Match -- depressing or what?

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What up fellow MSTP peeps!

I'm a 4th year MSTP and gotta say, this is one of the most depressing moments of the training so far. I've been getting mail for residency programs (nice recruitment stuff) for the past 6-10 months, my classmates just matched last week (very nice list of hospitals too), I just got a pretty card from AMA congratulating me on my non-existent match and to top it all of my little brother (who is more than 2 years younger and is about to graduate from law school) just landed a sweet mid-6 figures job. What the hell have *I* done? No light at the end of the tunnel, no first author paper, just one failed experiment after another. Man, this is rough 😡

 

[beary]

What up fellow MSTP peeps!

I'm a 4th year MSTP and gotta say, this is one of the most depressing moments of the training so far. I've been getting mail for residency programs (nice recruitment stuff) for the past 6-10 months, my classmates just matched last week (very nice list of hospitals too), I just got a pretty card from AMA congratulating me on my non-existent match and to top it all of my little brother (who is more than 2 years younger and is about to graduate from law school) just landed a sweet mid-6 figures job. What the hell have *I* done? No light at the end of the tunnel, no first author paper, just one failed experiment after another. Man, this is rough 😡

Hi,

Wow, I went through exactly the same thing as you, all the way down to little brother who is a brand new lawyer getting a great job. That is a very tough time. The end does come though - I just matched myself and have 5.5 weeks of med school left.

Hang in there. And unfortunately it will be a long time until we catch up to our little brothers. 😉

 

[Ecthgar]

What up fellow MSTP peeps!

I'm a 4th year MSTP and gotta say, this is one of the most depressing moments of the training so far. I've been getting mail for residency programs (nice recruitment stuff) for the past 6-10 months, my classmates just matched last week (very nice list of hospitals too), I just got a pretty card from AMA congratulating me on my non-existent match and to top it all of my little brother (who is more than 2 years younger and is about to graduate from law school) just landed a sweet mid-6 figures job. What the hell have *I* done? No light at the end of the tunnel, no first author paper, just one failed experiment after another. Man, this is rough 😡

Another 4th year here in the same boat........experiments not working here either. Maybe its an omen.... Anyway, I feel you pain man. Just gotta keep moving along......

 

[Gfunk6]

As an 8th year MSTPer (starting residency in June) I felt your pain. There are three especially tough times in a MD/PhD's training:

1. (Very tough) Match Day

2. (Pretty tough) Classmates head to wards while you go to lab

3. (Not too bad) Former classmates are senior residents, fellows, or (gasp) attendings when you return as an MS-3

It gets worse before it gets better . . .

 

[gutonc]

Yup...now is the time when MSTPs classically flip their $hit and have the exact same reaction you're having now. I too was in exactly the same boat a few years ago. One failed expt after another, friends all headed off to residency (slightly blunted by the fact that ~35% of our class stayed at our institution) qualifying exams...all good times. I trudged through it and you will too. Grad school is classically 3+ years of the above and then 6-12 months of things going crazy well, papers basically writing themselves and then...boom...your defense is done, you have alcohol poisoning and you're sitting around waiting for 3rd year to start.

Enjoy grad school while you can. My wife speaks fondly of my days in the lab...she likes me in my scientist hat more than my doctor hat. In a couple of years when you're holding a retractor at 4am while some poorly socialized surgery resident yells at you for breathing too loudly you'll look back fondly on these days.

Good luck...you'll make it.

BE

 

[kassie]

The worst day for me was when my classmates graduated.

It gets better! All of a sudden all the work comes together, you defend, and then you're the one graduating!

 

[smugass]

Especially if you wind up after all those years of toil in a primary care field such as IM (even subspecialties like heme-onc or rheum). Intellectual jerking off. Pitiful and bleak! Those of you who still gotta chahnce. Don't make this FATAL error!!

As an 8th year MSTPer (starting residency in June) I felt your pain. There are three especially tough times in a MD/PhD's training:

1. (Very tough) Match Day

2. (Pretty tough) Classmates head to wards while you go to lab

3. (Not too bad) Former classmates are senior residents, fellows, or (gasp) attendings when you return as an MS-3

It gets worse before it gets better . . .

 

[Myempire1]

I am a 4th year too and feel your pain. I sat there on match day drinking my congratulatory beer but felt pretty disillusioned. Experiments occasionally work but interpretation is a mess. I am looking for the light at the end of the tunnel with no luck. It looks like I might be stuck with a 4 year PhD rather than a 3... but I am coming to terms with that.

Glad to know this is the norm.

 

[mdphd2b]

I am a 4th year too and feel your pain. I sat there on match day drinking my congratulatory beer but felt pretty disillusioned. Experiments occasionally work but interpretation is a mess. I am looking for the light at the end of the tunnel with no luck. It looks like I might be stuck with a 4 year PhD rather than a 3... but I am coming to terms with that.

Glad to know this is the norm.

Dude, we've all went through this--one more sado-masochistic rite of passage in the many it takes to get an MD/PhD. I'm currently in my 6th year, and defending my PhD in 6 weeks! Honestly, the year my class was matching, I personally was still taking classes (one of which being the class from HELL!), taking my comps at the same time, and my project was crap!
I started to miss the "structure" of med school--there was always someone who planned your schedule and made sure you got through all your classes and deadlines and finished on time.

Actually my PhD boiled down to 3yr of crappy data and no pubs, and then really in the final ~6 mos when I had no coursework to worry about I got enough good data for TWO manuscripts! The other posters are right--somehow in the end it just comes together, and all of a sudden you're staring at third year with a new younger class!

Hang in there

 

[fantasty]

I started to miss the "structure" of med school--there was always someone who planned your schedule and made sure you got through all your classes and deadlines and finished on time.

I feel your pain, and I felt this quote was pretty apt - it's on another user's sig (hoberto):

Med school and grad school are hard, like swimming a mile. For med school you are in a lighted, heated lap pool with people walking alongside you telling you how far you've gone. When you are done everyone applauds and throws lots of money at you. But in grad school you start out on a deserted island on a foggy night, you can't see land in any direction. You have to swim around until you find land, for however long it takes and when you get there, it is just another deserted island.

 

[smugass]

"Actually my PhD boiled down to 3yr of crappy data and no pubs, and then really in the final ~6 mos when I had no coursework to worry about I got enough good data for TWO manuscripts!"


Yeah! Imagine a LIFETIME of crappy data and crappier pubs. You were lucky, worked really really really hard and it paid off in the end? Some losers don't have ANY first author pubs upon running off to the wards... even within months of graduation. What's there to look forward to? A life of publishing a big stack of obscure papers... nobel prize? smart, even brilliant people are so delusional...

 

[Chouster]

man, I'm just starting my MSTP program this fall... this is a hard hitting dose of reality.

 

[jjmack]

man, I'm just starting my MSTP program this fall... this is a hard hitting dose of reality.

yep, I'm a first year and it's daunting...

 

[Gut Shot]

Sigh. This is why friends don't let friends join MD/PhD programs, although it's impossible to slap any sense into the little ones. Their eyes are just so full of wonder at the thought of two debt-free doctoral degrees. Nothing like spending your 20's living on Schlitz, Ramen and questionable data. Especially when all your M1/M2 classmates are matching, graduating, moving to interesting places, learning interesting things, and meeting interesting people (and killing some of them on ICU months). They start doing crazy things like buying houses and cars and furniture, and taking vacations in places like Munich and Cabo San Lucas.

Ah well, enjoy what will someday be the "good ol' days." May they rot in Hell forever.

 

[kobester]

Been there, done that. I'm finishing now, and went through it. It'll get worse. Your classmates will be your senior residents and attendings and you'll be walking around in a dorky short white coat and getting scutted out by twenty somethings when you're pushing 30.

Remember why you did the MD/PhD. It'll pay off in the long run. If you are serious about a career in academic medicine, you will have doors fly open for you. Institutions will be throwing residencies and fellowships at you, later they'll be throwing faculty positions at you, agencies will be throwing grant money at you. Yes, you have to stay motivated and you can't just ride on your degree if you just suck, but doors are open for you as a PhD. The years of pipetting and failed experiments are just part of the learning experience, and there's no substitute for it in learning how to do science. You can be the perfect med student- kiss all the ass you want, memorize every obscure disease, rock every multiple choice medical exam, and that won't make you a capable scientist. Experience will.

When you're 40-50, nobody will remember you were a 30 year old med student. And all your classmates- you might just be their boss.

 

[Habari]

Not to be confused with your gratingly friendly neighborhood Pollyanna, I'd just like to counterpoint the dire grimstone of the posts above.

My classmates are going through third year now, and I wouldn't trade a thing to be in their place. Sure, most have generally enjoyed it, but I know many feel rushed, tired, and a little flustered to be making such a big decision based upon whatever circumstances and knowledge they have had to process. I'm curious what people I've known for these three years are going to end up doing, and I view their experience as a dry run: a gedanken experiment, if you will.

It's an incredible thing to have the time to ambiently think about what one wants to do, and just enjoy what you're doing - there seems to be little of that time on the med school roller coaster. Sure, stuff doesn't work in grad school a lot, but if that's a given, just do what you can, and know that the vast majority of people have done it before you finished successfully. A time will come when I feel ready to go back to med school, but until then, no reason to wish tomorrow upon today.

I'm counting on my classmates being my residents/attendings - it's about time I tasted the sweet ambrosia of nepotism...

 

[Gut Shot]

It'll pay off in the long run. If you are serious about a career in academic medicine, you will have doors fly open for you. Institutions will be throwing residencies and fellowships at you, later they'll be throwing faculty positions at you, agencies will be throwing grant money at you.

Unlikely. There will always be exceptions, but even those MD/PhD's who stay in academics still have to fight for tenure and fight for funding. An MD/PhD assistant professor at my graduate school had his lab space taken after he couldn't win any significant outside funding, and he ended up killing himself. That's a little extreme, to be sure, but those five letters after your name isn't going to turn your professional life into an automatic picnic.

The retention rate of MD/PhD's in science/academics is pretty dismal, and there's a good reason for it. I know a fellow who is also MD/PhD and recently accepted at private practice job. Three years to partnership, partner base salary >300K, and a 4 day work week. By your early 30's, with a spouse and a couple of kids in tow, the decision for most people is pretty clear.

 

[kobester]

Unlikely. There will always be exceptions, but even those MD/PhD's who stay in academics still have to fight for tenure and fight for funding. An MD/PhD assistant professor at my graduate school had his lab space taken after he couldn't win any significant outside funding, and he ended up killing himself. That's a little extreme, to be sure, but those five letters after your name isn't going to turn your professional life into an automatic picnic.

The retention rate of MD/PhD's in science/academics is pretty dismal, and there's a good reason for it. I know a fellow who is also MD/PhD and recently accepted at private practice job. Three years to partnership, partner base salary >300K, and a 4 day work week. By your early 30's, with a spouse and a couple of kids in tow, the decision for most people is pretty clear.

Boy do you sound bitter.

Yeah, the retention rate in academics may be dismal. But the retention rate for non-PhD's in academics is even more dismal. That's why MD/PhD's are sought after as physician scientists. There is cold hard data to back it up. People know that an MD who is doing their first hard core research as a fellow or faculty member will have a hard time competing against a person who has spent years training as a PhD. Even if the MD has done a few months in the lab and has some publications.

In the end, your academic record will have to speak for itself. Understood. And if you want to go into private practice, it is just plain dumb to get an MD/PhD (at least I think it is). But as I mentioned, there is no substitute for experience in the process if people are serious of a research career.

I am not as jaded as you. I am excited to be heading off to a very competitive residency spot that I wouldn't have gotten without my degree. And I will get essentially walk into any fellowship spot I desire. If I choose to stay in academics, I will have every opportunity to succeed. And what gave me the most preparation to succeed in my career is not which residency or fellowship I get, but is the years I spent in the lab in basic science training.

 

[Gfunk6]

I am not as jaded as you. I am excited to be heading off to a very competitive residency spot that I wouldn't have gotten without my degree. And I will get essentially walk into any fellowship spot I desire. If I choose to stay in academics, I will have every opportunity to succeed.

👍 Very well stated. I find myself in the exact same position.

 

[Gut Shot]

Boy do you sound bitter.

No, I would be bitter if I came out of 10+ years of training expecting grant money to be thrown at me, only to find that the reality of funding these days isn't all peaches and honey. I'm happy for you that your PhD has done good things for you, mine has done some good things for me, but research has turned into a bloody hard road to walk down, regardless of one's credentials (much more so than it used to be, from what the old timers have told me). I can remember when people complained that half of all NIH grants didn't get funded... now that number seems miniscule.

If you're gonna do it, though, having both degrees gives you as good a shot as you can have. I simply object to the depiction of post-MD/PhD life as a veritable dunking booth of grant money and tenure-track professorships.

 

[Vader]

No, I would be bitter if I came out of 10+ years of training expecting grant money to be thrown at me, only to find that the reality of funding these days isn't all peaches and honey. I'm happy for you that your PhD has done good things for you, mine has done some good things for me, but research has turned into a bloody hard road to walk down, regardless of one's credentials (much more so than it used to be, from what the old timers have told me). I can remember when people complained that half of all NIH grants didn't get funded... now that number seems miniscule.

If you're gonna do it, though, having both degrees gives you as good a shot as you can have. I simply object to the depiction of post-MD/PhD life as a veritable dunking booth of grant money and tenure-track professorships.

This is very well stated and a good reality check for those interested in this career pathway. It shouldn't be discouraging for those seriously interested, but applicants should be aware of these issues.

 

[BStein76]

No, I would be bitter if I came out of 10+ years of training expecting grant money to be thrown at me, only to find that the reality of funding these days isn't all peaches and honey.

If you're gonna do it, though, having both degrees gives you as good a shot as you can have. I simply object to the depiction of post-MD/PhD life as a veritable dunking booth of grant money and tenure-track professorships.

I agree, I left a MD/PhD program late into graduate school because my advisor (also MD/PhD) could not get funding and he did not get tenure leaving me SOL. His R01 was not renewed and he had 3 unsuccessful submissions to other institutes. The paylines were in the low teens for grant funding at the the time. His department chair also did no offer him bridge funding so he left academics altogether. I left graduate school with 3 first author papers (impact factors>11), but no PhD because my committee wanted me to continue the project in another person's lab (which would extend my PhD to 6-7 years). In the end it still worked out for and I matched in internal medicine (albeit at my 6th choice), but I still plan to continue research. However because of my past experiences I am a lot more realistic about the difficulty of getting research funding as an assistant professor. Many MSTP students in my program joined HHMI labs where the money seems to run free so they may have a different perspective on grant funding. As long as one doesn't have unrealistic expectations of their first couple years in research (i.e. cranking out only Cell papers, getting your R01 funded on the first try...) I think the MD/PhD route still gives you a pretty good shot at being productive.

 

[Nuel]

Havarti's assessment is more in line with reality. I have had tons and tons of conversations with advisors and faculty as to the pros and cons of the degree paradigms. It appears that, as far as basic biomedical research is concerned, your ideas have to be really good. In that vein, one's science has to be excellent regardless of whether they have an MD and/or PhD. I think Scottish Chap mentioned something along the aforementioned lines a while back.

So the idea that agencies will be throwing grant money at you because you have an MD and a PhD is one that shouldn't be taken as literal as it is stated.

I think the MD is great for the following reasons:

(1) Allows you to conduct clinical research with an incisive basic science background.

(2) Very good back-up if you cannot publish the good papers and get grant funding, i.e. you revert to purely clinical work.

Personally, I feel a PhD is for the most creative and motivated ones.

 

[thos]

Nothing like finding out all the exciting places your friends are going, then heading back to a failed experiment in lab. And the sting of a classmate asking where you matched, ouch. But this all adds up to making your own Match Day that much sweeter, and the cap to a great 6-?? years of training.

 

[Myempire1]

From what I have seen, a young/new researcher's success in getting funding does not depend on the impact of his/her graduate school work but rather on the postdoctoral work. This appears to apply to MDs, PhDs, and MD/PhDs.

In other words, if you pumped out 3 important nature papers as a post doc, you have better preliminary data and background to justify getting your first RO1. The hard part is getting that 2nd RO1.... For that you have to hit pay dirt quickly as a new PI.

I freaked out about the whole match stuff a few weeks ago and posted on this thread. But now I have calmed down back to my normal self. Gave a WIPS.... got re-excited about science..... and now I am happy playing with the cofocal, recording from horrendous brain slices, screwing up experiments that were totally flawed by design to begin with, and contaminating the lab with S35.

Cheers

 

[blkprl]

the most negative comments I get when I tell people about wanting to get an MD/PhD is......."so how do you fit a family in there?..." this makes it even more scary when you are a woman who wants to have both family and a career.

Basically, the comments you get depends on who you talk to and the experience they've had. It's up to us to determine the reasons why we want to do it and suffer through the difficult points in the training...

It is enlightening to read some of the experiences of those who are further along on the trail... thank you

 

[Astrocyte]

the most negative comments I get when I tell people about wanting to get an MD/PhD is......."so how do you fit a family in there?..." this makes it even more scary when you are a woman who wants to have both family and a career.

Basically, the comments you get depends on who you talk to and the experience they've had. It's up to us to determine the reasons why we want to do it and suffer through the difficult points in the training...

It is enlightening to read some of the experiences of those who are further along on the trail... thank you

My advisor publishes in nature medicine regularly (2/yr), and has 5 kids. She gave birth to her fifth at age 45, induced on Sat, back to work on Tues. It can be done. If you love research, just got to keep going.
I remember there was a time when she shut her office door and cried after her $1.5mil R01 was rejected. But it eventually went through.
I think faith and hardwork can take you far.

 

[Gut Shot]

My advisor publishes in nature medicine regularly (2/yr), and has 5 kids. She gave birth to her fifth at age 45, induced on Sat, back to work on Tues. It can be done. If you love research, just got to keep going.
I remember there was a time when she shut her office door and cried after her $1.5mil R01 was rejected. But it eventually went through.
I think faith and hardwork can take you far.

Doing science, step one: don't rely on anecdotal evidence.

 

[Astrocyte]

Doing science, step one: don't rely on anecdotal evidence.

Doing science is not science. anecdotal evidence is meant for inspiration. what do you suggest then? Quit doing what she loves?

 

[Gut Shot]

what do you suggest then? Quit doing what she loves?

No, but buckle up and wear a helmet.

 

[blkprl]

My advisor publishes in nature medicine regularly (2/yr), and has 5 kids. She gave birth to her fifth at age 45, induced on Sat, back to work on Tues. It can be done. If you love research, just got to keep going.
I remember there was a time when she shut her office door and cried after her $1.5mil R01 was rejected. But it eventually went through.
I think faith and hardwork can take you far.

thanks for the heads up....👍