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MD for DO's!
- Thread starter do?
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And what were those comments if you don't mind sharing?
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Many patients came in saying, "I'm not sure about this D.O. thing. I hear the training is not as good." DO's are given a bad rap at well-known D.O. hospitals. There is no way I'll be doing my residency at one!
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Patients don't know a DO from an MD. This is just an attempt at a flame war.
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believe what you like. This was at BOTSFORD hospital, a so-called osteopathic "giant." By the way- if the doctors themselves denegrate the D.O. degree, and recommend MD residencies, what does THAT tell you?
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Do the residency that is best for you...period end of story, allopathic or osteopathic. For each negative story you mention, there probably are 3 positive stories. This is pretty much silly.
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Wrong, Lee. My friends all told me that they were very glad to hear that I was not going to a DO school. Looks like there's an unspoken agreement on this site to pat each other on the back and reassure each other that a DO is really just as marketable as an MD.
Suckers.
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Royce,
Let me guess...you are a junior in highschool? If not, your arguments and your attitudes are about that level.
Have fun at prom bigfella (or perhaps it is Royce-dog or R-money)..
Let me guess...you are a junior in highschool? If not, your arguments and your attitudes are about that level.
Have fun at prom bigfella (or perhaps it is Royce-dog or R-money)..
V
Vegeta
Royce:
I'm trying to understand your agenda here since you've only recently introduced yourself. After having read your posts here {interestingly on the Osteopathic forums rather than dedicating your attention to Allopathic subjects since you've decided to bear your allegiance to an Allopathic institution in the future (or supposedly so)}, I'd like to advise you to save yourself any further embarrassment by providing everyone with customary concerns about Osteopathic Medicine; regular visitors of this messageboard have participated in thorough discussions about Osteopathic Medicine--both its geographic limitations and therapeutic potential.
If you're serious about joining the Health-Care field, you should extinguish your doubts about the quality of education at other schools besides the one at which you've gained an affiliation; you're certainly not in any position to be judgmental, Royce. I doubt that you're accomplished enough to affect the healthy, productive enterprise of Osteopathic Medicine.
The more sensible among us find you rather silly.
I'm trying to understand your agenda here since you've only recently introduced yourself. After having read your posts here {interestingly on the Osteopathic forums rather than dedicating your attention to Allopathic subjects since you've decided to bear your allegiance to an Allopathic institution in the future (or supposedly so)}, I'd like to advise you to save yourself any further embarrassment by providing everyone with customary concerns about Osteopathic Medicine; regular visitors of this messageboard have participated in thorough discussions about Osteopathic Medicine--both its geographic limitations and therapeutic potential.
If you're serious about joining the Health-Care field, you should extinguish your doubts about the quality of education at other schools besides the one at which you've gained an affiliation; you're certainly not in any position to be judgmental, Royce. I doubt that you're accomplished enough to affect the healthy, productive enterprise of Osteopathic Medicine.
The more sensible among us find you rather silly.
i found him silly...and i am not even sensible.
Hey Royce,
Are you the same ****** who posted on the "do students didn't go to md schools?" board? If you are, you're a *******.
I hate ignorant people like you.
Arnold
WESTERN U/COMP CLASS OF 2004
http://members.xoom.com/omasucsd/logo.htm
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To answer your questions, in no particular order:
1. I am going to a top-20 MD school--I am certainly well aware of the goings on in medicine.
2. I was accepted to a number of DO schools--I do have a pretty good idea myself what they're like and what osteopathy can offer me.
3. I've talked to more than just "crusty old-guard MDs" about osteopathy--I have heard what this generation of MDs thinks, too, and it isn't that great.
I am not going to attempt the impossible--to change your minds. The fact is that osteopathy is unnecessary. You are entering a field that is aligning itself with allopathy in ever-increasing amounts. There's an old saying that applies here: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Hate yourselves, not me. I'm not the one who put you in DO school.
Why is it that you never see MDs getting defensive about DO stuff? Why is it that DO students believe they are just as good as someone whose MCAT is three or more standard deviations above theirs? Why would someone think that a person who is less intelligent can handle the intellectual rigors of medicine as well as a person who's truly gifted?
Sounds like a load of rubbish to me.
Don't like people like me? No problem. I'm not too fond of losers like you guys, who attempt to promote a second-rate program to a kid who comes along with the potential to do either.
Like I said before, you don't go to a bar to inquire about the evils of alcohol. And you don't go a DO website to ask objective questions about osteopathy. Brusque? Sure. Truthful? You bet. Can't take it? Time for a character check.
[This message has been edited by Royce (edited 06-28-2000).]
1. I am going to a top-20 MD school--I am certainly well aware of the goings on in medicine.
2. I was accepted to a number of DO schools--I do have a pretty good idea myself what they're like and what osteopathy can offer me.
3. I've talked to more than just "crusty old-guard MDs" about osteopathy--I have heard what this generation of MDs thinks, too, and it isn't that great.
I am not going to attempt the impossible--to change your minds. The fact is that osteopathy is unnecessary. You are entering a field that is aligning itself with allopathy in ever-increasing amounts. There's an old saying that applies here: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Hate yourselves, not me. I'm not the one who put you in DO school.
Why is it that you never see MDs getting defensive about DO stuff? Why is it that DO students believe they are just as good as someone whose MCAT is three or more standard deviations above theirs? Why would someone think that a person who is less intelligent can handle the intellectual rigors of medicine as well as a person who's truly gifted?
Sounds like a load of rubbish to me.
Don't like people like me? No problem. I'm not too fond of losers like you guys, who attempt to promote a second-rate program to a kid who comes along with the potential to do either.
Like I said before, you don't go to a bar to inquire about the evils of alcohol. And you don't go a DO website to ask objective questions about osteopathy. Brusque? Sure. Truthful? You bet. Can't take it? Time for a character check.
[This message has been edited by Royce (edited 06-28-2000).]
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Unlike some of your cohorts, who attempt to make some sense, you resort to calling me silly little names. Perhaps you ought to return to secondary school for another try at maturity.
I fail to see how reporting what I've heard from MANY MDs, a bunch of DOs--some of whom were my interviewers--and a the general public whom I posed the question, "Who would you prefer to visit? A DO or an MD?" makes me unreasonable or in need of silencing.
If you don't like something, you try to prove it wrong. If you cannot, you attempt to muzzle the person by embarrassing them into silence. I select the "current threads" option on this site, which is what brought me to this thread and others like it. The people who started the threads had legitimate questions, and I gave them my perpsective. I am more interested in talking to them than to you people. They still may have a choice. The average DO, on the other hand, will be up against thousands of people like me when it comes to the boards. And if the results of past standardized tests are any indication of what's to come, you won't want to compare USMLE results with my classmates or myself.
Rest assured, however, that I will consider you for any and all of my patients who need a manipulation.
Royce, you starting to sound like an intellectual professional wrestler villian. You know,the kind the wrile up the crowd with their big egos and arrogance so that the crowd is that much more ecstatic when the hero wrestler beats them down. Anyway if you don't like mudslinging and you just want to have "intellectual discourses" why respond to people's posts by personally cutting down DO students. Guess what Royce, we know there is bias out there. We know that ACGME residencies are tougher to get. Any DO will tell you that, as do the osteopathy pages on this network. We can deal with being underdogs. If you are trying to warn pre-meds about what they could potentially get into with a DO degree then say your piece of news objectively instead of telling DO students that they are second rate doctors who are bound to score less then you on the boards. Only you can prevent inane flamewars.
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Well, Royce all I can say is that someday you will come in contact with a Dr who just happens to have a DO at the end of their name. Perhaps, in the same specialty as you or maybe not. You will find that they are just as competant and in some cases better than you in some regards. Just like you will be better than them in certain cases as well.
I congratulate you on getting into a top 20 med school. That is a feat in and of itself. However, don't delude yourself into thinking this will make you a superior physician.
I congratulate you on getting into a top 20 med school. That is a feat in and of itself. However, don't delude yourself into thinking this will make you a superior physician.
"Why is it that DO students believe they are just as good as someone whose MCAT is three or more standard deviations above theirs?
Royce- Would you be kind enought to share with us your MCAT scores? I want to confirm that it is indeed three or more standard deviations higher than mine, as I am one of those losers who will be entering a DO school.
Royce- Would you be kind enought to share with us your MCAT scores? I want to confirm that it is indeed three or more standard deviations higher than mine, as I am one of those losers who will be entering a DO school.
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Royce, that is an awesome score, but you really shouldn't let it go to your head. Many doctors have told me that it takes more then a good memory and good grades to make yourself a great physician.
http://www.aamc.org/stuapps/admiss/mcat/mcat9299.htm
Royce- 38R is certainly a very good score- you should be proud. According to the table above, however, the std. dev. for each section of the MCAT in 1999 was about 2.0 (an average). So if a DO school has an average score of 8 on each section, your score would have to be 14 on each section to validate the claim that you are 3 std. deviations higher than osteopathic schools. Seems like you exaggerated a bit, wouldn't you say?
Have you read the recently published report in the Journal of the American Osteopathic Association that shows virtually no correlation between MCAT scores and passage rate on board exams?
It seems to me that you are a pre-med gunner that just got into a top 20 allopathic school and are feeling like you're on top of the world. You certainly have accomplished much and should be proud, but why do you put others down? Certainly you wouldn't claim that the small cross-section of physicians or educators you've spoken with are representative of the entire national health care network, would you? If so, I have spoken to several MD's myself and could easily claim the opposite is true regarding several of your assertions.
The reality, however, is that neither of us is yet a physician. Neither has taken boards, done rotations, worked in a residency program. Neither of us knows anything first-hand about being a physician other than the process it takes to be accepted. I am content to take it as it comes and learn about the profession as I go. Why do you feel the need to claim to already know what you couldn't possibly know (ie. how MD's consider/treat DO's) until you have been there? Yes, you have heard- well I have heard that you are a *****, but that doesn't mean it is true! Come on down from your high horse and be a know-nothing MS1 like the rest of us!
Royce- 38R is certainly a very good score- you should be proud. According to the table above, however, the std. dev. for each section of the MCAT in 1999 was about 2.0 (an average). So if a DO school has an average score of 8 on each section, your score would have to be 14 on each section to validate the claim that you are 3 std. deviations higher than osteopathic schools. Seems like you exaggerated a bit, wouldn't you say?
Have you read the recently published report in the Journal of the American Osteopathic Association that shows virtually no correlation between MCAT scores and passage rate on board exams?
It seems to me that you are a pre-med gunner that just got into a top 20 allopathic school and are feeling like you're on top of the world. You certainly have accomplished much and should be proud, but why do you put others down? Certainly you wouldn't claim that the small cross-section of physicians or educators you've spoken with are representative of the entire national health care network, would you? If so, I have spoken to several MD's myself and could easily claim the opposite is true regarding several of your assertions.
The reality, however, is that neither of us is yet a physician. Neither has taken boards, done rotations, worked in a residency program. Neither of us knows anything first-hand about being a physician other than the process it takes to be accepted. I am content to take it as it comes and learn about the profession as I go. Why do you feel the need to claim to already know what you couldn't possibly know (ie. how MD's consider/treat DO's) until you have been there? Yes, you have heard- well I have heard that you are a *****, but that doesn't mean it is true! Come on down from your high horse and be a know-nothing MS1 like the rest of us!
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Thanks for the compliment. And I know that it takes more than brains, but let's be honest: all other things being equal, wouldn't you want someone who did top-notch work to be your oncologist? I sure would, even if that meant that I had a cold-hearted, arrogant jerk for a doctor.
Royce- I would be very interested to read the article you mentioned if you could find it for me. I also think that the MCAT is used because it gives an objective comparison- but I refute that it is a good predictor of med. school success. It is my belief that it should not be weighed as heavily as it is- maybe that will change if reports continue to show that it does not do what it intends to do.
I am dissapointed that you didn't respond to the rest of my post. I intended to challenge you directly and hoped you would either support your position or acknowledge that you overstated a bit. Still waiting . . .
I am dissapointed that you didn't respond to the rest of my post. I intended to challenge you directly and hoped you would either support your position or acknowledge that you overstated a bit. Still waiting . . .
Royce (I'm posting here cause someone closed the other thread),
For lack of time, I'm going to address only two of your criticisms. I agree that the American public knows little to nothing about DO's, and that it will be a little annoying having to explain what I do, after 4 years of medical school and x years of residency. But you know what? I don't really care what the American public knows. I would bet that if you took a survey and asked 10 people on the street to identify Uganda as an African nation, more than half would get it wrong. Yet, Uganda is and always will be around. American pop culture has never impressed me, and just because DO's are not part of it (ie: tv shows like ER, Diagnosis Murder, etc) doesn't mean that it does not exist.
My second point: American Health Care is an industry, not unlike any other industry. If I want to buy a computer next week, you can be damn sure that if my only choice is IBM, I'll be pissed. I bet you think that if Big Blue is like allopathy, companies like Apple shouldn't exist right? Even if there is no major differences between Osteo and Allo pathy, they should be able to compete for the privelege to treat the public. Obviously we're doing something right, or the economic system would've sent us down the path of Homeopathy. You make some valid criticisms of Osteo medicine, but your point should be that we need to get better and not that we shouldn't exist.
For lack of time, I'm going to address only two of your criticisms. I agree that the American public knows little to nothing about DO's, and that it will be a little annoying having to explain what I do, after 4 years of medical school and x years of residency. But you know what? I don't really care what the American public knows. I would bet that if you took a survey and asked 10 people on the street to identify Uganda as an African nation, more than half would get it wrong. Yet, Uganda is and always will be around. American pop culture has never impressed me, and just because DO's are not part of it (ie: tv shows like ER, Diagnosis Murder, etc) doesn't mean that it does not exist.
My second point: American Health Care is an industry, not unlike any other industry. If I want to buy a computer next week, you can be damn sure that if my only choice is IBM, I'll be pissed. I bet you think that if Big Blue is like allopathy, companies like Apple shouldn't exist right? Even if there is no major differences between Osteo and Allo pathy, they should be able to compete for the privelege to treat the public. Obviously we're doing something right, or the economic system would've sent us down the path of Homeopathy. You make some valid criticisms of Osteo medicine, but your point should be that we need to get better and not that we shouldn't exist.
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I am dissapointed that you didn't respond to the rest of my post. I intended to challenge you directly and hoped you would either support your position or acknowledge that you overstated a bit. Still waiting . . .
[/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry about that. I did overstate, by some degree, the exact number of standard deviations by which I beat the average DO matriculant.
Pray tell, what do you think that MCAT test was all about, if not to determine one's fitness for the taking of other standardized tests and/or the practice of medicine?
I am not certain that I enjoy entertaining the idea of having a "cold hearted, arrogant jerk" as an oncologist. To begin with, cold-hearted implies insensitivity, a trait that has no place in medicine, an arena that promotes altruism. An arrogant jerk, however, is probably motivated by money, doesn't mind denying care to indigents, and could care less whether or not I feel better as long as my provider pays the claim.
Sounds like this hypothetical doc began his career in the sciences by bashing other disciplines, making hasty generalizations, over-simplifying big issues, and scoring "three to four standard deviations above his osteopathic counterparts."
Sorry, I'll pass. I'll choose an oncologist that cares about me.
Sounds like this hypothetical doc began his career in the sciences by bashing other disciplines, making hasty generalizations, over-simplifying big issues, and scoring "three to four standard deviations above his osteopathic counterparts."
Sorry, I'll pass. I'll choose an oncologist that cares about me.
These are the posts that I do not usually waste my time reading.....but I'll throw my two cents in. Is that what you are really trying to be? An arrogant jerk? Wow. I can think of alot more logical professions to throw your intellect into. Why are you choosing medicine? In this day and age it certainly cannot be for the money. You would do the rest of us a favor by removing yourself from becoming our collegue now. There is something called brains AND compassion. The two need to go hand in hand in medicine. And think about this......have you ever known what school your family doctor went to? Did you ask them their GPA before you allowed them to examine you? I think I would have walked out before they even touched me if they came in with a pompous attitude such as yours! Do a self eval before you move on. Consider therapy.....the underlying hostility is not a good sign of things to come once your actually under the rigors of school and medicine itself!
Royce, you are right about wanting an intelligent physician, however things are not that simple. To use your oncology example:
Most oncologists will use a certain treatment algorythim(sorry for misspelling) for a given type of cancer based upon the type, how much it has spread, and other pathology. This algorythim is standardized and routine. It doesn't matter if the oncologist is brilliant/dispassionate or above average/empathic. Doctors rarely make up treatment options as they go which is where intelligence is very useful. Research of course is where brilliance helps. Now let's look at the other side of the coin. Studies prove that a cancer patients psychological state, namely their "will to live" will affect their prognosis. The above average/empathic doctor is much more likely to foster this state in a patient then the brilliant/dispassionate doctor. Your arguement of intelligence reigning supreme over humility probably only applies to surgery assuming that the surgeon has zero patient contact. There are probably surgeons out there who would disagree and there are definitely surgeons out there who would bite your head off for what you are saying.
Most oncologists will use a certain treatment algorythim(sorry for misspelling) for a given type of cancer based upon the type, how much it has spread, and other pathology. This algorythim is standardized and routine. It doesn't matter if the oncologist is brilliant/dispassionate or above average/empathic. Doctors rarely make up treatment options as they go which is where intelligence is very useful. Research of course is where brilliance helps. Now let's look at the other side of the coin. Studies prove that a cancer patients psychological state, namely their "will to live" will affect their prognosis. The above average/empathic doctor is much more likely to foster this state in a patient then the brilliant/dispassionate doctor. Your arguement of intelligence reigning supreme over humility probably only applies to surgery assuming that the surgeon has zero patient contact. There are probably surgeons out there who would disagree and there are definitely surgeons out there who would bite your head off for what you are saying.
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Miglo, is this fun to watch or what?
as a suggestion,
Chill out folks and respond to legitimate topics, not the ranting of someone you dont know personally who is making some legitimate points while also making some very outlandish claims.....respond to the LEGITIMATE ONES...personally, why would i want to ask an anonymous person their MCATS?
aren't they just going to tell you a score that fits their posting? especially if their prior postings have obvious untruths within them?
So Royce thinks you are a loser...so what, who is ROYCE???? has he got a medical degree? is he on any committees choosing you?
does he seem to have the ability to discuss things rationally and dispassionately?
IF so, then certainly discourse is appropriate, but if TO YOU he seems like a childish whiner with some type of agenda you will never discover, why waste time on him?
I of course am not willing to take either opinion toward him, as i dont know him or even if he is a single person or a set of people or a schizophrenic for that matter.
Part of being a physician in training is realizing who is important and who is not, wasting time on the unimportant will take valuable time away from you spending time with the important people...two years from now you will know where i am coming from.
as a suggestion,
Chill out folks and respond to legitimate topics, not the ranting of someone you dont know personally who is making some legitimate points while also making some very outlandish claims.....respond to the LEGITIMATE ONES...personally, why would i want to ask an anonymous person their MCATS?
aren't they just going to tell you a score that fits their posting? especially if their prior postings have obvious untruths within them?
So Royce thinks you are a loser...so what, who is ROYCE???? has he got a medical degree? is he on any committees choosing you?
does he seem to have the ability to discuss things rationally and dispassionately?
IF so, then certainly discourse is appropriate, but if TO YOU he seems like a childish whiner with some type of agenda you will never discover, why waste time on him?
I of course am not willing to take either opinion toward him, as i dont know him or even if he is a single person or a set of people or a schizophrenic for that matter.
Part of being a physician in training is realizing who is important and who is not, wasting time on the unimportant will take valuable time away from you spending time with the important people...two years from now you will know where i am coming from.
I think that it is interesting to read the attitudes of certain pre-meds concerning osteopathic medicine. I am actually glad that the person who "bashed" osteopathic medicine posted. It says something about the need for better education concerning what osteopathic medicine is.
Today, there are a number of students who turn down MD acceptances and take DO ones. If you don't believe me, check out other posts on this site. For a large number of students, DO schools are a backup...and it is unfortunate, but all students should have the right to apply to DO schools.
I am also interested in the whole intelligence & emotion "debate." Isn't this what osteopathic medicine is about? DOs are darn near required to be emotional and empathetic with their patients. This is what makes them who they are. Would you rather be the digestive distress in room one, or Walter Jackson in room one...your choice.
I hope that everyone who reads this string takes everything for what it is worth. Although lots of things here are true, many are overstated and not quite true. If there are still some unanswered questions for pre-meds out there, check out our webpage for pre-DO students at www.geocities.com/wannabe_doctor
Good luck to all of you,
Today, there are a number of students who turn down MD acceptances and take DO ones. If you don't believe me, check out other posts on this site. For a large number of students, DO schools are a backup...and it is unfortunate, but all students should have the right to apply to DO schools.
I am also interested in the whole intelligence & emotion "debate." Isn't this what osteopathic medicine is about? DOs are darn near required to be emotional and empathetic with their patients. This is what makes them who they are. Would you rather be the digestive distress in room one, or Walter Jackson in room one...your choice.
I hope that everyone who reads this string takes everything for what it is worth. Although lots of things here are true, many are overstated and not quite true. If there are still some unanswered questions for pre-meds out there, check out our webpage for pre-DO students at www.geocities.com/wannabe_doctor
Good luck to all of you,
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Adrian, rest assured my friend that I am one person, with a very obvious agenda, which is to give an opposing opinion to Young Jock--and the other people who are no doubt taking this whole fiasco in--so that they may make am well-informed decision regarding their education.
I have no need to confabulate in order to list what people here seem to consider an "impressive" MCAT score. I told the truth about my score. Furthermore, in my family, where PhDs in the physical science are the norm, I've been considered the black sheep for becoming "only an MD."
Of course one would prefer to have both an empathetic AND intelligent oncologist. But if one can avail oneself to just one, well I think you would agree that it's better to have the anti-social genius handling your treatment regime rather than the good-natured dude who isn't quite sure which way to go next.
To argue that people who go to Harvard are not going to be better doctors in academic and research areas of medicine, which is a major component of oncology, not to mention surgery and some aspects of psychiatry, just tells me that I am talking to people who either are too busy thanking their lucky stars that the DO schools exist or are just too bloody obstinate and/or dumb to admit this.
Sure, you'll find a few DOs in high-ranking positions (e.g. Surgeon General of the US Army, Head of Anesthesiology Association, etc.). But you're going to be hard-pressed to find a lot of them relative to the total number of DOs in practice.
Just admit it: there's prejudice against you at this point in the game. That makes it harder to get certain residencies. It also means more hassles when it comes to getting funding for a research project, getting patients in certain areas of the country, and practicing outside of the US. Shouldn't pre-medical applicants be told this? Or is it easier for you to live with the limitations of your own program(s) by denying them?
[This message has been edited by Royce (edited 06-28-2000).]
I have no need to confabulate in order to list what people here seem to consider an "impressive" MCAT score. I told the truth about my score. Furthermore, in my family, where PhDs in the physical science are the norm, I've been considered the black sheep for becoming "only an MD."
Of course one would prefer to have both an empathetic AND intelligent oncologist. But if one can avail oneself to just one, well I think you would agree that it's better to have the anti-social genius handling your treatment regime rather than the good-natured dude who isn't quite sure which way to go next.
To argue that people who go to Harvard are not going to be better doctors in academic and research areas of medicine, which is a major component of oncology, not to mention surgery and some aspects of psychiatry, just tells me that I am talking to people who either are too busy thanking their lucky stars that the DO schools exist or are just too bloody obstinate and/or dumb to admit this.
Sure, you'll find a few DOs in high-ranking positions (e.g. Surgeon General of the US Army, Head of Anesthesiology Association, etc.). But you're going to be hard-pressed to find a lot of them relative to the total number of DOs in practice.
Just admit it: there's prejudice against you at this point in the game. That makes it harder to get certain residencies. It also means more hassles when it comes to getting funding for a research project, getting patients in certain areas of the country, and practicing outside of the US. Shouldn't pre-medical applicants be told this? Or is it easier for you to live with the limitations of your own program(s) by denying them?
[This message has been edited by Royce (edited 06-28-2000).]
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I usually post over on the MD side of the boards, but this is much more interesting. Royce, I'm curious: you come from a family of PhDs, your MCATs were stellar-- why did you even apply to osteopathic schools? My score, while above 30, was much less competitive than yours, but I didn't apply to DO schools primarily because I didn't want to explain for the rest of my life that yes, I'm a real doctor, too. (I'm from CA, and the profession has a low profile here).
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Fiatslug,
My family's academic pedigree has nothing to do with my decision to apply to DO schools. I applied to them because you can become a doctor by following that route. However, as I later found, DOs are not as well-regarded as MDs in many areas, so I chose the MD route and I suspect that I will be quite happy I did so.
Believe me, physicsts and chemists don't generally think of any doctors as terribly impressive--unless you're talking about an MD/PhD, that is. Sad but true.
My family's academic pedigree has nothing to do with my decision to apply to DO schools. I applied to them because you can become a doctor by following that route. However, as I later found, DOs are not as well-regarded as MDs in many areas, so I chose the MD route and I suspect that I will be quite happy I did so.
Believe me, physicsts and chemists don't generally think of any doctors as terribly impressive--unless you're talking about an MD/PhD, that is. Sad but true.
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Royce-o-roni,
Is this ever gonna end? Your points are silly and futile. What do you want DO students to say? If I said, "Roycemeister, you are right and correct about everything, you are the best, I am second rate compared to you, and my MCAT was a 3" will you go back "la la land Royce world"?
Thanks,
Wheat.
Is this ever gonna end? Your points are silly and futile. What do you want DO students to say? If I said, "Roycemeister, you are right and correct about everything, you are the best, I am second rate compared to you, and my MCAT was a 3" will you go back "la la land Royce world"?
Thanks,
Wheat.
Royce, you are applying the same arrogance to DOs that your family is applying to your MD.
I hope you are not projecting. Anyway, Noone here is arguing with you that certain parts of the country are DO biased,or that DOs may have a harder time getting an ACGME specialist residency. Youngjock could read about this on the osteopathic FAQ web page on the studentdoctor.net. Things are changing for the better, the info on the web pages you referred people to regarding TCOM are dated by 12-15 years. Look at TCOMs profile on medschool.com now. Average GPA 3.7 MCATs in the 9-10 range if my memory serves. That quack alert web page is overly cynical and I could find several M.D.s and D.O.s that would disagree with the contents on that page. He quotes one study that refutes cranial manipulation. There are many other, better studies that support cranial manipulation. By the way, scientific fact: The cranial bones of newborns and toddlers aren't fused yet, and the majority of patients seen by cranial osteopaths are children. Another thing to keep in mind is that your school used to be a DO school. It was taken over my M.D.s during the "consolidation". Your alums and maybe even some of your attendings are going to be DOs. You better check your attitude in at the door or they will tear you a new one come rotations. We'll also see if you change your attitude about intelligent ass hole doctors when you get one as an attending during your rotations, internship, and/or residency.
I hope you are not projecting. Anyway, Noone here is arguing with you that certain parts of the country are DO biased,or that DOs may have a harder time getting an ACGME specialist residency. Youngjock could read about this on the osteopathic FAQ web page on the studentdoctor.net. Things are changing for the better, the info on the web pages you referred people to regarding TCOM are dated by 12-15 years. Look at TCOMs profile on medschool.com now. Average GPA 3.7 MCATs in the 9-10 range if my memory serves. That quack alert web page is overly cynical and I could find several M.D.s and D.O.s that would disagree with the contents on that page. He quotes one study that refutes cranial manipulation. There are many other, better studies that support cranial manipulation. By the way, scientific fact: The cranial bones of newborns and toddlers aren't fused yet, and the majority of patients seen by cranial osteopaths are children. Another thing to keep in mind is that your school used to be a DO school. It was taken over my M.D.s during the "consolidation". Your alums and maybe even some of your attendings are going to be DOs. You better check your attitude in at the door or they will tear you a new one come rotations. We'll also see if you change your attitude about intelligent ass hole doctors when you get one as an attending during your rotations, internship, and/or residency.
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Be careful about voicing that opinion on this website. There seems to be a lot of DO people on this site from Western, and they have absolutely no tolerance for the truth regarding their chose career. One in fact even told me he "hates people like [me]."
Hey, isn't tolerance for another person's views one of the hallmarks of a humanitarian? Isn't that one of the essential differences between MDs and their nice-guy DO counterparts?
I guess it's more hype than substance. What a surprise.
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Royce, my mistake about UC Irvine, however the rest of the post holds true. I simply misremembered which school you got into. Anyway, tolerance is fine however when people are insulted they'll defend themselves. You would do the same if I started berrating your school.
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If you recall from my earliest posts, I told people that I too had looked into DO schools. I gave a pretty fair assesment of the schools I had knowledge of, and made it clear that is was my OPINION, not the carved-in-stone truth.
However, people soon rallied to the defence of their field and then the mud began to fly.
You gotta wonder why it is that the Farmer is trying to pick a fight with someone he calls a "dork" over the Internet.
However, people soon rallied to the defence of their field and then the mud began to fly.
You gotta wonder why it is that the Farmer is trying to pick a fight with someone he calls a "dork" over the Internet.
This is hilarious stuff! I came across this sight while trying to track down so site for a friend, and it's like a soap opera and I've read the dialogue with great amusement.
I am not a physician in training but I can remember five or six years ago seeing these debates when my wife was applying to med school and I was looking for info sites. She is currently starting residency at the University of Toronto... but I digress... this post is about MD's & DO's... Can someone tell me what the deal is... We don't have DO schools in Canada but I did have an opportunity to work in an DO inner city hospital in a large midwestern city that was part of DO medical school, while I was putting myself through grad school. I had never heard of a DO before my first day of work there, but what an eye opener. Here I am on this locked psych ward in a poor inner city hospital with this group of medical students in from the suburban campus for their clerkships. Their first day the staff DO psychiatrist comes in an tells them, "You treat the chart first and the patient second!" They all nodded appreciably and wrote these words of wisdom down! They spent their six weeks on the unit in the chart room or in the hallway practising "back cracking" on each other and the patients, most of which were more than happy for the attention. I thought that a little odd to say the least. What's with this chiropractic stuff? Please help me with my ignorance.
Anyway, I'm enjoying your banter, and Royce... I think you've hit some serious nerves. Nice scores by the way!
Later..
I am not a physician in training but I can remember five or six years ago seeing these debates when my wife was applying to med school and I was looking for info sites. She is currently starting residency at the University of Toronto... but I digress... this post is about MD's & DO's... Can someone tell me what the deal is... We don't have DO schools in Canada but I did have an opportunity to work in an DO inner city hospital in a large midwestern city that was part of DO medical school, while I was putting myself through grad school. I had never heard of a DO before my first day of work there, but what an eye opener. Here I am on this locked psych ward in a poor inner city hospital with this group of medical students in from the suburban campus for their clerkships. Their first day the staff DO psychiatrist comes in an tells them, "You treat the chart first and the patient second!" They all nodded appreciably and wrote these words of wisdom down! They spent their six weeks on the unit in the chart room or in the hallway practising "back cracking" on each other and the patients, most of which were more than happy for the attention. I thought that a little odd to say the least. What's with this chiropractic stuff? Please help me with my ignorance.
Anyway, I'm enjoying your banter, and Royce... I think you've hit some serious nerves. Nice scores by the way!
Later..
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This is a most amusing situation you all have created (misspellings and all). First off like QCC I am not a physician and came across this site while looking for some ideas on how to pay back my wife's loans. She a D.O. and is currently attending an allopathic internship. She is working at my school. I'm a Ph.D. candidate and should graduate next year.
Before you all read any of this and start flaming, I've been around the internet for a long time and have been involved in many flaming situations so I don't care.
Here is an outsider's view.
One: In my humble small-minded opinion 80% of all medical students are in the profession not because they want to help people but because they want the prestige and money (student loans, lawyers and HMOs get most of the money).
(Side comment) During my studies I have taken some classes with the local medical students. During these classes the medical students were given notes and back tests, while the graduate students were not (we did obtain a couple, so not a big deal). Also, after the tests (this is good) the medical students were subjected to a curve while we (graduate students) were not and had to produce a straight 85% or better to pass. Ok sorry this is not the time or place for my rants and raves. (I would not and never do want the class load the all medical students have to carry, so statement moot). Ok, back to issue one. The attitudes that I received (better then you and I'm gonna be a god or at least a small demigod, syndrome) only served to augment my above opinion. When I visited my wife's school, I observed a friendlier and more personal atmosphere.
Two: My wife had to jump through way too many hoops in order to attend this internship. Wait D.O.s, it was not the allopathic school causing the problem. They allopath school) said sure in less than two days. It was the AOA and not sure who else I am not up on all the TLAs (3 letter acronyms).
Another outsider's small-minded opinion: It does not seem to me that the allopaths are the major problem. The ruling ostopaths seem to be trying to alienate themselves from the allopaths. This I believe this is bad, very bad. Both forms of training can produce outstanding doctors, but if the person is no good then the doctor will be no good. It's like the Robin Williams movie Patch Adams (the scene where the professor says something like: we are here to teach you medicine and drive the humanity out of you (everyone laughed and laughed, but true??? Ask yourselves).
Little more background on yours truly. I thought about going to medical school and even took the MCATS (score: not as high as Royce but close). Prior to leaving collage I became an EMT and ran with a fire department. That was it I hated patients thus no med-school for me.
That's it let the one-ended flaming begin.
Before you all read any of this and start flaming, I've been around the internet for a long time and have been involved in many flaming situations so I don't care.
Here is an outsider's view.
One: In my humble small-minded opinion 80% of all medical students are in the profession not because they want to help people but because they want the prestige and money (student loans, lawyers and HMOs get most of the money).
(Side comment) During my studies I have taken some classes with the local medical students. During these classes the medical students were given notes and back tests, while the graduate students were not (we did obtain a couple, so not a big deal). Also, after the tests (this is good) the medical students were subjected to a curve while we (graduate students) were not and had to produce a straight 85% or better to pass. Ok sorry this is not the time or place for my rants and raves. (I would not and never do want the class load the all medical students have to carry, so statement moot). Ok, back to issue one. The attitudes that I received (better then you and I'm gonna be a god or at least a small demigod, syndrome) only served to augment my above opinion. When I visited my wife's school, I observed a friendlier and more personal atmosphere.
Two: My wife had to jump through way too many hoops in order to attend this internship. Wait D.O.s, it was not the allopathic school causing the problem. They allopath school) said sure in less than two days. It was the AOA and not sure who else I am not up on all the TLAs (3 letter acronyms).
Another outsider's small-minded opinion: It does not seem to me that the allopaths are the major problem. The ruling ostopaths seem to be trying to alienate themselves from the allopaths. This I believe this is bad, very bad. Both forms of training can produce outstanding doctors, but if the person is no good then the doctor will be no good. It's like the Robin Williams movie Patch Adams (the scene where the professor says something like: we are here to teach you medicine and drive the humanity out of you (everyone laughed and laughed, but true??? Ask yourselves).
Little more background on yours truly. I thought about going to medical school and even took the MCATS (score: not as high as Royce but close). Prior to leaving collage I became an EMT and ran with a fire department. That was it I hated patients thus no med-school for me.
That's it let the one-ended flaming begin.
I have to actually agree with the previous post. Though I am a supporter of the field of osteopathic medicine, I too believe that some osteopaths do seperate themselves. Though the AOA's stance on promoting osteopathic medicine awareness is fine, I do have a problem with the organization saying that osteopathy is unique in that it takes a whole-person approach to medical care. There are many MD's who take this approach to medical care.
As a DO you have to expect to explain what your degree is when asked, and you have to be willing to accept that many people don't know what it is. I've seen many wonderful improvements with the utilization of OMT on patients and plan to incorporate it into my practice of medicine. I am one of the few people who applied to DO schools exclusively because it was truly the type of medicine I wanted to practice.
Arnold
WESTERN U/COMP CLASS OF 2004
http://members.xoom.com/omasucsd/logo.htm
As a DO you have to expect to explain what your degree is when asked, and you have to be willing to accept that many people don't know what it is. I've seen many wonderful improvements with the utilization of OMT on patients and plan to incorporate it into my practice of medicine. I am one of the few people who applied to DO schools exclusively because it was truly the type of medicine I wanted to practice.
Arnold
WESTERN U/COMP CLASS OF 2004
http://members.xoom.com/omasucsd/logo.htm
