MCAT difficulty

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The only concrete evidence of stats not being the meat of a decision at the top schools is Stanford where an interview with the Dean of Admissions there stated that after IIs, stats aren't considered at all (they are just meant to see if you can handle the rigors, almost word for word). It is very likely that other top schools have similar policies whether removing stats from post-II completely to reducing it's contribution to the final decision. You can see that certain schools like HMS have very broad 10-90th percentile ranges which differ from schools such as WashU. Perhaps a reason for this is a difference in goal/vision; e.g. WashU wants to have the highest stat applicants (for whatever reason) vs HMS wants the most interesting people (for whatever reason). Btw, HMS at revisit this year said "we have a soft spot for interesting people."

As you go lower and lower, stats seem to matter more and more because schools at those ranks rarely get students with those academic credentials.

In terms of MCAT and the factors that go into the scores, I agree that innate intelligence gives you your "score cap" while work ethic and other factors help you climb towards that cap. Unfortunately, there are people that you meet along the road that just won't be able to understand a concept(s) no matter how hard they work. Others just can't utilize the knowledge they have to think in creative ways.

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The only concrete evidence of stats not being the meat of a decision at the top schools is Stanford where an interview with the Dean of Admissions there stated that after IIs, stats aren't considered at all (they are just meant to see if you can handle the rigors, almost word for word). It is very likely that other top schools have similar policies whether removing stats from post-II completely to reducing it's contribution to the final decision. You can see that certain schools like HMS have very broad 10-90th percentile ranges which differ from schools such as WashU. Perhaps a reason for this is a difference in goal/vision; e.g. WashU wants to have the highest stat applicants (for whatever reason) vs HMS wants the most interesting people (for whatever reason). Btw, HMS at revisit this year said "we have a soft spot for interesting people."

As you go lower and lower, stats seem to matter more and more because schools at those ranks rarely get students with those academic credentials.

In terms of MCAT and the factors that go into the scores, I agree that innate intelligence gives you your "score cap" while work ethic and other factors help you climb towards that cap. Unfortunately, there are people that you meet along the road that just won't be able to understand a concept(s) no matter how hard they work. Others just can't utilize the knowledge they have to think in creative ways.
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I'm very sorry you feel that way. You obviously have an opinion and are entitled to it. But as many people before have pointed out, it feels increasingly like you're arguing against a straw man. A 3.5/25 is simply not competitive and would be screened out anyway. Read my posts. I have never mentioned a 3.5/25. The OP asked about the difficulty of the MCAT and since he/she has an SDN account, it makes sense to answer based on the typical SDN user and not based on the "average" applicant in your eyes whose average scores aren't going to get him or her in.

I maintain, again, that statistics are useful only to determine whether you are prepared for the rigor of medical coursework. They are not useful past that. Someone who scores a 25 on their MCAT is not prepared for medical coursework - you know this because schools screen at that level. I'm saying that applicants with 3.5-3.6 GPA and 30+ MCAT can handle medical coursework and whether they get into mid-tier med schools depends on their ECs and other variables. Applicants from a 3.7-4.0 GPA and 37+ MCAT are all very intelligent and can definitely handle medical coursework. Top schools obviously use other factors than stats to select these applicants because you don't see a 4.0/40 average at Harvard.

At lower-tier schools, I have no quarrel with you. Stats are very important but even then, applicants don't get in based on stats alone.

I'm not saying that one should do ECs at the expense of GPA and MCAT. I'm saying that past a certain point, GPA and MCAT are not useful. You must make sure you're above the cutoff and from there, your other experiences play a big role. Just head on over to the Pre-Med forum and ask some of the former adcoms on there.

No, the bolded statement is plainly false as demonstrated by AAMC's own data. 90% or greater of students with uGPA/MCAT around 3.5/25 who get into medical school pass the USMLE Step I and become physicians. In fact, I guarantee you that, in terms of raw numbers, far more people make it into MD schools with 3.5/25 or below than 4.0/40 and above.

You are the one making an argument that is totally contrary to all the available data. Open your eyes and realize that the pre-med world is far larger than your isolated little corner.
 
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Come on. I understand there are disagreements here but was that comment necessary?

Sorry, but the rank elitism being demonstrated in this thread rankles me.

EDIT: I just realized the phrase "open your eyes" can be taken as being racist against East Asians. Totally not intended as I am East Asian myself.
 
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I often hear people saying "just crush the MCAT and you'll be in a good position to apply". Is it as simple as everyone makes the process out to be? I have a few friends who were always known for being pretty intelligent, and instead of crushing the MCAT, they ended up being crushed by it even after several attempts.

Just wondering what it really comes down to in order to "crush" this beast of a test. Does one's score eventually get capped based on intelligence, or is the quantity & quality of studying more of a factor in doing well?

I think this common quote of "just crush the mcat and you'll be in a good position to apply" on SDN is just mis phrased and overused. It should be "if you can crush the mcat you'll be in a good position to apply"

Like many on this thread have said, intelligence and deductive reasoning play a crucial role. Like most standardized tests. The only difference is the MCAT tests an incredible wide base of content knowledge, studying for the MCAT is the utmost definition of a situation that can be described by YMMV.

I have yet to take the real thing so my 2cents is most likely not even worth 2 cents.



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EDIT: I just realized the phrase "open your eyes" can be taken as being racist against East Asians. Totally not intended as I am East Asian myself.
LMAO
 
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No, the bolded statement is plainly false as demonstrated by AAMC's own data. 90% or greater of students with uGPA/MCAT around 3.5/25 who get into medical school pass the USMLE Step I and become physicians. In fact, I guarantee you that, in terms of raw numbers, far more people make it into MD schools with 3.5/25 or below than 4.0/40 and above.

The key is "who get into medical school." You have no way of knowing these applicants' ECs, personality, whether they're non-traditional, whether they did post-bacs, etc. I think you should critically evaluate the data before taking it a face value.

Also, more 3.5/25s make it in because there are more people with those stats who apply. 40 MCAT is not common. This is a child's argument. You also have no idea what those 3.5/25 people did to get in. I can guarantee you that there was something about them that stood out in terms of ECs or personality that made the med school want them. Or maybe they did a post-bacc since post-bacc grades are not included in undergrad GPA. Their stats didn't get them in. If anything, their ECs more than compensated for their lackluster stats.

For the last time, I am not making any case for admission to lower tier schools. You can argue that all you want - I will not respond. My point is that for admission to mid- and top-tier schools, stats get you in the door but past that, it's your interview, letters, ECs, etc. that make you or break you. Doesn't matter if you have a 4.0 and 40 if you can't show "why medicine" and "why this school." Believe what you want.
 
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lol although they are contributing valuable words in this thread, I find it at no coincidence that some of the highest MCAT scorers (>90% ile) are the ones doing most of the discussion lol @aldol16 @Lawper @MaxPlancker
 
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lol although they are contributing valuable words in this thread, I find it at no coincidence that some of the highest MCAT scorers (>90% ile) are the ones doing most of the discussion lol @aldol16 @Lawper @MaxPlancker

I honestly would love to believe that my MCAT score is sufficient to get me into a place like Harvard or WashU. But I'm not so naive as to think that. I know that my ECs need to be superb, I need to write a standout personal statement, I need to have glowing letters, and I need to outperform at interviews. That's just the reality of it.
 
To answer your original question, OP:

Yes, the MCAT is difficult. Factors involved with MCAT success include study time, study strategy, base knowledge, reading speed, innate intelligence, focus, and presence/lack of testing anxiety, to name a few. Some of these factors are immutable, so it makes sense to focus on improving the ones that aren't. Use resources (like SDN) to develop a study strategy. Devote time to studying and adjust your strategy based on practice exam results (your study strategy should include lots of practice exams, btw).

For most people, it's not as simple as "just crush the MCAT." But for most people who have succeeded in college science courses, it's also not impossible to score highly enough to get into a U.S. medical school (keeping in mind that this is just one part of the application).
 
Overall, what I'm saying is that whether you get into medical school at all depends on your stats but only up to a point - i.e. the point where you show that you can handle medical coursework.
This is very much contrary to the top 1-3% medians that are ubiquitous at top programs.

if Harvard or WashU really only cared about statistics, they could fill their entire class with 4.0/40 MCAT.
The math doesn't really work out on this. Only 0.5% of people make a 40+, and of those only a small fraction will have 4.0 GPAs to go with it. Even if we say the 3.8+ bin is half 4.0s you're looking at a pool of ~150 people. The med schools currently holding top 1-2% medians have a combined class size of over 1000 each year. They really couldn't get medians that high. A place like WashU at a 3.9/38 is already going very hard for stats.

I honestly would love to believe that my MCAT score is sufficient to get me into a place like Harvard or WashU. But I'm not so naive as to think that. I know that my ECs need to be superb, I need to write a standout personal statement, I need to have glowing letters, and I need to outperform at interviews. That's just the reality of it.
Well, from speaking with people with experience in admissions at WashU, I can tell you it's not the same reality for all applicants. According to one advisor 90% of personal statements are meh, 5% being terrible and 5% telling a very interesting life story that helps. You go into interview day with different interest ranks here and are adjusted up and down from interview day, not viewed as total equals coming in. A school claiming they use stats only to judge competency and then maintaining a median of 37-38 every year should seem odd.

Now, I do think there is more to admissions than just stats. But, the naive position is thinking everyone with the stats to handle med school (which is like a 3.6 / 30) is on equal footing for top programs as long as they are interesting and interview well. A 40 alone won't get you into WashU, but swapping a 30 for a 40 on an applicant can certainly change whether they are interviewed, and not because it predicts struggling to handle med school.
 
The math doesn't really work out on this. Only 0.5% of people make a 40+, and of those only a small fraction will have 4.0 GPAs to go with it. Even if we say the 3.8+ bin is half 4.0s you're looking at a pool of ~150 people. The med schools currently holding top 1-2% medians have a combined class size of over 1000 each year. They really couldn't get medians that high. A place like WashU at a 3.9/38 is already going very hard for stats.

I think you're using conservative stats. From what I could find, 86,000 people took the MCAT in 2011, which means 40+, again using your stat of 0.5%, would mean ~400 in that range. Do you know the yield for a place like Harvard? Like 75-80%? I'll ask you an honest question. Do you really think a 4.0/40 with minimal shadowing/volunteer/etc. is going to get into Harvard or WashU?

If your answer is yes, then we have nothing to discuss further. I simply believe they would not.

If your answer is no, then it must necessarily follow that stats don't get you into the top med schools. Other factors do. You already answered this with your statement that there is more to admissions than just stats. Where we differ is that you seem to think stats play a dominating role in admissions whereas I believe that it does not - it only serves as a measure of the level at which you are performing. For simplicity, we can say top schools want students who excel and mid- and low-tier schools want students who can handle medical coursework. The bar for the former is higher than the bar for the latter (say 35+ vs. 30+). These are two completely different admissions stories we're talking about so let's keep it clear for everyone else.

Well, from speaking with people with experience in admissions at WashU, I can tell you it's not the same reality for all applicants. According to one advisor 90% of personal statements are meh, 5% being terrible and 5% telling a very interesting life story that helps. You go into interview day with different interest ranks here and are adjusted up and down from interview day, not viewed as total equals coming in. A school claiming they use stats only to judge competency and then maintaining a median of 37-38 every year should seem odd.

I'm not saying top schools use stats only to judge whether students can handle medical coursework. I think in a response to you before, I noted that top schools likely use stats to judge whether students can excel in their program and whether they can become future leaders in the field. In that case, you need more than a 30. You need 35+ to show that you can excel in their program. Of those who have those scores, other factors decide whether you are admitted.

Now, I do think there is more to admissions than just stats. But, the naive position is thinking everyone with the stats to handle med school (which is like a 3.6 / 30) is on equal footing for top programs as long as they are interesting and interview well. A 40 alone won't get you into WashU, but swapping a 30 for a 40 on an applicant can certainly change whether they are interviewed, and not because it predicts struggling to handle med school.

You can continue arguing against a straw man if you would like. But again, if you read my response to your post above, I clearly noted that a 30 and a 40 are not the same for top schools because top schools use stats to assess whether you have the potential to become a leader in the field and whether you can excel. That's not the same as saying you have competency - this goes beyond that. I may not have been clear about this in some posts for the sake of brevity, but I am making it explicit now.

I will also say that my belief is grounded in stats from my own former undergraduate college which was one of the elite schools in which Harvard, WashU, and Yale were among the medical schools that extended the most offers to students. The average GPA of admitted students from my college to those med schools is lower than that of the average matriculant to those schools. If those schools wanted to fill their class with high stats, they could. But we do very well at those schools despite our lower stats which, to me, means that we are viewed in the same light as applicants with higher stats. In other words, our stats showed that we are able to handle the rigor of medical coursework at the level of those schools because our stats were within the right range (as I initially said, there is little difference between a 3.7 and 4.0 student) and other factors resulted in admission.

This whole discussion has gone on a lot longer than I intended it to. I'm here only to speak my own beliefs. You can believe them or not, but I stick by them based on my experience with grading courses, teaching, and interacting with support staff from my former undergraduate institution.
 
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I think you're using conservative stats. From what I could find, 86,000 people took the MCAT in 2011, which means 40+, again using your stat of 0.5%, would mean ~400 in that range. Do you know the yield for a place like Harvard? Like 75-80%? I'll ask you an honest question. Do you really think a 4.0/40 with minimal shadowing/volunteer/etc. is going to get into Harvard or WashU?

If your answer is yes, then we have nothing to discuss further. I simply believe they would not.

If your answer is no, then it must necessarily follow that stats don't get you into the top med schools. Other factors do. You already answered this with your statement that there is more to admissions than just stats. Where we differ is that you seem to think stats play a dominating role in admissions whereas I believe that it does not - it only serves as a measure of the level at which you are performing. For simplicity, we can say top schools want students who excel and mid- and low-tier schools want students who can handle medical coursework. The bar for the former is higher than the bar for the latter (say 35+ vs. 30+). These are two completely different admissions stories we're talking about so let's keep it clear for everyone else.
There were closer to 100k in 2014, so 500 with a 40+, but only 300 would have a 3.8+ (so conservatively we could estimate 150 with a 4.0).

My argument is that stats are necessary but not sufficient. I think someone can have good shadowing, volunteering and research, a 30 MCAT that predicts success, and get no love from somewhere like WashU. Swap the 30 for a 40 and now I would predict admission. Like I said in my first post, I think they do require a decent package to go with the stats, but certainly do select for high numbers and take decent 4.0/40 above very good 3.6/30.

Of those who have those scores, other factors decide whether you are admitted.
We will have to agree to disagree here, I think a 42 often has advantage over a 35 ceteris paribus. I don't think this is true at all top programs (take UCSF for example, they actually have a median of about 34-35 between years) but for a place like WashU or Penn or others holding 37-38 medians, the few extra points beyond a 35 can matter.

I will also say that my belief is grounded in stats from my own former undergraduate college which was one of the elite schools in which Harvard, WashU, and Yale were among the medical schools that extended the most offers to students. The average GPA of admitted students from my college to those med schools is lower than that of the average matriculant to those schools. If those schools wanted to fill their class with high stats, they could. But we do very well at those schools despite our lower stats which, to me, means that we are viewed in the same light as applicants with higher stats. In other words, our stats showed that we are able to handle the rigor of medical coursework at the level of those schools because our stats were within the right range (as I initially said, there is little difference between a 3.7 and 4.0 student) and other factors resulted in admission.
There is an alternative explanation - it's not that say, a Princeton 3.7 is the same as a Princeton 4.0, but rather that a Princeton 3.7 is the same as a 4.0 from a random unknown college. The average admitted is lower than the med school median because you're getting rigor/rep boosted, but this compares different populations. Within a top school population, the 4.0s have more success than the 3.7s when applying, as do the 40+ compared to 35s (at least from WashU internal data).
 
My argument is that stats are necessary but not sufficient. I think someone can have good shadowing, volunteering and research, a 30 MCAT that predicts success, and get no love from somewhere like WashU. Swap the 30 for a 40 and now I would predict admission. Like I said in my first post, I think they do require a decent package to go with the stats, but certainly do select for high numbers and take decent 4.0/40 above very good 3.6/30.

We have no disagreement here. I'm not comparing a 40 MCAT to a 30 MCAT at a top school. I never was and I apologize if I gave you the impression that I was. I would argue that the 30 MCAT would get rejected at a top school unless that applicant had something absolutely stellar on his or her application like a Rhodes scholarship or something like that. But I would argue that a 35 and a 40 applicant to WashU would be determined by other factors, not by their score. Sure, the 40 might be preferred, but I would argue that that preference is slight and easily overcome.

We will have to agree to disagree here, I think a 42 often has advantage over a 35 ceteris paribus. I don't think this is true at all top programs (take UCSF for example, they actually have a median of about 34-35 between years) but for a place like WashU or Penn or others holding 37-38 medians, the few extra points beyond a 35 can matter.

Yes, agree to disagree. Also note that 50% of the class is necessarily below the median. So yeah, a 38 median is impressive, but it's a median.

There is an alternative explanation - it's not that say, a Princeton 3.7 is the same as a Princeton 4.0, but rather that a Princeton 3.7 is the same as a 4.0 from a random unknown college. The average admitted is lower than the med school median because you're getting rigor/rep boosted, but this compares different populations. Within a top school population, the 4.0s have more success than the 3.7s when applying, as do the 40+ compared to 35s (at least from WashU internal data).

I'm surprised that WashU has data that separates 3.7s from 4.0s and, say, 37 from 43. I have data from my undergrad college, which lumps those bins together because applicants' success rates within the school were indistinguishable. In other words, I'm saying that based on the data I'm looking at, a 3.7 from, say, Princeton is in fact just as successful as a 4.0 from Princeton, ceteris paribus.
 
agree to disagree
I know somewhere, deep inside, the philosophy major inside you cringes every time you have to say this ;)
 
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But I would argue that a 35 and a 40 applicant to WashU would be determined by other factors, not by their score. Sure, the 40 might be preferred, but I would argue that that preference is slight and easily overcome.
I can tell you freshman year we saw a chart showing interview and admit rates per MCAT, and that 40+ had higher rates than 35. It's all a gradient. There is no magic cutoff at 30 and 35 where you hit binary switches from "likely to struggle" to "likely to pass" or from there, to "all equally likely to excel"

I'm surprised that WashU has data that separates 3.7s from 4.0s and, say, 37 from 43. I have data from my undergrad college, which lumps those bins together because applicants' success rates within the school were indistinguishable. In other words, I'm saying that based on the data I'm looking at, a 3.7 from, say, Princeton is in fact just as successful as a 4.0 from Princeton, ceteris paribus.
So you can see the data groups broken into 3.6-3.8 / 35 and 3.8-4.0 / 40+ and know they do not differ? Or you see a lumped bin and assume it's presented that way due to insignificant difference?
 
I feel like the horse has been beaten enough guys
 
So you can see the data groups broken into 3.6-3.8 / 35 and 3.8-4.0 / 40+ and know they do not differ? Or you see a lumped bin and assume it's presented that way due to insignificant difference?

No, you can imagine plotting GPA bins on the y-axis and MCAT bins on the x-axis like the MCAT tables and then with admission rates in each of the slots created by this scheme. The top bins are like 3.7+ for GPA and 37+, I think, for MCAT. The reason I believe there's no within-group difference is because I've interacted with many past applicants, either as friends and colleagues or as former students of mine, who have run the gamut with scores. From my own observations and discussions, those with 3.7s get into top programs at similar rates as those with 4.0s (taking into account there are far fewer 4.0s than 3.7s). This is anecdotal, of course, but I have interacted with many applicants as both friend and mentor.
 
No, you can imagine plotting GPA bins on the y-axis and MCAT bins on the x-axis like the MCAT tables and then with admission rates in each of the slots created by this scheme. The top bins are like 3.7+ for GPA and 37+, I think, for MCAT. The reason I believe there's no within-group difference is because I've interacted with many past applicants, either as friends and colleagues or as former students of mine, who have run the gamut with scores. From my own observations and discussions, those with 3.7s get into top programs at similar rates as those with 4.0s (taking into account there are far fewer 4.0s than 3.7s). This is anecdotal, of course, but I have interacted with many applicants as both friend and mentor.
I can respect feeling strongly about your own experiences. For the WashU dataset I have, you see gains across bins fully to the maxes shown at 39+ and 3.8+, but I also have my share of anecdotes (like people getting full rides to one Top 10 while rejected from a similar one) that show you can't know what to predict per each individual and school!

I feel like the horse has been beaten enough guys
Hey man we still get monthly debates on affirmative action, DO vs MD, differences between colleges, healthcare systems etc...this topic should be feeling half-dead at worst
 
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I can respect feeling strongly about your own experiences. For the WashU dataset I have, you see gains across bins fully to the maxes shown at 39+ and 3.8+, but I also have my share of anecdotes (like people getting full rides to one Top 10 while rejected from a similar one) that show you can't know what to predict per each individual and school!

How large are the gains as you go up from the 2 closest increments to the top MCAT scores? So like from 35-36 to 37-38 to 39+? If it's something like 86% to 89% to 94%, I'm not sure that would be significant, especially since the sample size is likely to get smaller and smaller the higher you get anyway.
 
How large are the gains as you go up from the 2 closest increments to the top MCAT scores? So like from 35-36 to 37-38 to 39+? If it's something like 86% to 89% to 94%, I'm not sure that would be significant, especially since the sample size is likely to get smaller and smaller the higher you get anyway.
Bin
Percent admitted
number in bin

33-35 36-38 39-45
80% 89% 96%
346 214 74

3.80-4.00 3.60-3.79 3.40-3.59
95% 89% 82%
210 215 247

You can see it on the AMCAS table too of course, with thousands in the bins, that you still have gains up to 39+ and up to 3.8+.

All of this strikes me as a bit ridiculous, I should add. I seriously doubt a 38 predicts a better doctor or leader of their field than a 34. But I do think many top schools have a significant preference for score gains beyond 35.
 
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The AAMC has been quoted of advising schools that those who score at or above the 50th percentile, statistically speaking, are "capable" of doing well on the step.

I don't have the reference nor do I know if that simply implies a passing score, but I would assume it does.

It's all about whose incentives you are asking about. The AAMC most likely means "very likely to pass Step 1 in a single attempt" because to the AAMC producing capable physicians is all that really matters.

To the medical school, however, as @efle mentioned, the goal might be different; namely, the goal might be to produce the most "impressive" match list possible, or increase their USNWR ranking.
 
EDIT: I just realized the phrase "open your eyes" can be taken as being racist against East Asians. Totally not intended as I am East Asian myself.

Found the millennial.
 
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The MCAT is difficult no doubt. But here are the things that make it less difficult

1. Knowing the content on the exam. ( Use any a set of prep books and then finish up with the actual content list from AAMC)
2. Understanding the exam itself ( Take practice exams to know how the exam itself is. Knowing content but not being able to understand passages is useless.)
3. Ability to learn from mistakes ( When you take a practice exam, spend your best reviewing it and learning WHY you missed a question and preventing it in the future)
4. Treating it like a job. ( whenever you have free time, look in the SDN mcat forum, mcat subreddit. This singlehandedly improved my studying for the MCAT significantly. You are able to know what works and what doesn't)
5. Realizing that it is a marathon and not a sprint. ( Don't burn out, take your time studying each day and if you feel you cant study any more, then don't.)
6. Don't get neurotic and start comparing your scores with others. ( This leads to you getting frustrated and focusing less on your studying which leads you down a spiral of madness)
7. Realizing that the test date is NOT final. ( If you feel that you are not ready by the time you are scheduled to take the exam, reschedule or void! Don't be pressured into taking it when not ready)
8. Ask questions! ( you don't know everything. Get that ingrained into your head. The sooner you start asking questions, the sooner you will improve)
9. Don't just study your strong areas and neglect your weak areas! ( we are discouraged and feel less motivated to study stuff we are bad in. This leads you to ignore your weak areas)
10. Anki ( There are mixed opinions regarding if this is good. For me, I found it was good to reinforce the content and then apply it in practice exams)
 
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Talking about "top schools" as a batch isn't very productive since each school has its own biases and goals for the incoming class composition. Clearly WashU seems to favor high stat applicants more than other top schools. Also, applicants with top stats often have very impressive ECs so that can also contribute to the impression that schools favor high stat applicants.
 
Talking about "top schools" as a batch isn't very productive since each school has its own biases and goals for the incoming class composition. Clearly WashU seems to favor high stat applicants more than other top schools. Also, applicants with top stats often have very impressive ECs so that can also contribute to the impression that schools favor high stat applicants.
I think it's safe to say the entire set of schools that maintains 37-38 medians is not only using stats as a competency check.

I also don't know that I agree about EC quality trending upwards with academics at least in my circle of premed friends. I know people that are published and running outreach programs in low 30s range and very high stats people without anything remarkable.
 
lol although they are contributing valuable words in this thread, I find it at no coincidence that some of the highest MCAT scorers (>90% ile) are the ones doing most of the discussion lol @aldol16 @Lawper @MaxPlancker
Well I think its more the fact that I've been through the application process, interviewed at almost all top 20s, and am going to HMS this fall. Before the application cycle, I too thought there was more of an emphasis on stats. However, after attending interviews, talking with interviewees and admissions staff, attending revisit and meeting my future classmates, I really realized that the key to the best of the best schools isn't stats. Admissions is a topic that I'm very interested in and during revisit as I talked to faculty interviewers & adcoms over lunch/dinner/etc, I realized that they really really didn't think stats were that important past a certain point.

Think of top schools as proud boastful parents. They want to adopt the kids that will enable them to brag the most. "Ohhh we have the first African American President! All of the Supreme court justices are from yale or harvard. Oh sweet the new surgeon general is from our school! Wooo! We have an olympian, be sure to watch Rio 2016!" What enables and/or gives schools the best chances of being able to be proud in these ways is not through stats but rather a past history of achievement and distinction. There's just not enough basis to warrant treating high stats as the best potential--I can almost guarantee that schools would put a huge emphasis on stats if there was a clear link between having a 4.0/42+ MCAT and winning a nobel prize (or whatever other achievement). The biggest achievements in history aren't exactly from the people who had the best academics on paper...e.g. nobel prizes are often won through a lot of luck being in the right place at the right time and crazy work ethic and creativity. I'd much rather pick someone with a 3.8/35 over a 4.0/41 if that 3.8/35 demonstrated through LORs accolades etc that their creativity in the lab was phenomenal.

It's kinda hard to wrap your head around / convince yourself until you go through the cycle with lots of top schools especially because most people who think their nonnumeric parts of the app are strong really aren't as stellar as they think. This (arguably falsely) leads to them thinking that stats means too much when they don't see the desired results.
 
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I think it's safe to say the entire set of schools that maintains 37-38 medians is not only using stats as a competency check.

I also don't know that I agree about EC quality trending upwards with academics at least in my circle of premed friends. I know people that are published and running outreach programs in low 30s range and very high stats people without anything remarkable.
Yes actually in my own experience in real life, my friends with the highest stats actually don't have the most remarkable ECs. However, I think it is "safe" to say that applicants with decent stats 3.7/36+ likely have better ECs on average than those with lower stats. Guess I was a bit ambiguous about "top stats" in that post.
 
All of this strikes me as a bit ridiculous, I should add. I seriously doubt a 38 predicts a better doctor or leader of their field than a 34. But I do think many top schools have a significant preference for score gains beyond 35.

Thank you for including the data. My experience has been similar to @MaxPlancker with respect to how much stats matter. I once also thought that stats mattered a lot and devoted a lot of wasted energy towards worrying about it. I now understand that stats don't matter as long as you're in the right range for the school you want, i.e. 35-top for top-tier, 32-35 or so for mid-tier, and so on. They're interested in whether your stats indicate that you can handle the coursework at their school and succeed. The other factors serve as predictors of whether you will become a future leader and innovator. The reason Harvard is famous is not because it can boast that its students have high GPA/MCAT but rather that it can boast its students have gone on to become leaders of medicine, made monumental discoveries, undertook firsts in surgeries, etc. These are hard to predict, of course, but a student's ECs, research, personality, LORs, etc. all go a long way towards predicting these factors and are, I would argue, much better predictors than stats alone.
 
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. I seriously doubt a 38 predicts a better doctor or leader of their field than a 34. But I do think many top schools have a significant preference for score gains beyond 35.

I seriously doubt even a 35 is significantly better than a 30. I wonder if we were to take all the DO students that currently exist and move them to MD schools, we would see any difference in patient outcomes. My bet is not significantly at all. You don't have to be that good to do this.
 
I seriously doubt even a 35 is significantly better than a 30. I wonder if we were to take all the DO students that currently exist and move them to MD schools, we would see any difference in patient outcomes. My bet is not significantly at all. You don't have to be that good to do this.
Eh debatable on what you mean by significantly better. I'd say that it is possible to consistently score above certain thresholds before luck comes into play a lot more. I think the difference between 30 and 35 is quite significant in terms of how well the student has a grasp of the material, can think in flexible ways, and is a good test taker. So yes in terms of clinical outcomes, not likely to see a noticeable difference between the two scorers.

Patient outcomes--yep probably not a noticeable difference in outcomes. A lot of clinical medicine is monkey work (really but maybe not politically correct) after a bit of experience...
 
I seriously doubt even a 35 is significantly better than a 30. I wonder if we were to take all the DO students that currently exist and move them to MD schools, we would see any difference in patient outcomes. My bet is not significantly at all. You don't have to be that good to do this.

30 vs 35 is much more significant that a 34 vs 38.

30 is 79th percentile where as 35 is 96th percentile. A 17 percentile difference.

34 is 94th percentile where as 38 is 98th percentile. A 4 percentile difference.

You have to get many more questions correct to see a 17 percentile difference and it really shows 2 students of different caliber.

This goes back to the discussion where after a certain point, the gains in score see diminishing returns.
 
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30 vs 35 is much more significant that a 34 vs 38.

30 is 79th percentile where as 35 is 96th percentile. A 17 percentile difference.

34 is 94th percentile where as 38 is 98th percentile. A 4 percentile difference.

You have to get many more questions correct to see a 17 percentile difference and it really shows 2 students of different caliber.

This goes back to the discussion where after a certain point, the gains in score see diminishing returns.
This could also explain why some schools use stats as an indicator of readiness more so than a huge factor in admissions. A school having a 10-90th percentile range of 33-40 is really only a 10 percentile difference of MCAT scores at most.
 
30 vs 35 is much more significant that a 34 vs 38.

30 is 79th percentile where as 35 is 96th percentile. A 17 percentile difference.

34 is 94th percentile where as 38 is 98th percentile. A 4 percentile difference.

You have to get many more questions correct to see a 17 percentile difference and it really shows 2 students of different caliber.

This goes back to the discussion where after a certain point, the gains in score see diminishing returns.

I dont get what your point is. I am saying that EVEN a 17 percent difference is probably meaningless for how well a person can be as a doctor.
 
I dont get what your point is. I am saying that EVEN a 17 percent difference is probably meaningless for how well a person can be as a doctor.

Unless you have proof to that statement, i am gonna say that is false.

That would make the MCAT an useless exam.

Also, what would you consider to be a big enough difference to show how well a person can be a doctor?
 
Unless you have proof to that statement, i am gonna say that is false.

That would make the MCAT an useless exam.

Also, what would you consider to be a big enough difference to show how well a person can be a doctor?

I am asking you. Do you think that if we moved all DO students into MD schools, we would see any difference in patient outcomes
 
I am asking you. Do you think that if we moved all DO students into MD schools, we would see any difference in patient outcomes

I don't know about the curriculum, admission criteria to comment. nice deflection though lol
 
I don't know about the curriculum, admission criteria to comment. nice deflection though lol

What? How is it a deflection at all? All I want is a straight answer. If we moved students who score significantly less on the MCAT into MD schools, would we see any difference?

Even better, do you think there is any difference in outcomes from a no name med school and Harvard graduates?
 
What? How is it a deflection at all? All I want is a straight answer. If we moved students who score significantly less on the MCAT into MD schools, would we see any difference?

Even better, do you think there is any difference in outcomes from a no name med school and Harvard graduates?

I don't know about the question of physician competence but that is not what the MCAT is there for. The MCAT exists for one or both of two reasons: 1) assess academic readiness for medical school and the associated professional/licensing exams that come with it and 2) differentiate between applicants during admissions.

We also shouldn't get our heads so far up our assess that we pretend that standardized exams do not mean anything. They certainly do measure important things. To medical schools, one of those things is the ability to succeed on future exams which will to some extent also determine how much prestige, power, or money their graduates will be able to obtain by competing for the most prestigious or competitive positions after graduating from medical school.
 
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I don't know about the question of physician competence but that is not what the MCAT is there for. The MCAT exists for one or both of two reasons: 1) assess academic readiness for medical school and the associated professional/licensing exams that come with it and 2) differentiate between applicants during admissions.

We also shouldn't get our heads so far up our assess that we pretend that standardized exams do not mean anything. They certainly do measure important things. To medical schools, one of those things is the ability to succeed on future exams which will to some extent also determine how much prestige, power, or money their graduates will be able to obtain by competing for the most prestigious or competitive positions after graduating from medical school.

Everything you stated is circular logic. We need standardized exams so we can look good for admissions programs which value standardized tests. I am not saying abandon standardized tests. I am saying that lets not pretend like any of it matters when it comes to having better medical care.

The MCAT and the STEP and even elite residencies probably have no correlation with patient outcomes.
 
Everything you stated is circular logic. We need standardized exams so we can look good for admissions programs which value standardized tests. I am not saying abandon standardized tests. I am saying that lets not pretend like any of it matters when it comes to having better medical care.

The MCAT and the STEP and even elite residencies probably have no correlation with patient outcomes.

I dont have any data to confirm or deny those claims, other than being at risk for failing medical school or receiving poor clinical evaluations are somewhat predicted by standardized exams, those are definitely poor predictors of being a good clinician, and that is one reason why we are interested in using them. It is not circular to say that standardized exams are valuable because the profession is filled with other standardized exams, they all serve a purpose. How well or to what extent they serve a certain purpose is a further question to be evaluated on an individual basis but I very, very strongly doubt that MCAT, STEP, and (especially) residency placement have NO correlation with one's aptitude to be a physician. It's just an absolutely ridiculous claim. I'd be interested if anyone had data on the subject though.
 
Is there any data on DO patient outcomes versus MD outcomes? That will tell the story. Worse MCAT. maybe worse step scores. Similar training. Similar outcomes.
 
The MCAT and the STEP and even elite residencies probably have no correlation with patient outcomes.

Where you do your residency can have a large difference in your competency. Surgical outcomes are very much correlated with the surgeon's experience with that procedure (and the focus of some recent NEJM, JAMA, Medscape articles). Going to middle of nowhere community program means that you may not have exposure to a diverse range of pathologies. When doctors deal with conditions that are too far out of their level of experience, they hurt people. That is why some doctors are advocating to make it so that a surgeon cannot perform certain surgeries if they haven't done X number in the past year. Why do you think zebras get referred out from community hospitals and sent to academic centers? As a doctor, what you don't know will hurt people. And you can't just switch one doctor for another unless it is only a bread and butter case.

And you can't just compare a MD grad to DO. A DO with great clinical training will be better than a MD with poor training. And vice versa. A solid MCAT correlates with a solid STEP score which correlates with matching into a solid residency. So in that sense, a higher MCAT likely indirectly correlates with better outcomes because it means you are more likely to get good clinical training (but there can be many exceptions).

I agree with you that it isn't because of a higher MCAT score that someone is more competent. But because we have finite resources, the better you do, the more likely you are to have access to the best clinical training, which will create a difference in competency
 
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What? How is it a deflection at all? All I want is a straight answer. If we moved students who score significantly less on the MCAT into MD schools, would we see any difference?

Even better, do you think there is any difference in outcomes from a no name med school and Harvard graduates?

1) This is entirely hypothetical and so the answer to your question would be completely opinion-based and indefensible. Even your answer would be completely opinions-based.

2) Yes, but not for the reasons you think. The Harvard graduate would likely have access to better residency programs and thus receive better training. Thus, he or she would be in a better position to enact better patient outcomes, probabilistically speaking.
 
2) Yes, but not for the reasons you think. The Harvard graduate would likely have access to better residency programs and thus receive better training. Thus, he or she would be in a better position to enact better patient outcomes, probabilistically speaking.

Is there actually evidence that MGH residents have better outcomes than crap-tier residents outcomes? At face value most people would say of course that has to be true but i would probably surprised if top program doctors killed less people significantly than community hospital doctors.
 
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Is there actually evidence that MGH residents have better outcomes than crap-tier residents outcomes?

One study - not MGH specifically but with ranking of specific tier residency programs in obstetrics in NY and FL: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=184623

Doesn't answer your question specifically and to my knowledge, there hasn't been similar work done since then in the other residencies but this one should be interesting to you.
 
Is there actually evidence that MGH residents have better outcomes than crap-tier residents outcomes? At face value most people would say of course that has to be true but i would probably surprised if top program doctors killed less people significantly than community hospital doctors.

This is such a poor way to measure the efficacy of training one physician to the next. Outcomes will not only be dictated by the physician but by their specialty, patient base, what kinds of cases they see, etc. To do this kind of comparison you would need hundreds of head-to-head comparisons of physicians with similar if not identical practices but with different training. The kind they use to study NP performance in primary care.
 
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