Wow. A lot of opinions in this thread being represented as facts based on personal anecdotes. How obtuse and uninformed it is to make blanket generalisations about an entire nation's educational curriculum based on some limited 2nd hand information.
I think you've missed the comment that USyd grads are at a disadvantage compared to UNSW grads when it comes to the surgical entrance exams in Australia. Yes, that's a blanket generalization when you're in the country and several surgeons who are responsible for admitting surgical trainees tell you that.
So for those of you who just don't seem to get the point after all of this:
The Australian curriculum is different than North America - it is not worse. It is worse for preparing you for entering residency in North America. No one is arguing that that the Australian program should prepare you for North American medicine. But if you are from North America and you want to come here with the intent of going back, then you should be properly informed.
Also, the Australian graduate curriculum is much different than it's old undergraduate curriculum.
Medicine is rote memorization whether people like it or not.
And once something is learned once, it can be re-learned much more quickly.
"Hey doctor, my (insert complaint here) hurts - what's wrong?"
"Well gee- I don't know - let me Google it and get back to you"
You don't know what you don't know. The amount of diseases learned in the first two years in the University of Sydney curriclum is extremely small.
For example, for 5 weeks of cardiology block, why isn't something like pericarditis even mentioned? Atrial myxoma isn't important but would it hurt someone to say it? Does anyone really need to spend a week of cardiology learning about chronic fatigue syndrome which they did when I went through? Wouldn't a week of heart block and ECGs be more useful?
What about a week of respiratory block learning about smoking cessation? 7 weeks about the lungs and 3 weeks about the kidneys and no weeks on pharmacology. For some reason, I guess pharmacokinetics just isn't important anymore - who cares about zero-order and first-order elimination. Who needs dosage calculations - we don't need to appreciate it - that's what pharmacists are for. And who needs social workers, physios and occupational therapists when we can do their job for them!
Time could just be better spent learning difficult concepts that will be difficult to get to when one starts working.
The Australian program is good in a sense that you have time to decide what you want to do but my issue is that the USyd program is short-changing locals when they compete for local programs as well.
USyd isn't bad - it's improving.
That being said, the move toward a graduate entrance system is a positive one for the sole purpose that I think you are potentially eliminating a lot of good candidates by having a pure marks based entrance system that was representative of the old undergraduate entry system.
Ezekiel20: The USMLE is not a system for ranking US students for programs. That is a myth and it is perpetuated by those that do not understand the system and even those in the system. It was never intended to be a cutoff for programs but a way of standardizing the material learned throughout all the medical schools.
Some programs have used it as a cutoff because of things like a lack of grades or a lack of standardization of grades from different medical schools but if you look at released entrance data, local students with USMLE scores below the so-called cut-off scores can still get into very competitive programs.
Internationals who are previously trained and have good research backgrounds can even enter competitive programs like plastic surgery with sub-par USMLE scores.
Other factors such as reference letters from good clerkships, research, membership to the Alpha Omega Alpha Medical Honor Society etc. are much more important.
If you do not believe me, look it up yourself. The US publishes entrance statistics for all its specialties. The process is much more transparent and 'fair'.
Look at the way the admission process is in Australia.
What's an unaccredited position? It means you work as an orthopaedic surgeon but not as an orthopaedic surgeon.
You can spend years in unaccredited positions that do not count toward your training as a consultant.
I'm sure that's fair for everyone involved.
Sure, you work hard as a dog as a med student in the US, but what happens when you finish? You know you're going to be a consultant at the end of the road.
You don't learn medicine as an intern. You push paper.
I am sorry if I sound anti-Australian but I am far from it.
Australia is a great country and it's a great place to work but everyone should strive for excellence. It's this tall poppy phenomenon that doesn't make sense to me.
Just look at the lack of training positions because the government won't fund anymore spots.
If you don't think it's ****ed up that the government pushes for more BST (basic surgical trainee) positions without adding AST (advanced surgical trainee) positions in the state (you sign onto BST and then move on to AST which is the US equivalent of a residency in your specialty) making people stuck in their careers with no where to go... I don't want to know what you think is working right now.
Who knows if the BST program will last next year with the introduction of SET.
How do you think a lot of entrance is done in the advanced training programs in Australia? Are you telling me that process is as transparent as the US?
Why do surgical trainees here pay over $10,000 a year in fees? What does that go to? Why hasn't the RACS released information about that?
Look, there are problems in the US medical program as well but if you're an Australian medical student, you have to fight for your future rights.
There are 3 new medical schools opening in NSW. Notre Dame, Wollongong and the University of Western Sydney.
USyd is undergoing talks right now to have agreements with Notre Dame so that clinicians for teaching won't be tossed between the two Unis.
Notre Dame will be based in Darlinghurst with its first intake of 88 students and then to 104 over the next 2 years starting 2008.
You know how crowded it's going to get at the hospital?
Do you think it's better for a 3rd year medical student to have supervision doing as many cannulas as possible or be released as an intern where the hospital staff assume he/she can do cannulas and they're off on their own in a trial by fire?
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America and Canada have horrible problems with their medical systems as well but we don't talk about them here because this is the Australian forum.
One only needs to glance at a few thread in other forums to get a taste of what people across the Pacific have to deal with.
http://www.medfac.usyd.edu.au/futurestudent/applicant/internat/fees.php
"
Applicants who are not Australian citizens or permanent residents, or are not citizens of New Zealand, will be considered as international students, and are accepted into the University only on a full-fee basis. The fee for 2007 is AUD$48,864 p.a. + one year's health cover around $349. You will need to allow for around A$17,000 p.a. to cover living costs."
With fees like that, International students need to know what they are getting into before coming.
You don't hear the horror stories or the bad things that happen because 1. no Uni would publicize their failures and 2. people are embarrassed
Despite all my bitching, I am actually considering staying in Australia because I do like some aspects of their training here. It would just be careless of me to paint an unrealistic picture. What kind of doctor tells a patient only the benefits of a treatment with no mention of the side-effects or adverse events ?
Your patient can't prepare without the proper information and when something goes wrong, your patient will be extremely angry and you will get sued.
Anyways, that last bit wasn't very cohesive but I have an exam on Monday to study for.
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But yea, a MBBS is equivalent to a MD degree.
http://www.med.ubc.ca/education/md_programs/md_ugrad.htm
UBC UNDERGRADUTE medicine
http://www.mssm.edu/medschool/lcme/introduction.shtml
Mount Sinai School of Medicine New York
"
Mount Sinai School of Medicine was in the process of a rigorous self-assessment in preparation for a site visit by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) in October 2003. This process offered the faculty, administration, and students the opportunity to reflect on and evaluate every component of education, assessing where we were achieving the excellence for which we strive and identifying areas in which there may be room for improvements.
The aim of the assessment was to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the medical school as well as "to define strategies to ensure that the strengths are maintained and the problems addressed."
Every component of the medical school was evaluated in the process, including the complete 4-year undergraduate medical curriculum, the graduate school, each basic science and clinical department, the library, affiliated institutions, the governance and administration of the school, research, and all other educational programs, including CME and GME. "
MD just has has different meaning in Canada and the US than the rest of the world.
The end.