MBBS vs. MD-USA

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neuro2bjc

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Hi, I am an American student who plans on getting my MD within the next 9 years [I'm a junior in high school currently, honors and ap] I understand in Australia one receives a degree after 5 years at college after high school. Do the students in the Australia then continue to get a MD or are they considered general doctors? If they are considered doctors does anyone know what degree that would be equivalent to in the USA? I tried researching this on-line and it said these undergraduate degrees are equal to an American MD, which I think is incorrect-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Medicine_and_Surgery

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Why would the detail on wiki be incorrect? :)
I had a few americans in my class who came over for the sole purpose becomming a doctor at 24 instead of 26. Shrug. Obviously you make yourself less desirable to american residency programmes (than you would if you had graduated from an american uni) so it's a gamble.
 
an australian mbbs is considered equivalent to a US MD for licensing purposes. that said, it is not the same experience since they are training doctors for australia and not the US, and as such have much different requirements regarding licensing (which they call registration). a major factor most will note is that the curriculum at aus schools is not centered around the USMLE (the 3 step US licensing examination). in the US, many/most schools require passing the first 2 steps for graduation. the aus schools will not focus teaching on passing the USMLE as aus docs dont take it. additionally, the aus schools have transitioned to a point where PBL make up the majority of the curriculum. there are schools in the US using the PBL format but to a much lesser degree.

that said, you can indeed get the mbbs after high school in 6 years (with a few schools being 5 years). as the previous poster noted you will be disadvantaged as compared to US trained docs when applying to residency. unless you are a very intelligent, motivated and dedicated student you may have to worry about passing the USMLE or at least doing well enough. there are many doing it through the grad entry schools in aus. these people already have degrees and have likely put much more thought and effort into their decision to pursue medicine than someone coming out of high school (hence the transition of some of the aus schools ffrom undergrad entry to grad entry). they also have a degree to fall back on should they not finish med school.

there are many posts on sdn about US students' experiences at aus schools. they are for the most part graduate entry students. many are very negative. youll have to weigh your options and the challenges each present, as well as your motivations for doing medicine in aus. if it is solely because you feel you can get the degree in shorter time, i would suggest reconsidering. many start university and realize their interests are different than what they initially thought. i, for example, changed my major 5 times and transfered between 4 uni's. that said, i probably wouldnt have made it into medicine as an undergrad anyways.
 
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your motivations for doing medicine in aus. if it is solely because you feel you can get the degree in shorter time, i would suggest reconsidering. many start university and realize their interests are different than what they initially thought. i, for example, changed my major 5 times and transfered between 4 uni's. that said, i probably wouldnt have made it into medicine as an undergrad anyways.

There are 6-year med school programs in the US too if someone was interested. Also, UOP has a 5-year dental program all for students right out of high school. So, I agree with jake theory in that if you're only goal is to get done faster, you should apply to these first.
 
There are 6-year med school programs in the US too if someone was interested. Also, UOP has a 5-year dental program all for students right out of high school. So, I agree with jake theory in that if you're only goal is to get done faster, you should apply to these first.

there are some US programs which are combined in which you do a bachelors degree first and then the MD which in total takes maybe 6 years. they are very rare. you should be able to find such programs in the MSAR (available from amcas). however, given there are so few in the US, were you to be set on doing the 6 year thing, i would still apply to aus schools if i were you. there are 125 med schools in the US with a population of about 300 mil. there are like 12 total in aus with a pop of about 20 mil. given you arently likely to be the only seeking a shorter experience and there are probably no more than maybe 10 programs (if that many) in the US of the 125 offering 6 year combined programs, competititon would be very fierce, likely more than the grad programs. the US programs would give you a bachelors after 2-3 years and the MD after an additional 3-4 years. the aus schools, youd generally only give the mbbs. there are some programs that after 3 years allow you yo leave with a bachelors in medical science, for what its worth. one US program i know of is boston uni. however, its likely very difficult to get into, and given the financial situation of aus schools, it likely to be much easier to get into an aus 6 year program than a US one.
 
Australian medical schools have gone through a substantial change in curriculum over the past decade. They used to be among the best medical schools in the world but many locals have criticized the new format used by many schools in Oz. Traditionally the Australian MBBS took six years of study, now it is four, a substantial amount of material has been excised. For a person with a limited science background this could prove to be a challenge for those planning to return to the US. The USMLE Step 1 is an intense exam requiring strong medical science knowledge. The new programs represent a drop in standards for Australian medical education. Generally speaking, schools in the UK are more well respected than those in Australia. However, its harder to get into a British medical school than an Australian one. If you have the choice between a program in the US and one in Oz, go to the US.
 
Australian medical schools have gone through a substantial change in curriculum over the past decade. They used to be among the best medical schools in the world but many locals have criticized the new format used by many schools in Oz. Traditionally the Australian MBBS took six years of study, now it is four, a substantial amount of material has been excised. For a person with a limited science background this could prove to be a challenge for those planning to return to the US. The USMLE Step 1 is an intense exam requiring strong medical science knowledge. The new programs represent a drop in standards for Australian medical education. Generally speaking, schools in the UK are more well respected than those in Australia. However, its harder to get into a British medical school than an Australian one. If you have the choice between a program in the US and one in Oz, go to the US.


?? It is a 4-year graduate entry program now just like the ones in the US.

The only thing they have "taken away" is the basic undergraduate chemistry and bio and physiology courses. (something that passing the GAMSAT or MCAT should prove that you already have a handle on). No?

Also Australian medical schools train students to work in Australia, not to cater to passing the USMLE (UK schools are no different in this regard).


What about the 3-year PBL based MD LCME accredited program at McMaster.. They don't require any prereqs or even the MCAT. Its accredited in North America. hmmm. :rolleyes: (no comments?)

Sorry I don't see the problem. I feel Australian standards are on par with the US and UK. Medical school is also what you make it. You only get out of it what you are willing to put in. Work hard enough and you can do whatever you want.

Peace
 
i think it is important to note that, though the aus schools and US schools have many similarities, the aus schools do not teach you what you need to know for the USMLE. you will have to teach yourself. given that you are paying about the same tuition as you would in a US school, you simply are not getting a good deal, and that is not even considering that you will be disadvantage simply for being an IMG.

if you are an australian planning to practice in australia, the aussie schools are in fact excellent. it is a package deal. the aussie schools work best with the aussie postgrad training. if you start mixing and matching pieces, parts will not fit correctly.

if you plan to practice in the US and can get into a US school, do it. if you can't, and you wouldnt mind the stigma of being a DO aits limitations (if you later want to move to another country, the DO degree likely wont be recognized, while an MD would), that is your next bet.

if neither those fit your plan, the next best thing would be either aussie schools or caribean schools. both have advantages and disadvantages. caribeans will usually give you 2 full years clinicals in US hospitals, a major plus. but they are after all caribean schools and everyone knows people only go there cuz they couldnt get into a US school. aussie schools have much better reps and train excellent docs (but im not saying carib schools train bad docs), but they train them well to work and pursue the aus postgrad system. they will not train you well to enter US postgrad training. and it is not just basic science. you will not do as many or as great a variety of procedures in clinics either.
 
I don't have time to write a detailed reply but I just want to write that I agree with jaketheory.

The Graduate programs here are currently much different than those in the US.
You are not allowed to do as much as 3rd and 4th year students in the US and Canada are. You do not get patient responsibility and you are only peripherally involved in patient care. You are never on call and are never expected to be.

As for the course content, the Graduate medicine Australian program as a whole - including post-graduate work, makes you learn information similar to that of the undergraduate medical program in the US.

There is a reason why there is a 50% pass rate of USyd graduates the SBA portion of surgical entrance exams and other schools have an 80% pass rate.

No matter how hard you work in the graduate program, unless you are stealing a body to dissect on your own time or have an external exam like the USMLE to study for, you will not learn the same things as someone in North America.

Whether that makes you a better doctor or not is another story.
 
Just something to think about if you are considering Australia and want to return to the US or Canada.

As has been said the Australian education system is not geared towards getting students a residency in the US. Obviously. But after 4 years of med school in Australia or 4 years of med school in the US, the difference between students will be small or non-existent. In the US, investigations and procedures are relied on heavily for diagnosis. In Australia, history and examination are used much more consistently for differentials. So as and Australian you might find you are little weaker on specific tests, but I can tell you the Americans I have seen in Australia are definitely much weaker on history and examination techniques. In fact I would say that after 2nd year in Australia, clinical skills (not knowledge, but skills) are equal to many 3rd/4th year US med students. At least the ones on elective I have seen. On the other hand I know that when Australian students head to the US for elective we are weaker on specific investigations and will generate shorter more focused differential lists. But at the end of it all the patient care will end up being very similar.

The USMLE is a bitch. But it's a good thing in that studying for it will fill in a lot of the gaps in the Australian cirriculum. I think if you are heading overseas, Australia should be tops on the list. The elective students from England I have worked with have been less than impressive and have all said teaching and clinical experience is much better at Australian medical schools than in the UK. What every decision you make though, think about it long and hard. Cause 4 years and $150 000 is a big committment whichever way you decide.
 
I don't have time to write a detailed reply but I just want to write that I agree with jaketheory.

The Graduate programs here are currently much different than those in the US.
You are not allowed to do as much as 3rd and 4th year students in the US and Canada are. You do not get patient responsibility and you are only peripherally involved in patient care. You are never on call and are never expected to be.

As for the course content, the Graduate medicine Australian program as a whole - including post-graduate work, makes you learn information similar to that of the undergraduate medical program in the US.

There is a reason why there is a 50% pass rate of USyd graduates the SBA portion of surgical entrance exams and other schools have an 80% pass rate.

No matter how hard you work in the graduate program, unless you are stealing a body to dissect on your own time or have an external exam like the USMLE to study for, you will not learn the same things as someone in North America.

Whether that makes you a better doctor or not is another story.

The point of most Americans and Canadians studying in Australia is to go back home and become a licensed physician. With this respect Australia is a weak choice and is definitely not as good as going to a US school(which are as difficult to get in as a US program). At Flinders, one recent graduating class had 17 students, 14 of whom are doing an internship year in Australia, the rest are unnaccounted for, assuming optimistically that the three are in US residencies, you have a match rate of 17.6 percent, Flinders is considered to be the best Australian medical school among US PDs. Most students want to finish medical school and start their residency, this is harder to do from Australia. At schools in NSW, it will be nearly impossible to stay an extra year to bide your time because internship spots are severely limited. Anyway its a waste of time for a North American because it will not count towards anything in the US with regards to residencies. There are quite a few Australian trained doctors working in the US but that's another catch, if you were a former international student it will be nearly impossible to get residency training in Australia unless you are willing to work in a very remote area.
 
that possibly only 3 of 17 went directly on to a US residency does not necessarily equate to a 18% match rate. that would only be the case had they all actually applied (and put serious effort in to going to interviews and submitting a rank list). if you've been to australia you could probably understand why someone wouldn't want to leave immediately. some might stay for internship just to be able to stay one last year in aus.

i also dont think its fair to say that doing internship in aus is a comlete waste. those, after all, are getting paid comparably to a US resident so they are making money. they are also gaining valuable experience, which could help them with matching later despite that they would still have to do US internship. the term internship is really outdated in the US. it existed when the US system was like the other systems in which grads completed a general training intern year before going to specialy training. that system no longer exists, so it should more accurately be called doing residency. from such a viewpoint, there is no repeating of internships. you are going from internship to residency, whereas in the US you would not have done a stand alone internship year unless doing a prelim or transitional year.
 
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Interesting comments above on studying for the USMLE in an Aussie med school.

It is definately true that to do well in Step 1 as an international student in Aus, you will need months of preparation outside the regular class hours. Aussie curriculums do not teach the details required to gain competitive Step 1 scores.

Having said that, I should stress that this does not mean that Aus schools have lower standards than US schools. There are 200+ med schools in the US, compared to about 15 in Aus. Since 4th years in the US apply directly into their desired specialties, the US health system needs a method of ranking the applicants from #1 to #38642, and that is the Step 1. I honestly do not believe that having memorised hundreds of tables and mnemonics has anything to do with being a good doctor. Rote-learned knowledge simply does not last.

Aus students have a lower pass rate in the Step 1 compared to US students, but what do you expect? While US med students study for the first 2 years with the common aim of nailing the Step 1, many Aus students simply have a crack at it.

Also interesting is the comment on how 3rd/4th years in Aus are much less involved in patient care than the US counterparts. This is definately true. You will not see an Aussie med student in the emergency at 3am, nor will you see them ordering labs and treating patients, only to report back to their attendings occasionally.

However, it is important to realise that even after graduation, Aussie students (now doctors) will spend 1 year of internship and 1-2 years of residency, UNDIFFERENTIATED. This means that they will rotate through different specialties until they decide on a career path and enter specialty training (during which time they are called registrars).

Aussie med students can afford to spend 3 years in hospitals before choosing to specialise, as they do not have US$250,000 in debt when they graduate. In fact, about 70% students are on a CSP (Commonwealth Supported Place, formerly called HECS), meaning that they only pay 1/4 of the full tuition. In my cohort, 75% of students are either on a CSP, full scholarship, rural scholarship or rural bonded place, meaning only 25% (mostly international students, plus some local fee-paying students) are paying full fees. If you compare this to what the US students have to pay (and borrow heavily in order to pay), you can probably understand why the US medical schools need to work their students like dogs in their 3rd/4th years. Once they match into surgery, they will not see too much internal medicine, and vice versa, so it may be their last chance to experience specialties other than their own.

What I do admit to is that many Aus schools aggressively market their programs to international (read US/Canada) students and create the false impression that students will do well in the Step 1 just by studying the school curriculum. This is grossly misleading, and on this fact alone I can understand why many international students are unhappy with Aus med schools.
 
I actually go to an Australian school, most North Americans I know here have taken the USMLE Step 1 in their third and fourth years, some faculty members even insinuated that students are better of taking the exam in the third and fourth years. At the big 3 Caribbean programs, students take this exam in the second year so they can advance into year 3 clinicals. I have been here for nearly one year, during my first trip I found Australia to be enchanting, but after spending an extended period of time, reality set in, Australia is not the paradise that people think, contrary to people's beliefs crime and poverty exist here, a middle aged office worker was beaten to death by two teens not far from where I live, there was a homeless person who slept underneath my rented house.
A lot of international North American students complete an internship primarily to prepare for the Step 2 portion of the exam. A good number of the students I know take the second exam during their internship years.
That being said, going to Australia is a longer path than going to a Caribbean school. The Caribbean is only a few hours away from the States, while Oz is a 20 hour plus plane ride. Its difficult to be seperated from family and friends for such a long period time.
You are still going to be an IMG whether you went to the Caribbean or Oz, and it will be harder to match into competitive residencies from either. Australia does not have a placement advantage with regards to US residencies compared to Caribbean programs. I have heard of Australian educated doctors working in top US hospitals but you have to understand that these doctors were Australian born and were the best of the best. When it comes to Canadian and US students in Australia, the schools have somewhat easier admissions policies.
 
Wow. A lot of opinions in this thread being represented as facts based on personal anecdotes. How obtuse and uninformed it is to make blanket generalisations about an entire nation's educational curriculum based on some limited 2nd hand information.
 
how easy it is to post such a critical comment which offers absolutely nothing useful.

i have done a lot of research talking to people who have done it, not just those pursuing now, but those who have finished and are now back in the US. there is an overriding theme in what all of them say. that is, compared to the us students which they interacted with while they were in residency, their skills were deficient. yes, you can be successful, but you will have to put alot more effort into it.

what it boils down to is, given the challenges faced by IMG's returning to the US, they will quite literally need to be better than their US counterparts, and given the US system has already judged them to have less potental(evidenced by not admitting them to US schools), they are more likely to fail. i'm not saying it cannot be done. many have. but those will not be the average applicant who couldnt get into US med schools. obviously there are exceptions.

and i have been to australia more than once. i have visited medical schools there and talked to multiple professors and admissions officers at several of them. they are great schools if you are going into the australian (and probably other similar) postgrad systems, but not that great for preparing for the US system.
 
Wow. A lot of opinions in this thread being represented as facts based on personal anecdotes. How obtuse and uninformed it is to make blanket generalisations about an entire nation's educational curriculum based on some limited 2nd hand information.

I think you've missed the comment that USyd grads are at a disadvantage compared to UNSW grads when it comes to the surgical entrance exams in Australia. Yes, that's a blanket generalization when you're in the country and several surgeons who are responsible for admitting surgical trainees tell you that.


So for those of you who just don't seem to get the point after all of this:
The Australian curriculum is different than North America - it is not worse. It is worse for preparing you for entering residency in North America. No one is arguing that that the Australian program should prepare you for North American medicine. But if you are from North America and you want to come here with the intent of going back, then you should be properly informed.

Also, the Australian graduate curriculum is much different than it's old undergraduate curriculum.

Medicine is rote memorization whether people like it or not.
And once something is learned once, it can be re-learned much more quickly.

"Hey doctor, my (insert complaint here) hurts - what's wrong?"

"Well gee- I don't know - let me Google it and get back to you"


You don't know what you don't know. The amount of diseases learned in the first two years in the University of Sydney curriclum is extremely small.

For example, for 5 weeks of cardiology block, why isn't something like pericarditis even mentioned? Atrial myxoma isn't important but would it hurt someone to say it? Does anyone really need to spend a week of cardiology learning about chronic fatigue syndrome which they did when I went through? Wouldn't a week of heart block and ECGs be more useful?

What about a week of respiratory block learning about smoking cessation? 7 weeks about the lungs and 3 weeks about the kidneys and no weeks on pharmacology. For some reason, I guess pharmacokinetics just isn't important anymore - who cares about zero-order and first-order elimination. Who needs dosage calculations - we don't need to appreciate it - that's what pharmacists are for. And who needs social workers, physios and occupational therapists when we can do their job for them!

Time could just be better spent learning difficult concepts that will be difficult to get to when one starts working.

The Australian program is good in a sense that you have time to decide what you want to do but my issue is that the USyd program is short-changing locals when they compete for local programs as well.

USyd isn't bad - it's improving.

That being said, the move toward a graduate entrance system is a positive one for the sole purpose that I think you are potentially eliminating a lot of good candidates by having a pure marks based entrance system that was representative of the old undergraduate entry system.

Ezekiel20: The USMLE is not a system for ranking US students for programs. That is a myth and it is perpetuated by those that do not understand the system and even those in the system. It was never intended to be a cutoff for programs but a way of standardizing the material learned throughout all the medical schools.
Some programs have used it as a cutoff because of things like a lack of grades or a lack of standardization of grades from different medical schools but if you look at released entrance data, local students with USMLE scores below the so-called cut-off scores can still get into very competitive programs.

Internationals who are previously trained and have good research backgrounds can even enter competitive programs like plastic surgery with sub-par USMLE scores.


Other factors such as reference letters from good clerkships, research, membership to the Alpha Omega Alpha Medical Honor Society etc. are much more important.

If you do not believe me, look it up yourself. The US publishes entrance statistics for all its specialties. The process is much more transparent and 'fair'.


Look at the way the admission process is in Australia.

What's an unaccredited position? It means you work as an orthopaedic surgeon but not as an orthopaedic surgeon.

You can spend years in unaccredited positions that do not count toward your training as a consultant.

I'm sure that's fair for everyone involved.

Sure, you work hard as a dog as a med student in the US, but what happens when you finish? You know you're going to be a consultant at the end of the road.

You don't learn medicine as an intern. You push paper.


I am sorry if I sound anti-Australian but I am far from it.
Australia is a great country and it's a great place to work but everyone should strive for excellence. It's this tall poppy phenomenon that doesn't make sense to me.

Just look at the lack of training positions because the government won't fund anymore spots.

If you don't think it's ****ed up that the government pushes for more BST (basic surgical trainee) positions without adding AST (advanced surgical trainee) positions in the state (you sign onto BST and then move on to AST which is the US equivalent of a residency in your specialty) making people stuck in their careers with no where to go... I don't want to know what you think is working right now.

Who knows if the BST program will last next year with the introduction of SET.

How do you think a lot of entrance is done in the advanced training programs in Australia? Are you telling me that process is as transparent as the US?

Why do surgical trainees here pay over $10,000 a year in fees? What does that go to? Why hasn't the RACS released information about that?

Look, there are problems in the US medical program as well but if you're an Australian medical student, you have to fight for your future rights.

There are 3 new medical schools opening in NSW. Notre Dame, Wollongong and the University of Western Sydney.

USyd is undergoing talks right now to have agreements with Notre Dame so that clinicians for teaching won't be tossed between the two Unis.

Notre Dame will be based in Darlinghurst with its first intake of 88 students and then to 104 over the next 2 years starting 2008.

You know how crowded it's going to get at the hospital?
Do you think it's better for a 3rd year medical student to have supervision doing as many cannulas as possible or be released as an intern where the hospital staff assume he/she can do cannulas and they're off on their own in a trial by fire?
---



America and Canada have horrible problems with their medical systems as well but we don't talk about them here because this is the Australian forum.

One only needs to glance at a few thread in other forums to get a taste of what people across the Pacific have to deal with.

http://www.medfac.usyd.edu.au/futurestudent/applicant/internat/fees.php
"
Applicants who are not Australian citizens or permanent residents, or are not citizens of New Zealand, will be considered as international students, and are accepted into the University only on a full-fee basis. The fee for 2007 is AUD$48,864 p.a. + one year's health cover around $349. You will need to allow for around A$17,000 p.a. to cover living costs."

With fees like that, International students need to know what they are getting into before coming.


You don't hear the horror stories or the bad things that happen because 1. no Uni would publicize their failures and 2. people are embarrassed

Despite all my bitching, I am actually considering staying in Australia because I do like some aspects of their training here. It would just be careless of me to paint an unrealistic picture. What kind of doctor tells a patient only the benefits of a treatment with no mention of the side-effects or adverse events ?

Your patient can't prepare without the proper information and when something goes wrong, your patient will be extremely angry and you will get sued.


Anyways, that last bit wasn't very cohesive but I have an exam on Monday to study for.

---


But yea, a MBBS is equivalent to a MD degree.
http://www.med.ubc.ca/education/md_programs/md_ugrad.htm

UBC UNDERGRADUTE medicine

http://www.mssm.edu/medschool/lcme/introduction.shtml
Mount Sinai School of Medicine New York

"
Mount Sinai School of Medicine was in the process of a rigorous self-assessment in preparation for a site visit by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) in October 2003. This process offered the faculty, administration, and students the opportunity to reflect on and evaluate every component of education, assessing where we were achieving the excellence for which we strive and identifying areas in which there may be room for improvements.

The aim of the assessment was to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the medical school as well as "to define strategies to ensure that the strengths are maintained and the problems addressed." Every component of the medical school was evaluated in the process, including the complete 4-year undergraduate medical curriculum, the graduate school, each basic science and clinical department, the library, affiliated institutions, the governance and administration of the school, research, and all other educational programs, including CME and GME. "

MD just has has different meaning in Canada and the US than the rest of the world.

The end.
 
In the context of North Americans going back to the USA, Australian medical education is inferior to that offered in North America. The lack of strong basic science will come to haunt you later and even earlier with the USMLE. The PBL is bull****, it was made to cater for slackers. Medicine involves a heavy amount of memorization, we did it in undergraduate Organic Chemistry, it is part of the learning process in medical school. The faculties aggressively market their programs as equivalents to what is taught in the US which is fraud on their part. Australian programs are nothing like those in North America.
 
In the context of North Americans going back to the USA, Australian medical education is inferior to that offered in North America.
Well, in that regard neither are any UK programs, or for that matter.. Canadian programs as well because none of them prepare you for the USMLE.

With that in mind, it seems like you might agree that the Carib schools might be "better" simply because they put all their effort into teaching you how to "ace the USMLE".


I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree.
 
Well, in that regard neither are any UK programs, or for that matter.. Canadian programs as well because none of them prepare you for the USMLE.

With that in mind, it seems like you might agree that the Carib schools might be "better" simply because they put all their effort into teaching you how to "ace the USMLE".

Agreed. It's a good analogy.

However, I have to say that Carib schools won't prepare you for medicine in society on the basis that they are only teaching for the USMLE and are schools made for profit and won't necessarily give you high USMLE scores either.

The Australian programs give you access to research which is far more important for you in the long run.

They give a better education here in terms of teaching medicine in practice and medicine in society.

The basic sciences are lacking at some institutions but I have to say that a lot of the Undergraduate medical programs in Australia have strong basic sciences instruction.

I can't say that PBL is built for slackers but the PBL curriculum is definitely on the light side.

Might I also add that the Canadian curriculum would help for the USMLE on the sole basis that the US and Canadian curriculums are similar due to the LCME accreditation.
 
Hi, I am an American student who plans on getting my MD within the next 9 years [I'm a junior in high school currently, honors and ap] I understand in Australia one receives a degree after 5 years at college after high school. Do the students in the Australia then continue to get a MD or are they considered general doctors? If they are considered doctors does anyone know what degree that would be equivalent to in the USA?

As already pointed out, the degrees are considered equivalent.

In Australia after graduation you do a year's general internship, durcing which time you obtain you license. After that you can apply to the specialist colleges for specialty training, although many require an extra year (or more) of residency undertaking general posts before you will be considered. Most of the specialty training is 5 years.

Traditionally, medicine was purely undergraduate. You could apply straight from high school and it was a 6 year degree. There are now at least 1 5 year undergraduate degrees. Many universities are moving to a graduate program, which is 4 years. They assume (and test for) a certain level of knowledge about basic sciences, but there is generally no pre-requisites - you could come from an english lit. course.

The difference between an MD in the US and an MBBS in Australia is more of an historic one rather than one of real substance.

I tried researching this on-line and it said these undergraduate degrees are equal to an American MD, which I think is incorrect-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Medicine_and_Surgery

By poking around the Wiki articles about MD and MBBS you should be able to pick up what it is all about.

Craig
 
When it comes to Canadian and US students in Australia, the schools have somewhat easier admissions policies.

and interestingly enough, being a student from melbourne uni (having probably the highest admission standards in australia, whether it's for local/int'l, with a huge number of applicants in the 99.9th+ %tile in the state of victoria prior to entry), 2 of the top 10 students in my class of 297 students this year are canadians. :) (297 students sound like a lot, but there are over 7 clinical schools for us after our pre-clinicals and research year) i'm not sure about other aussie med schools, but in our school there's a ranking system and it's made known to us (listed by student ID of course); many american schools use the pass-fail system, hence the competitive atmosphere is probably much less. imagine how you'd feel when u see yourself being ranked 200 something.

i haven't checked SDN in a long time cuz many comments here are fairly rubbish based largely on anecdotes; and i suspect many of the posters haven't even been to australia and write their comments based on hearsay. gross generalisation from lots of posters.

so whatever, this forum is losing its value.
 
so american 3rd/4th year students have more clinical responsibilities; is it necessarily a good thing for the patients? are those students really ready for the job? would you, if you were the patient, want to be treated by someone who's merely a 3rd/4th year student? i don't know about you, but i'm sure i wouldn't.
 
if u see dr norman bethune's degree, it's MB (Toronto)

MB = bachelor of medicine

now UofT calls it MD
 
i don't wanna sound like i'm anti-america. to be honest, if i can transfer to Harvard or johns hopkins now, i will do it right away with no 2nd thoughts. however, if it's to some unheard-of-schools, and there're many in the US, then no thanks.
 
House MD the TV show in America is known as House MBBS in Oz. There's a character who is an Australian doctor on the show. The Australian medical degree is a respected degree but its more of a self directed learning degree, at least the graduate entry degrees are designed this way. Regardless if you went to a non LCME school, getting into a ultra competitive residency is going to be very difficult. Its not so much a problem if you are interested in IM, FM, OB, Peds, Anesthesiology, and General Surgery.
Still I have heard of Australian trained specialists transferring their credentials to the US. Browsing the web I found several Australian surgeons working in some major academic medical centers like UPenn and Columbia.
 
House MD the TV show in America is known as House MBBS in Oz.

No, it is called House MD, most people here just refer to it as "House". Have a look at channel 10's site about it:
http://www.ten.com.au/promo.aspx?promoID=318

The Australian medical degree is a respected degree but its more of a self directed learning degree, at least the graduate entry degrees are designed this way.

That's a broad statement. Most of the degrees incorporate PBL into the curiculum, as I beleive they do in the US. The degree to which varies from institution to institution. Some are still mainly didactic
 
i think it is important to note that, though the aus schools and US schools have many similarities, the aus schools do not teach you what you need to know for the USMLE. you will have to teach yourself. given that you are paying about the same tuition as you would in a US school, you simply are not getting a good deal, and that is not even considering that you will be disadvantage simply for being an IMG.

I can see your point, but for some people like me who came to the U.S. and are not permanent residents, getting admission is much more difficult that you think, and also being on certain visa in the U.S. such as H4, really restricts you into how involved you can be in terms of volunteering, going summer internships, all of which are pretty much required in terms of getting into us med schools. I can go on all day of how difficult it was for me to go things here,. But my point is that its better for me to go back to Australia as i am a citizen and i will have a better chance of gaining admission there. Plus by going back i will not be paying international student fees, saving money as opposed to doing med school here, if i ever did do it here. The debt incurred can be above 200K.

However i do share some concern if i come back to the states with the USMLE, i know US med students have to take it, but i hear that there is a difference version for FMG's, is this correct?

Also i am pretty sure that U syds reputation in the world is much higher than any Caribbean school could ever be
 
However i do share some concern if i come back to the states with the USMLE, i know US med students have to take it, but i hear that there is a difference version for FMG's, is this correct?

The USMLE FMGs take is identical to the USMLE US students take.

If you want to practice in the US, it's not the USMLE that will be the problem.

You can study for the USMLE yourself and do well if you're motivated. Where you are screwed is that you may not be able to get the reference letters you need or get to know enough people in the US to get you into a competitive program and/or program of your choice.....

A 280 with no one knowing who you are is useless compared to a 220 where all the staff in a program like you.

USyd is potentially than a Carribean school because it's not soley for profit. It will be easier getting electives in the US which translate into recommendation letters though for Carribean students.

Your clinical skills will likely be better as well if you go to any Australian medical school that has patient contact from day one.
 
I just want to add that I'm not sure why people are giving advice on things they haven't done yet.

I'm not saying you have to do everything in order to be able to give advice about things but speculating on certain subjects once you know a little bit about something is a dangerous thing.

I remember one poster who thought that all US students were nationally ranked based on their USMLE score. I don't even know how that false assumption even came to being. Disinformation really hurts people when they come to a forum expecting to get advice about really big issues.
 
..

A 280 with no one knowing who you are is useless compared to a 220 where all the staff in a program like you.

What if you had some "connections"...haha



driedcaribou, you seem to know a lot about the whole deal, are you doing medicine in Aus?
 
I think the moral of the story (ie. the various posts) is that Australian med school is suited to practicing in Australia, and American med school is suited to doing your USMLE and practicing in America. Anything beyond that depends on the individual university's course.

As a sidenote, a MD is Australia is a higher doctrate by thesis. The surgery equivalent is MS (Master of Surgery).
 
I think the moral of the story (ie. the various posts) is that Australian med school is suited to practicing in Australia, and American med school is suited to doing your USMLE and practicing in America.

Being at a US med school doesn't necessarily prepare you for the USMLE....


The MD in Australia, I thought, was only awarded after you obtained a doctorate... I did not think a Master's was enough to give you a MD title.
 
Australia has some of the best medical schools on the planet, several are listed among the top 20 worldwide. Regardless when you reenter the US system, many American PDs won't care what foreign medical school you attended. The real issue is your USMLE score and LORs, the higher your score the better your chance of securing your ideal residency, this is assuming you have glowing LORs as well. Its not incredibly hard for an IMG to get FM/IM, but if you want to specialize you will need a high USMLE score as well as glowing LORs.

That being said the program in Australia is made to train doctors for the Australian system, not the American one. Most North Americans tend to take the USMLE in later years, usually in year 3, many spend a couple of years as interns to increase their knowledge base.

Whether you go to the Caribbean, Australia, Ireland, UK, Israel, Europe, Asia, etc. for your medical degree, you will be an IMG, and will have to work harder than a comparable North American graduate to get the same residency spot.
In terms of logistics I thought the more reputable Caribbean schools are better for those who know for sure they want to work in the US. They offer USMLE oriented curriculums and US based rotations. I don't think Australian graduates have the same obvious stigma as Caribbean graduates, but we still have to work harder than our North American counterparts.

The Australian/British MBBS is the equivalent of a US MD. Traditionally most medical students began studies directly after high school whereas in the US you need a minimum of Bachelors degree.

I do envy most of my friends who got into North American medical schools, they are going to have a much easier time than I am with getting residencies.
 
No, it is called House MD, most people here just refer to it as "House". Have a look at channel 10's site about it:
http://www.ten.com.au/promo.aspx?promoID=318



That's a broad statement. Most of the degrees incorporate PBL into the curiculum, as I beleive they do in the US. The degree to which varies from institution to institution. Some are still mainly didactic

I saw the commerical on TEN, it displayed House's business card and read "House MBBS".

Back to the subject at hand, if a PD had a choice between a US graduate with a 240 and an Australian graduate with the same score the PD would probably pick the former. US students in many cases to get special treatment, life is not fair.
 
applying to residency right now, it's really really difficult to match back into the US from a foreign medical school. I see lots of (mostly south asian) parents sending their kids off to foreign countries right after high school to get a combined bachelor's/MD to "save" the two years. It's a good option for people who wouldn't have a shot at getting into an american school, but it's really not easy to come back to the US. if you want to do this, recognize that you're all but shutting the door to applying into any competitive specialty. IM, peds, and family are effectively your choices (not 100% true, but almost).

the nrmp put out some data from the 2005 match show difficult it is to match as an american grad and as a foreign grad.

www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf
 
Canadian and US Osteopathic medical students are in a special category, they are technically not IMGs in terms of residency matching. Both do phenomenally well in placing into tough residencies. I actually knew a Canadian who was doing Neurosurgery at one of the most prestigious US hospitals. I know a DO in a very prestigious Radiology program.
 
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