Match Data Tables

[Speculatrix]

The level of condescending sentiment in that excerpt is repulsive.

Anyway, just because you attended a medical school in the US doesn't mean that will make you a better potential doctor than a smarter, brighter US-IMG. Hopefully, more and more program directors will recognize this.

Do you attend a US medical school? If you do, then you would know that many parts of the education are painstakingly standardized from school to school for good reason. Attending a US medical school guarantees exposure to this, thanks to the lovely LCME. I would rather work with someone who has core competencies than an unknown who studied a lot for the boards, then chose sketchy rotations nationwide and somehow got through.

As an aside, I don't think you can talk about condescending given your thread takeover of the anti-NRMP vent thread while "playing devil's advocate" (aka Monday morning quarterback) for the students who didn't match.

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[Taurus]

LOL. Except for the fact that no other country takes this position. So you are asking the US to open it's doors to the best of the world, while the world wouldn't reciprocate. There are lots of good reasons for being self sufficient as a profession -- to have US generated students fill US needs. You never want to be in a position where you have to import talent, particularly when the need is something as important as healthcare. Every other country on the planet realizes this. The US realizes this too, but has been slow to close the door. It's closing now. Additionally, when you invest so many hundreds of thousands of dollars on someone's education (as the US does with it's loans), you need to make sure they get into a position to pay you back. That means the US dude who borrowed all those Stafford loans had better find a good job afterwards or we made a bum investment. So we NEED this person to get a spot over someone coming from a foreign venue. We, as taxpayers are footing the bill if this person doesn't get in a position to pay us back. So yeah, the US collectively has a fundamental interest in getting this person a good paying job, even at the expense of a slightly smarter overseas person who wants to come here for training. that's just common sense. So common that EVERy other country on the planet does it this way. So yeah, it is refutable. It's called good business.

This isn't a black and white issue. I feel sorry for the FMG's who can't get a spot, but we need to make sure US MD's and DO's first fill all available spots. And I hope that the move to expand US schools will close down the Carib industry. It's a shame how they exploit students down there.

 

[Knicks]

You're antagonism is astounding. You refuse to answer my question of what other reasons there are for going to the Caribbean other than being inadequate for a US school. Still haven't heard your justification.....

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Knicks]

Do you attend a US medical school? If you do, then you would know that many parts of the education are painstakingly standardized from school to school for good reason. Attending a US medical school guarantees exposure to this, thanks to the lovely LCME. I would rather work with someone who has core competencies than an unknown who studied a lot for the boards, then chose sketchy rotations nationwide and somehow got through.

As an aside, I don't think you can talk about condescending given your thread takeover of the anti-NRMP vent thread while "playing devil's advocate" (aka Monday morning quarterback) for the students who didn't match.

 

[hj0517]

I love this thread, seriously - LOVE it?!

You are applying for a job - if the institution wants you they will hire you by any means, just like with golden handshakes and so on in the corporate sector. The prematch is there for a reason and that reason is touched on with the cleveland clinic issue posted above.

The match isn't something akin to a giant playground with kids being picked for different softball teams?!

Everyone should just stop whining and grow a pair

 

[PlutoBoy]

I am a little against FMGs. Simply because the countries that they come from use watever limited resources they have to educate these doctors and then these doctors turn around and leave those countries with no loans for a better lifestyle in the US. Rural India actually have a doctor shortage right now and the US is filled with Indian educated doctors.

Yeah, let´s just get all the indians, no, all the FMG out of the US! Only God knows what they are up to, and they obviously lack skills. Real doctors are made in America!

Let´s be honest, who needs a kid that pretty much did everything possible to demonstrate his knowledge and skills not in one country, but in two, if he does not comes from an LCME school? I mean, only the LCME guys know how to get things done!

I say, deport ALL FMG´s NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! America doesnt needs this! It´s a lie to take american jobs, lower the wages and push for the North American Union, the amero, and finally a NWO with no boundaries or sovereignty! Wake up, people!

 

[bluealiendoctor]

Yep, we are entitled to those spots. If you go to med school in another country, then stay there and be a physician there. I'm sure they need you there more anyways.

Also if you couldn't cut it and had to go to the Carib's, sorry, tough luck you shouldn't be able to prematch either. With all the new American medical schools opening MD/DO alike, you should be able to get into an American Med school. We should get less spill over now since the people who traditionally went to the Carib's were either less than stellar students or good students who just barely missed out getting into a US school. Now that more US schools are opening, those good students who fell through the cracks and had to go to the Carib's should not have to do so anymore since we have more spots in the USA.

I know too many kids in college who were substellar students talking out of there asses like how they were gonna be doctors and make big money. None of them could go to a US med school so they flooded the Carib's and POLAND (wtf right?). For them, I could care less.

Just get rid of the prematch bull****, and we will all be happy. We'll even let you IMGs participate in the match. You should be happy with that.

Umm, doing basic sciences ONLY hardly translates to 'went to medical school in a foreign country'.

 

[tno77]

ultimately its the residency program that is choosing to rank certain foreign trained doctors or give them contracts outright instead of ranking a domestically trained doctor.

If there's an issue with US MDs not matching in non-competitive fields, I think those students should look at their own performance and deficiencies instead of assuming there should be a spot open to them.

They are probably a huge liability if a program would rather take a foreign doctor over them.

As for the majority of unmatched US seniors, most of them probably went for highly competitive residencies with poor match rates...I doubt IMGs are taking away their precious optho spots

 

[ResidentMD]

ultimately its the residency program that is choosing to rank certain foreign trained doctors or give them contracts outright instead of ranking a domestically trained doctor.

If there's an issue with US MDs not matching in non-competitive fields, I think those students should look at their own performance and deficiencies instead of assuming there should be a spot open to them.

They are probably a huge liability if a program would rather take a foreign doctor over them.

As for the majority of unmatched US seniors, most of them probably went for highly competitive residencies with poor match rates...I doubt IMGs are taking away their precious optho spots

 

[bambi]

I have been saying this for some time and I think this year's match results confirm this.

1) Pre-matches need to be eliminated
2) AMG's need to be given the 1st crack at all spots
3) US IMG's and FMG's should have a go at the rest

While some may say that US IMGs should fall with AMGs, I argue that they couldn't get into a US school and shouldn't be provided the same protection as those students who got through the admission process and into an LCME accredited school.

Essentially you are given 1st crack at all spots in that any IMG has to be a hell of a lot better to get the same job. It's only if you mess up in some way (e.g. bad step 1) that anyone else has a shot at all. I sort of agree with both sides of the argument really. All US grads should be able to get jobs but then again you want the best doctors right? In some cases that might be an IMG.

 

[bambi]

Well, then that is a poor argument, since you are assuming that [and therefore, making it sound like] that's the reason that US IMGs attend off-shore schools. There are a whole slew of possible reasons for US IMGs to do so.

Really what other reasons are there for a US citizen to go to an offshore med school?

#1) The vast majority are they couldn't get into a US MD school, plain and simple

2) Quicker programs (i.e 6 year programs in Poland/India elsewhere)- we have those in the US so those that choose to go elsewhere didn't apply or couldn't get into those

really what other reasons are there, there love of island life? the fine research being produced by these schools? I'd like to hear what pressing reasons one would have for picking a foreign school over a US MD school if your intention is to practice in the US.

5 years in the UK (and maybe Australia?)! The only US IMG I personally know of came here for that reason. Personally I think the education in certain countries should be linked, as in if you train in any of them you should be able to get jobs in any of them and be considered equal. Most of these anti-IMG threads seem to focus on the Caribbean and India where fine, the education isn't equal to that in the US, but plenty of people from the UK, where our training is at least equal to yours, would love to work in the US but with all the anti-IMG stuff it's practically impossible.

 

[PhakeDoc]

...Personally I think the education in certain countries should be linked, as in if you train in any of them you should be able to get jobs in any of them and be considered equal. ... but plenty of people from the UK, where our training is at least equal to yours, would love to work in the US but with all the anti-IMG stuff it's practically impossible.

And many folks trained in the US would love to work in the UK/EU, but going from US -> Europe seems considerably more difficult than the reverse which I certainly don't think is fair.

 

[Aphasic]

Anyone who attends/attended a US med school knows that nearly every lecture we get and test we take has strict guidelines and objectives based on what they expect US Seniors to know, not to mention standardized patient exams, shelf exams, etc... This is the only way to ensure that US physicians will know (or at least ought to know based on what they've been exposed to), whatever has been deemed essential. Now I'm not saying that US-IMGs or FMGs don't meet these requirements, in fact, I'm sure most of them do. But there's no way, other than a few board exams, to know for certain.

 

[Aphasic]

There are also requirements US citizens all meet before med school like SATs/ACTs, MCATs, GE reqs that FMGs don't really have. And even though most FMGs go to English-speaking schools, I have spent the better part of my clinical years doing some English-English translating for patient's who couldn't understand my FMG residents.

 

[Aphasic]

It's ridiculous that US citizens who have studied for over 20yrs and accrued a mountain of debt can't get a job, b/c a FMG decided it would be nice to live in the US, while their own home countries suffer from a lack of physicians.

 

[bambi]

And many folks trained in the US would love to work in the UK/EU, but going from US -> Europe seems considerably more difficult than the reverse which I certainly don't think is fair.

Yep, you could all come and do derm! No one here wants to do it and with private work you could still earn a fortune and have a great lifestyle! It's not fair and it would be great if it could be changed. The rest of Europe would be harder though because of the language barrier. In the UK we have so many foreign doctors that really don't speak the language well enough to do the job properly and it makes everything so much harder for everyone else and probably isn't that great for them either!

 

[bambi]

It's ridiculous that US citizens who have studied for over 20yrs and accrued a mountain of debt can't get a job, b/c a FMG decided it would be nice to live in the US, while their own home countries suffer from a lack of physicians.

So if you came from a not so nice country and worked hard to become a doctor and knew you could go somewhere nicer and make a better life for yourself and your family you wouldn't? Everyone wants the best life they can have, you can't judge people for wanting to do that because it might inconvenience you!

At the end of the day if you do well none of this is really a problem for you if you are a US grad. In the UK we take people from anywhere in the EU, they are considered totally equal to us, if they are better, they get the job. This isn't a problem for our foundation training really, we get jobs, maybe not the one we want but we get a job at least. When it comes to speciality training though, which is sort of the equivalent of your residency, this has a huge impact on us and a lot of people end up having to move to places like Australia and New Zealand to get a job yet we don't have huge forums moaning about it! We have to be better than non-UKers to get the jobs over them, you can be a hell of a lot worse than an IMG/FMG and still get a job over them!

 

[thedrjojo]

This is such a charged and loaded issue. Astonishing really the sentiment out there. There was another thread exactly like this about a month ago in this same forum.

I've stated many times that the clinical hospitals of most of the caribbean schools that i've rotated at (Every hospital in the Saint Barnabus network, which includes St. Barn, Newark BI, Clara Maass, as well as St. Micheal's are pretty weak. St. Joe's is halfway decent, but that is mainly because the UMDNJ residents go through that for IM [I believe... if I am wrong, then I am sorry]). I am also suspect of the standardization as well as the 5th semester apparently all the carib schools except SGU have. So, I think the bias PD/PC have against US-IMG and FMG's, and so the more difficult time they have getting interviews and residencies is warrented. I also think the prematch is BS. That all said, I have no misplaced sense of entitlement, and for how much of a socialist I have been called on these forums (see Topics in Healthcare if you want more proof), I think these programs should have freedom to pick whoever they want. Tons of people go to undergrad with no gaurentte of a job. There are unemployed or underemployed (or in a different field) from Law school, Business school. As long as doctors are private employees and the job is not a civil service job, as long as people getting the job have valid credentials (which could be the argument... not accepting any foreign credentials or not accepting any carib credentials, but the ECGME or whatever the letters are in control of that, and since they accept credentials, hospitals can too and these people can enter residency), PD/PC should have the right to pick whomever they want for, essentially whatever reason they want as related to their ability to do the work (not picking someone they think can do the job besides the fact they are a female, minority, homosexual and for no other reason is slightly different... not being able to communicate properly in the language does effect your job performance, going home and bumping uglies with another dude does not).

I have shared some horror stories of overqualified people almost not getting a job, and some horribly unqualified people getting a job... it doesn't just happen in medicine, but in every other business. And almost all of you arguing here to entitle medical students residency also decry the idea of any health reform that brings doctors close to being government employees. But even then, in nationalized countries like england and the NHS, they import doctors from India as well... we can't have it both ways... if Medicine is a private corporation industry of goods and services, even if Medicare pays for the residency spots, we have no obligation of service to medicare/the government after the residency spot, and there is no obligation for US AMGs to get those spots.

 

[deleted50478]

American citizens are discriminated against when they apply to medical school in favor of legacies, personal connections, minority status, etc.
Since medical school admissions are not really merit based, it would be wrong to deny USIMGs a chance to return to their own country to work.
It's bad enough that they had to go abroad in the first place because they were treated unfairly in their medical school applications, in many cases.

Foreign people have no right to live in or work in the US. It's as simple as that. When they are here, they should be treated well, but they should
only get the left-ever positions after all the Americans have matched. As was mentioned above, no other country will sell out its own citizens in
favor of us, why should we sell out our fellow citizens in favor of foreigners?

 

[bambi]

American citizens are discriminated against when they apply to medical school in favor of legacies, personal connections, minority status, etc.
Since medical school admissions are not really merit based, it would be wrong to deny USIMGs a chance to return to their own country to work.
It's bad enough that they had to go abroad in the first place because they were treated unfairly in their medical school applications, in many cases.

Foreign people have no right to live in or work in the US. It's as simple as that. When they are here, they should be treated well, but they should
only get the left-ever positions after all the Americans have matched. As was mentioned above, no other country will sell out its own citizens in
favor of us, why should we sell out our fellow citizens in favor of foreigners?

The legacy thing is irrelevant, that happens to some extent everywhere, it has nothing to do with IMGs. You could say that giving a US grad a job over a better IMG is selling out your citizens by not giving them the best doctors. Why have such an attitude about helping people move to the US and have better lives than they might otherwise? They work hard to get the jobs and then work hard for your country when they get there, why are you so against that? Again, if you are better, and often if you are worse you will still get the job, fine IMGs give you a reason to push yourself and not slack off but if you want to slack you shouldn't be in medicine anyway. Whether or not you meant it that way your post sounds like you pretty much hate anyone who isn't American, not the best attitude for a med student/doctor. If you had a terrible life in some other country and got the chance to have a better one in the US (or anywhere else) you would jump at it so don't have a go about people doing just that.

 

[Knicks]

It's ridiculous that US citizens who have studied for over 20yrs and accrued a mountain of debt can't get a job, b/c a FMG decided it would be nice to live in the US, while their own home countries suffer from a lack of physicians.

It's ridiculous that US citizens who have studied for over 20yrs and accrued a mountain of debt can't get a job, b/c they happened to attend an off-shore school and are sometimes brighter and more capable than someone who went to a US school, but sadly are 'discriminated' against.