Mayo derm residency more surgical experience?

[xadmin]

Hi guys, I was reading the curriculum on Mayo's website and it seems that as a 1st and 2nd year, you get a few months of surgical experience and in your third year, you get a whole year of weekly surgical exposure as well. That seems really cool. Is this large surgical exposure common to most programs or is this something only found at Mayo?

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[username456789]

Hi guys, I was reading the curriculum on Mayo's website and it seems that as a 1st and 2nd year, you get a few months of surgical experience and in your third year, you get a whole year of weekly surgical exposure as well. That seems really cool. Is this large surgical exposure common to most programs or is this something only found at Mayo?

In my program, I perform surgery half a day every week all three years. This does not include the several weeks each year of elective time with our Mohs surgeons. I would consider my program very average in this regard.

 

[PatsyStone]

Hi guys, I was reading the curriculum on Mayo's website and it seems that as a 1st and 2nd year, you get a few months of surgical experience and in your third year, you get a whole year of weekly surgical exposure as well. That seems really cool. Is this large surgical exposure common to most programs or is this something only found at Mayo?

Any program with a VA will have a lot of surgical volume AND the opportunity to develop independence (programs with county hospitals will also have a lot of procedural exposure). Programs with Mohs surgeons without procedural fellows, or at least more Mohs attending than fellows, will also have good surgical exposure.

 

[deltamed]

Hi guys, I was reading the curriculum on Mayo's website and it seems that as a 1st and 2nd year, you get a few months of surgical experience and in your third year, you get a whole year of weekly surgical exposure as well. That seems really cool. Is this large surgical exposure common to most programs or is this something only found at Mayo?

Sounds fairly typical. Definitely not on the high side for overall exposure. I'm assuming some surgical experience in years 1 and 2 is not listed or it would probably be less than usual.


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[xadmin]

http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/residenci...gy/dermatology-residency-minnesota/curriculum

So this surgical exposure experience in the training program is similar to other programs as well? They also mentioned that senior residents have independent clinics - so in other programs are you constantly under the supervision of your attendings and are not as autonomous?

 

[deltamed]

http://www.mayo.edu/msgme/residenci...gy/dermatology-residency-minnesota/curriculum

So this surgical exposure experience in the training program is similar to other programs as well? They also mentioned that senior residents have independent clinics - so in other programs are you constantly under the supervision of your attendings and are not as autonomous?

Im not sure why you seem to be asking the same question over again. Some programs are weaker and some stronger surgically but that surgical curriculum seems pretty typical from my experience not "out of the ordinary" for a derm program. And many/most senior residents will have clinics with a fair amount of independence, especially at places like the VA.


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[Tamahawk]

Hi guys, I was reading the curriculum on Mayo's website and it seems that as a 1st and 2nd year, you get a few months of surgical experience and in your third year, you get a whole year of weekly surgical exposure as well. That seems really cool. Is this large surgical exposure common to most programs or is this something only found at Mayo?

Yes, the Mayo program is very surgery heavy. In terms of ACGME case logs, the program's residents are in the 95th percentile in most surgical procedures. However, there is very minimal cosmetics (other than lasers). The reason for the heavy surgical exposure is largely based on the fact that there are 5 full time Mohs surgeons (and 1 part time).

 

[deltamed]

Yes, the Mayo program is very surgery heavy. In terms of ACGME case logs, the program's residents are in the 95th percentile in most surgical procedures. However, there is very minimal cosmetics (other than lasers). The reason for the heavy surgical exposure is largely based on the fact that there are 5 full time Mohs surgeons (and 1 part time).

Out of curiosity is there some sort of way to see where ACGME case logs lay on the bellcurve?

When I was a resident (and given this was when case logs were just being piloted) the case minimums were so pitifully low that I imagine the true number of cases you did varied wildly with how many you actually bothered to log. Maybe residents are better at logging everything now? but back then there was no way I logged even half the procedures I did.


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[asmallchild]

Out of curiosity is there some sort of way to see where ACGME case logs lay on the bellcurve?

When I was a resident (and given this was when case logs were just being piloted) the case minimums were so pitifully low that I imagine the true number of cases you did varied wildly with how many you actually bothered to log. Maybe residents are better at logging everything now? but back then there was no way I logged even half the procedures I did.


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I don't think they're very accurate to this day. Most residents just fill out the pitiful number needed to satisfy the minimum and stop logging once they meet the number. (For most programs, you should meet the entire residency minimum after your first year)

 

[username456789]

I haven't logged a surgery case in ~12 months.

 

[Tamahawk]

I don't think they're very accurate to this day. Most residents just fill out the pitiful number needed to satisfy the minimum and stop logging once they meet the number. (For most programs, you should meet the entire residency minimum after your first year)

I agree that the numbers are probably not accurate for every program because programs vary in how much they enforce data entry, but unfortunately there's not another data source I'm aware of to compare surgical experience across residencies, so we have to use the objective data that exists. While one could argue with the percentile for residency, the fact remains that it is a surgery heavy program. Their Mohs fellows also routinely perform over 1500 Mohs cases and recons, in addition to a few hundred excisions, vein surgeries and other random procedures; these data would be easier to compare across programs because the fellowship case logs are more accurately recorded (since all fellows need this for admission into the Mohs college). There are certainly other programs with a lot of surgical experience as well...this isn't a pissing contest. Just wanted to address the fact that it is not an average surgical volume type of place.

I haven't logged a surgery case in ~12 months.

lol. You might want to get on that.

 

[username456789]

lol. You might want to get on that.

I met my minimums a while ago. There is no actual incentive to continue logging any of those.

 

[deltamed]

I agree that the numbers are probably not accurate for every program because programs vary in how much they enforce data entry, but unfortunately there's not another data source I'm aware of to compare surgical experience across residencies, so we have to use the objective data that exists. While one could argue with the percentile for residency, the fact remains that it is a surgery heavy program. Their Mohs fellows also routinely perform over 1500 Mohs cases and recons, in addition to a few hundred excisions, vein surgeries and other random procedures; these data would be easier to compare across programs because the fellowship case logs are more accurately recorded (since all fellows need this for admission into the Mohs college). There are certainly other programs with a lot of surgical experience as well...this isn't a pissing contest. Just wanted to address the fact that it is not an average surgical volume type of place.



lol. You might want to get on that.

I'm not going to dispute that mayo is a higher-than-average place for derm residents to get surgical volume since I personally dont know the ins/outs of the program (aside from seeing they have to wear suits every day when I interviewed!).

I do want to point out to applicants that having alot of mohs surgeons and a large fellowship can actually be a downside. The program where I trained had many more mohs attendings and fellows than even Mayo, and it actually meant the residents got fewer of the big/complex cases since the fellows took them.


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[xadmin]

I'm not going to dispute that mayo is a higher-than-average place for derm residents to get surgical volume since I personally dont know the ins/outs of the program (aside from seeing they have to wear suits every day when I interviewed!).

I do want to point out to applicants that having alot of mohs surgeons and a large fellowship can actually be a downside. The program where I trained had many more mohs attendings and fellows than even Mayo, and it actually meant the residents got fewer of the big/complex cases since the fellows took them.


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Thanks, that is good to know. What is your thought on a large derm residency class size , >4 vs <4? Do you still have access to the same education support?

 

[Slack3r]

Is this the Mayo mothership or Mayo Scottsdale?

 

[deltamed]

Is this the Mayo mothership or Mayo Scottsdale?

Im assuming mayo rochester since scottsdale is a smaller program.


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