MD/DO debate a foolish one

[Sandeep2000]

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It's really just this simple: when your dream your whole life has been to be a MD, you're not just going to settle for DO particularly when 98 percent of the public doesn't even know what the hell that is.

This is basically about DOs who didn't have the courage to leave mommy/daddy and all their little friends behind to embark on a drastically more difficult life in a strange, unknown place, and then resent those who did who return after two short years or much less in many cases, and attain those vaunted initials which they (the bitter DOs) didn't have the balls to go after.

That's it and that's ALL there is to it.

 

[TTSD]

This is just flame-bait. But you're right AND wrong.

DO's understand that there is a significant advantage to staying in the US. Not only, just because it's the US and offers everything the US offers, but also in terms of the all-important residencies.

And yes, some who do leave for the caribbean as opposed to a DO school have played out the DO vs. MD title-debate.

But to say DO's are little mamma-boys etc is just plain wrong.

 

[Sandeep2000]

I didn't mean to imply that all or even most or even a quarter of all DOs meet the above description. But 100 percent of the ones who go on endlessly tearing down IMGs fit the description to a "t".

Being Indian, I know a LOT of people in US MD programs, in DO schools, and in the Caribbean. Nobody ever bitches about anyone else except the two guys I know in DO programs who relentlessly ridicule a guy we know at Ross and a girl who went to one of the less-established Caribbean schools. And it's because they didn't have the guts to do it themselves yet realize those two will be MDs and they won't. That's it, and nothing more.

On a side note, let me put forth my situation and ask for some opinions. My portfolio, or whatever the word is:

graduated last month from Vanderbilt University with a B.S. in Biology. Overall GPA: 3.2
Science GPA: 3.1
MCAT BS 9 PS 8 VR 9 Essay R so overall 26R
I have plenty of volunteer experience in hospitals, worked in the ER in a gig set up by surgeon uncle summer after frosh yr, great recs, done some shadowing, etc.

Applied to: Vandy and my two allopathic state schools (denied), SGU, Ross, American U OTC, Saba, and a new school called St. Matthews

Had what I felt to be an excellent interview with SGU but was subsequently admitted not to MD, but some MS program I'd never heard of and couldn't be less interested in. Surprised and pretty disappointed, but 'nuff said.

Got admitted to Ross in pretty good time, ditto with American University OTC and Saba as well and the new school. I visited Ross/AU OTC/Saba during spring break.

Decided against Ross/Saba for the same reason: depressing, meagre surroundings, lack of civilization and the basic amenities. Everyone tells me I'm choosing a school based on the wrong rationale, but I don't happen to view 16 or 20 months as a short little sojourn. I need to be happy whereever I go or I can't focus on my studies.

So that leaves me with AU and the St.Matthews school. I like AU and its participation in US federal loans, coast to coast approval, and location. However, having visited Grand Cayman twice on vacation (totally unrelated to that school) I have to say I like that island much better and as I understand, this new program is already approved in the state of New York which is supposed to be half the battle? I should add at this juncture that I could live without practicing in California and its delegate (for the purpose of licensure) states. (actually I've never given the matter thought).

Can anyone offer a personal experience with this new school or what other resources I should use to make this decision? If I don't care about California certification, is the new St Matthews program good enough to pick over AUOTC because that is actually what I am planning to do, though I need to decide by Friday. Actually Wednesday, since the deposit must be in by Friday.

 

[box29]

I'm not starting a flame war, but please don't base your judgements on 2 people you know at DO school. As for the MANY people I know at DO school, no one has said anything derogatory against anyone who attended the Carribean schools or anyone who is an IMG/FMG. As for the MANY people I know in MD schools, not one has said anything bad about DO school or Carribean school. We're all studying to become physicians and I respect the people I know in the field for the support and encouragement. They have a heightened sense of professionalism which all medical students should have regardless of where they go to school.

 

[Shinken]

Sandeep2000, you should choose St. Matthew's over AUC. I hear nothing but great things about St. Matthew's. I even shadowed a physician last summer who graduated from there, and he was very knowledgeable and respected by the entire staff (including the chief of staff, a graduate of Harvard!).

You would have no problems obtaining licensure in all states or matching in very competitive residencies with a degree from St. Matthew's. Good luck and congratulations on your decision!

 

[Phil Anthropist]

It's really just this simple: when your dream your whole life has been to be a MD, you're not just going to settle for DO particularly when 98 percent of the public doesn't even know what the hell that is.

This is basically about DOs who didn't have the courage to leave mommy/daddy and all their little friends behind to embark on a drastically more difficult life in a strange, unknown place, and then resent those who did who return after two short years or much less in many cases, and attain those vaunted initials which they (the bitter DOs) didn't have the balls to go after.

That's it and that's ALL there is to it.

Sandeep when I read your first post here, all I could think was, "Thank goodness he didn't post this in the pre-osteopathic or osteopathic forum!" But I'm gonna go ahead and take your word on your qualification. And by the way, AOA did a study a couple of years back and it was more like 89%, not 98% 😀

😀 **Earlier Rambling deleted** 😀

you should choose St. Matthew's over AUC.

You would have no problems obtaining licensure in all states or matching in very competitive residencies with a degree from St. Matthew's.

I've heard some excellent things about St. Matthew's, its graduates, and its residency appointments (even though the match list going around the net is worthless as it does not state details), but there are licensure issues according to the school official on ValueMD:

*St. Matthew's has no licensure, residency, or rotations in Kansas until 2012
*St. Matthew's has no rotations in New Jersey
*St. Matthew's has no rotations in Maine
*St. Matthew's has no licensure, residency, or rotations in California unless it gets approved this Fall
*Texas is advising that St. Matthew's students do not attempt to participate in rotations or residency in the state.

But getting New York approval was huge, so maybe the other states will follow and license St. Matthew's as well...

AUC (as it is referred to on this forum or AU OTC as you call it) on the other hand is approved in all 50 states. It really comes down to WHERE you want to practice and WHAT you want to practice. You should at least see St. Matthew's match list if you can...

I'm a little surprised you didn't get into SGU though. Sounds like SGU is getting more competitive. Anyway, good luck at St. Matthew's or wherever you decide to go. 🙂

 

[stephew]

frankly it would have been better to respond to the original thread; this merely starts more of the same which is contrary to your stated goals.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

frankly it would have been better to respond to the original thread; this merely starts more of the same which is contrary to your stated goals.

yeah my bad

the foolishness continues 😀

 

[stephew]

its a common whim, we're gonna have the last reasonable say on the matter. the trouble is folks hiding behind the cloak of the net are hardly reasonable

 

[Shinken]

but there are licensure issues according to the school official on ValueMD:

*St. Matthew's has no licensure, residency, or rotations in Kansas until 2012
*St. Matthew's has no rotations in New Jersey
*St. Matthew's has no rotations in Maine
*St. Matthew's has no licensure, residency, or rotations in California unless it gets approved this Fall
*Texas is advising that St. Matthew's students do not attempt to participate in rotations or residency in the state.

🙂

GREAT! Thanks a lot Phil Anthropist! You're ruining my "good" advice. Sandeep2000, I was being sarcastic. My post was bogus. Choosing a school based merely on the fact that it's on a pretty island is lame. You criticize people for not wanting to leave "mommy/daddy" and their "little friends" but you don't want to go to a school unless the beach and the island are nice.

Even though you don't think much of DO's here's the advice from a future DO:

- Don't go to St. Matthew's. It's not that established yet.

- Go to Ross as a first choice, AUC as second and Saba third. Don't consider St. Matthew's at all.

- I would say go DO instead because you won't have any problems with licensure but I guess I'm biased towards that path and you've already said it's out of the question for you.

- Try to understand that many people actually don't mind being DO's (really!) and don't be too close-minded or angry towards them because as a future Caribbean student you'll for sure end up studying with them, rotating with them, and possibly being taught by them (not to mention competing with them for residency spots, and your stats and that of most DO students are pretty similar. If you don't completely ace the boards you might just see your residency spot snatched by a lowly DO). Remember, it's not the degree but the person earning the degree that matters.

Good luck!

 

[Sandeep2000]

I won't say anything further regarding the MD/DO issue. I don't care about it anyway; I was merely a bit incensed reading the other thread on this matter as I know firsthand that not all Caribbean students are "rejects" who "could never get into a MD or DO school". That was the reason for my venom. I will drop it now, as nothing productive can come of such bickering.

On the matter of the schools, I appreciate the input. One of the problems has been precisely illuminated here. I am told by everyone I am close to, without exception, from my parents to siblings to friends to classmates that I am choosing a school based on the wrong criteria. But I don't see what I am doing that is so wrong. I am not speaking from ignorance. I visited Ross/Saba and found the environment dismal and depressing (actually I thought Saba island was rather lovely, but as a place to visit NOT live at for a year and a half).

Everyone is different, and I feel I will not be happy there. Now, if they were the only games in town, it would be different, I would suck it up and put my feelings aside, get in there and work hard and try to ignore the lack of stress release valve.

But that is not the case. There are other options, and I am familiar with the drawbacks as listed here. It so happens I care about few things less than the great state of Kansas, and really most of the rest on the list. I definitely respect the "newness" argument. It's my chief and greatest fear, and probably the one that will send me to AUOTC.

I appreciate the feedback.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

GREAT! Thanks a lot Phil Anthropist! You're ruining my "good" advice. Sandeep2000, I was being sarcastic. My post was bogus.

😳

The funniest part is when I read your post earlier I actually read it seriously! To quote good old Lester Burnham, "I rule!" Next time on SDN I promise not to be so sleep-deprived and actually peruse the posts. My cerebral flatulence comes out every now and then--and that time I dropped one big stink!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[brianjc]

Sandeep2000

Something you should also look into is the flexibility of your third and fourth years. I know SGU (which your not going to) sets up your rotations for you and you don't have any choice in the matter. I think that it would be important to have the flexibility to set up some of you own rotations during your last two years so you can go somewhere you want to do residency and shine! I have no idea about the other schools 3rd and 4th years you have mentioned, but it might be something you should research and add to your decision making process

 

[dbiddy808]

I'm a Saba grad, but I can see where you are coming from. I recently chose doing a hellish residency in Miami over cushy ones elsewhere because I chose location over reputation.

The way I see it is that you only live once and the two years you spend in the caribbean will be meamorable ones.

You only live once, make the most of it! I think you are making a good choice.

 

[woodzy]

Just a quick correction from an SGU grad (graduated one year ago). It is absolutely not true that SGU sets up and dictates all your rotations for you. There are a list of hospitals to choose from and you request where you would like to go for your core rotations (ie 3rd year) and are assigned from there. You can do electives and outside rotations at outside facilities for a total of 12 weeks. That was the policy in effect when I graduated.

 

[stephew]

Just a quick correction from an SGU grad (graduated one year ago). It is absolutely not true that SGU sets up and dictates all your rotations for you. There are a list of hospitals to choose from and you request where you would like to go for your core rotations (ie 3rd year) and are assigned from there. You can do electives and outside rotations at outside facilities for a total of 12 weeks. That was the policy in effect when I graduated.

BUT be careful. some states wont license you or let you do residency in the states if you have outside electives (ie, PA)

steph

 

[VentdependenT]

The premed mentality can be astonishingly naive. Maybe you'll bump into a DO anesthesiologist in the OR's or the ICU one day sandeep. Make your judgements then.

Laterzs

 

[stephew]

my friends its not just the premed mentality; you just think of that as you are surrounded by premeds. this is people. People love to hold views on anything regardless of their experience, information, and indeed good sense. People will have an opinion about anything and often hold it in spite of evidence to the contrary. Thank goodness for those who live life with concordance to the statement "foolish consistancies are the hobgoblins of little minds".
steph

 

[Sandeep2000]

Actually, I am not sorry for anything I said. 98 percent of the public has no idea what the hell a D.O is. My primary reason for entering medicine is because I love the subject and want to help people, BUT I would not mind being recognized and respected for being an M.D.; it's not the primary motive, but it's a very big fringe benefit, to me. I understand it may not be to others. If you can rationalize your way thru a D.O. degree and career, more power to ya.

 

[Luck]

Actually, I am not sorry for anything I said. 98 percent of the public has no idea what the hell a D.O is. My primary reason for entering medicine is because I love the subject and want to help people, BUT I would not mind being recognized and respected for being an M.D.; it's not the primary motive, but it's a very big fringe benefit, to me. I understand it may not be to others. If you can rationalize your way thru a D.O. degree and career, more power to ya.

You are wrong. It's not 98% that doesn't know about DOs, it's about 90%. People respect doctors because they are doctors. They don't care what initials they have. Because of this, patients will respect their doctor if he was a DO much like if he was an MD. You're reasoning is flawed.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Actually, I am not sorry for anything I said. 98 percent of the public has no idea what the hell a D.O is. My primary reason for entering medicine is because I love the subject and want to help people, BUT I would not mind being recognized and respected for being an M.D.; it's not the primary motive, but it's a very big fringe benefit, to me. I understand it may not be to others. If you can rationalize your way thru a D.O. degree and career, more power to ya.

That is one thing about D.O.s. They are compassionate physicians, who don't require the recognition that M.D.'s do. They treat the whole patient, and not just their own ego. Not that many M.D.s aren't like that as well, but comments like these clearly show that some are.

 

[Sandeep2000]

And your grammar sucks. It's "Your", not "You're".

And guess what, even going by your number, 90 percent, I would still say that to work hard through college and medical school and throughout one's career and still have 90 percent of people not know what exactly you do, sucks.

 

[Luck]

And your grammar sucks. It's "Your", not "You're".

And guess what, even going by your number, 90 percent, I would still say that to work hard through college and medical school and throughout one's career and still have 90 percent of people not know what exactly you do, sucks.

Your ignorant statment made me laugh. So let me get this straight. When I'm a practicing physician and I treat my patients, they aren't going to know that I'm a physician? 😕

Pretty dumb man, pretty dumb. 🙄

 

[exmike]

And your grammar sucks. It's "Your", not "You're".

LOL!! well my tonka truck is bigger than your tonka truck! neener neener! Teacher I'm telling!

what are we, in fifth grade?

 

[VentdependenT]

Actually, I am not sorry for anything I said. 98 percent of the public has no idea what the hell a D.O is. My primary reason for entering medicine is because I love the subject and want to help people, BUT I would not mind being recognized and respected for being an M.D.; it's not the primary motive, but it's a very big fringe benefit, to me. I understand it may not be to others. If you can rationalize your way thru a D.O. degree and career, more power to ya.

Have fun out there my man.

Good luck.

 

[daelroy]

Hey Sandeep

You make a good point but did you ever consider the flipside of your argument? One could also make the point that people who attend schools in the Carribean are cowards because they are willing to accept every possible disadvantage simply for an MD title. In other words, people go to the Carribbean simply because of their irrational fear of how patients will perceive them. Most MD's will tell you that their DO colleagues aren't treated any differently. Sure there are exceptions but the vast majority of DO's like IMG's are not treated any differently. Most patients do not care. DO's like every other physician do not receive patients through the yellow pages; they receive them through referrals. A patient will not care whether a physician is a DO if he or she hears great things about that physician. Yet, the IMG grad is so worried about the one patient who will question their credentials during rotations or the one patient who will look in the phone book and avoid a doctor because he is a DO. Yes, there is a remote chance that a patient might drive by a DO's office and refuse to see him or her due to the DO status. Fine, there are more than enough patients to go around. And if a patient is that petty about status, chances are that patient will be a pain in the a$$ to begin with; you can have those patients. I just think it's sad that an IMG will place themselves at a statistical disadvantage with flexibility in their choice of clerkships, residency and location simply because of the perceptions of a few patients. In other words, you will make your lives so much more difficult simply because of how an extreme minority of people will perceive you. That doesn't sound like bravery to me. The funny thing is that there are many patients who only prefer to see DO's as well so it balances out in the end. Yes, there are patients who only prefer to see DO because of their reputation being less arrogant.

One final note, many of the people in this forum have a huge misperception. Patients are not the ones who discriminate between MD and DO status to great extent that you think. Patients are clueless for the most part and just want to see the "doctor" that has a great reputation. The ones who are responsible for DO/IMG prejudice are U.S. MD physicians. It's hilarious how IMG's think that patients are the ones who care so much about the DO vs. MD status. The truth is that U.S. MD's are the ones who are so particular about MD vs. DO. So, you future IMG's shouldn't think that you will be treated the same simply because you have an MD label. Your U.S. allopathic colleagues will know the truth and discover you are a Carribbean grad. Physicians are a tight group and will figure out where you attended medical school. And there is a difference in perception regarding a true IMG and an American citizen who went to the Carribbean because he or she couldn't get into a U.S. medical school. Do you really think you will be treated on equal footing just because you have the same initials? So while you may be able to mask your degree from patients, other physicians will know you are an IMG. The physicians who talk behind the backs of DO's do the same in regard to the IMG: "Oh, he is a Ross grad or he went to the Carribbean." I have a friend who attended a U.S. allopathic medical school in Hawaii and his colleagues joke with him that he is an IMG since he was in Hawaii. They all get a laugh out of it but you can see that physicians do ridicule IMG status. And hence you probably will not be treated any better or worse than a DO the rest of your life. In other words, you aren't going to receive the full benefits of being an MD when you are an IMG. If you are that worried about how you will be perceived then reapply to a U.S. allopathic school. Do you really think the few physicians who look down upon DO's will not do the same with IMG's. Please

I don't see how having worse odds of specializing and choice of location is a fringe benefit?

 

[Luck]

Hey Sandeep

You make a good point but did you ever consider the flipside of your argument? One could also make the point that people who attend schools in the Carribean are cowards because they are willing to accept every possible disadvantage simply for an MD title. In other words, people go to the Carribbean simply because of their irrational fear of how patients will perceive them. Most MD's will tell you that their DO colleagues aren't treated any differently. Sure there are exceptions but the vast majority of DO's like IMG's are not treated any differently. Most patients do not care. DO's like every other physician do not receive patients through the yellow pages; they receive them through referrals. A patient will not care whether a physician is a DO if he or she hears great things about that physician. Yet, the IMG grad is so worried about the one patient who will question their credentials during rotations or the one patient who will look in the phone book and avoid a doctor because he is a DO. Yes, there is a remote chance that a patient might drive by a DO's office and refuse to see him or her due to the DO status. Fine, there are more than enough patients to go around. And if a patient is that petty about status, chances are that patient will be a pain in the a$$ to begin with; you can have those patients. I just think it's sad that an IMG will place themselves at a statistical disadvantage with flexibility in their choice of clerkships, residency and location simply because of the perceptions of a few patients. In other words, you will make your lives so much more difficult simply because of how an extreme minority of people will perceive you. That doesn't sound like bravery to me. The funny thing is that there are many patients who only prefer to see DO's as well so it balances out in the end. Yes, there are patients who only prefer to see DO because of their reputation being less arrogant.

One final note, many of the people in this forum have a huge misperception. Patients are not the ones who discriminate between MD and DO status to great extent that you think. Patients are clueless for the most part and just want to see the "doctor" that has a great reputation. The ones who are responsible for DO/IMG prejudice are U.S. MD physicians. It's hilarious how IMG's think that patients are the ones who care so much about the DO vs. MD status. The truth is that U.S. MD's are the ones who are so particular about MD vs. DO. So, you future IMG's shouldn't think that you will be treated the same simply because you have an MD label. Your U.S. allopathic colleagues will know the truth and discover you are a Carribbean grad. Physicians are a tight group and will figure out where you attended medical school. And there is a difference in perception regarding a true IMG and an American citizen who went to the Carribbean because he or she couldn't get into a U.S. medical school. Do you really think you will be treated on equal footing just because you have the same initials? So while you may be able to mask your degree from patients, other physicians will know you are an IMG. The physicians who talk behind the backs of DO's do the same in regard to the IMG: "Oh, he is a Ross grad or he went to the Carribbean." I have a friend who attended a U.S. allopathic medical school in Hawaii and his colleagues joke with him that he is an IMG since he was in Hawaii. They all get a laugh out of it but you can see that physicians do ridicule IMG status. And hence you probably will not be treated any better or worse than a DO the rest of your life. In other words, you aren't going to receive the full benefits of being an MD when you are an IMG. If you are that worried about how you will be perceived then reapply to a U.S. allopathic school. Do you really think the few physicians who look down upon DO's will not do the same with IMG's. Please

I don't see how having worse odds of specializing and choice of location is a fringe benefit?

Your argument makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, according to Sandeep's logic, when a patient sees an osteopathic physician for treatment, the patient won't know he or she is a physician. 😕

 

[daelroy]

Your argument makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, according to Sandeep's logic, when a patient sees an osteopathic physician for treatment, the patient won't know he or she is a physician. 😕

Yes, according to Sandeep, all patients choose their physicians by driving by their offices, or looking them up in the yellow pages. When these patients see the DO label, they immediately shun them and choose the MD over them. This why one should always attend the Carribbean over a DO school.

🙄

 

[Sandeep2000]

I was going to let this slide, but since some of you dimwit DOs keep harping on it.......

What I said was 95 percent of the public doesn't know what a D.O., NOT 95 percent of your patients. With reading and analytical skills like these, no wonder you guys can't get an MD.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I was going to let this slide, but since some of you dimwit DOs keep harping on it.......

What I said was 95 percent of the public doesn't know what a D.O., NOT 95 percent of your patients. With reading and analytical skills like these, no wonder you guys can't get an MD.

I agree with you----there are some dimwits out there. But man, there are sure alot of dimwit MDs, so don't discriminate!






or you will die.....

 

[Luck]

This is what you said-

And guess what, even going by your number, 90 percent, I would still say that to work hard through college and medical school and throughout one's career and still have 90 percent of people not know what exactly you do, sucks.

This is what you think you said-

What I said was 95 percent of the public doesn't know what a D.O., NOT 95 percent of your patients. With reading and analytical skills like these, no wonder you guys can't get an MD.

Now to point out the inconsistencies. First you said 90% but now you're saying you said 95%. Then you said 90% of "people" not of the "public." How is anyone supposed to infer public and not patients. Besides, the public is the patients.

If you're going to quote your own words, at least do it accurately. What are you an 8th grader? You're stupidity is becoming of you.👍

 

[tkim]

Closing.