCAT to doing a postbacc or masters to being ridiculously rich and donating a building. I prefer the last option, personally, but I can't control that one. damn.

So, do what's best for you, but above all, contact your local schools, public and private, complete with your transcript and c.v. in tow, and ask them what YOU have to do to make yourself competitive. And then, keep in contact with them from then on. Not only will this keep you in their mind, but they'll know your level of commitment to medicine.

{Interesting sidebar... back in 1999, when I had a 2.1 BCPM and a 2.5 overall GPA, little lab experience, and no MCAT yet, I went to see the adcoms at Wake, UNC, ECU, and Duke. I got the most negative reaction to my application chances, even with cont. ed., postbacc, or masters, from ECU. The others were all optimistic and encouraging. I have no idea what the moral of that story is. 😎 }

 

[longshot]

to the above poster asking about how old i will be..i'm 24 now and getting into a master's program will take another year(!) and so i'm guessing i'll be 26-27 when i finally get the master's degree and all my other application materials together in time for the med school appllication process.

mbess, i'm sorry to hear that they count those INC's as Fs! have you begun to take those undergrad classes? i also have to ask what kind of courses are you taking?

all in all, i'll be spending the next few months researching programs to apply to. right now i'm strongly considering an M.S. program at a medical school in my home state. for now i think i'll be applying to grad schools and begin to study for the april mcat.

thanks everyone you've been very supportive and helpful

 

[ceberzof]

For anyone intersted, there is an Masters in Health Sciences program at the Johns Hopkins Univesity School of Public Health which can be done in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. It takes one year to complete. Almost everyone that graduated my year with reasonable grades that reapplied or applied for the first time got into medical school. It is a good option and Baltimore is a fun city. Be careful with programs that offer certificates because in the real world they mean nothing. I had an easier time finding a job this past year while applying than my friends who did programs with certificates. Just a thought.

 

[UCSB2004]

It depends on the school you are applying to. Yes, there are several schools that have GPA cutoffs of 3.0 or higher and will not accept someone regardless of their Masters GPA. That is a fact. If it is possible, then you should strive to increase your undergraduate GPA to at least a 3.0. And yes, you will be barred from applyin to several medical schools because of your stats. At the same time, I can also see you being accepted to several schools too. I just think one will just have many more opportunities if he or she can raise their GPA to a 3.0. If you can't raise your GPA to a 3.0 or above then just avoid applying to those schools with GPA cutoffs. Most private schools lack cutoffs so you will be in good shape if you focus on those However, most state schools have cutoffs and you are essentially banned from those schools if your GPA is less than a 3.0. So, you just have to avoid applying to schools that have cutoffs and there are many of those schools as well. Well, I should preface this and say this was true for most dental schools but from what I saw during interviews, the affiliated medical schools had the same if not more stringent policies regarding cutoffs. If you can't realistically raise your GPA to a 3.0 then I would do a Masters program. Hope that helps.

I keep hearing over and over again about reaching the 3.0 GPA cutoff... do you mean Science undergrad GPA must be 3.0? Or undergrad cummulative GPA must be 3.0?

Thanks.

 

[ComicBookHero20]

what does it mean bcpm or overall?

 

[Phil Anthropist]

bcpm = gpa of biology, chemistry, physics, math (gpa of science courses that med schools consider. e.g., "soft sciences" such as psychology do not count, unless the courses had a strong biological component such as neuroscience)

overall = gpa of all science courses and non-science courses together