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[aneftp]

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Except these colleges are making tons of extra money from these elite minority students. This is America, the land of making money. They take borderline kids, less chance of them making extra money.
Whereas in medical school they make the same regardless of who they admit as long as the seat is filled.

Yes and no. There are borderline under represented minorities students at my med school who struggled. 2 got held back. 2 dropped out.

They took spots that should have gone to better candidates due to affirmative action.

more qualified students missed out. There is a human cost.

 

[sevo00]

, experiencing being a minority for once.

Lmao. There it is. As always Choco is the victim. Speak for yourself. My family and I are also minorities and came to this country from abroad but don’t come on the internet to complain about our hardships.

 

[deleted1183938]

I’ve yet to hear an argument or explanation from you, just baseless assertions.
You act like I have some secret. I don’t. There are pluses and minuses to diversity/immigration. I don’t deny the former, but you don’t seem to want to admit the latter.

To live in a world of being a minority teaches one how to not constantly live in a world where you get the benefit of the doubt. How you get questioned based on your looks no matter your credentials and qualifications. How to think outside of your own lived experiences. How to compensate for one’s perceived shortcomings even if imagined by the other side. How to remain “professional” even when the other side doesn’t, because your equal behavior can be presumed “aggressive” and “unprofessional” but when the majority behaves that way it’s deemed “authoritative” or “taking initiative”.
It’s literally teaches people to live outside their comfort zone. Teaches a bit of empathy.
Now go.
Tell us the negatives
Because you seem to be a young version of Blade.

 

[deleted1183938]

Lmao. There it is. As always Choco is the victim. Speak for yourself. My family and I are also minorities and came to this country from abroad but don’t come on the internet to complain about our hardships.

So funny. When someone else speaks on this you ignore him. But when a new person speaks on this you immediately jump on them. Where did anyone say anything about victim except in your heads? What did I say different from
@nimbus except reinforce his statement. @nimbus, I am confused. Did I come up with this statement or did you? Your hate for this choco woman sure makes you ignore other people on this board. Is @nimbus playing victim too?

 

[deleted1183938]

Yes and no. There are borderline under represented minorities students at my med school who struggled. 2 got held back. 2 dropped out.

They took spots that should have gone to better candidates due to affirmative action.

more qualified students missed out. There is a human cost.

What you are missing is the two who got held back paid for an extra year. The schools made out and broke even for the two dropped out . 😆😆😆😆. Money is money. You think these schools really care except for money?

 

[triggermaster]

To live in a world of being a minority teaches one how to not constantly live in a world where you get the benefit of the doubt. How you get questioned based on your looks no matter your credentials and qualifications. How to think outside of your own lived experiences. How to compensate for one’s perceived shortcomings even if imagined by the other side. How to remain “professional” even when the other side doesn’t, because your equal behavior can be presumed “aggressive” and “unprofessional” but when the majority behaves that way it’s deemed “authoritative” or “taking initiative”.
It’s literally teaches people to live outside their comfort zone. Teaches a bit of empathy.
Now go.
Tell us the negatives
Because you seem to be a young version of Blade.

So… you learn to view yourself as a victim but think you know how to hide it… no thanks.

 

[deleted1183938]

So… you learn to view yourself as a victim but think you know how to hide it… no thanks.

Ok. If learning the reality of how others live outside of you is playing victim then so be it. Live and let live.

 

[aneftp]

What you are missing is the two who got held back paid for an extra year. The schools made out and broke even for the two dropped out . 😆😆😆😆. Money is money. You think these schools really care except for money?

Nope. State gave them free ride.

That’s what people don’t understand.

It’s like flying an airplane. You have no ideal who paid full price or got reduced price or if corporation paid for their airfare

All of them got free tuition.

One of under represented minorities parents is loaded. He College football player also. Got cut in nfl. Have no clue why he also got free ride. These are no merit based scholarships.

 

[deleted1183938]

Nope. State gave them free ride.

That’s what people don’t understand.

It’s like flying an airplane. You have no ideal who paid full price or got reduced price or if corporation paid for their airfare

All of them got free tuition.

One of under represented minorities parents is loaded. He College football player also. Got cut in nfl. Have no clue why he also got free ride. These are no merit based scholarships.

Plenty of others get free rides and plenty of other POC pay full price. None of the few of my class got a free ride and one took time off and repeated after we left. So… anecdotes.

 

[deleted1183938]

Yes.

Berkeley is about 40% Asian, 20% White, and 20% Hispanic.

Irvine is 37% Asian, 25% Hispanic, 15% White.

San Diego is about 30% Asian, 20% White, and 20% Hispanic.

Everyone would benefit from experiencing life as a minority at some point in their life.

How would everyone benefit from experiencing life as a minority?

 

[aneftp]

Plenty of others get free rides and plenty of other POC pay full price. None of the few of my class got a free ride and one took time off and repeated after we left. So… anecdotes.

No. These were special cases.
1. Affirmative actions cases
2. Under represented minorities obviously
3. Free tuition. All of them. All of them out of state as well. Shipped in from from another state to fill in the slots for minorities.

 

[deleted1183938]

No. These were special cases.
1. Affirmative actions cases
2. Under represented minorities obviously
3. Free tuition. All of them. All of them out of state as well. Shipped in from from another state to fill in the slots for minorities.

I am not just talking about your school. I am talking about all schools. Yours included.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

I matched into anesthesiology 10 years ago. I had good scores and was set to graduate from a top ten med school. If I remember correctly, a lot of people on this forum derided my decision, for all the usual reasons. That year, EM was competitive.

I tried EM as a medical student, and honestly, it sucked. Now that there’s a horrible job market, I bet it really sucks.

Why didn’t I get a “safe” career operating? Because, 10-12 years later, general surgery still looks miserable. I have zero interest in orthopedic surgery, aside from when the cases will finish. ENT is pretty interesting, and I almost went that direction, I had an ENT surgeon wanting to write me a letter. Meh. Clinic still seems tedious.

Anesthesia is great.

I work part time. I have no debt. What do I do with myself? Pretty much what I want. Because it’s a field you can make a life for yourself outside of your job. It turns out, there sure is a lot of good living to be had outside of work.

I don’t feel so dumb after all.

 

[Simba1711]

Yeah same situation when I applied around the same time. Emergency medicine was very popular. They kept saying the work life balance is amazing and how they only have to work about 12 shifts a month. My colleagues kept asking me why I’m going to anesthesia. The ones applying to em said with the Crna’s the specialty is going to the dumps. Told me anesthesia is so easy and boring.

Now em is in the opposite situation. Not competitive and complete taken over my mid levels. A lot of my em friends regret going into it and wish they could do anesthesia instead. I sometimes go over to the em forum and it is very depressing over there.

 

[sevo00]

I never understood the lore of EM. Everytime I went to the emergency room as a medstudnet and medicine intern my soul died. Majority of it was nursing home transfers and urgent care type issues. Seldom was it true emergencies

 

[Account1]

Yeah same situation when I applied around the same time. Emergency medicine was very popular. They kept saying the work life balance is amazing and how they only have to work about 12 shifts a month. My colleagues kept asking me why I’m going to anesthesia. The ones applying to em said with the Crna’s the specialty is going to the dumps. Told me anesthesia is so easy and boring.

Now em is in the opposite situation. Not competitive and complete taken over my mid levels. A lot of my em friends regret going into it and wish they could do anesthesia instead. I sometimes go over to the em forum and it is very depressing over there.

Never made much sense to me either.

90% of what they do is worried well, sniffles, homelessness/social work, and folks sleeping one off. Maybe 10% is acute issues or traumas, and the overwhelming majority of people hate trauma that I've met.

Most of it can be and is now done by NPs with online degrees. Not to mention the shift cycles are complete misery. Anyone with minimal foresight could see that there was a good reason the residency was only 3 years and had serious overlap with family med/internal med (anyone can do what they do).

A lot of people I knew chased what they thought was a "lifestyle" and disregarded the day to day. Almost like they couldn't imagine or didn't care what sort of patients or cognitive work they would deal with every day.

 

[NightyNight]

Yup. EM is bad. Will it be the same for anesthesia within a decade for different reasons? Just like EM, I think those applying to anesthesia don’t see the cycle that will affect them in 4 years

 

[pgg]

The notion that the EM lifestyle is "good" never made any sense to me.

Yeah it's "shift work" but a huge fraction of the shifts are nights and weekends.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Yup. EM is bad. Will it be the same for anesthesia within a decade for different reasons? Just like EM, I think those applying to anesthesia don’t see the cycle that will affect them in 4 years

Not so sure that is true because our midlevel providers view themselves as equals in the specialty and demand high salaries. I have seen PRN gigs paying $200 for CRNAs and locums as high as $250 per hour. That's very different than EM where the NPs earn $100-$120 per hour.

 

[NightyNight]

Not so sure that is true because our midlevel providers view themselves as equals in the specialty and demand high salaries. I have seen PRN gigs paying $200 for CRNAs and locums as high as $250 per hour. That's very different than EM where the NPs earn $100-$120 per hour.

Just wonder if budgets eventually will drive rates down everywhere. And then CRNAs will just take lower rates or new grads undercut to take whatever to pay loans.

There are plenty of W2 doc jobs around me starting at 400 for FT with call. Those will be taken by new grads likely. That then drives down the price unfortunately.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Just wonder if budgets eventually will drive rates down everywhere. And then CRNAs will just take lower rates or new grads undercut to take whatever to pay loans.

There are plenty of W2 doc jobs around me starting at 400 for FT with call. Those will be taken by new grads likely. That then drives down the price unfortunately.

In my decades of experience I have never seen CRNA rates/salaries "come down" ever. When I started they were lucky to earn $55,000 for a full time job.
What we MAY see is wage stabilization which is what hospital CEO/CFOs are hoping for. Inflation is still at 3% so I doubt anyone will take a pay cut.

I agree that Anesthesiologists are very poor at wage negotiation vs CRNAs which is why AMCs can get way with 2019 pay in 2024. When you factor in inflation the average wage paid by an AMC is not a penny higher than in 2019- maybe even lower.

 

[NightyNight]

In my decades of experience I have never seen CRNA rates/salaries "come down" ever. When I started they were lucky to earn $55,000 for a full time job.
What we MAY see is wage stabilization which is what hospital CEO/CFOs are hoping for. Inflation is still at 3% so I doubt anyone will take a pay cut.

I agree that Anesthesiologists are very poor at wage negotiation vs CRNAs which is why AMCs can get way with 2019 pay in 2024. When you factor in inflation the average wage paid by an AMC is not a penny higher than in 2019- maybe even lower.

Guess depends on the market. Problem with a major metro area. The only 600k jobs I see are brutal hours and calls. It would be nice to see a 50h (not a single hour more) job pay 600. I see usually 45-50 for 500ish.

 

[pgg]

Not so sure that is true because our midlevel providers view themselves as equals in the specialty and demand high salaries. I have seen PRN gigs paying $200 for CRNAs and locums as high as $250 per hour. That's very different than EM where the NPs earn $100-$120 per hour.

I would argue that's exactly the point, though.

CRNAs don't cost that much less than anesthesiologists. In many cases, when they're doing locums work, or if you consider how they often don't do call or work nights or weekends, they cost more. And there's ONE path toward being an "anesthesiologist replacer" ... CRNA school. Which we know isn't a super high bar, but it's a lot higher bar than many other midlevel-ish careers.

Contrast that with emergency medicine, for which there are MANY paths toward non-physicians "working in an ER" and displacing an EM physician to some degree. You've got NPs and PAs, not to mention family med or internal med physicians who cover ERs in some places also. And then they've got urgent care centers for which there isn't a real parallel in the anesthesia world, unless you really stretch and think that setting is comparable to an ASC for us.

Anesthesiology has shades of similar problems that other specialties have with midlevels. But they're not the same. PAs, NPs, and other doctors can't do our job.

I don't know if the anesthesiology job market will go the way of emergency medicine, in terms of compensation, hours, job security, etc. Obviously there's a big parallel threat in terms of hospitals wanting to control their ERs and anesthesia departments via direct employment. But if it does happen it won't be for the same "midlevel threat" reasons.

 

[NightyNight]

I would argue that's exactly the point, though.

CRNAs don't cost that much less than anesthesiologists. In many cases, when they're doing locums work, or if you consider how they often don't do call or work nights or weekends, they cost more. And there's ONE path toward being an "anesthesiologist replacer" ... CRNA school. Which we know isn't a super high bar, but it's a lot higher bar than many other midlevel-ish careers.

Contrast that with emergency medicine, for which there are MANY paths toward non-physicians "working in an ER" and displacing an EM physician to some degree. You've got NPs and PAs, not to mention family med or internal med physicians who cover ERs in some places also. And then they've got urgent care centers for which there isn't a real parallel in the anesthesia world, unless you really stretch and think that setting is comparable to an ASC for us.

Anesthesiology has shades of similar problems that other specialties have with midlevels. But they're not the same. PAs, NPs, and other doctors can't do our job.

I don't know if the anesthesiology job market will go the way of emergency medicine, in terms of compensation, hours, job security, etc. Obviously there's a big parallel threat in terms of hospitals wanting to control their ERs and anesthesia departments via direct employment. But if it does happen it won't be for the same "midlevel threat" reasons.

Employment is the future unfortunately. It’s just will your employer be better than the others. For that reason, non competes should be banned even for non profits. Every state needs some law to protect healthcare workers from being stuck in a **** job.

 

[aneftp]

Yeah same situation when I applied around the same time. Emergency medicine was very popular. They kept saying the work life balance is amazing and how they only have to work about 12 shifts a month. My colleagues kept asking me why I’m going to anesthesia. The ones applying to em said with the Crna’s the specialty is going to the dumps. Told me anesthesia is so easy and boring.

Now em is in the opposite situation. Not competitive and complete taken over my mid levels. A lot of my em friends regret going into it and wish they could do anesthesia instead. I sometimes go over to the em forum and it is very depressing over there.

Mid levels aren’t demanding $225/hr at the MINIMUM for emergency medicine.

Extrapolated over 40 hrs with no calls or weekends. Crnas aren’t taking less than 300k per 44 week worked. And that’s being available for 4 days a week.

U are looking at 350-400k to get crna 5 day a week availability.

That’s why I said in the future. The doc will make around 10-15% more than crnas but that comes at a cost with worst working conditions like more nights and weekend

At 2024 rates go get crnas to work “full time” with calls and 8 weeks paid off is 450k

So ask urself what’s the cost savings with crna? Not much

 

[NightyNight]

By the hour, docs are cheaper. But docs don’t have an hourly model everywhere except 1099 and certain states. Totally agree. W2 225/hr worked for a doc is the highest I’ve seen. Backup hours is a whole other problem

 

[aneftp]

By the hour, docs are cheaper. But docs don’t have an hourly model everywhere except 1099 and certain states. Totally agree. W2 225/hr worked for a doc is the highest I’ve seen. Backup hours is a whole other problem

The beeper rate is the most unknown factor.

What is ur time worth.

Most people accept $1000 for weeknight (assuming 7p is ac
$2000 for weekend /24 hr

Some docs may get $1200 ($100/hr beeper) plus call back time $450-hr.

I can tell u this. Crnas won’t take even $50/hr plus $225/hr call back time
In their mind. $50 a hr x 12 hours beeper is $600

That’s 3 hrs they can work and not have to worry about being called in

Crnas value real full potential money. Meaning. They want the guarantee $200/hr flat pay

Vs the unknown Maybe u can get crnas to bite at $100/hr for beeper plus $200/hr call back.

 

[NightyNight]

The beeper rate is the most unknown factor.

What is ur time worth.

Most people accept $1000 for weeknight (assuming 7p is ac
$2000 for weekend /24 hr

Some docs may get $1200 ($100/hr beeper) plus call back time $450-hr.

I can tell u this. Crnas won’t take even $50/hr plus $225/hr call back time
In their mind. $50 a hr x 12 hours beeper is $600

That’s 3 hrs they can work and not have to worry about being called in

Crnas value real full potential money. Meaning. They want the guarantee $200/hr flat pay

Vs the unknown Maybe u can get crnas to bite at $100/hr for beeper plus $200/hr call back.

That’s the problem. Docs need to have a beeper call worth at least half their worked rate