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MBBS VS MD: What are the differences

Discussion in 'Medical Students - MD' started by Ahsankmc, Aug 10, 2011.

  1. Ahsankmc

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    I am doing MBBS but I am interested in knowing what is the differences between MBBS and MD.

    Here is the detailed study program of MBBS
    The following are the exams MBBS students have to take.

    This is the detailed course overview of the MBBS Program in Pakistan.
    In addition to the above 5 years. there is a sixth year we call "House Job". It is a complete year of hospital practice as "House Officer".

    I want to know the details of MD. Thanks in advance to anyone who shares.
     
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  3. aSagacious

    Moderator Emeritus 7+ Year Member

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    You could go to any US med school website and click on curriculum to see an explicit list of coursework required.
     
  4. Bumbl3b33

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    :thumbup:
     
  5. paul411

    paul411 ANES
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    Gross generalization of US MD programs:

    • 2 years of content learning (books+lectures)
    • USMLE (US Medical Licensing Exam) Step 1 - tests everything you learned in the first two years
    • 2 years of clinical rotations

    More USMLE Exams (I'm not sure when Step 2 and 3 are taken)

    Then you graduate from medical school with your MD degree.

    Next you do 3+ years of residency (what you called "House Job") in whatever specialty you get accepted to.

    The curriculum of US medical schools varies by school. As aSag suggested, visit a schools website and find the curriculum for that particular school. Here's Harvard's curriculum as an example (because Harvard is all famous and stuff like).
     
  6. shadowfox87

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    http://hms.harvard.edu/ec_vqp.asp?Name_GUID={6B8AD192-2E96-4DE7-AD44-204685A121D4}
     
  7. Ahsankmc

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    I visited the Harvard Website, but it was kind of too complex for me.
    I didn't understand a lot of stuff there. The subject names were kind of too unfamiliar and all that. The problem is that we are not familiar with that system of education, where a student gets to choose what is he going to study next. We follow the old system where you are told that you will need to do this and this and this, and at this date, you are going to take the exam.

    I would like to know more about the US system of education. Not specific to medical schools, but in general.

    In addition, what are credits? There were a lot of subjects on the Harvard's website with some credit requirements. So what exactly these are.

    And is surgery included in MD?
     
  8. Concubine

    Concubine PDE5 inhibited
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    At U.S. schools students typically complete a bachelors degree in undergraduate work in a variety of disciplines (most people usually doing biology, chemistry, etc.) prior to attending medical school, with some required core coursework. Medical school is four years, with 2 years of didactic coursework that typically includes anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, histology, genetics, neuroanatomy, ethics/public health, pathology, microbiology, pharmacology, immunology, and generally some clinical coursework. 3rd and 4th year are clinical, generally with six or more core rotations that includes surgery, family medicine, internal medicine, psychiatry/neurology, OBG/GYN, and pediatrics. 4th year usually has a few required clerkships, but often is made up of electives.
     
  9. paul411

    paul411 ANES
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    An MD is roughly the equivalent of an MBBS degree

    I don't know much about other med schools but here's a one-page summary of the next 4 years for me at my medical school (for an MD degree): https://ispace.utmb.edu/departments/SOM-IMO/IMCinfo/AcademicCalendar1112.pdf

    And here's a textual summary (for UTMB):
    Here are the three major national licensing exams a US MD student eventually has to pass:

     
  10. Rollo

    Rollo Renowned Wolf
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    What's with the Islamic & Pakistani studies? Can you tell us more about that?
     
  11. ArcGurren

    ArcGurren only one will survive
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    Lol let's not even get started on this. The concept of religious/state/education separation is nonexistent there.
     
  12. Rollo

    Rollo Renowned Wolf
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    I'm just curious what they are taught in that course, and how it relates to medicine.
     
  13. DarkHorizon

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    Pakistan studies is sort of a history of Pakistan course, much of it contains false account of historic Events taking place between India and Pakistan. Half the course focuses on Kashmir and why it belongs to Pakistan and was occupied by India, things of that sort.

    Islamic studies focuses on Islamic history, some philosophy of Islam, but not much. It also covers important teachings of Islam with emphasis of medical ethics and Islam.

    Btw, i graduated high school from Pakistan in case yer wondering
     
  14. Rollo

    Rollo Renowned Wolf
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    Ok, I'm not even going to bother asking how studying a long-standing geographical war has anything to do with medicine because the absurdity of that topic as it relates to medicine doesn't even deserve a "Why are we studying this?"

    The second part about studying Islamic philosophy and its impact on medical-ethical issues, well that I can see how it relates to medicine. And it doesn't surprise me that only Islamic philosophy is taught when 97% of population is Muslim in that country.

    Now all this brings up the issue of how objective and unbiased a Pakistani medical graduate really is. Especially those who want to come practice medicine here. I'm not saying that America breeds the most objective and unbiased medical graduates but there is something to be said about attending medical school in a culture which promotes "melting pot" philosophy over one of biased, one-sided philosophy.

    And yet, people wonder why foreign grads are biased in residency selection process. Of course, not every country in the world is run by dictators and idealistic extremists. But why bother trying to sort out which foreign grad comes from a biased medical education and which foreign grad doesn't, when a program has a pick of home grown graduates who were taught in an unbiased system?
     
  15. Ahsankmc

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    Before I could provide answers to many questions posted here, a lot of other people have written some good posts. I really appreciate this.
    In Pakistan, every student, no matter what field he is studying in, has to study Islam until he completes 14 years of education. Similar is the case with Pakistan studies. It is the education policy here. The philosophy behind is that as Muslims (98% population is Muslim) we have some responsibility towards our religion and we should study what it tells. I must say here that nowadays students are more enthusiastic about this class because of the increasing propaganda against this religion in the entire world. Similar is the case with Pakistan studies. As a Pakistani we have some responsibility towards our country and we should know how was it made, who are our national heroes, what is our culture etc.

    If you ask what they teach us in these subjects, the answer is quite simple. In Islamic studies they teach Islam. The level of teachings depend upon the level at which it is taught. Like in 5th grade you get to know the basics such as what should we do, what we should not do based on teachings of Islam and stuff like that. At undergraduate level, there are some advanced lessons like the Islamic laws and Islamic society and Sayings of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) and how we should apply his teachings to our lives and teachings of the Holy Quran etc.
    In Pakistan studies we get to know what types of cultures are there in our country. What languages are spoken. etc.

    I would like to mention here a friend saying that most of the time Pakistan Studies teach hatred towards India. Its not like that. We have a history and we have the right to know it. We should know how our country was made. So there is nothing objectionable in it.

    Besides they never make these subjects a burden on you (at least in MBBS). If you want to study, well and good. If not, they will never fail you in the exam even if you submit an empty paper.

    If you say that studying Pakistan studies and Islamic studies create bias, I am afraid many people won't agree. Why would knowing your history make you biassed. And it is irrespective of the fact that your history tells you that your relations with your neighbor had been extremely bad. So what? If I say Germans shouldn't read their history (because of Hitler), then what you expect Germans to tell me.
    That's complete bulls**t. I don't know about Afghanistan, but at least this isn't the case in Pakistan. Yes there is a gender gap in our society, which most of us (Pakistanis) appreciate, but except that, there is nothing like that.
     
  16. aSagacious

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    Except for the women :rolleyes:
     
  17. Rollo

    Rollo Renowned Wolf
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    I think it's just a kink in the medical education there that you have to learn your country's history. Sure, it's fine to learn it in high school or college, but not in medical school. As you point out, it's not a burden on medical students there to learn it but it still has no place in curriculum.

    Studying Islam in medical school is different though. I appreciate that the students are willing to learn more about the correct Islamic worldview rather than the extremist worldview perpetrated by the brotherhood.

    However it creates a bias because you don't learn about other religions, and if you want to come practice in a "melting pot" culture you need to be cognizant of other worldviews. Now, I admit that many US students aren't well-informed about other worldviews either but majority of them are brought up in a culture where they have to learn to be respectful of others' worldviews.

    The fact is majority of your patients you will encounter in US will have different cultural background and worldviews. If you aren't brought up in a culture where open-mindedness and respect for others despite any fundamental differences is taught, encouraged, and practiced, then I think you will have a difficult time adjusting and dealing with patients.

    Bias is also generated when you encounter a non-Islamic non-Pakistani patient because you're taught to be proud of your country and your religion. Patriotism in itself is not bad but when it is taken to the extreme that it is integrated in a medical school curriculum, then it turns into idol worship and anything non-Pakistani or anti-Pakistani is automatically viewed with suspicion.

    Same with religion. Learning about your faith in itself isn't bad. But when the country takes it to the extreme when Christians and Hindus are thrown into jail for daring to speak out against Islam, then it becomes suspicious how much actual religious philosophy is taught versus how much dogma is shoved down your throat.

    All of this is, of course, moot if you don't plan on coming to practice in US. But once again, anyone reading this, I just wanted to highlight how easy it is for residency programs to favor American grads over foreign grads despite any lack of difference in board scores and other objective criteria.
     
  18. shadowfox87

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    It's the same thing when we have to take medical ethics. Their "Islamic studies" is probably just like an ethics course mixed in with Islamic principles and medical/Islamic law because let's face it more than 90% of their country is Islam.

    I do, however, agree, that this creates a bias, whether you're aware of it or not. Will this bias affect your practice in your country? Probably not. It will if you come to a country that is not Islam dominated.
     
  19. paul411

    paul411 ANES
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    I don't think people should be restricted to learning about only one religion (most probably their parents' religion). Everyone should be taught about all the major religions and their philosophies if we hope to have larger understanding among the people of various religions. Without learning about other religions, which also claim absolute divinely revealed truth, how can you even deem that yours is the absolute divinely revealed truth?

    As I said earlier, if religion is going to be taught in school, the basic concepts of all the major religious should be made known to students to at least attempt to provide an slightly unbiased view of other religions.

    Most religions (not just Islam), at some level, create an us-versus-them mentality, which, when taken to its logical extreme by extremists, often leads to violent outcomes.
     
  20. paul411

    paul411 ANES
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    It is certainly not impossible to learn about more than one religion in high school. Just one class covering one religion every month would be more than sufficient. You don't have to be a philosopher top understand the basic precepts of the major religions.

    Your analogy falls apart here. Unfortunately, there are parts of the holy books of Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism which can be interpreted as advocating violence against non-believers. It would be disingenuous to claim otherwise (because we have already witnessed their violent outcomes).
     
  21. ArcGurren

    ArcGurren only one will survive
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    This whole thread is making me roll my eyes so hard. If you only study one religion from a specific perspective of course you're going to bias your worldview around it. That's why I believe comparative religions/beliefs (including atheism/agnosticism) should be mandatory in college. I'm not even atheist/agnostic and I think this is pure balls.

    There is no reason whatsoever for a class like this, whether or not you live in Pakistan or anywhere else. And given that it's Pakistan of course it's going to be colored with a nasty political bias against India.
     
  22. sineapse

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    Back to the topic...an MBBS is a primary medical degree taken as an undergraduate and an MD is a primary medical degree taken as a postgraduate.
     
  23. Rollo

    Rollo Renowned Wolf
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    This thread has the potential to derail so I'm just going to try and stick to the differences between MBBS vs. MD rather than make it Pakistan vs. the world.

    But you have to face the facts that Pakistani government isn't the most open-minded and free government in the world. There are blasphemy laws for which Christians are constantly getting imprisoned on a regular basis. You mean to tell me that a kid brought up and taught in that culture isn't going to have some animosity towards Christians/Hindus?

    Of course, lot of religions claim exclusivity and that's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Here in US, there are no blasphemy laws and followers of one belief system aren't getting imprisoned for speaking out against followers of another belief system. Tolerance is taught here (sometimes poorly though) that you respect others' beliefs and don't humiliate or denigrate them while still maintaining exclusivity claim to your own (if your own worldview subscribes to it).

    In Pakistan, it's different. You're right that this may not be a true reflection of the nature of Islam, but when the government itself projects this "believe in Islam or else" image then I can't be too certain if the kids growing up in that country are biased or not. I guess I should use the world "tolerant" instead of bias because as you correctly point out, we all bring some sort of bias with us.

    Finally, I am going to reiterate my point again here that this all goes to show you why foreign grads aren't preferred in the residency selection process no matter their board scores. Some are going to jump to conclusions and claim this as "racist" but it's really weeding out applicants who are going to be proper fit to the medical system.

    Then again, I'm not a program director so my opinions should be taken with some grain of salt.
     
  24. RapplixGmed

    RapplixGmed Looking for the Ether
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    I agree with this statement in principle. However, the way I see it, the "moderate majority" in most parts of the world work very hard and have been very successful in suppressing the radical and violent elements in their society. I don't blame Islam for this in particular but there is something wrong about the way society is built in that part of the world in which this moderating influence has failed. You just don't see the public outrage by the common people to these acts of violence. You don't see the type of organized education backed by the government (including education about other religions and teaching about respect for other people's positions) to steer young people and poor people away from radical influence.

    It is a general rule that when the center is silent, the extremists will rule and they will abuse the society's most treasured beliefs. I don't believe that Islam is at fault; I believe that Islam has been taken advantage of. Similar things have happened with almost all major world religions in the past. A similar possibility was foreseen in America as well by Sinclair Lewis's when he said "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."
     
  25. Perrotfish

    Perrotfish Has an MD in Horribleness
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    Yes, I'm glad that insead of the dealing with the one religion bias of Pakistan I grew up in the American South, where multiculturalism is king.
     
  26. Singh

    Singh Senior Member
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    The M.B.B.S degree is used in UK and commonwealth countries and is equivalent to the M.D. degree which is used in USA, Canada and other European countries. The M.D. degree in UK and commonwealth is taken after the M.B.B.S and is a specialist degree, I think.

    I may be wrong, but am pretty sure this is how it works.
     
  27. Morsetlis

    Morsetlis I wish I were a dentist
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    That's how it works. The graduate ~PhD degree is either an MD or DM or DMed. The undergraduate MBBS is equivalent to an MD.

    However, upon coming to the states and obtaining/graduating from residency, many MBBS doctors affix MD to the end of the their names and nobody's the wiser. It has no relevance in a clinical setting, but it can be misleading in a research institution where actual DMed's are present (which, admittedly, are rare).
     
  28. Coastie

    Coastie Junior Member
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    Take your anti-American trolling elsewhere.

    Oh, and good luck getting into American GME. :laugh:

     
  29. Shoushu

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    Some state(s) allow one to write MD instead of MBBS.


    "Use of the M. D. Title: The Wisconsin Medical Society defends the use of the M.D. title by physicians who graduated with an M.B.B.S. and are licensed to practice medicine in Wisconsin.[8]" Maybe they think after one did all 3 USMLE steps and did residency, basically one is the same as MD.

    Many IMGs/US-IMGs, esp. true FMGs, believe it's ok to do so if in private practice, or else patients might be confused. When in academic places, one should write one's real degrees.
     
    #28 Shoushu, Sep 8, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2011
  30. OneTyme

    OneTyme Kickin' it ol' school
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    First of all, lmao at this.


    Second, I don't think that anybody answered OP's question about the meaning of 'credit'...

    A student receives one credit for each classroom hour that they have contact with a professor per week. Really this equates to each hour of lecture. So for every hour of class you have per week for a semester, fifteen weeks, you receive one credit.

    At my medical school this equates to roughly 26 credit hours per semester, plus 2 required elective credit hours per semster, plus a summer intensive of full time work for 6 weeks.

    That's 28 hours x 15 weeks = 420 classroom hours per semester plus a 6 week intensive= 240 hours-ish.

    That's about 1080 classroom hours per year for the first two years.

    The second two years equate to six-six week rotations (with a cap of about 80 hours per week) where in the student 'works' in the hospital setting learning the practice of medicine.... Roughly 2880 hours per year for the second two years.

    If my math is right (Don't hold me accountable, I was a Justice Major) that is about 8000 hours of contact learning, or actual time in a hospital or a classroom.

    This is not to mention the 180 credits it took me to graduate with an undergraduate major, minor, and prerequisites required for medical school entry. Or, 2,700 classroom hours.

    So for me, that is roughly 10,700 hours of classroom learning, post high school, before I will graduate with my MD.:wow:

    I'm not even going to think about the hours residency will require....

    I researched a few European programs as I was applying to medical school. It is my impression that medical education in Europe is roughly equivalent to the US MD although the hours are less per week and the program takes a bit longer to get through (basically both fulfill the same hours of training but the European programs spread it out over a longer period).

    Again I would like to advertise that I suck @$$ at math so take it for what it's worth.

    Hope that helps!
     
  31. TheLesPaul

    Physician 10+ Year Member

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    I don't get all the hate -- as long as they have the courses required by the WHO (which it seems like they do), why can't they teach whatever else they want alongside, be it Islam or Pakistani history or basket-weaving? Honestly, we have an art history elective at my med school; I realize as an elective it's not mandatory, but I don't see how anyone is being hurt by being taught extra information. You forget that the purpose of these med schools is not to produce doctors who will practice in the US, but doctors who will practice in that country. Even if it is biased... you think no one has any biases in education? I'd be surprised if there wasn't any bias, but that's still no cause for being offended.

    NB: I'm Indian and Christian, for what it's worth.
     

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