Mayo vs. Penn vs. Vandy

[docjr]

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I'm having trouble figuring out how to rank these three programs. I really liked some things about each of them. Here are the pros and cons as I see them:

Mayo:
Pros ? Great cards fellowship (like half of the rest of you, that?s what I?m planning to do); they take 4-5 of their own residents per year. Great teaching, facilities and research. Friendly people.
Cons ? Rochester, MN (?nuff said). The town sucks (except for cost of living). No ?normal? ER experience, limited HIV.

Penn:
Pros ? Probably best overall reputation of the group. Good patient diversity among three hospitals. Great research funding (#3 for DOM nationally, I think). Philadelphia is the best city of the three.
Cons ? Cardiology program is good but not great. Don?t tend to match people to high powered institutions for cards fellowship. Facilities (esp. computer system) not as great as the other two.

Vandy:
Pros ? Nice place to work. Awesome computer system. Very livable, affordable city with NHL hockey (admittedly a minor point). Good research opportunities. Good teaching.
Cons ? Cards fellowship least strong of the three. Don?t recall the fellowship match statistics off the top of my head (Any help there would be appreciated). Relationship with their major cardiac hospital tenuous.

My major criteria are (in order)
1. Fellowship placement (including strength of programs residents match at, and strength of their own program)
2. (really a tie for #1) Clinical training (including patient population, autonomy, teaching, strength and attitude of other residents, facilities)
3. Research opportunities
4. Location (culture/size, cost of living, etc.)

Any advice would be appreciated!

 

[Southern Hick]

errr...you get the Flyers in Philly...plus everything else, including the phillies, eagles (yes, those chokers, but that's another day on another thread), and so forth...


my personal opinion...penn above the other 2 easily. you have to ask yourself why you want more or less a guaranteed top shelf cards fellowship...not worth the hell in rocherster, mn. sure, it ain't bad to get one down the road, but it's probably most important if you think you'll be an academic/researcher/etc. otherwise, if you want to go into private practice, then i would say that it won't make a big difference, esp coming from penn or vandy.

 

[Seanmd]

Mayo Clinic: 50 residents last year, 4 matched into cardiology, and only 1 matched into Mayo cardiology. Not too impressive.

Although Mayo Clinic may be very reputable, I think that the training would be mediocre based on patient base. I am assuming that you do not see too many TB or HIV cases in Rochester ... only an assumption though. Honestly, the best training would be at a reputable institution in the inner city (eg. Penn) That's only my opinion, though.

Sean

 

[docjr]

Originally posted by Seanmd
Mayo Clinic: 50 residents last year, 4 matched into cardiology, and only 1 matched into Mayo cardiology. Not too impressive.

Sean

Those aren't exactly the numbers that I heard for Mayo this past year. Not counting the people who short-tracked into cards, I think there were eight people who applied for cards, and seven matched (including 1 at Mayo, 1 at Texas Heart, and 1 at Barnes). The one guy who didn't match apparently "didn't apply to enough programs" - I hear that there's a lot of that going around - but scrambled successfully. Then there were three folks who short tracked into cards at Mayo.

The info I have on Penn shows that there were six people who matched (I'm not sure how many did not match) for cards. The two who stayed at Penn seemed to fare the best. One resident was listed as starting his fellowship in 2004. I'm not sure why.

At Vandy, there were apparently eight who applied, six of whom matched (including 2 at Vandy, 1 at Emory, 1 at Cleveland Clinic, 1 at Barnes, 1 at South Carolina). The two who didn't match again, apparently "didn't apply to enough programs".

 

[docjr]

Originally posted by Seanmd

I am assuming that you do not see too many TB or HIV cases in Rochester ... only an assumption though. Honestly, the best training would be at a reputable institution in the inner city (eg. Penn) That's only my opinion, though.

Sean

The lack of HIV, TB, and other diseases common to inner cities is definately a drawback, as is the lack of a normal ER experience.

As far as Philly goes, don't forget the cheesesteak - always a plus for future cardiologists.

 

[Seanmd]

My fault ... I was referring to the 2002-2003 class. I don't think that they published the most recent fellowships for the 2003-2004 class, but I heard as well that they did well this year.

Not to sound too immature ... but I think it comes down to this ... if you're single, then Penn or Vandy ... if you're married, then Mayo. I think lifestyle may be an issue in Rochester, MN, unfortunately.

Sean

 

[invitro]

Hey guys-

What does SHORT-TRACK mean for cardiology? Does only Mayo offer it?
Does that mean you are have a cards spot coming in as you start your intern year?

thanks.

 

[docjr]

Short-tracking, aka the ABIM Research Pathway, basically means that you skip the third year of IM residency, and do research for a couple of years, some of which counts towards fellowship as well. You can do it in any specialty. Different programs call it by different names - e.g. Physician-Scientist pathway, Clinical Investigator Pathway, etc. Usually people who apply are M.D./Ph.D.s. Hope that helps.

 

[docjr]

OK, say we drop Mayo down a notch for the sake of discussion. What do you guys see as the advantages/disadvantages of going to Penn vs. Vandy?

 

[invitro]

Okay, I guess I will ask my REAL question.

I am a US MD student (2nd year) I have one clinical pub (ortho) and one research citation (molecular bio). I am doing reasonably well in courses...hopefully should get AOA.
School is Borderline (GWU).

I REALLY want to go to one of the mayo (rochester/tucson/jacksonville) for medicine.....how hard is it for a US MD to get in?

What board scores would be good? (is 220 enough?)

Also really interested in a cards fellowship.

Thanx.

 

[jerseyboy]

I would aim for a 230, your chances would be much better. But then again, if the rest of your application is strong, your Step 1 score might not matter as much.

 

[docjr]

Originally posted by invitro
Okay, I guess I will ask my REAL question.

I am a US MD student (2nd year) I have one clinical pub (ortho) and one research citation (molecular bio). I am doing reasonably well in courses...hopefully should get AOA.
School is Borderline (GWU).

I REALLY want to go to one of the mayo (rochester/tucson/jacksonville) for medicine.....how hard is it for a US MD to get in?

What board scores would be good? (is 220 enough?)

Also really interested in a cards fellowship.

Since it's still relatively early in your medical school career, I think the best advice would be to focus on continuing to do well in school - particularly in your clinical rotations next year. Getting Honors in medicine will definitely be a plus. But then, quite a few people go into their third year thinking they want to do one thing, and discover that they really love something else entirely.

As far as Step 1 goes, I'd just try to do as well as possible (I assume you haven't taken it yet). Right now, I believe the mean is around 215 with a SD of about 20 - those numbers are just off the top of my head. I'd try to beat the mean (~ high 220s), but if you can do better than that, it certainly wouldn't hurt you.

Medicine is, as you may know, a relatively non-competitive specialty. Being a US MD is definitely an asset. I think it's a little too early to start worrying about AOA now. Research experience is great, but certainly not a prerequisite. Cards, on the other hand, is very competitive, so securing a strong residency spot is the first step on the path to fellowship.

You don't seem to be geographically limited in your residency choices, so I wouldn't limit yourself too much in the programs to which you apply. The Mayo programs are very good, but there are others that are just as good if not better. There are a lot of really outstanding programs out there, don't be intimidated by them. The worst they can do is say no.

 

[invitro]

thanks for the reply, jerseyboy. Are you a IM resident?

 

[Thewonderer]

The bottomline is that unless you are aiming for hard-core academic faculty position in the future at NIH, Harvard, Hopkins, Penn, etc., why do you care about fellowship placement at a high-power place? Any cards fellowship is hard to get.

Most people will not go into academic medicine. The vast majority of people who are fully trained in interventional cardiology will be throwing millions of dollars away if they opt for academia instead of private practice. but of course, most people will go on interview circuits and go on and on about their love for academia when every residency program knows that they have trouble keeping ANY of their EP fellows for a research career.

Furthermore, when will you not see enough patients at any academic, tertiary care center? I am a little turned off by my classmates who are nicky picky and say that U of Washington might not be big name enough or Penn/Thomas Jefferson/Temple might not have enough pt loads because there are too many tertiary centers dividing up the pts among them. This thing is beginning to sound absurb. It is like, "I want a medical center that will give me research, has a VA, a county hospital and a top-notch private, tertiary care center, but I cannot spend too much time in the VA because I want to see people who are not veterans. Spending one extrac month at the VA will be detrimental to my future 40 years of career as an academic GI doc. At the same time, I need to be careful so I can see the bread-butter cases at the county but exposure to fascinating cases at the tertiary care center is absolutely essential, etc. etc. etc."

Lastly, when has happiness become the last of people's concern?

 

[docjr]

Originally posted by Thewonderer
The bottomline is that unless you are aiming for hard-core academic faculty position in the future at NIH, Harvard, Hopkins, Penn, etc., why do you care about fellowship placement at a high-power place? Any cards fellowship is hard to get.

Most people will not go into academic medicine. The vast majority of people who are fully trained in interventional cardiology will be throwing millions of dollars away if they opt for academia instead of private practice. but of course, most people will go on interview circuits and go on and on about their love for academia when every residency program knows that they have trouble keeping ANY of their EP fellows for a research career.

Furthermore, when will you not see enough patients at any academic, tertiary care center? I am a little turned off by my classmates who are nit picky and say that U of Washington might not be big name enough or Penn/Thomas Jefferson/Temple might not have enough pt loads because there are too many tertiary centers dividing up the pts among them. This thing is beginning to sound absurd. It is like, "I want a medical center that will give me research, has a VA, a county hospital and a top-notch private, tertiary care center, but I cannot spend too much time in the VA because I want to see people who are not veterans. Spending one extrac month at the VA will be detrimental to my future 40 years of career as an academic GI doc. At the same time, I need to be careful so I can see the bread-butter cases at the county but exposure to fascinating cases at the tertiary care center is absolutely essential, etc. etc. etc."

Thanks. You're right of course, that any cards fellowship is hard to get, and I'd be happy to do one anywhere if the alternative were not to do it at all. You're also right that most people don't go into academic medicine, and that you can make a lot more money in private practice. But I don't know if what's right for most people is necessarily right for me. I want to keep my options open, and while I may not devote the rest of my life to it, the thought of teaching the next generation of physicians seems pretty cool at the moment.

The reason "high-powered" places are "high-powered" is that they offer things that aren't necessarily available everywhere else. Bottom line, you only get one chance to do residency and fellowship. Why not try to learn as much as you can from the best teachers that you can find?

Lastly, when has happiness become the last of people's concern?

I'm really not sure where you're coming from with that comment. It's not like there is one universal formula for happiness. Some people will only be happy if they're living in a particular city. Others would be unhappy if they don't have opportunities for international health electives, or if they don't get to work with a certain patient population. Still others will be most happy if they don?t have call more than q5, or if they're able to obtain a particular fellowship. No program is perfect, and they all involve some trade-offs.

I explained what I'm looking for in a residency program (i.e., what will make me happy). If that's not what you're looking for, fine. I?m in the same boat everybody else is, trying to make the best choices I can given the options available to me. I?ve asked for some help in analyzing those choices, because, well, that?s what this board is for. The truth is, I'm pretty sure I'll be happy wherever I end up.

So anyway, thanks to everyone who?s responded.

 

[ID4me]

Mayo and Penn carry more prestige and will get you better fellowships and academic appointments. But if you want to be a good doctor, go to Vanderbilt - their training is outstanding.