Mayo Clinic - DO preference?

[Ribonucleic Acid]

I was looking at the match stats for TCOM and noticed a neurosurgery match at Mayo Clinic in Florida a couple years ago. As someone interested in the field of neurosurgery, I took a look at Mayo's program. Currently, they're only showing three of their current residents (not sure how many they have total). Surprisingly, two of the three residents are DO's. I looked at the Minnesota location and all of their residents are MD's from relatively competitive schools. Am I missing something?

Also, way down the line with Step 1 becoming pass/fail, will applying to programs where TCOM students have matched be better (at all) than applying to others (starting there this fall)?

Meet Our Residents - Neurologic Surgery Residency (Florida) - Mayo Clinic College of Medicine & Science

Residents of the Neurologic Surgery Residency at Mayo Clinic in Florida come from across the U.S. and all over the world. Learn more about our current residents.

college.mayo.edu

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[AnatomyGrey12]

No Mayo doesn't have a DO preference lol. Both of those applicants were complete studs. Mayo just happens to be more open minded and generally after the best candidates, and if that happens to be a DO one year then so be it. The Minnesota campus has take a DO in Plastics, ortho, GS, and vascular in the past. There was an ENT match too last year but that might have also been the Florida campus, I don't remember.

No, having one TCOM grad in a program isn't going to help you later down the line, particularly in neurosurgery.

 

[slowthai]

No Mayo doesn't have a DO preference lol. Both of those applicants were complete studs. Mayo just happens to be more open minded and generally after the best candidates, and if that happens to be a DO one year then so be it. The Minnesota campus has take a DO in Plastics, ortho, GS, and vascular in the past. There was an ENT match too last year but that might have also been the Florida campus, I don't remember.

No, having one TCOM grad in a program is going to help you later down the line, particularly in neurosurgery.

Wait, are you saying it will help or it won't? If it will, can you elaborate on how?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Wait, are you saying it will help or it won't? If it will, can you elaborate on how?

Lol sorry, I meant it won't help.

 

[67552931811]

I was looking at the match stats for TCOM and noticed a neurosurgery match at Mayo Clinic in Florida a couple years ago. As someone interested in the field of neurosurgery, I took a look at Mayo's program. Currently, they're only showing three of their current residents (not sure how many they have total). Surprisingly, two of the three residents are DO's. I looked at the Minnesota location and all of their residents are MD's from relatively competitive schools. Am I missing something?

Also, way down the line with Step 1 becoming pass/fail, will applying to programs where TCOM students have matched be better (at all) than applying to others (starting there this fall)?

Meet Our Residents - Neurologic Surgery Residency (Florida) - Mayo Clinic College of Medicine & Science

Residents of the Neurologic Surgery Residency at Mayo Clinic in Florida come from across the U.S. and all over the world. Learn more about our current residents.

college.mayo.edu

Thats because that isn’t the real mayo dude. It’s mayo in name alone. REAL mayo is in minny, hence the competitive applicants on their roster

 

[Ribonucleic Acid]

No Mayo doesn't have a DO preference lol. Both of those applicants were complete studs. Mayo just happens to be more open minded and generally after the best candidates, and if that happens to be a DO one year then so be it. The Minnesota campus has take a DO in Plastics, ortho, GS, and vascular in the past. There was an ENT match too last year but that might have also been the Florida campus, I don't remember.

No, having one TCOM grad in a program isn't going to help you later down the line, particularly in neurosurgery.

Bear with me for a second as I grasp at some potentially sturdy straws. You have two applicants with similar stats, but one of them is from the slightly underrepresented school that a couple of your rocking ex-residents graduated from. You're telling me that, in your highly selective nature, there's no part of your mind that thinks maybe the trend will continue and this school is potentially pumping out some really high-quality candidates that thrive here?

Genuinely interested.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Bear with me for a second as I grasp at some potentially sturdy straws. You have two applicants with similar stats, but one of them is from the slightly underrepresented school that a couple of your rocking ex-residents graduated from. You're telling me that, in your highly selective nature, there's no part of your mind that thinks maybe the trend will continue and this school is potentially pumping out some really high-quality candidates that thrive here?

Genuinely interested.

No. Because the other candidate is likely from an MD school that you have much more extensive knowledge with, and stats are only one component of the equation.

Now if the applicant is a complete STUD who you really like, but is a DO and you are hesitant to take a DO again, it MIGHT ease your mind a bit knowing that the DO comes from the same school as your previous stud DO resident you had a few years ago.

But alas, the hypotheticals could lead you down some pretty crazy rabbit holes. I would not go to TCOM thinking that if you get an excellent app that the Mayo-Jax neurosurgery residency will be any less forgiving of your DO-ness because they once had a resident from TCOM.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Thats because that isn’t the real mayo dude.

Mayo's Florida campus...

When you ask for mayo, but they give you Miracle Whip...

 

[IsWhat]

Mayo takes the best, no matter what. It’s part of their DNA and it’s ultimately what makes them the best in so many specialties.

 

[Sardonix]

A couple things:

No Mayo doesn't have a DO preference lol. Both of those applicants were complete studs. Mayo just happens to be more open minded and generally after the best candidates, and if that happens to be a DO one year then so be it. The Minnesota campus has take a DO in Plastics, ortho, GS, and vascular in the past. There was an ENT match too last year but that might have also been the Florida campus, I don't remember.

No, having one TCOM grad in a program isn't going to help you later down the line, particularly in neurosurgery.

To reinforce this, having talked to a Mayo neurosurgeon, multiple orthopedic surgeons, a urology APD, and a plastics fellow, Mayo does indeed seem to care less about what your degree is (although there are still biases) so long as you are a stud. As an example, the neurosurgeon and plastics fellow were both IMG docs. The urology APD said the best person they had in their residency was a Caribbean grad.

Moral of the story here: your degree may not hurt you (as much) as it would in other places, but don't count on it being a boost in anyway. To get into any of the Mayo specialty residencies you really need to be a world class stud. What's more, sometimes you'll be competing with people that Mayo specifically recruited internationally and has been grooming with research for 1-2ys while they get their VISA and application in order. I've met a couple of these people and, in addition to being incredibly nice, their resumes and stories are SO impressive it's like they're a whole new class of human being let alone physician. Lastly, Mayo loves people already invested in their corporate culture so it's very common for them to recruit internally from their medical schools. A Mayo MD is probably the only degree that does have an objective bonus to it.

This whole sidebar doesn't necessarily apply as much to their primary care specialties, but that's another story.

Mayo's Florida campus...

When you ask for mayo, but they give you Miracle Whip...

Not to single this one comment out in particular, but I would advise anyone legitimately interested in a Mayo residency not rip on their non-Rochester campuses. Attendings, PDs, and admin have strived to make those places comparable centers for expertise. More often than not, they usually have friends or family working at those places so making fun of "Hurr durr Arizona or Florida lol" is a pretty convenient way to get black listed.

 

[InternistDO]

Not to single this one comment out in particular, but I would advise anyone legitimately interested in a Mayo residency not rip on their non-Rochester campuses. Attendings, PDs, and admin have strived to make those places comparable centers for expertise. More often than not, they usually have friends or family working at those places so making fun of "Hurr durr Arizona or Florida lol" is a pretty convenient way to get black listed.

I have no dog in this fight, and I can really only speak to the IM programs, but I think the concern with the non-Rochester Mayo hospitals is not that the hospitals themselves are bad or the clinical training is poor--it's just that the residency programs are substantially less prestigious than "real Mayo" in the sense of obtaining fellowships and the like afterwards. To pretend otherwise does a disservice to applicants considering those places who may think they have an "in" to Big Mayo.

If you peruse the program websites, people rarely do IM at Mayo-FL and then do fellowship in Rochester (or Harvard, or Penn, etc). They stay in-house or go to local programs. It does happen for some rockstars, but it is not a magic pipeline. Mayo-FL's IM program didn't even fill this year and had to SOAP 3 spots.

Like most IM programs at large hospitals, I'm sure the clinical training there creates perfectly competent doctors, so this discussion is more a reflection of the prestige-fest that is academic internal medicine rather than a real commentary on the training at Mayo-AZ/FL. That being said, until the system changes it's just something to keep in mind.

(And it should go without saying you shouldn't **** on other residency programs while interviewing, or really at any time except in these online discussions for applicants.)

 

[libertyyne]

Mayo Jacksonville is a new program. Thats why they are only showing three residents because thats all they have.
Programs that tend to show preference seem to have a resident from that particular school every year or every other year. Usually these are home programs that show preference to the affiliated medical school.


The relationship between schools and programs is somewhat complicated as a bad resident can leave a poor taste in the mouth of PDs, and you dont quite know the internal politics of a program.

That being said if a program has a DO that means they are open to DOs so that should be on your list for applying. There are not many Neurosurgery programs that have DOs on their rosters so you should absolutely apply to everyone of those and try to rotate at a few of those as well.


Mayo clinic arizona and Florida are not the same as Mayo main. And do not have the same world renown faculty nor do the programs have the same research or volume. They are programs that are new, are trying to do well, and are a gamble as you do not know what the training is going to be like, or how well trained the graduates are going to be.

If you look at Mayo Clinic roch neurosurgery , it seems like they have a preference for Mayo Medical school, Yale.

 

[Splenda88]

Anyone has Mayo IM roster in FL... I perused their website and could not find it.

 

[AlteredScale]

Anyone has Mayo IM roster in FL... I perused their website and could not find it.

Nope but based on FRIEDA 6% of their program is DO and 20 % is IMG. They have a total of 36 slots from PGY-1 to 3. So about 2 or 3 total.

From looking at previous match lists I think it's DO students from Nova are the ones matching there.

 

[Goro]

No Mayo doesn't have a DO preference lol. Both of those applicants were complete studs. Mayo just happens to be more open minded and generally after the best candidates, and if that happens to be a DO one year then so be it. The Minnesota campus has take a DO in Plastics, ortho, GS, and vascular in the past. There was an ENT match too last year but that might have also been the Florida campus, I don't remember.

No, having one TCOM grad in a program isn't going to help you later down the line, particularly in neurosurgery.

In my school's experience, once one gets a foot into door, it helps succeeding graduates do the same. It's the principle why schools serve as feeders; UG -med school, and then med school -> residencies.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

In my school's experience, once one gets a foot into door, it helps succeeding graduates do the same. It's the principle why schools serve as feeders; UG -med school, and then med school -> residencies.

While generally true a Mayo sub-specialty surgery program in Florida isn’t going to have a Texas DO school be a feeder.

Now TCOM will help with programs in Texas that have taken their grads before. This is seen in their general surgery matches.

 

[AlteredScale]

While generally true a Mayo sub-specialty surgery program in Florida isn’t going to have a Texas DO school be a feeder.

Now TCOM will help with programs in Texas that have taken their grads before. This is seen in their general surgery matches.

What's up with Mayo Clinic and Creighton trying to get a hold of places in AZ?

 

[libertyyne]

What's up with Mayo Clinic and Creighton trying to get a hold of places in AZ?

You need to keep growing, or you end up in a bad position when it comes to negotiations with insurers. First come the hospitals, and then come the residency positions.

 

[Scrubs101]

What's up with Mayo Clinic and Creighton trying to get a hold of places in AZ?

You need to keep growing, or you end up in a bad position when it comes to negotiations with insurers. First come the hospitals, and then come the residency positions.

Have y’all been to scottsdale? Its def the food.

southwest food and tons of well off patients, cant pass up on that

 

[DarkHorizon]

One of my classmates did her IM residency at Mayo Rochester. She then did a GI fellowship at one of the UCs. They take DOs. She was a stud.

 

[libertyyne]

Just to give some context, the AANS database has ABNS board certified members in it, it roughly contains 5000 neurosurgeons which is approximately all of the north American neurosurgeons that have gone through ACGME training.
There are only 10 DOs in that database, meaning there were only 10 DOs who went through ACGME neurosurgical training. There were no Mayo grads in that list. The traditionally ACGME programs have rarely in the past accepted DO students. I dont know what the future looks like though considering the merger.

 

[DNC127]

Over 10 DOs rotated at Mayo this year for ortho and nobody matched and most ranked them 1.

my anecdotal "evidence"

 

[Scrubs101]

Over 10 DOs rotated at Mayo this year for ortho and nobody matched and most ranked them 1.

my anecdotal "evidence"

That ortho excel sheet on reddit was very telling, darn near every applicant that interviewed at mayo had them in their top 3 on their ranklist

 

[DNC127]

That ortho excel sheet on reddit was very telling, darn near every applicant that interviewed at mayo had them in their top 3 on their ranklist

Yup. Mayo was hot this year for ortho. Everyone wanted mayo.

 

[Sardonix]

Yup. Mayo was hot this year for ortho. Everyone wanted mayo.

Weird, is COVID-19 affecting the condiment supply chain now?

*BADUM-TSSSSSSSSS

 

[xerei]

the NYCOM student who matched Mayo (yes, Rochester) for vascular surgery took a year off and has more publications than most junior faculty members at academic institutions. 1) if you're a stud, you're a stud. 2) it's easy to find exceptions, it's hard to be an exception

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

the NYCOM student who matched Mayo (yes, Rochester) for vascular surgery took a year off and has more publications than most junior faculty members at academic institutions. 1) if you're a stud, you're a stud. 2) it's easy to find exceptions, it's hard to be an exception

How many pubs?

 

[harrislakers123]

I was looking at the match stats for TCOM and noticed a neurosurgery match at Mayo Clinic in Florida a couple years ago. As someone interested in the field of neurosurgery, I took a look at Mayo's program. Currently, they're only showing three of their current residents (not sure how many they have total). Surprisingly, two of the three residents are DO's. I looked at the Minnesota location and all of their residents are MD's from relatively competitive schools. Am I missing something?

Also, way down the line with Step 1 becoming pass/fail, will applying to programs where TCOM students have matched be better (at all) than applying to others (starting there this fall)?

Meet Our Residents - Neurologic Surgery Residency (Florida) - Mayo Clinic College of Medicine & Science

Residents of the Neurologic Surgery Residency at Mayo Clinic in Florida come from across the U.S. and all over the world. Learn more about our current residents.

college.mayo.edu

Truly elite institutions and programs like many Mayo and Cleveland Clinic programs take the BEST candidates regardless of USMD/DO or even IMG! They have no inferiority complexes, or obsession with self perception/prestige. They know/understand that their brand transcends all!

 

[libertyyne]

How many pubs?

im curious as well cant quite find the resident roster for that particular program.

 

[xerei]

How many pubs?

that i can see on pubmed currently, 23 manuscripts

 

[Ttubule]

In my experience Mayo definitely takes a much more holistic view of applicants than other big name institutions (at least true of Rochester but I’m sure it’s a Mayo culture thing not limited to one campus). That being said, no matter how ridiculous this is, coming from an osteopathic school probably still gives you an uphill battle to fight. I think the fact that you have two DOs in NSGY at the Florida campus may speak more to it being a newer program than a DO preference. As others have said, I’m sure they’re both studs but there’s always a hesitation with newer programs, even when you have a name like Mayo behind them, when you don’t know what graduates have gone on to do. That can impact where highly competitive applicants rank a program.

I will say though, I disagree that having a graduate from your school at a program makes no difference. This is anecdotal but on one of my away rotations (not Mayo) an attending told me they often factor that in a little bit if they really liked their last resident from that school. Certainly isn’t likely to hurt you, at any rate.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

In my school's experience, once one gets a foot into door, it helps succeeding graduates do the same. It's the principle why schools serve as feeders; UG -med school, and then med school -> residencies.

The guy preceding me in my residency was number 2 in his class at my school. Never would raise his hand, always knew the answer. I definitely believe he was a factor in me matching at that program.
As far as Mayo Jax Neurosurg, I agree it's a program in the process of finding its feet and should continue to improve. It sure isnt Rochester. I have had 3 close family members treated at that tertiary facility , (Jax), and they definitely need to get their act together.

 

[Goro]

In my experience Mayo definitely takes a much more holistic view of applicants than other big name institutions (at least true of Rochester but I’m sure it’s a Mayo culture thing not limited to one campus). That being said, no matter how ridiculous this is, coming from an osteopathic school probably still gives you an uphill battle to fight. I think the fact that you have two DOs in NSGY at the Florida campus may speak more to it being a newer program than a DO preference. As others have said, I’m sure they’re both studs but there’s always a hesitation with newer programs, even when you have a name like Mayo behind them, when you don’t know what graduates have gone on to do. That can impact where highly competitive applicants rank a program.

I will say though, I disagree that having a graduate from your school at a program makes no difference. This is anecdotal but on one of my away rotations (not Mayo) an attending told me they often factor that in a little bit if they really liked their last resident from that school. Certainly isn’t likely to hurt you, at any rate.

In all my years on SDN, I've never heard of this angle before! We know that med school applicants are leery of brand new schools, for various valid reasons, but do new residencies indeed provoke a wariness? Even one in an uber-speciality? One with the Mayo name???

Wise med students and residents, what say you???

 

[libertyyne]

In all my years on SDN, I've never heard of this angle before! We know that med school applicants are leery of brand new schools, for various valid reasons, but do new residencies indeed provoke a wariness? Even one in an uber-speciality? One with the Mayo name???

Wise med students and residents, what say you???

Brand new residency for something like neurosurgery you never know. Will they have unusual demands for call? Will they have sufficient volume? There is no one to to tell you if the attendings are malignant. There is no one to tell you what the fellowship options are going to look like. What if the program loses accreditation? What if there is zero autonomy given to the residents and they do not come out prepared to operate.

People are risk averse especially if you are going to end up there for 7 years. So yes, people are wary of something even if it has the Mayo name attached to it. This will likely decrease with one class graduating.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

We know that med school applicants are leery of brand new schools, for various valid reasons, but do new residencies indeed provoke a wariness? Even one in an uber-speciality? One with the Mayo name???

Wise med students and residents, what say you???

Absolutely. Applicants to these specialties almost always rank the new programs low on the their list behind established programs. New programs are a gamble that some applicants don't want to take.

 

[Neopolymath]

In all my years on SDN, I've never heard of this angle before! We know that med school applicants are leery of brand new schools, for various valid reasons, but do new residencies indeed provoke a wariness? Even one in an uber-speciality? One with the Mayo name???

Wise med students and residents, what say you???

absolutely

 

[Ttubule]

In all my years on SDN, I've never heard of this angle before! We know that med school applicants are leery of brand new schools, for various valid reasons, but do new residencies indeed provoke a wariness? Even one in an uber-speciality? One with the Mayo name???

Wise med students and residents, what say you???

I’m not sure how/if it differs between specialties, but at least for orthopedics I interviewed at one newer program that I ended up ranking last. First and foremost that was because I just didn’t get a great vibe from the program but I definitely had some concerns about committing to a place where the infrastructure just wasn’t developed for research and where you have no idea what fellowship matches will look like (maybe a bigger deal for ortho where almost all of us do fellowship).
Granted, that place didn’t have the name recognition of Mayo, but I imagine most applicants would, like myself, move a place down when comparing it to somewhere with less uncertainty.

 

[Haxx]

Not to necrobump too hard here, but as a DO currently in a traditionally DO-friendly specialty (with IM intern year) at Mayo-MN, I've had excellent experiences and haven't encountered any red flag bias at all. I love it here, and think that if you're a good enough applicant, you can likely match into any specialty here.

 

[samac]

100% agree. At roughly 1/2 of my interviews the PDs said something along the lines of, “We have had great experience with residents from your school and that’s partly why we invited you.”

Just wanting to add to that. The program I matched at has a history of taking folks from my school, but not really other DO schools. Those before me established a connection and it can hold a lot of weight.

 

[Med16484]

Hi, was reading this thread for Mayo Jax's residency program and how it compares to the main Mayo, but I was wondering if anyone knows how Mayo Jax compares to MN Mayo for medical school (2+2 vs 4 years)

 

[HockeyGuy2772]

Over 10 DOs rotated at Mayo this year for ortho and nobody matched and most ranked them 1.

my anecdotal "evidence"

Of these 10 DOs, do you know if any of them got docs to write letters on their behalf?
My question stems from the idea of rotating at a place that doesnt usually take DOs but getting good letters to hold weight during application season for other DO friendly programs. Is that a waste of time?

 

[DNC127]

Of these 10 DOs, do you know if any of them got docs to write letters on their behalf?
My question stems from the idea of rotating at a place that doesnt usually take DOs but getting good letters to hold weight during application season for other DO friendly programs. Is that a waste of time?

I did this. See my thread for info on how it went