GandalfTheWhite

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So I have seen multiple threads with a not-so-clearcut consensus about the necessity of doing a fellowship where opinions range from absolute must to differentiate ourselves from CRNAs to the year being a year of lost salary and potential compounded wealth, to the more moderate answer of doing fellowship if there is an interest in the subject matter.

Which leads me to wonder whether there are other avenues to "differentiate oneself" by pursuing an E-MBA or traditional MBA, with the goal of being on either hospital committees or in administration itself. We have seen that many of the issues arising from within administration seems to be from leadership with non-medical backgrounds, so I figure it may become imperative to have more physician led administrative leadership.

Anyone with experience doing an MBA/eMBA care to weigh in?
 

FFP

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Unless you're already in a leadership position, I have a feeling they will tell you to stick your MBA you know where. So I would talk to my department chief first.

Nobody cares about physician-led administrative leadership, especially not the nurse-led administrative leaderships.
 
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kidthor

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I wouldn't do an MBA immediately after residency as a fellowship-alternative. It may later make sense if you're in academia for a couple of years and they'll pay for you to do it on nights/weekends (common if you get a tuition benefit - especially if you do it in house). Then it's free, you're in the system, and you can get the most out of it personally and professionally. Many department chairs have done exactly this.

Also don't ever try to "differentiate oneself" for the sake of it. You're a doctor - you're done with differentiating yourself from the pack. This is it. You're here.

Just do what you love.
 
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BLADEMDA

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For most Anesthesiologists the cardiac fellowship year makes more fiscal sense than the MBA. Cardiac is in demand across the USA as more centers want fellowship trained TEE testamur level anesthesiologists on staff.
 
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GandalfTheWhite

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Unless you're already in a leadership position, I have a feeling they will tell you to stick your MBA you know where. So I would talk to my department chief first.

Nobody cares about physician-led administrative leadership, especially not the nurse-led administrative leaderships.
so perhaps we should slowly edge our way in? Cant complain that we dont have any real weight when we dont aim to take these positions. Probably a better time now than before seeing how badly these PE and nurse-led administrations have screwed the pooch with respect to COVID.

I wouldn't do an MBA immediately after residency as a fellowship-alternative. It may later make sense if you're in academia for a couple of years and they'll pay for you to do it on nights/weekends (common if you get a tuition benefit - especially if you do it in house). Then it's free, you're in the system, and you can get the most out of it personally and professionally. Many department chairs have done exactly this.

Also don't ever try to "differentiate oneself" for the sake of it. You're a doctor - you're done with differentiating yourself from the pack. This is it. You're here.

Just do what you love.
I appreciate and agree with the sentiment that I am already differentiated from the pack. Its more-so my intention for vertical mobility within leadership positions. I will definitely look into what you said, although I find academia to be a bit of a circle jerk. Hopefully the same idea applies towards community hospitals and practice.

For most Anesthesiologists the cardiac fellowship year makes more fiscal sense than the MBA. Cardiac is in demand across the USA as more centers want fellowship trained TEE testamur level anesthesiologists on staff.
You dont think that we are approaching saturation in the market with all these cardiac fellows graduating in record numbers? Personally, I'm seeing that most of the increase in compensation is due to an increased call burden for cardiac anesthesiologists.
 

JiPo

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MBA costs $80k a year, and it is 2 years. Why not something like this if your goal is to pad your CV for vertical mobility? At least it is 1 year, and you get paid a fellow salary. Still better than making $0 and paying $80k for 2 years.


Edited for MBA tuition. I thought it only costs 45k a year, but apparently, Wharton MBA is $80k a year. Wow....
 

IMGASMD

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MBA costs $80k a year, and it is 2 years. Why not something like this if your goal is to pad your CV for vertical mobility? At least it is 1 year, and you get paid a fellow salary. Still better than making $0 and paying $80k for 2 years.


Edited for MBA tuition. I thought it only costs 45k a year, but apparently, Wharton MBA is $80k a year. Wow....
I would choose an MBA that’s generalizable than just in periop medicine.
 

JiPo

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I would choose an MBA that’s generalizable than just in periop medicine.
That is true. But financially, it is a huge difference.
MBA = -$160k (for 2 years)
That fellowship = 70k + 350k attending salary in 2nd year = + $420k.

Unless someone is paying for MBA, that's a difference of $580k in 2 years! I wouldn't do either, but another thing to factor in.
 

GandalfTheWhite

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I would choose an MBA that’s generalizable than just in periop medicine.
Agreed. This whole periop medicine or periop surgical home is a pile of garbage.

Don’t join the dark side. From the limited leadership positions I’ve had it’s clear to me that the vast majority of administrators are currupt.
BuT tHe MiLlIoN dOlLaR sAlArY!!!! I'm not saying the money isnt a factor, but I think having anesthesiologists in key leadership positions can help further our goals and strengthen the department as a whole.

That is true. But financially, it is a huge difference.
MBA = -$160k (for 2 years)
That fellowship = 70k + 350k attending salary in 2nd year = + $420k.

Unless someone is paying for MBA, that's a difference of $580k in 2 years! I wouldn't do either, but another thing to factor in.
In those relative terms, you still lose out on 300K doing a fellowship at all.
Looking at e-MBAs, you dont really quit your work, but the courses are done online with in person workshops and classes on the weekend. So you really wouldnt lose out on your salary at all, barring the lost weekend call once or twice a month. And I believe most hospitals pay for courses like these.

Would suck to do an MBA only later to find out you’d rather gouge out your eyes with a red hot Tuohy than sit in another committee meeting.
Well how will you find out if you dont try? I'm on a few resident committees at the moment and do not find myself trying to gouge out my eyes with a stylet.
 
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I got my MBA on the company dime. It took 2.2 years to finish in executive fashion. I would not have done it if I had to pay out of pocket.

As with college, you get what you put into it. I view it as a ticket to the event and as a means of vertical advancement. Once I am 10 years into academia and ascending the food chain I believe it will help me compared to my non-MBA competitors. In the interim, it will help me in my private ventures. It 100% opens your eyes to what business is like and does help you understand and try to cut through the bull****. You will never be as good as the straight professionals at marketing, accounting, finance, or management ... but you will be able to sit at the table, listen to their reports, and at least know what they are talking about.

The only way to ensure physician futures is to have physicians on hospital boards. MBA and/or nepotism are the only ways in. Most of us don't have nepotism or college frat connections to rely upon, thus making MBA the only way in. I would strongly consider it in year 4-5 of attending life.
 

ryanjmy

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I think having anesthesiologists in key leadership positions can help further our goals and strengthen the department as a whole.
I found it to be the exact opposite. Administration views us as an expense. They want to maximize cheap labor and in effect weaken the department. They can’t do that without the help of a “medical director”. They are looking for a shill to help them achieve an agenda.

I’m sure academics is different but don’t get an mba to help the anesthesia department. If you’re dream is to be ceo then go for it.
 
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JiPo

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Is online MBA perceived the same as regular MBA?
 

kidthor

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BuT tHe MiLlIoN dOlLaR sAlArY!!!! I'm not saying the money isnt a factor, but I think having anesthesiologists in key leadership positions can help further our goals and strengthen the department as a whole.
In reality most physician administrator positions don't pay that much extra unless you're at a truly high level (CEO, CMO, etc). And that job is going to be tough. Much as people bash them, being a high level hospital exec has got to be really high pressure. It's only worth it if you're into that kind of thing - I wouldn't do it for the money.

Being a rank and file anesthesiologist honestly isn't a bad deal. Sure it should be paid better. But the surgeons and proceduralists bring the patients to you, someone supplies the equipment and drugs and other OR stuff for you, and someone else helps with billing. Basically you show up, do your thing, do minimal paperwork, then go home and get paid rather OK? Not too much hassle, not a bad deal. It can be nice not to worry about too much business stuff unless you're actually into that.

The only way to ensure physician futures is to have physicians on hospital boards. MBA and/or nepotism are the only ways in. Most of us don't have nepotism or college frat connections to rely upon, thus making MBA the only way in. I would strongly consider it in year 4-5 of attending life.
Huh? Plenty of physician administrators are there because they are effective managers and well respected by peers. Some of it might be nepotism or shady dealing, but not all. The MBA can help, but I just wouldn't view it as a way in or a requirement. Sure, something to think about after a few years if administration and management interests someone (and again if your employer pays for it). I just think people are still in a hoop-jumping mentality when we should think past that - being a doctor is already the end game. Some of these high level hospital admins have a BA then an MPH or an MMM - not even an MBA. And they aren't clinicians in any sense... yet they're in "upper management".

You're a board certified doctor already!!! Acknowledge our training for what it is - high level, extensive, unmatched. You can figure out the business of medicine if you put your mind to it. Think about the long game and what interests you. Maybe learning about business via an MBA is part of your end game (and you can learn a lot in a good MBA program), but it's not a required means to an end.

Consider the list of USNWR top three hospital CEOs:

Mayo - Gianrico Farrugia, MD - GI doc, no MBA
Cleveland Clinic - Tomislav Mihaljevic, MD - CT surgeon, no MBA
Johns Hopkins - Paul B. Rothman, MD - Rheumatologist, no MBA

Want to be the CEO of a top three hospital? The evidence shows that being a doctor enough for the end-game. No MBA required.

For OP - have you been to the ASA Practice Management conference? I highly recommend it. The speakers are very sophisticated and you can get a real feel for the business of medicine and "value" propositions. Noting of course that covid is messing up all the conferences - especially this one since it's in Las Vegas. Cross your fingers...
 
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