MATCH QUESTION

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DoctorD123

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PANIC!

Just found out my #2 choice for match said they want you to have a step 2 CS score to rank you. I've been trying to get ahold of the school to see how hard of a rule this is, but haven't been able to get ahold of anyone. My question is:

Should I just leave them off my match list? It seems like odds are pretty slim I will have a shot at matching there now, and I'm worried ranking something 2 that I have no shot at will ruin my chances at places I have ranked lower. I.e. My number 3 school will be filled with people who ranked it 1 and 2 by the time the match algorithm gets to my number 3 b/c I ranked something #2 that I had no shot at.

Any help would be hugely appreciated.
 
That's a stupid rule I don't even know why step 2 cs is even a thing. Can't believe I had to drop over a g plus I have to travel to a testing site
 
Psai said:
That's a stupid rule I don't even know why step 2 cs is even a thing. Can't believe I had to drop over a g plus I have to travel to a testing site
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dont even get me started, kaus' step 2 was in the middle of that monster storm we had awhile back. all airports closed. ridiculous travel conditions.
 
I don't get why people don't just take step 2 earlier. like you're going to have to do it anyway
 
PL198 said:
I don't get why people don't just take step 2 earlier. like you're going to have to do it anyway
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Depending on your situation (e.g., necessity of doing aways, other commitments at your school, etc.), it's not always possible to do CS "earlier." Obviously that's ideal, but unfortunately that doesn't always work out.
 
Seriously, why do so many people have a hard time understanding the match algorithm? It's such a simple concept, but even some faculty don't quite understand how it works. Probably the best simple hypothetical I've heard for situations like this one: if you ranked 100 programs you didn't even interview at or apply to as your top 100 choices, and then put your list as is below it, you will match at the exact same place. The first 100 would make no difference.

Keep it ranked as your number 2. I wouldn't even contact them if you don't have it yet -- maybe they liked you and overlooked that it's missing.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
It's usually a rule that comes from on high from the institution's GME office. When you have a resident who takes the thing in May and then fails it, it's not such a stupid rule. Having interns not be able to start on time is as big a pain for the program as taking it is for you.
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We require all steps to be in by match day for the reason above (as stated per our DME). If you don't have it, you get removed. Also, this is made very clear during our interviews.

NickNaylor said:
Depending on your situation (e.g., necessity of doing aways, other commitments at your school, etc.), it's not always possible to do CS "earlier." Obviously that's ideal, but unfortunately that doesn't always work out.
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Eh...I took mine July/August of my 4th year. Best decision ever. You make it work.
 
uh oh,

I never sent my update CS scores- it was NEVER mentioned on any of my interview. Not one person ever brought up CS, let alone asked if I passed. Is this common place to require CS prior to ranking? Did I really just shoot myself in the foot?
 
NickNaylor said:
Depending on your situation (e.g., necessity of doing aways, other commitments at your school, etc.), it's not always possible to do CS "earlier." Obviously that's ideal, but unfortunately that doesn't always work out.
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Speaking of this. I heard on the interview trail that someone took step 2 as a third year during an outpatient month. Maybe that should be the gunner method to super get it out of the way? I never even contemplated taking it during third year.
 
DigStim22 said:
uh oh,

I never sent my update CS scores- it was NEVER mentioned on any of my interview. Not one person ever brought up CS, let alone asked if I passed. Is this common place to require CS prior to ranking? Did I really just shoot myself in the foot?
Click to expand...

A lot of the more competitive specialties don't actually care about CS and just want it in before you start. This could just be the case for you. They also could have required it and just dropped you down the rank list or dropped you off without telling you. I'd think if you were ranked anywhere where you would be "ranked to match" otherwise, someone would have contacted you and asked you if you had your Step 2 back. If a place put you high up on their list, they probably wouldn't just automatically kick you on the off chance you forgot to upload your CS scores. That's just speculation though, not a program director so maybe someone who actually decides that stuff can comment. Hope it works out for you.

Most programs will tell on their websites whether they want it in before ranking or matching or start of intern year though.
 
maxxor said:
Speaking of this. I heard on the interview trail that someone took step 2 as a third year during an outpatient month. Maybe that should be the gunner method to super get it out of the way? I never even contemplated taking it during third year.
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could you theoretically take step 1, have another month to study and then take CK
 
maxxor said:
CK would not be easy without having done rotations / studying for shelf exams. However, CS could easily be done if you'd had your FM/outpatient medicine rotations and know about outpatient medicine.
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Agreed. I'd be worried about doing after only one or two rotations, but I don't think there's any reason why you couldn't do it at some point during third year. The test isn't actually that difficult, but you don't know very basic medicine you'll struggle.
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
A lot of the more competitive specialties don't actually care about CS and just want it in before you start. This could just be the case for you. They also could have required it and just dropped you down the rank list or dropped you off without telling you. I'd think if you were ranked anywhere where you would be "ranked to match" otherwise, someone would have contacted you and asked you if you had your Step 2 back. If a place put you high up on their list, they probably wouldn't just automatically kick you on the off chance you forgot to upload your CS scores. That's just speculation though, not a program director so maybe someone who actually decides that stuff can comment. Hope it works out for you.

Most programs will tell on their websites whether they want it in before ranking or matching or start of intern year though.
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I hope it doesn't matter. I applied to a surgical field, excelled in step1/2CK, and have gotten several "were ranking you high/would love to have you" type emails/letters- but not one mention of CS. Also- havent seen it as a requirement on any of the program websites? I guess we'll find out. Thanks for the reply
 
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sinombre said:
Read this:

http://www.nrmp.org/match-process/match-algorithm/
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"2. The program does not have an unfilled position, but the applicant is more preferred by the program than another applicant who already is tentatively matched to the program. In that case, the applicant who is less preferred by the program is removed to make room for a tentative match with the more preferred applicant."

Huh, I didn't know the match did that.

So if you match to spot #10, that means that none of the #1-9 programs ranked you higher than one of the people that matched there, no matter what you ranked them.
 
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VisionaryTics said:
"2. The program does not have an unfilled position, but the applicant is more preferred by the program than another applicant who already is tentatively matched to the program. In that case, the applicant who is less preferred by the program is removed to make room for a tentative match with the more preferred applicant."

Huh, I didn't know the match did that.

So if you match to spot #10, that means that none of the #1-9 programs ranked you higher than one of the people that matched there, no matter what you ranked them.
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post-28553-Steve-Jobs-mind-blown-gif-HD-T-pVbd.gif
 
VisionaryTics said:
"So if you match to spot #10, that means that none of the #1-9 programs ranked you higher than one of the people that matched there, no matter what you ranked them.
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how is this new news? did you think the algorithm would just arbitrarily jump the higher ranked folks on a programs list for someone they rank lower?
 
derminterview said:
how is this new news? did you think the algorithm would just arbitrarily jump the higher ranked folks on a programs list for someone they rank lower?
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I thought that if a program has two spots, and two other people rank it #1 and you rank it #2, you will not match there even if the program ranked you #1.

Interesting
 
VisionaryTics said:
I thought that if a program has two spots, and two other people rank it #1 and you rank it #2, you will not match there even if the program ranked you #1.

Interesting
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No way man if you follow that logically all the lower ranked applicants could rank the best programs #1, jump everyone else and match there. Thats also why there can't be any final match until the entire algorithm has run for everyone bc you can have people getting kicked down from programs constantly as new people enter the algorithm.

Now you won't match there if you already matched to your number 1 and don't get trumped by anyone else in the match, but if you get put back out on the market you can kick one of those people to get put in your number 2 as long as the program has ranked you above any one of the people that preliminarily matched there.

This also forms the basis of the match strategy being rank where you want to go, not where you think is going to rank you highly. If you rank a place number one that doesnt want you, no harm, you get dropped to your next rank until you get to a place that ranked you high enough to match and kick whoever else was in that spot if it's already filled. If there were no ability to kick other applicants, then it would actually matter if you ranked somewhere #7 who ranked you #1 bc the program could have filled by the time it got to you.
 
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Is this like a perpetual issue with students and the match?

The algorithm made perfect sense to me the first time I glanced at the NRMP website before applying for med school. That's how most algorithms like this work. They work to provide each person with the highest number on their lists. Basically, you rank your top choices in order. That's it. You're not going to lower your chances of matching somewhere lower on your list just because the places you ranked higher didn't rank you.

I guess I did get something out of basic programming, logic, and advanced statistical analysis courses I took in undergrad.
 
hallowmann said:
Is this like a perpetual issue with students and the match?

The algorithm made perfect sense to me the first time I glanced at the NRMP website before applying for med school. That's how most algorithms like this work. They work to provide each person with the highest number on their lists. Basically, you rank your top choices in order. That's it. You're not going to lower your chances of matching somewhere lower on your list just because the places you ranked higher didn't rank you.

I guess I did get something out of basic programming, logic, and advanced statistical analysis courses I took in undergrad.
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This happens every year. It's almost scary to think how students probably "alter" their ranklist based on completely misunderstanding the match algorithm.

Literally just list your programs in order of preference. Then go have a beer.
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
This happens every year. It's almost scary to think how students probably "alter" their ranklist based on completely misunderstanding the match algorithm.

Literally just list your programs in order of preference. Then go have a beer.
Click to expand...

it's hilarious how people spend all this time in undergrad and med school doing a bunch of work and then can't take like an hour to sit down and understand how the match works and how to apply broadly enough that you match. between the people who try to game the match and the other people who only apply to like 5 programs because they think they're the ****, it's hilarious how they're essentially jeopardizing their entire career over something that could be figured out in an extremely minuscule amount of time relative to the work they've already done.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
What's really scary is when the schools/deans/advisors don't understand it. You hear stories all the time of someone telling a student to rank a safety program high so that they don't go unmatched or not to have too many reach schools at the top of your list, etc.

And we see it all the time with smart people. I mean you saw just on this thread with VT and another smart poster had the same misconceptions this week (which is particularly scary since he just turned in his rank list).
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....... :rage:
 
Like I said in the other thread this is the exact same way sorority recruitment worked at my undergrad. It's not that complicated, just make a list of where you want to go from most preferred to least preferred. That's it.
 
It almost seems like they try to mystify it and make it seem like an insanely complex algorithm that we mortals could only hope to understand, so they put all of this information online and a three page example match to "dumb it down" for everyone. Why not just say "rank the programs in the order of where you want to be, and you'll match at the first one with an open slot?"
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
:shrug:

It's one of the most constant SDN misconceptions. Happens every single year since I've been here. I've just gotten more brusque with my replies to it over time due to steadily accumulating curmudgeonness.

Edit: I wish SDN had a feature where you could create a saved repository of some of your own posts. I find increasingly that when someone posts a question I think to myself - I know I answered that at some point in the past but I don't have the emotional energy to do it again...
Click to expand...

That would be such an awesome feature. I would use the daily.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
:shrug:

It's one of the most constant SDN misconceptions. Happens every single year since I've been here. I've just gotten more brusque with my replies to it over time due to steadily accumulating curmudgeonness.

Edit: I wish SDN had a feature where you could create a saved repository of some of your own posts. I find increasingly that when someone posts a question I think to myself - I know I answered that at some point in the past but I don't have the emotional energy to do it again...
Click to expand...

We could probably compile a FAQ thread and then sticky it...

(and then link to it when the same questions arise)
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
What's really scary is when the schools/deans/advisors don't understand it. You hear stories all the time of someone telling a student to rank a safety program high so that they don't go unmatched or not to have too many reach schools at the top of your list, etc...
Click to expand...

That's just ridiculous. It's one thing for a student that goes through the match once to do it, but school administrators and advisors should know better. It's terrible advice that's detrimental to their students.

The only sinister reason I could think of would be hoping to prevent their students from going far down their ROL, but it's not like ignorance on their part is really much better.

It's one thing to suggest applying to "safety" programs is a good idea, it's another completely to tell people not to rank their programs in order of their interest in the program.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
:shrug:

It's one of the most constant SDN misconceptions. Happens every single year since I've been here. I've just gotten more brusque with my replies to it over time due to steadily accumulating curmudgeonness.

Edit: I wish SDN had a feature where you could create a saved repository of some of your own posts. I find increasingly that when someone posts a question I think to myself - I know I answered that at some point in the past but I don't have the emotional energy to do it again...
Click to expand...

You can't really blame the student themselves... it's hard not to believe what staff/people at your school or other programs sometimes. It's fear mongering. Or stupidity. I dunno

sinombre said:
We could probably compile a FAQ thread and then sticky it...

(and then link to it when the same questions arise)
Click to expand...

Now you're being ridiculous
 
Kaustikos said:
You can't really blame the student themselves... it's hard not to believe what staff/people at your school or other programs sometimes. It's fear mongering. Or stupidity. I dunno



Now you're being ridiculous
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I mean, the algorithm is on the website with pretty clear sample examples...

Also, anyone who believes what their student affairs or what other students says without confirming it when it comes to the rest of their career......foolish to say the least.
 
Kaustikos said:
Now you're being ridiculous
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I'm not suggesting any one person actually put a ton of effort into creating a FAQ thread. Just that some of the responses that have already been posted to the most common questions get copy and pasted into a stickied thread. That's a pretty common thing on most forums.

You could probably make the entire thread out of things SouthernSurgeon has already posted.
 
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SouthernSurgeon said:
:shrug:

It's one of the most constant SDN misconceptions. Happens every single year since I've been here. I've just gotten more brusque with my replies to it over time due to steadily accumulating curmudgeonness.

Edit: I wish SDN had a feature where you could create a saved repository of some of your own posts. I find increasingly that when someone posts a question I think to myself - I know I answered that at some point in the past but I don't have the emotional energy to do it again...
Click to expand...
This would be immensely useful for me
 
Wordead said:
I mean, the algorithm is on the website with pretty clear sample examples...

Also, anyone who believes what their student affairs or what other students says without confirming it when it comes to the rest of their career......foolish to say the least.
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Yes,
I'm not disagreeing about that. I've learned to always take things with a grain of salt, but it's not to say some part of me thinks "Well, the site says this but why are these attendings/etc saying otherwise?"



sinombre said:
I'm not suggesting any one person actually put a ton of effort into creating a FAQ thread. Just that some of the responses that have already been posted to the most common questions get copy and pasted into a stickied thread. That's a pretty common thing on most forums.

You could probably make the entire thread out of things SouthernSurgeon has already posted.
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I was being facetious... sorry lol. I agree completely with what you said!

SouthernSurgeon said:
Med students are paranoid. They think they're being lied to and that they know better.
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Paranoid? Probably. Know better? That's not how I feel. More frustrated/annoyed about it. I want to believe but you can't disagree that my cynicism isn't completely delusional.
 
Wordead said:
I mean, the algorithm is on the website with pretty clear sample examples...

Also, anyone who believes what their student affairs or what other students says without confirming it when it comes to the rest of their career......foolish to say the least.
Click to expand...

exactly. I can't remember the last time I heard my student affairs people say something I agreed with
 
What is really scary, and this blew my socks off when I read it is that not only does the Dean of Cornell not understand the match algorithm, but the AAMC would post her misunderstanding of the match algorithm on their website. I mean how can people so important to this process not understand it?
I'm sure you guys will get a kick out of this... (read 6th paragraph in the article- "reasonable order"?! the only order to rank in that is reasonable is by preference, no amount of manipulation or strategy, as discussed above in detail, can cheat the algorithm).

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/april2013/334068/match.html
 
MaliOMali said:
What is really scary, and this blew my socks off when I read it is that not only does the Dean of Cornell not understand the match algorithm, but the AAMC would post her misunderstanding of the match algorithm on their website. I mean how can people so important to this process not understand it?
I'm sure you guys will get a kick out of this... (read 6th paragraph in the article- "reasonable order"?! the only order to rank in that is reasonable is by preference, no amount of manipulation or strategy, as discussed above in detail, can cheat the algorithm).

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/april2013/334068/match.html
Click to expand...
That was really funny. And a little sad.
 
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