Max work hours for interns include call?

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EMTB2MD

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Hello everyone,
Does the max number of hours an intern is allowed to work include on-call? How many people out there find themselves working more than the max? the law states that interns are limited to 80 work hours per week (averaged over 4 weeks), no more than 30 hours straight and must have 1 day off with no duties per week.

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Yes it includes on call and its 80 hrs/week averaged on a monthly basis so you can work 100 one week and 60 the next (although usually its more consistently 80 hrs a week).

Are you asking if med students follow intern schedules? Or are you meaning to try to address this to interns? If so, you should request to have this moved to general residency.
 
Hello everyone,
Does the max number of hours an intern is allowed to work include on-call? How many people out there find themselves working more than the max? the law states that interns are limited to 80 work hours per week (averaged over 4 weeks), no more than 30 hours straight and must have 1 day off with no duties per week.


Keep in mind that "on call" as an intern usually means running around the hospital and doing stuff - not sleeping and waiting for your pager to go off!!
 
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the law states that interns are limited to 80 work hours per week (averaged over 4 weeks), no more than 30 hours straight and must have 1 day off with no duties per week.

it's not law, although i wish it were, then there'd be a whole lot of suckers in jail right now.
 
Hello everyone,
Does the max number of hours an intern is allowed to work include on-call? How many people out there find themselves working more than the max? the law states that interns are limited to 80 work hours per week (averaged over 4 weeks), no more than 30 hours straight and must have 1 day off with no duties per week.

As long as you are in house, those hours count as work hours. Call from home doesn't count.
 
Hello everyone,
Does the max number of hours an intern is allowed to work include on-call? How many people out there find themselves working more than the max? the law states that interns are limited to 80 work hours per week (averaged over 4 weeks), no more than 30 hours straight and must have 1 day off with no duties per week.

As long as you are in house, those hours count as work hours. Call from home doesn't count.

Except that you cannot be on home call for your 1 day off per week (averaged over four weeks)

Ed
 
Keep in mind that "on call" as an intern usually means running around the hospital and doing stuff - not sleeping and waiting for your pager to go off!!

That's not necessarily true. I am doing prelim medicine at a smaller community hospital. My first night on call ever I got 6 hours of un-interrupted sleep from midnight to 6am. I routinely ask the nurses what they need around midnight and then go to sleep. Unless there's an incident or admission I rarely get paged after that.

Once I was unpaged from 10pm to 7am. Not saying that this happens all the time but it's nice.

Plus, we have CPOE so it's great for plopping in that little Ambien or restraint order.
 
That's not necessarily true. I am doing prelim medicine at a smaller community hospital. My first night on call ever I got 6 hours of un-interrupted sleep from midnight to 6am. I routinely ask the nurses what they need around midnight and then go to sleep. Unless there's an incident or admission I rarely get paged after that.

Once I was unpaged from 10pm to 7am. Not saying that this happens all the time but it's nice.

Plus, we have CPOE so it's great for plopping in that little Ambien or restraint order.

where is this program?!? Are there any openings?
 
My program is at a very busy hospital with tons of admissions, so we are usually capped for admissions early in the day and are done seeing and staffing all new admits by about 10 pm (the rest of the admits go to the B-service). After that, I usually start working on my progress notes for the next day (skeleton notes, which are basically an outline that I can fill in pretty quickly the next am) and work on revising my sign-out for the next day. There's a nursing shift change from 11-11:30 pm, so you get a lot of pages between 11-12. At around midnight, it quiets down and I head to bed. The nurses are pretty good about not calling for stupid things. I can handle most pages from my call room and go right back to sleep. The only time I really need to leave the room is if a patient is crashing or there is a CPR.
 
Plus, we have CPOE so it's great for plopping in that little Ambien or restraint order.

Restraint order for you or the patient? :D

A good way to minimize silly calls is if you also let the nurses and techs know you round the floors every two hours (and do it!) - they tend to hold the small stuff because they know you're coming around soon, and - surprise! - a lot of times they actually solve it before you actually get there. Of course this is only useful if you're in a high volume rotation - if you get a lot of downtime this will only break up those prized hours of sleep...
 
that the 80 work rule is violated in many programs. intern year is still intern year and you are a workaholic. period. i know our ortho program violates it. but our general surgery and medicine ones don't. but i've talked to people in other programs where no one keeps track. and so you're kind a screwed.....
 
that the 80 work rule is violated in many programs. intern year is still intern year and you are a workaholic. period. i know our ortho program violates it. but our general surgery and medicine ones don't. but i've talked to people in other programs where no one keeps track. and so you're kind a screwed.....

The age of violating the 80 hour limit is rapidly fading. Programs that do this will get caught, and will lose accreditation. Lots of people like to talk about how hard the year is, and to claim that they violate hours all the time...not usually true....especially when you here things like "we don't keep track". Well, they HAVE to keep track. Somebody has to log the hours in, and when evaluated, they have to show how they keep track. And, it will be verified by looking at things like what time your charts were signed, and comparing them to your work hours log. So, when people tell you this they are either exaggerating to seem cool, uninformed, or at a program that will not be around for long.

Many, if not most, programs still have problems with all the rules (which go far beyond the 80 hour limit, which is actually not where most programs fail). However, the crackdown is coming, and ALL programs that expect to be around next year are addressing these issues.

But, future interns, do not rest easy. Even following the work hours regs to the letter still results in a very long, difficult year, not to mention all the years of residency.
 
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The age of violating the 80 hour limit is rapidly fading. Programs that do this will get caught, and will lose accreditation.

Hey, there itchy butt! Cite your evidence. And I don't buy the ACGME's propaganda. I think you may be a bit naive, which is not necessarily a bad thing, at least compared to an old jaded resident. But do keep your eyes open and watch your back. Your program may be very good, as is mine, but there are others who are not.

The age of violating the 80 hour rule is a function of the malignancy of the program, how closely they are being watched and the desire of the program to follow the rules, v. the hospital's desire to make money. No desire = half hearted to no effort to follow the 80 hour rules.

There are an increased number of programs that ARE following the rules. But there remain many, many programs that are not and will not until they are up for RRC reviews or they get caught, if they get caught. Will the site visitor review charts and compare them against resident duty hours? How, this is an incredibly labor intensive thing to do. Further, if you report 14 hours on, 10 hours off, which 14 were you actually on? I don't think looking at charts for times of orders or PN/H&Ps will validate a report. Besides, you remember which patients you admitted, rounded, did procedures on, delivered on August 23, 2005? Any consolidated record of that in your hospital?

You make a blanket statement "Lots of people like to talk about how hard the year is, and to claim that they violate hours all the time...not usually true....especially when you here things like "we don't keep track".

Programs who willfully violate the rules do so with full knowledge of the tracking documents.

IF one is in such a program and if one is honest in reporting rules violations, the conversation between the resident in question and the chief or PD might go something like this:
"John, we've noticed in your hours reporting that you are not as efficient as you could be which is causing you to work more than 30 hours on duty to get your work done. Perhaps we need to put you on probation so you can learn to be more efficient. Of course you know if you do get put on probation, it will mean repeating your intern year, so why don't you 'learn' to be a bit more efficient and work just the 24+6 and make sure that you are efficient enough to get your 10 hours off and 1 in 7. IF you can do that, we'll all be happy."

John of course talks to Sean who says, yeah, I work 96-100 hours but the sheets say 80 because I've heard they do that.

This type of coersion is not uncommon as was recently reported by a research group at Harvard who prospectively followed med students through residency. This study of 2700 interns and residents, sponsored by the Brigham and Womens IRB, reported last fall that there was widespread substantial underreporting of hours as recently as July-August 2006.

While there are many programs that are grudgingly coming into compliance, there remain many, many more who are not and will lie to cover their tracks. In this day and age, there remain attending faculty who disagree with the work hour rules and all of the accumulated military and civilian research over the past century that demonstrate humans can do without adequate interval sleep any more than they can do without adequate interval nutrition and bodily waste disposal. To me this is incredible. As an FAA aeromedical examiner, a significan portion of the flight surgeon's training sessions are devoted to cockpit fatigue and sleep deprivation in evaluating pilot errors. This, folks, is not rocket science.

Writing down your hours on a form that goes to the program director who can then individually meet with the problem residents and suggest it is an individual problem and not an institution problem with a clear threat that if you report honestly again, you'll be booted from the program will certainly clear up any resident misunderstanding on how to appropriately report hours.

I'd very much like to believe what you say, but where bucks and the hospital bottom line are at stake, there will always be some that will push the limits.

Choose your programs verrry carefully boys and girls.
 
80 hours a week is brutal, if you are being worked to that maximum.

I sometimes wonder when doctors got organized the earlier part of this decade and pushed for work hour limitations, why they didn't demand something closer to what normal people have had for the last 100 years or so. Why not 70 hours? Or 60 hours, which is about what other professionals work (when they are workaholics)?

I recently read an article in which which the first line said the work hours at a Volkswagen factory in Belgium were changed to 38 hours a week, in exchange for keeping the plant open. My thought was that the hours were being cut back in exchange for having more employees on the payroll. I WAS WRONG. The hours were in fact being increased, from something like 25 hours a week, which is what most people in Belgium work. To work 38 hours a week was unheard of, but a necessary step the government of Belgium was allowing to keep this plant open. :laugh:
 
I sometimes wonder when doctors got organized the earlier part of this decade and pushed for work hour limitations, why they didn't demand something closer to what normal people have had for the last 100 years or so. Why not 70 hours? Or 60 hours, which is about what other professionals work (when they are workaholics)?

What makes you think PHYSICIANS pushed for the work hour restrictions? While some were involved, the move was generated by the public and many physicians and residency programs were not in favor of the changes and still aren't.

I have long maintained that surgery could have been approved for more than 80 hours per week if the surgeons hadn't been stubborn and refused to see the changes coming down the pike - essentially they were forced into 80 hrs.

Besides, hospitals aren't stupid - if they restricted residency work hours to 60 per week, they would have to reduce patient census and either hire more residents to cover the patients or more PAs/NPs. Either option costs $$$ and they don't want to spend it.
 
In order to be well trained physicians, we need to log in hours and see many patients. If the work hours were cut even further, it would mean that we would finish residency with a lot less experience than physicians of the past. I would much rather work 80 hours a week than work 60 hours, but have to do an additional 1-2 years of residency to make up the difference.
 
In order to be well trained physicians, we need to log in hours and see many patients. If the work hours were cut even further, it would mean that we would finish residency with a lot less experience than physicians of the past. I would much rather work 80 hours a week than work 60 hours, but have to do an additional 1-2 years of residency to make up the difference.
Whereas I'd rather spend a few extra years getting trained than work 80+ hours a week.

I'm supposed to work a max of 56 hours/week (averaged out over 4 weeks) - I definitely work more than this, but probably only 65-70 hours even so. And yes, I under-reported the hours I work too, so it's a world wide thing.

The surgeons here (in the UK) aren't happy about the 56 hour thing either - and no one is happy about the proposed 48 hour week. 48 hours?! Damn European Working Time Directive!
 
I still think 80 hours is excessive. People who state that it will diminish education if further reduced, should take a closer look at what they learn during those extra hours. I personally have a hard time keeping my mind clear and learning anything when I am pushing so many hours. I feel like I am just doing busy work and not necessarily getting anything out of it. In fact, I feel totally exhausted to do the reading that I should be doing.

Although, I don't have personal experience, I don't think that the reduction of hours have led to a decrease in resident education- but I guess if you like retracting while trying to prop yourself in a compfortable position in an attempt to prevent falling into someone's peritoneal cavity is worthwhile for you...then it's ok.
 
Its bull and I think you can learn just as much in 60 hours as 80 hours since most of that time is spent doing crap anyhow not really learning anything that you can't learn in 60 hours.
 
Its bull and I think you can learn just as much in 60 hours as 80 hours since most of that time is spent doing crap anyhow not really learning anything that you can't learn in 60 hours.

Reducing the hours without fundamentally changing the nature of the process will (in my mind) reduce learning. The intern's day, from what I've seen, is already filled with too many mind-numbing hours of paperwork and scut. These hours are pointless from an educational standpoint, but contribute substantially to the hospital and attendings.

Reducing hours further without addressing this issue will only serve to cut out the remaining education hours. I would guess conference time and didactics would be the next to go, the clinic, and eventually all we would do during intern year is fill out endless stacks of forms and write for Tylenol on the floors.
 
In order to be well trained physicians, we need to log in hours and see many patients. If the work hours were cut even further, it would mean that we would finish residency with a lot less experience than physicians of the past. I would much rather work 80 hours a week than work 60 hours, but have to do an additional 1-2 years of residency to make up the difference.

Doctors in the rest of the world all seem to get their work done by coming in at 8 or 9 and leaving by 5 (including surgeons). America seems to be the only place where coming in at 5:30 each day like a chump is considered to be a generous educational opportunity. :laugh:
 
Doctors in the rest of the world all seem to get their work done by coming in at 8 or 9 and leaving by 5 (including surgeons). America seems to be the only place where coming in at 5:30 each day like a chump is considered to be a generous educational opportunity. :laugh:

Trouble is they DON'T get their work done...its simply pushed off until the next day (or the day after...). I saw this time and time again in Australia...5:00 pm, patient needs a pleurocentesis..., "no worries, we'll do it tomorrow" was often the response. Patients wait longer for surgeries and clinic appointments because the hours are shorter and not as much work gets done.
 
Interesting topic,

I work in the UK and i am due to start working in the USA (residency). I have previously worked in >80hour/week system.
both systems (more vs less hours) have their advantages and disadvantages. Whilst 9-5pm is fantastic, patients do get put off to the next day as rightly pointed out. Hospitals dont have funds and this is the biggest crisis facing the british health system. The crux however is, which system is safer. We talk about educational opportunities, turn overs, hospitals benefitting, blah blah blah. But the point is how many of us make mistakes because we are tired? How many put patients life in danger? i have personally made horrific errors resulting in near misses when i was tired and working 80+ hours and never made a mistake when it is 56 hours/week. How many would like to be treated- say appendicectomy by a tired surgical or anaesthetic resident on ourselves or a kith or a kin? I am sure we would want the best state of mental and physical well being of the doctors.
Driven by economical reasons isnt the way forward in improving patient care. I am sure many residents would still want to cut the crap and put their heads down and finish residency- but at what cost is the important question- surely deep down we all know there is a better way of doing internship and residency, whatever each ones answer is.
 
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