md-2020's guide to getting into medical school for sub-par STEM students

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efle said:
I agree there's nothing wrong with taking an easy major to do well. I just think its messed up that that is how this works. Students are essentially putting themselves at a disadvantage if they seek a challenge or dive into an interesting topic outside their comfort zone.
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I don't see anything wrong with it either. I just think it's better to major in something you'd enjoy, which is not always the easier path.
 
md-2020 said:
Realistically the only things you could do with those science degrees is bench research and maybe teaching, which quite frankly in today's academia sucks. Openings are also hard AF to come by, bc of cheap adjuncts. Psych can let you do anything, even if you don't end up being a clinical psych/therapist (which pays surprisingly well and has a good lifestyle).
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I don't know about psych degree's, sure you can do something but from what I hear it's a "good luck finding a job" sort of thing when you graduate. Plus psych is a joke of a major. I agree that the job market with a biology or biochem degree kind of sucks. When I was worried I wasn't going to be accepted into med school I started looking at what I could do with my bio degree. I found out that I'm kind of screwed, doing mostly grunt work with no real responsibility or critical thinking unless you pursue a higher degree.
 
get a degree in business and or finance and be a pre-med at a state school. Take one pre-med course sequence (2 sems of bio/orgo/chem/physics) over the summer. Free up time to study for MCAT and crush the EC game. If pre-med doesn't work out, you have just about the most applicable major to get a job. Psych/Sociology/English, as easy as they may be at most places, will not do you any favors in the job market (if pre-med doesn't work out) unless you went to a top public school/ivy.

Edit: do research and get credit for it (thus getting As on BCPM) and take a lighter course load.
 
Cyberdyne 101 said:
I don't see anything wrong with it either. I just think it's better to major in something you'd enjoy, which is not always the easier path.
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It is also worth noting that this is good advice for the vast majority of premeds (i.e. the ones who are not 100% sure about medicine). For that reason I majored in BME, one of the majors @md-2020 says to avoid. I was not at a grade inflating school and I still graduated with above a 3.9. It is doable but just takes more work. But I also graduated with a degree that essentially guaranteed me a very comfortable job. Yes yes. You can take the shiny path surrounded by daisies and puppies to have an easy path or you can do what interests you and be happy and passionate throughout undergrad despite the assumed greater difficulty. FWIW I think I did better in BME than I could have in psych, bio, or some "easier" major because it played into my passions and kept me from taking classes I wasn't interested in and therefore wouldn't try as hard in.
 
@claduva94 congrats on crushing BME! But for many students, no matter how much interest, it is impossible to 3.9 BME. You wouldn't disagree with that, right? It's not always just about how hard you work, everyone has limitations
 
claduva94 said:
It is also worth noting that this is good advice for the vast majority of premeds (i.e. the ones who are not 100% sure about medicine). For that reason I majored in BME, one of the majors @md-2020 says to avoid. I was not at a grade inflating school and I still graduated with above a 3.9. It is doable but just takes more work. But I also graduated with a degree that essentially guaranteed me a very comfortable job. Yes yes. You can take the shiny path surrounded by daisies and puppies to have an easy path or you can do what interests you and be happy and passionate throughout undergrad despite the assumed greater difficulty. FWIW I think I did better in BME than I could have in psych, bio, or some "easier" major because it played into my passions and kept me from taking classes I wasn't interested in and therefore wouldn't try as hard in.
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your ITA email is baller.
 
It's one thing hearing this type of strategy from pre-meds. It's another from ADCOMs and I actually remember Law2Doc about a year or so ago kind of just reflecting on everything in a hypothetical type of tone was talking about the most optimal path for a pre-med. Here is what he came up with.

a) Major in something easy but where your degree can land you a legitimate secondary career if medicine doesn't work out. Accounting was a common one. A social science if you are interested in law school was another. Finance depending on school could easily fall under this.
b) After you graduate go back home to a State U to take your pre-reqs. Don't overload.
c) Give yourself enough time to do this, boost your volunteering and altruism, and study for the MCAT.

This takes care of multiple things for you. You maximize your time to study for the MCAT. You maximize your GPA. You can make the most out of your college experience in a more traditional sense not having to worry about enduring to the very end to fight for your grades in science classes, and replacing that with more in the way of EC's and just pure fun. You can specifically focus on several pre-reqs, go all in on these, and if you ace these, you are in solid shape with a good MCAT Score. And perhaps most importantly, if medicine doesn't work out, you have set yourself up with a solid secondary path to pursue as a career.
 
efle said:
But top 20 adcoms on here have repeatedly said they care very little whether you studied poetry vs chemical engineering
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Yah I was kid

Poetry is more useful than ChemE as a doctor anyway
 
md-2020 said:
@claduva94 congrats on crushing BME! But for many students, no matter how much interest, it is impossible to 3.9 BME. You wouldn't disagree with that, right? It's not always just about how hard you work, everyone has limitations
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You are absolutely correct. I just don't think it is possible to make a hard and fast generalization about "easy" majors as that will vary from person to person.
 
claduva94 said:
You are absolutely correct. I just don't think it is possible to make a hard and fast generalization about "easy" majors as that will vary from person to person.
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Agreed, this is, after all, a forum entitled "md-2020's guide to getting into medical school for sub-par STEM students"
 
efle said:
But top 20 adcoms on here have repeatedly said they care very little whether you studied poetry vs chemical engineering
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I'm sorry, but I have to be that dbag for a minute because I see this every. ****ing. day.

th


AdCom= Admissions Committee (ie multiple people)
AdCom member=Admissions Committee member (ie an individual)
 
BurghMed said:
Agreed, this is, after all, a forum entitled "md-2020's guide to getting into medical school for sub-par STEM students"
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I'm not even sure you can make the generalization that someone is entirely sub-par in STEM though. It's a very broad field and it is unlikely someone can't excel somewhere.
 
claduva94 said:
I'm not even sure you can make the generalization that someone is entirely sub-par in STEM though. It's a very broad field and it is unlikely someone can't excel somewhere.
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There is a broad field of material, true. But they all rely on overlapping cognitive abilities that not everyone possesses a natural inkling for.
 
ZedsDed said:
There is a broad field of material, true. But they all rely on overlapping cognitive abilities that not everyone possesses a natural inkling for.
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If that was true they wouldn't have a prayer in med school, as there are very intense science classes here.
 
claduva94 said:
If that was true they wouldn't have a prayer in med school, as there are very intense science classes here.
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No, because the standards are different. A B in a BCPM class for pre-meds is essentially a failure, b/c that's a 2.7-3.3 at best.
 
claduva94 said:
If that was true they wouldn't have a prayer in med school, as there are very intense science classes here.
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I don't think it's really a debatable issue. People differ in ability.

I'm not a med student, but the data seems to show that it's much harder to get into med school than to get through it. Notice getting through it is not the same as excelling.
 
md-2020 said:
No, because the standards are different. A B in a BCPM class for pre-meds is essentially a failure, b/c that's a 2.7-3.3 at best.
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ZedsDed said:
I don't think it's really a debatable issue. People differ in ability.

I'm not a med student, but the data seems to show that it's much harder to get into med school than to get through it. Notice getting through it is not the same as excelling.
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You will be surprised. My point is everyone can do it if they approach it correctly. People tend to sell themselves short and end up writing off a whole field, even if their passion lies in it, which isn't right. Not all STEM is the same and it requires very different skillets between certain disciplines. BME and civil engineering for example. Yes people may be inherently better than others. But the difference isn't insurmountable. There is a reason there is no true divide between STEM and Humanities majors in medical school, at least based on what I have experienced.
 
claduva94 said:
It is also worth noting that this is good advice for the vast majority of premeds (i.e. the ones who are not 100% sure about medicine). For that reason I majored in BME, one of the majors @md-2020 says to avoid. I was not at a grade inflating school and I still graduated with above a 3.9. It is doable but just takes more work. But I also graduated with a degree that essentially guaranteed me a very comfortable job. Yes yes. You can take the shiny path surrounded by daisies and puppies to have an easy path or you can do what interests you and be happy and passionate throughout undergrad despite the assumed greater difficulty. FWIW I think I did better in BME than I could have in psych, bio, or some "easier" major because it played into my passions and kept me from taking classes I wasn't interested in and therefore wouldn't try as hard in.
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There are BME jobs out there? O_O
 
please write a guide on how to defeat the mcat too
 
md-2020 said:
@claduva94 congrats on crushing BME! But for many students, no matter how much interest, it is impossible to 3.9 BME. You wouldn't disagree with that, right? It's not always just about how hard you work, everyone has limitations
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I totally agree. I majored in one of the ones that you mentioned as being not the best, and my GPA is not awesome. I feel like I've been working really hard in my studies, but it's just the best I could do. Fortunately, I've been doing decently so far in the cycle despite my not exciting GPA, so here's hoping that continues to be the case.
 
ZedsDed said:
I don't think it's really a debatable issue. People differ in ability.

I'm not a med student, but the data seems to show that it's much harder to get into med school than to get through it. Notice getting through it is not the same as excelling.
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Ability is often tied to preference. For example, I love organic chemistry. And I'd much rather spend extra time learning organic, instead of taking a course that's less time consuming, but not as enjoyable. Granted, it's easier to say this when you've achieved at least an A- in your o-chem classes. But as @claduva94 mentioned, success in such courses is doable with the right approach.

However, I will concede that certain programs are indeed excessively difficult- this is school/department/professor specific- and should be approached with caution if a high gpa is a priority.
 
These were some really good tips. Thanks.
 
Lawper said:
Good work.
1. AP/IBs don't resemble college-level material (which is utterly false)
2. Many schools don't accept AP credit

#2 is a very exaggerated issue because essentially all medical schools are willing to accept AP/IB credits provided you have taken upper level courses in the prereqs. Sadly, we have very few stubborn schools that somehow believe in #1 and will not accept any AP/IB credits even despite taking upper level courses. Personally, I find this policy to be grossly irrational, but can't change the school policy. The best way to deal with this is to always consult the MSAR and maybe the school websites.
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md-2020 said:
Agreed. The only thing it doesn't emulate from college is the 2.5 GPA class curve. If AP's + more electives isn't enough I don't know what is.
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I'm going to vehemently disagree here. I do not believe that AP/IB credit demonstrates college-level competency in a course, PARTICULARLY science courses. I do agree that AP + success in upper division electives very clearly demonstrates competency and should definitely be respected in medical school admissions, but AP alone? No way.

High school teaching style is completely different and varies so widely across high schools. There are high schools in this country where you will get an A or B for just showing up to class every day. The AP exam is supposed to be a great equalizer, but I don't think that being able to pass, or even ace the AP means that you know a topic equivalent to what a course of college-level rigor will teach.
 
sovereign0 said:
I'm going to vehemently disagree here. I do not believe that AP/IB credit demonstrates college-level competency in a course, PARTICULARLY science courses. I do agree that AP + success in upper division electives very clearly demonstrates competency and should definitely be respected in medical school admissions, but AP alone? No way.

High school teaching style is completely different and varies so widely across high schools. There are high schools in this country where you will get an A or B for just showing up to class every day. The AP exam is supposed to be a great equalizer, but I don't think that being able to pass, or even ace the AP means that you know a topic equivalent to what a course of college-level rigor will teach.
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It really depends on who is teaching wnd the quality of the high school. I am making a key assumption that high schools offering numerous AP courses are of high quality, and in these cases, AP courses completely demolish intro courses in any college including Ivy Leagues.

Continuing with the anecdotal example, all my AP science classes were taught by engineers. The classes were designed in such a way that even a college sophomore will fail if they don't work their butts off. I failed many exams but in the end, i managed to master the key concepts well and used them to bypass most/all intro courses and still do well in upper levels. The same also applied for non-science AP courses.

YMMV, but the quality of the high school really matters for AP/IB to be valuable, but even the exams themselves are much more effective than any intro courses.
 
Lawper said:
It really depends on who is teaching wnd the quality of the high school. I am making a key assumption that high schools offering numerous AP courses are of high quality, and in these cases, AP courses completely demolish intro courses in any college including Ivy Leagues.

Continuing with the anecdotal example, all my AP science classes were taught by engineers. The classes were designed in such a way that even a college sophomore will fail if they don't work their butts off. I failed many exams but in the end, i managed to master the key concepts well and used them to bypass most/all intro courses and still do well in upper levels. The same also applied for non-science AP courses.

YMMV, but the quality of the high school really matters for AP/IB to be valuable, but even the exams themselves are much more effective than any intro courses.
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I attended a top 30 (top 10 at the time) high school in the country [happy to PM you the high school name, if you are curious] per USNWR. I aced AP Biology, and got a 5 on the AP exam. I received college credit for Bio I&II with both labs. I then went on to take intro Biology at a large state college (not very rigorous), and still found that what the AP tested me on was nowhere near congruous with the density and complexity of the material I learned in college. Likewise, the teaching scenario was hugely different - from a 20 person high school class with a PhD teacher to a massive 500 person lecture hall. I didn't necessarily find the course more difficult, but I definitely did NOT learn the same depth and breadth of material from my high school course as I did in college.

Again, this is only n=1 and only for Biology, but seeing as I scored a 5 on the AP, aced the class at a nationally renowned high school, and subsequently took the course at a 4-year university not known for academic rigor and still felt this way, I strongly disagree that succeeding in AP courses translates to a college-level mastery of the subject, particularly in the sciences. I do concede that I had a decent foundation for taking courses at the college level, and was able to get easy A's and I think that my AP coursework is responsible for that. Still, in no way was the education on the same level. As for non-science and liberal arts AP's, I can't really offer much because I was happy to take the AP credits and run.

This is probably a moot point because in many cases, medical school applicants will have to take upper-division courses which cannot have AP credit earned as part of their pre-requisites. I would argue that in the process of "catching up" to the upper-level material, a student has adequately grasped the material.

I would say that medical school's present policies regarding AP's - that they'll accept the credits so long as the university granted these credits on the student's transcript - are fair. For those students who are STEM majors and are likely to take upper-division courses, I've always advocated taking the courses in college anyway - if you are good at STEM stuff and can afford it. With the AP's, you'll at least have the exposure to give you a head start and hopefully make the course an easy A, and still using your knowledge in a way that benefits your GPA and transcript.

The truth is, though, as @md-2020 2020 mentioned, doing well in an AP is going to be way easier than doing well in the class at a college level. If you tend to perform poorly in STEM courses and think you will do poorly here, then it's probably a strategic decision to take the credits and run. It will save money on credits and time in UG, as well as saving some stress. But I think it is more than fair for medical schools to expect some upper division work to demonstrate proficiency in the subject.
 
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claduva94 said:
A guy in my class that didn't get into med school this time around turned down a 90k/year starting salary last year.
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90k starting for an undergrad BME??? You could hire a ME/CE or a EE for much cheaper.
 
ElCapone said:
90k starting for an undergrad BME??? You could hire a ME/CE or a EE for much cheaper.
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90k for a non PhD BME is well above the curve. Don't get too jelly there Capone 😀
 
Has it ever occurred to anyone following this strategy that uh, doing all this may get you into a med school, but once you're there you're gonna have to deal with this whole "I am really bad at basic sciences" thing??? Like, sure, play the game, get accepted, but then you have to like learn the preclinical material?????? I can't say that spending no time in college working on actually trying to learn how to learn properly is a better usage of time
 
avgn said:
Has it ever occurred to anyone following this strategy that uh, doing all this may get you into a med school, but once you're there you're gonna have to deal with this whole "I am really bad at basic sciences" thing??? Like, sure, play the game, get accepted, but then you have to like learn the preclinical material??????
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Like it has been previously stated many times on this forum the hurdle is getting in, not surviving. Yes it'll be hard but there is no way getting B's in college means you can't handle preclinicals. Data backs this up too.

Same goes for MCAT, the 32 matriculant avg is a product of high competition, not whats actually needed to succeed MD school. I think anything above a 26 (?) was shown to have similar graduation rates.

There's a reason pre reqs are pre reqs. They are what the medical schools deem necessary to prepare you for their work. It's not like these classes were just arbitrarily set. Going above and beyond is great but certainly not a necessity for medical education.
 
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Lawper said:
It really depends on who is teaching wnd the quality of the high school. I am making a key assumption that high schools offering numerous AP courses are of high quality, and in these cases, AP courses completely demolish intro courses in any college including Ivy Leagues.

Continuing with the anecdotal example, all my AP science classes were taught by engineers. The classes were designed in such a way that even a college sophomore will fail if they don't work their butts off. I failed many exams but in the end, i managed to master the key concepts well and used them to bypass most/all intro courses and still do well in upper levels. The same also applied for non-science AP courses.

YMMV, but the quality of the high school really matters for AP/IB to be valuable, but even the exams themselves are much more effective than any intro courses.
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I think one of the Ivies did a study a while ago where they put everyone who got a 5 on AP Psych together and gave them an exam from their intro Psych class and like 90% failed it or something. I can look for the study if you're really interested.

I took a bunch of APs in high school and none of them came close to the level that my college classes did. I mean, for some of them, because my school didn't accept them for credit, I didn't study at all for and screwed around on the exam (like literally writing haikus and raps for essay answers) and I still got a 5. I suppose you could argue that the actual course is rigorous and the exam is easy, but then it would depend on the actual high school offering the class and you can't use a 5 on the AP exam as a proxy for actually being able to know and apply the material in a college level setting. Maybe they've changed the AP exams in the past 5 years, but I thought the exams were all jokes compared to my college classes. This could be a factor of where I went to high school vs where I went to college but I think the point still stands that an AP exam can't always equal a college level exam. Just my 2c
 
ElCapone said:
I'm just used to all the PhD BMEs I know being unemployed 😛
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Maybe it depends on the school? My program has >95% placement rate I believe and some of those 5% are stubborn premeds that weren't accepted 😛
 
ElCapone said:
I'm just used to all the PhD BMEs I know being unemployed 😛
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If given a choice between EE/ME grads with a bio applications background vs. a BME/BioE, companies would prefer the former.
BME is turning into a glorified Premed degree with little rigor (edit: in general...there are always exceptions). If someone is interested in engineering and medicine, I always suggest them to major in EE/ME/ChemE. If one is good and passionate, maintaining a GPA>3.7 isn't an issue. Or if one is really worried about the GPA, go to a top foreign engineering school (almost "free" in some places) and then take the medschool prereqs here. That way, you get your 4.0 without shelling out money on underwater basketweaving and an awesome education.
 
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AmICrazy said:
If given a choice between EE/ME grads with a bio applications background vs. a BME/BioE, companies would prefer the former.
BME is turning into a glorified Premed degree with little rigor (edit: in general...there are always exceptions). If someone is interested in engineering and medicine, I always suggest them to major in EE/ME/ChemE. If one is good and passionate, maintaining a GPA>3.7 isn't an issue. Or if one is really worried about the GPA, go to a top foreign engineering school (almost "free" in some places) and then take the medschool prereqs here. That way, you get your 4.0 without shelling out money on underwater basketweaving and an awesome education.
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Great post. I agree with this completely, since i too feel that BME is a watered down version of EE/ChemE/ME etc. My emgineering friends always joke that BMEs have their easy way out and have never had to deal with the rigor faced by "true" engineering majors. Having seen the differences firsthand in few of the engineering courses, i agree with them.

Even if we're talking BME at JHU, MIT, WashU, yes it is hard for obvious reasons but the main engineering majors are a lot harder. Relatively speaking, BME doesn't come close to the other engineering majors in regards to difficulty.
 
claduva94 said:
Maybe it depends on the school? My program has >95% placement rate I believe and some of those 5% are stubborn premeds that weren't accepted 😛
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That's awesome! Is your program tissue-based or instrumentation based? 😀
 
ElCapone said:
That's awesome! Is your program tissue-based or instrumentation based? 😀
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Most programs at top schools (not necessarily a top BME program) have multiple tracks.
 
The concept of choosing an easy majors and fluff classes JUST to get into med school just sounds backward to me. I feel like every other new thread on here is some new way to manipulate the system and gain some sort of secret backdoor advantage against everyone else.

I guess I'm not a very good pre med :yawn:
 
BluMist said:
You might be good, but definitely not efficient (neither am I).
minimal amount of work/stress -> maximum return
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I guess that's true if my one and only highest goal in life is to maximize my med school chances. IMO it's a little insecure to be grovelling around to the point where you're taking fluffy freshman classes, trying to fudge BCPM classifications, and changing your major just to improve your chances.

I do understand though that this post is written toward a particular group that has a unique struggle
 
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Dave_Med17 said:
I don't know about psych degree's, sure you can do something but from what I hear it's a "good luck finding a job" sort of thing when you graduate. Plus psych is a joke of a major. I agree that the job market with a biology or biochem degree kind of sucks. When I was worried I wasn't going to be accepted into med school I started looking at what I could do with my bio degree. I found out that I'm kind of screwed, doing mostly grunt work with no real responsibility or critical thinking unless you pursue a higher degree.
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you can do a lot of non psych related things with a psych major (business). But yeah with bio and psych, grad school is pretty much a requirement
 
Glazedonutlove said:
you can do a lot of non psych related things with a psych major (business). But yeah with bio and psych, grad school is pretty much a requirement
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Yea, I think chem and biochem are a little better though, since there are more opportunities in labs, pharmaceuticals, and industry.
 
Pusheen said:
Yea, I think chem and biochem are a little better though, since there are more opportunities in labs, pharmaceuticals, and industry.
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ChemE also rakes it in with the pharmaceutical industry 🙂 I also know many math majors who make a lot at actuarial companies (and they actually like that stuff!), and a lot of physics and EE majors choose to go into the defense industry. In many companies, though, eventually one reaches a ceiling where in order to get a promotion, you'd either have to get an MBA to become a project manager, or a Ph.D. to become a scientific manager.
 
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