Match 2018

[OldPsychDoc]

As a lowly first year watching the lightning strike, what do you recommend as a an appropriate lightning rod?

Do well on Step 1, get Step 2 and CS done as soon as practical and do well on them too.
Network with some real psychiatrists, get to know what the job is really like so that you can answer the "Why Psychiatry?" question from a position of some actual knowledge and experience, instead of vaguely repeated mythologies.
Rock your clerkship.
Have a wide range of programs in your application file. Be flexible with geography if you can, or aggressively target the region you want if you can't.
Pay no attention to concerns of "prestige" or "name brand" programs--show the mid-tier and safety programs lots of love.

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[zyxab]

The numbers suggest that Psych is still relatively uncompetitive, for those who demonstrate interest and come off as "psychologically minded" (Psych has same percentage of USMDs as Peds but significantly lower USMLE averages).

 

[Lunzio]

The numbers suggest that Psych is still relatively uncompetitive, for those who demonstrate interest and come off as "psychologically minded" (Psych has same percentage of USMDs as Peds but significantly lower USMLE averages).

I'd bet that the USMLE averages have since changed since 2016.

 

[zyxab]

I'd bet that the USMLE averages have since changed since 2016.

It's hard for me to believe that they've jumped to the level of Peds (6 points higher, as of 2016). That said, maybe they've gone up 2 or 3 points. The point is, we would have to give Psych the full benefit of the doubt to say it's even as competitive as Peds.

 

[Lunzio]

It's hard for me to believe that they've jumped to the level of Peds (6 points higher, as of 2016). That said, maybe they've gone up 2 or 3 points. The point is, we would have to give Psych the full benefit of the doubt to say it's even as competitive as Peds.

I think it's extremely region-specific and would personally not be surprised to see a 2-4 point jump due to the increase in competitive applicants these previous years - as cited by various PDs here and elsewhere.

 

[ortnakas]

Not psych-- clicked into this thread by accident. At any rate, mad props to you guys for matching into a specialty we REALLY NEED and that most of us either would be awful at or unwilling to do. I'm sorry so many of you are sad about geography, but I hope four years goes by as fast as med school did!

If I could somehow convince myself that I'd have been happy as a family doc in Tulsa (the "Paris of Oklahoma" per 1 resident), you'll be okay. It takes time.

 

[Mad Jack]

No one from my school matched above #4 for psych. 2/10 unmatched so I'm trying to be grateful. Also, I am closer to family so I am trying to remind myself of that.

If I could go back in time, I'd rank the smaller and or community programs at home over the more well known programs. The rank of my match program isn't giving me the same satisfaction as going home would be. I did this to myself.

I'm realizing now that home means more to me than specialty but there is nothing I can do at this point. Played the game and lost, now I've got to suffer the consequences.

 

[uhmocksuhsillen]

I'm realizing now that home means more to me than specialty but there is nothing I can do at this point. Played the game and lost, now I've got to suffer the consequences.

I'm mentally preparing myself for this reality next year. In the grand scheme it's 3-4 yrs depending on what kind of electives you can set up during fourth year.

I remember your posts when you were a first year and I was trying to get in. And here we are almost heading off to residency. The time is going to fly by, likely faster than even med school did. I'd be devasted if I had to move so far from home for residency so I get it. Just remind yourself nothing is permanent and once you're done you're back home forever...unlike other specialties who aren't so sure of a job in the locale of their choice.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm mentally preparing myself for this reality next year. In the grand scheme it's 3-4 yrs depending on what kind of electives you can set up during fourth year.

I remember your posts when you were a first year and I was trying to get in. And here we are almost heading off to residency. The time is going to fly by, likely faster than even med school did. I'd be devasted if I had to move so far from home for residency so I get it. Just remind yourself nothing is permanent and once you're done you're back home forever...unlike other specialties who aren't so sure of a job in the locale of their choice.

Unfortunately this program has a highly structured fourth year, so electives aren't going to save me. C&A closer to home could help me I suppose after third year, but matching it out of a fairly new community program might prove challenging.

 

[WingedOx]

Unfortunately this program has a highly structured fourth year, so electives aren't going to save me. C&A closer to home could help me I suppose after third year, but matching it out of a fairly new community program might prove challenging.

C+A had a ton of unfilled spots this year, supposedly. Doesn't seem to be the competitive process it used to be. Pretty sure the fellowship at my old program didn't even fill this year.

Plus it's not like it's all that difficult to transfer to PG4 spots even if kids/parents aren't your thing.

 

[Mad Jack]

C+A had a ton of unfilled spots this year, supposedly. Doesn't seem to be the competitive process it used to be. Pretty sure the fellowship at my old program didn't even fill this year.

Plus it's not like it's all that difficult to transfer to PG4 spots even if kids/parents aren't your thing.

I never even thought of a PGY-4 transfer. Basically every place I interviewed was down a PGY-4 or two, maybe I could make that work...

 

[ZucattiManicotti]

I'm just a first year, but a CAN at a DO school.

Hearing everything about Psych this year makes me think I should give up on Psych prospects this early on

 

[MADD!!!]

I'm just a first year, but a CAN at a DO school.

Hearing everything about Psych this year makes me think I should give up on Psych prospects this early on

Don’t buy into sdn too much. Someone at my school matched at a local Psych program (a solid program too) with roughly a 460 comlex 1, no usmle. It’s not all about scores.

 

[ZucattiManicotti]

Don’t buy into sdn too much. Someone at my school matched at a local Psych program (a solid program too) with roughly a 460 comlex 1, no usmle. It’s not all about scores.

I should prob mention I need a visa too :<

 

[Lunzio]

I'm just a first year, but a CAN at a DO school.

Hearing everything about Psych this year makes me think I should give up on Psych prospects this early on

If Psych is your goal - keep it! Some of the posts here have been geographically-focused in more competitive areas leading to some crowding, hence "dropping" down the rank list. You'll still be a wonderful psychiatrist regardless if you put in the effort and learn that obstacles are the name of the game in DO-land.

 

[Mass Effect]

I never even thought of a PGY-4 transfer. Basically every place I interviewed was down a PGY-4 or two, maybe I could make that work...

Not every place takes a PGY 4, even if they're down. My program doesn't take PGY 4s. I think looking at fast-tracking into C&A is your best bet, or transferring after intern year.

As for the competitiveness, it seems every year, there's a doomsday scenario about matching psych. Look, it IS getting more competitive from everything I've seen and heard. That said, my year, they also said that and people said that as a DO, I should forget it. I was dismissed from my med school for poor academic performance, ended up getting back in, took only COMLEX and scored below the average on both Level 1 and 2 (talk about red flags!). I kicked ass MS-3, did aways as an MS-4, and matched at my top choice at a well-regarded academic program in the northeast that everyone thought was out of my reach. I'm not saying that is going to happen for everyone with all those red flags. I recognize that I'm fortunate. But don't assume something is impossible because of what others tell you. Work extremely hard and don't let others bring you down.

 

[Evidence Based]

The moral of the story for any student thinking about applying into psych but getting super freaked out after reading a couple of SDN posts is "the plural of anecdote is not data."

 

[Stagg737]

just to add another anecdotal data point in regards to psych competitiveness, have a friend who just matched into one of this top 2-3 programs with comlex only.

It's hard for me to believe that they've jumped to the level of Peds (6 points higher, as of 2016). That said, maybe they've gone up 2 or 3 points. The point is, we would have to give Psych the full benefit of the doubt to say it's even as competitive as Peds.

I matched at my #1 with COMLEX only, and a relatively poor score to boot. However, board scores alone are a garbage metric for getting a complete picture of an applicant, especially in a field like psych where aspects like interview skills and social/emotional intelligence play a significant role. I'm not saying they don't matter, I just don't think board scores are the best way to measure the competitiveness of certain fields, especially when it's not a metric that's emphasized as much as others.

I matched my #4 and have felt in shock ever since opening that envelope. I thought I was very competitive. Everyone told me so. On the trail, PDs told me my app was awesome and I could go where my heart desired. I'm AOA, USMD, psych research and only wanted to do psych from the beginning, no red flags, and got strong interviews. My top 2 and 3 were not even that competitive (BIDMC and Brown). I seriously have no idea why 3 programs passed on me and it cuts deep. Especially because my #3 even wrote my a detailed love letter with phrases such as "outstanding" and "one of the best" candidates after they wrapped up interviews. I also feel so ashamed because all the other AOA kids at my school matched so well. One of them got the exact program I wanted. I just feel dead inside. Felt like all that hard work and reassurances I'd match well meant nothing.

I didn't even get the geographical location I wanted. The place I matched I fear will hold me back from doing a successful private practice on either east or west coast after I'm done. Is there any way I can transfer out? I know it probably never happens.

Already been said, but if you're interested in private practice you'll be fine regardless of where you go. The demand is great enough that even if you're not coming from the most prestigious program you'll be fine. I did several outpatient PP rotations and every one of them had a waitlist at least 3 months long for new patients and even follow-up appointments were hard to come by. If outpatient is your goal, I wouldn't worry at all.

As to your first points. Who knows how far down the lists those programs went to fill. I interviewed at a program in the NE this year that has 7 people per class and said they only went 12 positions down their list last year. This was not a prestigious program either. So a program may have genuinely loved you and ranked you near their top and just ended up filling without moving down their rank list hardly at all.

I won't tell you not to feel disappointed, or that your frustration about getting passed up is invalid. Just try and keep some perspective on the situation. You matched, and you didn't drop that far down your rank list. You'll have a job next year and beyond and will be able to pay off your loans and live comfortably after residency. Most importantly, you're going to be in the field you love and will still have a huge variety of career paths available, even if it may not be that dream position you hoped for. Sure, you may be a fantastic applicant and feel like you deserved more, but at least you've got something, which is sadly more than many great applicants can say.

Is this the new normal for psych? Or was this year an abberation? I one that's an impossible question to answer... But is it possible that the difficulty of matching can easily change year to year within one speciality?

Again, already been said but if you look at the data it's been trending this way for at least 3-4 years. Who knows how much more competitive it will get, but matching into your top choice (or even at all) is not a guaranteed thing for most like it used to be.

 

[WingedOx]

Not every place takes a PGY 4, even if they're down. My program doesn't take PGY 4s. I think looking at fast-tracking into C&A is your best bet, or transferring after intern year.

It's pretty rare to do though so it's not like programs advertise that they want transfers though. We lost a resident for 4th year when her husband suddenly moved across the country for a job. She didn't have any problem finding a program that would take her.

 

[Mass Effect]

It's pretty rare to do though so it's not like programs advertise that they want transfers though. We lost a resident for 4th year when her husband suddenly moved across the country for a job. She didn't have any problem finding a program that would take her.

Could be, but I specifically asked our program director because we'll be down a couple of PGY 4s next year and was told we never take 4s, even if we're down. Obviously, that's not the case for all programs as proven by your classmate.

 

[Sporadicus]

Unfortunately this program has a highly structured fourth year, so electives aren't going to save me. C&A closer to home could help me I suppose after third year, but matching it out of a fairly new community program might prove challenging.

Mad Jack,

You will survive, possibly thrive at this program, probably make lifelong colleagues and close friends, and, most importantly, you will learn the practice of psychiatry. If you hadn't matched at your #9 ranked program you wouldn't have matched at all, which would have come with a completely different set of problems.

For all the potentially disastrous outcomes in your medical school career, this one was, at least from your point of view, a 1:9 possibility. My only advice to you is accept it, learn everything you can over the next 48 months, and move on.

 

[Mad Jack]

Mad Jack,

You will survive, possibly thrive at this program, probably make lifelong colleagues and close friends, and, most importantly, you will learn the practice of psychiatry. If you hadn't matched at your #9 ranked program you wouldn't have matched at all, which would have come with a completely different set of problems.

For all the potentially disastrous outcomes in your medical school career, this one was, at least from your point of view, a 1:9 possibility. My only advice to you is accept it, learn everything you can over the next 48 months, and move on.

I guess I'm just realizing now that specialty matters far less to me than geography and medicine is just a job, but my family and loved ones... They can't be replaced. It's only that post-Match clarity that has made me realize that I'd be much happier as a family med resident close to home than a psych resident far from it. Career-wise, I would be equally happy as a hospitalist than as a psychiatrist, I should have applied to both specialties and ranked geographically. Pity I can't just trade, but I'll just have to do my best with what I've got I guess.

 

[deleted547631]

I guess I'm just realizing now that specialty matters far less to me than geography and medicine is just a job, but my family and loved ones... They can't be replaced. It's only that post-Match clarity that has made me realize that I'd be much happier as a family med resident close to home than a psych resident far from it. Career-wise, I would be equally happy as a hospitalist than as a psychiatrist, I should have applied to both specialties and ranked geographically. Pity I can't just trade, but I'll just have to do my best with what I've got I guess.

Follow-up general question: would applying to FM and Psych simultaneously be looked down upon and, thus, hurt matching chances? Assuming interviewers surmised from LoR's, of course.

 

[Mass Effect]

Follow-up general question: would applying to FM and Psych simultaneously be looked down upon and, thus, hurt matching chances? Assuming interviewers surmised from LoR's, of course.

If you apply to two specialties, you need different letters to maximize your chances. When I applied, I had 7 or 8 letters and I just mixed and matched them for different programs. Don't apply to two specialties at the same hospital either. There's more than one story of an applicant being spotted by one program while touring the hospital at an interview for a different program. Apply FM at hospital A and psych at hospital B.

 

[erys]

Just offering my two cents as a DO:

Matching into Psychiatry as a DO (and without a USMLE) is not an impossible feat. As long as you have no red flags (make sure your complex pe is in on time by you interview), some sort of psych interest in your application, and strong interpersonal skills during your interview, you will match into Psych. With that said, even with a strong USMLE score (although you may get an interview), you won't match into a top academic university program as a DO b/c of bias. Your best shot are academic university programs NOT in a major city or community programs. Even though the bigger academic university programs in major cities may have DOs in their PGY 2 or above class, look at their intern year. If you're a DO without a COMLEX, consider the programs with a lot of DOs (in major cities) to be reaches and not guaranteed matches--more and more DOs are taking STEP and those that do are more competitive. Make sure to rank a good amount of safeties (community programs with all IMGs/FMGs).

 

[uhmocksuhsillen]

Just offering my two cents as a DO:

Matching into Psychiatry as a DO (and without a USMLE) is not an impossible feat. As long as you have no red flags (make sure your complex pe is in on time by you interview), some sort of psych interest in your application, and strong interpersonal skills during your interview, you will match into Psych. With that said, even with a strong USMLE score (although you may get an interview), you won't match into a top academic university program as a DO b/c of bias. Your best shot are academic university programs NOT in a major city or community programs. Even though the bigger academic university programs in major cities may have DOs in their PGY 2 or above class, look at their intern year. If you're a DO without a COMLEX, consider the programs with a lot of DOs (in major cities) to be reaches and not guaranteed matches--more and more DOs are taking STEP and those that do are more competitive. Make sure to rank a good amount of safeties (community programs with all IMGs/FMGs).

Just to put it out there, within the past 8 years my school has matched to UCSF (main campus), Baylor, UCSD, UCDavis, Univ Hawaii, Harvard south shore, OHSU, UArizona, Duke, USC, LSU, UCLA Harbor.

Would agree about the need to take USMLE to be more competitive.

But a lot of what you're saying is just not true.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

How much do you think it'll hurt me to take COMLEX PE in late August? I.e Score back in Late October?

 

[Taddy Mason]

How much do you think it'll hurt me to take COMLEX PE in late August? I.e Score back in Late October?

It shouldn't hurt too much, but as someone who had to delay signing-up (CS not PE - but same difference) because of my school and subsequently reschedule the day before twice because of canceled flights secondary to weather get that **** done with ASAP!

 

[erys]

Just to put it out there, within the past 8 years my school has matched to UCSF (main campus), Baylor, UCSD, UCDavis, Univ Hawaii, Harvard south shore, OHSU, UArizona, Duke, USC, LSU, UCLA Harbor.

Would agree about the need to take USMLE to be more competitive.

But a lot of what you're saying is just not true.

That's great! I'm happy to hear there is less of a DO bias elsewhere. I should have clarified that I'm a DO student speaking from experience in the Philly/NJ/NYC region. To be fair, I didn't say that academic university programs in major cities are impossible, I said they should be considered reaches and not just expected to match at--esp if you don't have a USMLE. Lets take Philly/South NJ for example. In terms of competitiveness of the university programs: U.Penn > Jeff > RWJ/Temple > Drexel/Einstein/Cooper. As a DO you should not expect a interview from U.Penn. You will get a interview from Jeff if you have a strong STEP (however, they have taken 1 DO per class in the past two years and they both did a Sub-I). Temple does not have any DOs in their intern class and the only ones that got a interview this year from my year were ones that took the STEP. RWJ/Einstein/Cooper have typically interviewed just about everyone from previous classes in my school, however, only some received a interview this year. RWJ is all USMDs except for 2 DOs in the 4th yr class. To sum it up: Drexel/Einstein/Cooper are definitely possible as a DO, but I still wouldn't say it would be easy to get in for the average-board score COMLEX only applicant. It's been pretty rough for the 10-15 ppl in my school applying this year to psych in the philly area and I would encourage everyone who wants to match into Philly to take the STEP.

EDIT: also, 8 years is a pretty big timespan...and it's def gotten more competitive for DOs for the past 2 years and they're being pushed out of academic university programs in bigger cities.

 

[rdk322]

That's great! I'm happy to hear there is less of a DO bias elsewhere. I should have clarified that I'm a DO student speaking from experience in the Philly/NJ/NYC region. To be fair, I didn't say that academic university programs in major cities are impossible, I said they should be considered reaches and not just expected to match at--esp if you don't have a USMLE. Lets take Philly/South NJ for example. In terms of competitiveness of the university programs: U.Penn > Jeff > RWJ/Temple > Drexel/Einstein/Cooper. As a DO you should not expect a interview from U.Penn. You will get a interview from Jeff if you have a strong STEP (however, they have taken 1 DO per class in the past two years and they both did a Sub-I). Temple does not have any DOs in their intern class and the only ones that got a interview this year from my year were ones that took the STEP. RWJ/Einstein/Cooper have typically interviewed just about everyone from previous classes in my school, however, only some received a interview this year. RWJ is all USMDs except for 2 DOs in the 4th yr class. To sum it up: Drexel/Einstein/Cooper are definitely possible as a DO, but I still wouldn't say it would be easy to get in for the average-board score COMLEX only applicant. It's been pretty rough for the 10-15 ppl in my school applying this year to psych in the philly area and I would encourage everyone who wants to match into Philly to take the STEP.

That's a great summary. Having interviewed at one of the "lesser reach/competitive" programs listed above this year as a fellow DO applicant, you can clearly see the change in trend of their incoming class. If I remember correctly not only was the # of DO decreasing, the number of people from outside NE or specifically Philly was vastly diminishing.

 

[uhmocksuhsillen]

That's a great summary. Having interviewed at one of the "lesser reach/competitive" programs listed above this year as a fellow DO applicant, you can clearly see the change in trend of their incoming class. If I remember correctly not only was the # of DO decreasing, the number of people from outside NE or specifically Philly was vastly diminishing.

Forgot Einstein...we had a guy from our school match there this year, no step either, fwiw.

 

[Lunzio]

That's great! I'm happy to hear there is less of a DO bias elsewhere. I should have clarified that I'm a DO student speaking from experience in the Philly/NJ/NYC region. To be fair, I didn't say that academic university programs in major cities are impossible, I said they should be considered reaches and not just expected to match at--esp if you don't have a USMLE. Lets take Philly/South NJ for example. In terms of competitiveness of the university programs: U.Penn > Jeff > RWJ/Temple > Drexel/Einstein/Cooper. As a DO you should not expect a interview from U.Penn. You will get a interview from Jeff if you have a strong STEP (however, they have taken 1 DO per class in the past two years and they both did a Sub-I). Temple does not have any DOs in their intern class and the only ones that got a interview this year from my year were ones that took the STEP. RWJ/Einstein/Cooper have typically interviewed just about everyone from previous classes in my school, however, only some received a interview this year. RWJ is all USMDs except for 2 DOs in the 4th yr class. To sum it up: Drexel/Einstein/Cooper are definitely possible as a DO, but I still wouldn't say it would be easy to get in for the average-board score COMLEX only applicant. It's been pretty rough for the 10-15 ppl in my school applying this year to psych in the philly area and I would encourage everyone who wants to match into Philly to take the STEP.

EDIT: also, 8 years is a pretty big timespan...and it's def gotten more competitive for DOs for the past 2 years and they're being pushed out of academic university programs in bigger cities.

This brings up some excellent points that some may have a hard time understanding - just because a DO has been taken by the program in the past, doesn't mean they will continue to do so. I speak from experience in the NE region when I say that it seems as though the DO bias may be increasing (if not the same) in the region. Each of my top programs had taken DOs before, but recently slowed to a halt, as likely interest from regional upper tier schools increases.

 

[Amygdarya]

I think it's not that the DO bias is increasing, it's just that there are more MD students applying to psychiatry in general, as well as to programs that have traditionally had more DOs/IMGs/FMGs. Thus, there is more competition for the same spots, and with MDs presumed to be more competitive (which has always been the case, it's just that these programs couldn't get them before), DOs get pushed out.

 

[Lunzio]

I think it's not that the DO bias is increasing, it's just that there are more MD students applying to psychiatry in general, as well as to programs that have traditionally had more DOs/IMGs/FMGs. Thus, there is more competition for the same spots, and with MDs presumed to be more competitive (which has always been the case, it's just that these programs couldn't get them before), DOs get pushed out.

Other than bias, how else would you prefer to call MDs being preferred over DOs in that situation though?

It's a convoluted discussion obviously. When DOs with better stats are passed over for their degree, that screams bias, no?

 

[Mad Jack]

Other than bias, how else would you prefer to call MDs being preferred over DOs in that situation though?

It's a convoluted discussion obviously. When DOs with better stats are passed over for their degree, that screams bias, no?

Having more US MDs in your program ensures that more US MDs apply in the future. It's a self-reinforcing trend, just as bringing more DOs or IMGs on board seems to increase their applications to a given program. Basically you can pick lesser MD talent now in the hopes it will attract better MD talent later, and that just makes sense from a selection perspective.

 

[908377]

That's great! I'm happy to hear there is less of a DO bias elsewhere. I should have clarified that I'm a DO student speaking from experience in the Philly/NJ/NYC region. To be fair, I didn't say that academic university programs in major cities are impossible, I said they should be considered reaches and not just expected to match at--esp if you don't have a USMLE. Lets take Philly/South NJ for example. In terms of competitiveness of the university programs: U.Penn > Jeff > RWJ/Temple > Drexel/Einstein/Cooper. As a DO you should not expect a interview from U.Penn. You will get a interview from Jeff if you have a strong STEP (however, they have taken 1 DO per class in the past two years and they both did a Sub-I). Temple does not have any DOs in their intern class and the only ones that got a interview this year from my year were ones that took the STEP. RWJ/Einstein/Cooper have typically interviewed just about everyone from previous classes in my school, however, only some received a interview this year. RWJ is all USMDs except for 2 DOs in the 4th yr class. To sum it up: Drexel/Einstein/Cooper are definitely possible as a DO, but I still wouldn't say it would be easy to get in for the average-board score COMLEX only applicant. It's been pretty rough for the 10-15 ppl in my school applying this year to psych in the philly area and I would encourage everyone who wants to match into Philly to take the STEP.

EDIT: also, 8 years is a pretty big timespan...and it's def gotten more competitive for DOs for the past 2 years and they're being pushed out of academic university programs in bigger cities.

Nice summary. I interviewed at all of these programs except for Penn. Based on the last 4 years, it looks like Drexel and Cooper might be the only truly attainable ones for a DO without USMLE. Drexel is far less competitive than the other programs because people don't like Hahneman (their main hospital). Their interns have historically been DOs and IMGs. Cooper dropped the ball this year and was unanimously disliked by Philadelphia applicants as they took only 1 intern. Their program has also historically been DOs and IMGs, even in recent years.

On my RWJ interview day there were 3 DOs there, so at least they are opening the interview doors despite what ultimately happens at the match (may be regional bias -- DO schools are closer to Philadelphia and NYC than in central NJ and therefore DOs probably don't rank it as highly). As stated above, RWJ has a few DOs in the program. Jefferson has 2 or 3 DOs in the program. Temple usually has so many of its own medical students going into Psych that they just take them all. I don't think they have anything against DOs there, as their classes used to be all IMGs and DOs before 2 years ago.

Einstein historically matched several DOs but their intern class has transformed over the past few years in parallel with the increasing competitiveness of Psychiatry; this year they only took 3 out of 10 DOs as far as I know. Unanimously, the overall trend of these programs is a decreasing numbers of DOs matched, with an increasing number of MDs matched, especially at RWJ, Einstein, and Temple (Penn will always be impossible to match as a DO, sorry gang).

All that said, Philly is great and we have some excellent programs here for those who want the big city feel for the small city price

 

[Lunzio]

Having more US MDs in your program ensures that more US MDs apply in the future. It's a self-reinforcing trend, just as bringing more DOs or IMGs on board seems to increase their applications to a given program. Basically you can pick lesser MD talent now in the hopes it will attract better MD talent later, and that just makes sense from a selection perspective.

I understand the reasoning, I simply don't agree with it however. Of course I'm from the side that gets the "shorter" end of the straw, so obviously that plays into my opinion.

Our system should be moving to accept the best candidate for the position. We should integrate rather than segregate, especially with the combined match. By saying, "well, that's just how it always is," we do ourselves and our specialty a tremendous disservice, continuing the MD>DO ideology post-graduation. Picking the lesser MD applicant over the more than qualified DO applicant needs no interpretation of fairness.

 

[Mad Jack]

I understand the reasoning, I simply don't agree with it however. Of course I'm from the side that gets the "shorter" end of the straw, so obviously that plays into my opinion.

Our system should be moving to accept the best candidate for the position. We should integrate rather than segregate, especially with the combined match. By saying, "well, that's just how it always is," we do ourselves and our specialty a tremendous disservice, continuing the MD>DO ideology post-graduation. Picking the lesser MD applicant over the more than qualified DO applicant needs no interpretation of fairness.

I'm on the shafted end too, but I get why it happens

 

[Mass Effect]

Just offering my two cents as a DO:

Matching into Psychiatry as a DO (and without a USMLE) is not an impossible feat. As long as you have no red flags (make sure your complex pe is in on time by you interview), some sort of psych interest in your application, and strong interpersonal skills during your interview, you will match into Psych. With that said, even with a strong USMLE score (although you may get an interview), you won't match into a top academic university program as a DO b/c of bias. Your best shot are academic university programs NOT in a major city or community programs. Even though the bigger academic university programs in major cities may have DOs in their PGY 2 or above class, look at their intern year. If you're a DO without a COMLEX, consider the programs with a lot of DOs (in major cities) to be reaches and not guaranteed matches--more and more DOs are taking STEP and those that do are more competitive. Make sure to rank a good amount of safeties (community programs with all IMGs/FMGs).

I just don't think this is all true. Is there DO bias? Yes. They don't know what they're getting with a DO. But it's not an absolute and to tell people they can't match into a top academic university program as a DO is just misleading. It's not easy, but possible, and once you get past the initial match, it's even more possible for fellowship, whether it's child, addiction, CL, etc.

 

[Amygdarya]

Other than bias, how else would you prefer to call MDs being preferred over DOs in that situation though?

It's a convoluted discussion obviously. When DOs with better stats are passed over for their degree, that screams bias, no?

You said that the bias was increasing. I'm not denying there is a bias, I just don't think it's increasing (as in, somehow DO students have a worse reputation now than they had before). The bias is the same, it's just that there are more applicants of the preferred kind now.

 

[Lunzio]

You said that the bias was increasing. I'm not denying there is a bias, I just don't think it's increasing (as in, somehow DO students have a worse reputation now than they had before). The bias is the same, it's just that there are more applicants of the preferred kind now.

We're unfortunately mincing words for the same occurence. I did say that it may be increasing (if not the same) in the region [northeast]. A better way to phrase it would be that the bias is felt more?

The point of frustration still stands though, qualified DOs are shafted in the matter.

 

[DisorderedDoc417]

Might be a good time for DO hopefuls to consider USMD programs instead. I don’t see this trend changing.

 

[erys]

I just don't think this is all true. Is there DO bias? Yes. They don't know what they're getting with a DO. But it's not an absolute and to tell people they can't match into a top academic university program as a DO is just misleading. It's not easy, but possible, and once you get past the initial match, it's even more possible for fellowship, whether it's child, addiction, CL, etc.

I guess saying 'top' is a bit subjective. If we take Philly, the top academic program would be U.Penn. There are 0 DOs in U.Penn's program and I haven't heard of a DO student getting a interview invite there (although I may be wrong of course). You're right in that nothing in life is 100% absolute, but I don't think it would be wrong in saying that DOs have a extremely low chance in matching at U.Penn. With that said, I totally believe matching into Jeff is possible as a DO, but like I said earlier, it should be considered as a reach (1 DO per year and they've all done Sub-Is; need a USMLE to interview). And the other schools in Philly area should def not be considered 'safeties'. In previous years, Einstein/Cooper were seen as safeties at my school and almost every single applicant was offered a interview.

And I agree with you about fellowship (although only from observation as I don't have any experience applying to them). Matching into a top academic program seems more attainable for fellowships as a DO.

 

[uhmocksuhsillen]

Might be a good time for DO hopefuls to consider USMD programs instead. I don’t see this trend changing.

Unfortunately USMD programs won't touch some of us. Which of course makes sense...my string of F's and D's during my freshman and sophmore year classes are a great indicator of the type of medical student and doctor I'll be. Nevermind the 4.0 post-bacc, 5 years of real world experience post UG, or solid MCAT score.

Blows my mind that those 100 level classes are still holding me back. Wish I knew I'd be going to med school and later trying to get into a decent residency at 18-19, and simply not going to class =/= dropping a class. Not that I'm bitter...

 

[Candidate2017]

Congrats to everyone who matched!

I would like to sympathize with those who matched lower on their rank list or in places they consider undesirable but I can't. Congratulations, you get to become a psychiatrist. Quit whining, put your big boy or big girl pants by July 1 or staff will confuse you with the psych patients.

 

[Candidate2017]

Might be a good time for DO hopefuls to consider USMD programs instead. I don’t see this trend changing.

In Soviet Russia, DO chooses YOU!

 

[3lefts]

put your big boy or big girl pants by July 1 or staff will confuse you with the psych patients.

We’re all stable outpatients!

 

[waddledees]

Having more US MDs in your program ensures that more US MDs apply in the future. It's a self-reinforcing trend, just as bringing more DOs or IMGs on board seems to increase their applications to a given program. Basically you can pick lesser MD talent now in the hopes it will attract better MD talent later, and that just makes sense from a selection perspective.

I know of a lower-tier program that interviews US MDs and IMG/DO students on separate days. They're worried that the US MD applicants will think less of the program if there are a lot of DOs/IMGs interviewing on the same day as them.

 

[tthhrrooaawwaayy]

I know of a lower-tier program that interviews US MDs and IMG/DO students on separate days. They're worried that the US MD applicants will think less of the program if there are a lot of DOs/IMGs interviewing on the same day as them.

I'd think less of a program for designing interview days like that...

I have seen programs who list all their residents as "MD" on their websites despite half of the residents having a "X DO school" underneath their names. For patients I don't mind but, come on, only applicants are checking out the residency program page.

 

[tthhrrooaawwaayy]

Unfortunately USMD programs won't touch some of us. Which of course makes sense...my string of F's and D's during my freshman and sophmore year classes are a great indicator of the type of medical student and doctor I'll be. Nevermind the 4.0 post-bacc, 5 years of real world experience post UG, or solid MCAT score.

Blows my mind that those 100 level classes are still holding me back. Wish I knew I'd be going to med school and later trying to get into a decent residency at 18-19, and simply not going to class =/= dropping a class. Not that I'm bitter...

You're right. It's not fair.

I think DO bias is very regional. I grew up near a top DO school and have had many DOs as doctors growing up. I never thought anything of it and I don't now. I go to med school (MD) probably within 400 miles of the nearest DO school and there's definitely a bias amongst students from the area I've noticed when talking about DO attendings (e.g. pointing out when someone is a DO)

I would be worried about going to a DO school only because their seems to be new programs popping up anywhere. Diluting any degree does not tend to be a good thing...