md income

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lazgirl24

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I know that the avg. income for MD's are 250,000, but isn't that after years of practice. I heard that some don't even earn near that amount. is that true?
 
I would say 250 might be a little high.

For some Specialties that is the average, but lots of
docs make closer to 100,000 to 150, 000 a year. Maybe the high earning specialties would bring the average up to 250 g, but especially fresh out of residency I would say the figure is closer to 100 grand.
 
MD's make 100k right out of residency? i thought that they made more.
 
nice to see people are getting into medicine for the right reasons... you guys sound like the spoiled athletes. doctors are probably in the top 5% in terms of average income - isn't that enough? people manage to live on 30K/yr and some doctors complain that 100K isn't enough? if you wanna make a ton of money go into law... and then you can be an ambulance chaser suing those of us that actually contribute to society. if you get through med school you're gonna be very comfortable. that ought to be enough.
 
A family pracitce/internal medicane guy will make 100K

A neuro,ortho or plasics surgeon would be much higher. Depending on if you join a practice and are the low man on the totem pole or start your own. 500K starting your own practice is not unreasonable. Many, many make more. Any statistical studies you see abut salary are what doctors claim their income is. Oftet times if a doctor runs his own pactice the pracitce owns his house and cars and their payments, as well as many other tax evading dollars, are not refleted in his salary.

The key to being rich is getting paid nothing, but owning everything. Thats how a doctor can live a great life but have an unimpressive "income". Income is a loose term when you run a business.
 
i am not going into medicine to make tons of money. I just want to be able to make a nice living while doing what I (will) like.
 
I love all these self rightious people "you want to be doctor for the wrong reasons." look i think the vast majority of people want to be MDs b/c they enjoy it..not b/c of the money. But EVERYONE looks at a job in terms of financial stability as well. Its perfectly within reason to ask the amt of $$$ that a job will make. And i think the figure of 100K is low end of after residency and 150k is high end for a general practioner. almost all specilties are another +50ish on the income scale.
 
There are always people who attack as soon as they see a post about money.

As with any profession, money should be considered. It shouldn't be the most important thing, obviously.
 
Originally posted by mlw03
nice to see people are getting into medicine for the right reasons... you guys sound like the spoiled athletes. doctors are probably in the top 5% in terms of average income - isn't that enough? people manage to live on 30K/yr and some doctors complain that 100K isn't enough? if you wanna make a ton of money go into law... and then you can be an ambulance chaser suing those of us that actually contribute to society. if you get through med school you're gonna be very comfortable. that ought to be enough.
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So once you finish residency, are you going to donate all your salary minus 30k to charity?

I didn't think so
🙄
 
out of residency, if you're primary care i highly doubt you'll be making 100K after taxes. i was under the impression that it's more like 75K. at least that's double what you made as a resident during which you were working 100 hours a week
 
So once you finish residency, are you going to donate all your salary minus 30k to charity?

I didn't think so

my reply:
actually this is something i have considered (the donating to charity thing posted above), although not exactly how you suggest it. one year, when i am in my 40s or 50s and financially secure i would like to donate an entire year's salary to charity, choosing a different charity each pay period. my hope would be to draw media attention and then make the point that if i could afford to donate a year's salary then perhaps others could afford to do the same. for example, does a doctor really need to spend 40K on a lexus when a 20K camry is still a very good car? i'm not saying money isn't nice, and i'm not self-righteous. it's more that i'm a little socialist, but that's another discussion for another day.
 
I'm not gonna lie... the money part of the equation for being a doctor is definately appealing; even if it is "only" 100K 😛

... but, I do have to say I think being a doctor (from my clinical experiences [of course limited as a premed]) would bring just the right amount of variety, repetition, boredom and excitement that fits my personality.

Another SDNer's $.02 . 🙂
 
even though I totally agree that money isn't the most important hting, I think it'd be nice to talk about the money issue without ppl throwing in stuff about how the money isn't the main factor.😀 😛
 
even though I totally agree that money isn't the most important hting, I think it'd be nice to talk about the money issue without ppl throwing in stuff about how the money isn't the main factor.😀 😛
 
i agree with some of the posters... the medical profession allows one to get prestige, financial stability, help others, etc etc. if it was just bout the money, im sure most of us would and could be in the business world. hell, biotech is a nice little field that is blooming that would rake in the money and if it were just about the money, i doubt many of the people who reapply would want to given more money elsewhere

my top three reasons are helping people medically, the prestige, and the financial stability. if those are the wrong reasons to go into medical school, well shoot me dead because i dont see anything wrong with it
 
"one year, when i am in my 40s or 50s and financially secure i would like to donate an entire year's salary to charity, choosing a different charity each pay period. my hope would be to draw media attention"

Ill keep an eye out for you on the news 🙄

Youll find that as your salary increses your spending increases. You will find all sorts of things to do with your money. 2-3 kids all needing cars and college and as long as you have money, no sense in them going into debt when they become doctors ect. youll find that dropping 500K per kid is very easy to do if you feel so inclined. Putting a child though private college undergrad and grad....sheesh...but ill tell you what...if my kid gets accepted to Harvard im not going to say "Go to podunk university, I need to donate all of my money to other people, I mean i know i sacrificed being a father who could be there for you. Sure i could at least be there for you finacialy, but darn it, i have an addiction to self-rightous behavior to attend to. 😛
 
Originally posted by mlw03
So once you finish residency, are you going to donate all your salary minus 30k to charity?

I didn't think so

my reply:
actually this is something i have considered (the donating to charity thing posted above), although not exactly how you suggest it. one year, when i am in my 40s or 50s and financially secure i would like to donate an entire year's salary to charity, choosing a different charity each pay period. my hope would be to draw media attention and then make the point that if i could afford to donate a year's salary then perhaps others could afford to do the same. for example, does a doctor really need to spend 40K on a lexus when a 20K camry is still a very good car? i'm not saying money isn't nice, and i'm not self-righteous. it's more that i'm a little socialist, but that's another discussion for another day.
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You are just a junior in college. Just wait until you shell out 1k++ for applications, sign for 200k in loans, pay 1500 a semester for books, pay 1k for the boards........

You will lose the commie ideas
 
To the OP, try doing a search on physician recruiting websites to get an idea about salaries.
 
Q to the socialist:

Why do you want others to control your capital? If you earn $60K, you can donate $30K to the "20-year Old College Students Who Like Socialism" Activism Charity Fund. If you earn $200K you can donate $170K. You control the capital and its use. Would you rather have someone else control it? Say, greedy Ryo-Ohki, MBA HMO manager who likes to donate to the "Die, Socialist Pigs" Cleansing Fund. So, why do you want others to control the capital?
 
Originally posted by femdoc
To the OP, try doing a search on physician recruiting websites to get an idea about salaries.
Click to expand...

There are links to physician salary surveys in this thread.

SDN Thread about salaries
 
Originally posted by luckyzero


As with any profession, money should be considered. It shouldn't be the most important thing, obviously.
Click to expand...

For the sake of argument, people always say this but never give any reasons as to WHY.

Why isn't money the most important thing? Can such a blanket statement be applied to ALL people in ALL parts of the world?
 
"For the sake of argument, people always say this but never give any reasons as to WHY.

Why isn't money the most important thing? "

Because one can always make more. Right now you could be working somewhere instead of sitting on the computer. Your not because at some point money is not all that matters. If you make 1 million a year and work 10 out of your 16 waking hours, do you think your life would impove by working 14 of your waking hours and making 1.4 mill? Heck no. As you will come to find out. Free time can be very valuable. If im making 1 mill a year, or 3grand a day, im not going to bother arguing with a car sales man for 4 hours because i think he's trying to charge me 2K extra on my car. Im not going to sit on hold with the phone company for an hour waiting to resovle a 20 dollar over charge on my bill. Time is money and the less time you have the more its worth.
 
It's not a blanket statement that applies to everyone, but it's more or less common sense, it seems to me.

Would you rather have a lot of money or be happy? And by happy, I mean in a profound, fulfilled kind of way. If you accept that money can't buy that kind of happiness, then it seems like a pretty simple choice to me.

Some people do go into things just for the money though, because they think that by having a lot of wealth they will be happier or be a better person somehow. I think this is shallow and materialistic, but then again I've never placed a lot of value on possesssions or objects, so some might disagree with me.
 
i don't kno what u people who claim we'll be rich and comfortable are talking about.. personally i'm gonna be 200,000 in doubt when i get out of school ..... and by the time i manage to pay that off, i'll probably have a mortgage from buyin a house and all.... its def not the career where you'll be making good money unless of course u don't have to borrow money cuz ur parents are payin for ur med school or something.... but say if we did get a lot, i would think it is important and deserved after all the years of hard work and slave labor as a resident!! cmon now, thats definitely earned money....
 
Many ppl buy houses and have mortgages to pay off. Many students also have loans to pay off, not just doctors.
 
obviously money is important. if you think you can live happily on 50k a year, see what happens when you want to buy nice clothes, or a nice car, or a nice house, or give your kids all the things you never had. a 100k is not great either, especially the way things are priced these days. you can live on it, but you will not have the kind of security 300k or so produces.

why would i spend a half million on education, and 8 years in college and another 5 in residency/fellowship so i can make as much as some schmuck who studied engineering for 4 years and has been working since he was 22? clearly, there are many motivations, and financial is one of them.

everyone going into medicine wants to make good pay, despite what they say. maybe money is not the primary thing for alot of people, but there is a reason that the most competitive job is mediicne and the most competitive residencies pay the most.

everyone who says they don't care about money is lying, since you could always work for less money...even as a doctor. just become a doctor and volunteer at a free clinic all the time...you won't do it, because no one ever does.

doctors have a higher standard of living than the majority...they don't do it on a 100k a year. i am sure on average, most middle class homes bring home 100k a year (with two working people), so if you make 200k, its not like you're heads above them, since doctors live in better neighborhoods, drive better cars, go to better schools, and tend to spend money more than your average person. whatever these averages say, my own experience with this field (as someone who knows doctors, lives with doctors in his neighborhood, goes to an ivy school full of the children of doctors, etc.) say compensation is very good if you want it to be.
 
Originally posted by mlw03
if you wanna make a ton of money go into law... and then you can be an ambulance chaser suing those of us that actually contribute to society. if you get through med school you're gonna be very comfortable. that ought to be enough.
Click to expand...

the average lawyer makes less than the average doctor... by quite a bit.... www.bls.gov i think avg lawyer makes like 80k whereas the avg doc makes 160k... medicine is one average twice that of law and in medicine you are guarenteed a job, whereas in law there are so many lawyers that a lot of the new grads are having a hard time finding jobs.. that is why there are those so called "ambulence chasers". just open the yellow pages....

i kinda get tired of people always saying if you want to make the big $$$, then go into law. yeah, there are lawyers who make good money between 100 and 200k, but for every johny cochran there are like 12+ guys just itching to get work.
 
first off, to all of you who want to call me a socialist, i was primarily referring to my advocacy of a less capitalisitic healthcare system. i object to insurance companies getting rich while others, including DOCTORS, lose autonomy and MONEY. i'm also not happy with the number of uninsured and under-insured in this country. i wholly agree that doctors deserve to make a lot of money - they work their asses off to get there. i do stand by my points that a smart person (which presumably doctors are) could make more money in other fields.

there is also some serious elitism in these posts. there are people talking about spending huge sums of money and making it sound like anyone who can't isn't worthy of their oxygen. of course raising a family is expensive, but plenty of people do it rather well on nowhere near doctors salaries. and to the person talking about dropping 500K on education - public universities can provide a decent education believe it or not. i'm at one and according to the AAMC i'm doing better than the vast majority in terms of my gpa and mcat.

also, i will wholly admit that financial security is damn attractive about medicine. society will always need doctors, period. but my point is this: financial securityy exists at 100K and medicine is extremely demanding, so if money is one's motivation they will ultimately be disappointed.
 
everyone who says they don't care about money is lying, since you could always work for less money...even as a doctor. just become a doctor and volunteer at a free clinic all the time...you won't do it, because no one ever does.
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judoka,

I know several people who are going into medicine right now (some applying and some well into their medical education) who are dead set on being a full-time volunteer. I have another buddy who travels in 3rd world countries all the time for his job and he tells about the amazing doctors he meets (many are VERY highly trained surgeons/specialists) that DO work in poverty stricken countries full time and have done so since residency. These physicians aren't doing it on independent wealth either, they have had to fundraise (yes, some of these are neurosurgeons, hand surgeons, and plastic surgeons who are depending on others to just survive) just to cover their own cost of living and their work. They consider the work they do so important and so fulfilling that they don't care about their lack of a paycheck. I have considered doing full-time medical mission sort of work, but don't know for certain. I will wait and see. Don't be so quick to assume that deep down everyone does care very much about money and nobody actually volunteers full-time. Don't get me wrong, I am sure they would enjoy living a cush life, but some people find other things more rewarding and are willing to give up wealth for that. No, I am not trying to berate those who will become rather weathy from medicine, live in their million dollar home, and drive a Hummer. Medicine IS nice because it can provide financial security. I just want to let you know that a lot of people ARE sincere about not really caring about $$ all too much.

For those of you who have considered doing full-time medical volunteering/mission work, there are organizations out there that will repay all your school debts if you make a commitment to that kind of work.
 
"and to the person talking about dropping 500K on education - public universities can provide a decent education believe it or not. i'm at one and according to the AAMC i'm doing better than the vast majority in terms of my gpa and mcat"

I go to a run of the mill state school, FSU. They only care about football. Taxol was synthesized here and as such the chemisty dept is pretty well funded and good. (major is biochem).
And as for a better GPA and MCAT, more power to you, but how is that evidence of anything? I suppose the mcat scores prove that the anrt teaching you bs over there but do you hanestly think we are getting the quality of teachers and class size at a state school than at a private elite school?

400K in education is easy to spend IF you are inclined.
 
We don't have the class size of private schools here, but I wouldn't doubt the quality of the faculty for a second (at least in the sciences). A lot of top people in their fields will look for public universities because these schools have better facilities and more resources to throw around than most private schools. I consider it a great deal to be going here-- I'm paying less than 40k total for four years of undergrad, which will mean practically negligible debts when I graduate, and I still have access to some of the best professors in the country.

I would say that the major drawback is that it is very easy to just kind of get lost in the crowd here. There are something like 22,000 students here, so it takes a little extra motivation to stand out in the crowd.
 
the last guy makes a good point - i actually go to uf so i suppose we're rivals. anyway, he's right about class size; my major-specific classes in microbiology have well over 100 people in them and the profs do NOT know who you are unless you make a major effort to get to know them. is it better at a private college? i don't know as i have no basis for comparison, but here's the thought process i bet many of us had: if i go to med school i'm going to need a lot of loans, so might as well stay in-state for undergrad as long as the state school is decent. in florida for example, tuition is FREE if you had a good enough high school GPA and SAT score.

in the end i don't think peopple suffer in terms of education, preparedness for medical school, or competitiveness for medical school admissions by not going to a "name" school. unless someone comes from a LOT of family money or is able to get scholarships, public state schools are often the best value.
 
I think that it's important to choose the right public school, just as it would be important to choose the right private school. For example, not to trash my fellow state schoolers, but I wouldn't go to UMass Lowell unless I wanted to go into engineering, and I don't even know what the good programs at UMass Dartmouth are. But Amherst is the place to go for sciences and research, and for the better-quality faculty in general. So just because a state school costs less doesn't mean it's a good value. You have to choose the right one to make it worth anything.
 
Originally posted by judoka
if you think you can live happily on 50k a year, see what happens when you want to buy nice clothes, or a nice car, or a nice house, or give your kids all the things you never had. a 100k is not great either, especially the way things are priced these days.
Click to expand...

What planet are you from and what reality are you living in? 100k may seem a bit low if you live in NYC, San Fran or Hartford. For the last 4yrs my wife and I have combined for between 80-90k in Austin. Until I decided to go to med school, we lived in a beautiful custom home on a .5 acre treed lot worth $250k. She drove an MB SUV and I had a Lincoln LS. We had a new ski boat, nice Caribbean vacation every year and two kids to take care of. Not to mention, I was putting over 10k/yr in the 401k for the past 8 yrs.

Either you are a spoiled brat and expect the best luxury the world has to offer or you're just smoking crack. Or possibly you have never had a real job and have no idea what you're talking about (like the other 99% on SDN who spout off about money). Go to any major city in TX and see what 100k will get you. Pretty gd nice IMO. There are people who live well and die rich off of 50k and ones who go belly-up on 300k. If you are fiscally irresponsible it won't matter how much you make. Rest assured, 100k is a lot and most Dr's make quite a bit more.

I'm going into medicine because I believe I will like it. However, I never kid myself about the money. If it wasn't going to be good, I wouldn't be doing this. There is no way in hell I'm going to put myself through the next 8yrs of suffering call med school and residency, then struggle financially.
 
"What planet are you from and what reality are you living in? 100k may seem a bit low if you live in NYC, San Fran or Hartford. For the last 4yrs my wife and I have combined for between 80-90k in Austin. Until I decided to go to med school, we lived in a beautiful custom home on a .5 acre treed lot worth $250k. She drove an MB SUV and I had a Lincoln LS. We had a new ski boat, nice Caribbean vacation every year and two kids to take care of. Not to mention, I was putting over 10k/yr in the 401k for the past 8 yrs."

Im not going to get personal and lecture you about your own life.
But. Just treading water isnt swimming. I have know alot of peope how build a house of cards. Buying and buying untill they were in debt up to their eyeballs. Sure i only make 40K but i deserve a Benz...and a nice house....and a vacation.....then once they owe ever cent they can and still make payments and not default somthing happens. A child is born with an expensive disablity. A divorce. Some type of somthing you didnt buy insurance for. Give yourself 40 years of living the middle class illusion and somthing is boung to come along. Branging about how much you bought with how little money just means you in debt. And everyday someone in your city's debt house of cards falls. Knowing the true cost of something, not just the price tag, and being able to generate the capital for it, is something many people cant do today.
 
Originally posted by hightrump
"What planet are you from and what reality are you living in? 100k may seem a bit low if you live in NYC, San Fran or Hartford. For the last 4yrs my wife and I have combined for between 80-90k in Austin. Until I decided to go to med school, we lived in a beautiful custom home on a .5 acre treed lot worth $250k. She drove an MB SUV and I had a Lincoln LS. We had a new ski boat, nice Caribbean vacation every year and two kids to take care of. Not to mention, I was putting over 10k/yr in the 401k for the past 8 yrs."


I you said you USED to live there. If you had bought a place like that with those cars, by the time your kids got into their teens you would shoot yourself. You just cant doo all of that and still have money for kids on 90K once you pay taxes.
Click to expand...

My parents have done all that and they are putting three kids through college (okay...1 done at a private college, myself almost done at a public, and another about to start next year). My dad makes somewhere between 90-100k before taxes. We have lived very comfortably, all the kids have decent cars, all the kids get 4 years of college paid for, and my dad has plenty saved for retirement. That much money can go a long way. I'll have to go with thackl on this one..
 
I reread my post Matt and moderated my opinions.
Also, one man making 100K and having a wife to be able to stay home with kids, is vastly better than the scenario described. Two parents both working full time plain sucks and is another good reason to make sure you make all you can reasonably make.
Im not saying 100K isnt enough, it certainly is enough to raise a family. The other guy said, "not great" , and it aint, epsecially if its combined income.
 
Originally posted by hightrump
I reread my post Matt and moderated my opinions.
Also, one man making 100K and having a wife to be able to stay home with kids, is vastly better than the scenario described. Two parents both working full time plain sucks and is another good reason to make sure you make all you can reasonably make.
Im not saying 100K isnt enough, it certainly is enough to raise a family. The other guy said, "not great" , and it aint, epsecially if its combined income.
Click to expand...

fair enough... 🙂
 
Originally posted by hightrump

Just treading water isnt swimming. I have know alot of peope how build a house of cards. Buying and buying untill they were in debt up to their eyeballs.
Click to expand...

Again, you obviously have no expirience with this and do not know what you are talking about. I had a positive net worth before the age of 25 (no help from anyone) which is 10 years bofore most people. My wife only worked part time (1 to 2 days a week as an RN) and the kids have never even seen a daycare. Our assets always outwieghed debts. After getting alligned for med school we now OWN (yes, blue tittle) a 2001 Nissan Quest, OWN a 2002 Protege5, have NO debt except for 9k in undergrad loans which are back in deferment, over $25k in bank for down payment on a new house for med school and a full, in tact and untouched 401k.

I'm not trying to brag. You have no clue and won't until you work for a while. So much for treading water and building a house of cards.
 
Thackl is right on this one. Money goes a long way if you know how to manage it well. I have friends whose parents just hand them money, and they go and blow it on unnecessary things and generally waste it, and they're always begging their parents for more. Other people I know don't have nearly as much money or are supporting themselves (like me), and somehow our money seems to go a lot further. If you don't know how to take care of your money, it doesn't matter how much you have, because it won't last. Hell, Mike Tyson is filing for bankruptcy, and he's made about 300 million dollars in his life. If you take care of your finances properly, money goes a long way.

In conclusion, those of you who are under the impression that 100k a year isn't enough to live comfortably on, you're wrong, and that's all there is to it.
 
"those of you who are under the impression that 100k a year isn't enough to live comfortably on, you're wrong, and that's all there is to it"

I stand by my statment.

"Im not saying 100K isnt enough, it certainly is enough to raise a family. The other guy said, "not great" , and it aint, epsecially if its combined income (two full timers) ."


"and the kids have never even seen a daycare"

Thats good to hear.

Look im gonna drop out of this debate.

I have supported myeself and made 3K a month working when I was 19-20 to save to pay for college. I know how far it went with no wife and kids, and it was not comfortable.

You sound like your doing fine.

Comfortable/secure is a relative term. I respect you guys but we just dont see eye to eye on this one.
 
The key fact is that he lives in Texas, where you can buy a nice home for $200K and the cost of living is around half that of life on the coasts. If you're in San Francisco, LA, New York, or the like, $100K just doesn't go anywhere near as far. With a shack on a tiny lot costing $500K in these markets and the cost of living being double that of Texas (not to mention a state income tax of up to 10% in CA), you simply couldn't live the lifestyle you're describing on 100K.
 
Originally posted by WatchingWaiting
The key fact is that he lives in Texas
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Austin is well above the national ave WRT cost of living. Dallas, SA and Houston are right around the ave depending on the part of town you reside. I stated in a previous post that 100k would not make you feel wealthy in all locations (parts New England and CA coming to mind here), but you will be comfortable. Some good friends of mine live in one of the most upscale historic neighborhoods in San Jose (Los Gatos) on less than $140k combined. It took over 10yrs and some creative financing to do it, but they are there now, living comfortably loving it.

Most cities will scale pay to offset cost of living. I'm aware there are some large cities with too many Dr's/speciallists and those are generally the ones you hear complainst from. MOVE!!!
 
to me, being comfortable is not having to worry about money. its not being frugal...its just not being wasteful. if you have to plan around money, you don't have enough of it. look, we have different ideas of success, and i am happy that you are comfortable where you are.

i remember when there was a time when people did not live in homes like the one i live in, but now, so many homes are popping up left and right. there was a time when most people didn't have mercedes and bmw's, but now, its not even a status symbol. it means one thing to me...people spend more and save much less. shirts cost 70 bucks these days...if you don't earn 100k year, you shouldn't be buying them. sure, you can always buy things, but what you should buy is different than what you can afford. a night at a nice hotel is only 300-500 bucks, which anyone can actually pay for, but it should not be that way.

living like that, putting most or all of my money into car and home payments, thats not well off. that's hand to mouth, except in a nicer place. there is a huge difference between buying a house wiht money you have to spend and buying a house on money you hope to make.

anyway, if you don't get my point, that's fine, but don't call me spoiled, because i could just say i look at people who live financing everything as idiots living paycheck to paycheck. its ok to live like that, but its certainly nothing to aspire towards.
 
It's damn near impossible to reason with the children on here who have never held a real job, raised a family or run a house hold. I don't recall anyone giving examples of "hand-to-mouth" life styles. I certainly didn't and hit the 401k hard since I was 22 and the kids education accounts (plus education accounts for two nieces).

I did have to plan fanatically though. I don't care how much you make, you must have a plan that fits your lifestyle and projected retirement needs. People who make 200k+ are regulars in bankruptcy court because they don't plan and live hand-to-mouth. But what's the point; you won't get it until you work for a while.
 
Luckily my reasons for going into medicine have nothing to do with money because I already make more than most doctors. But to answer your question, my friend graduated as a DO, went to a pathology residency followed by a fellowship. He started at $170,000 after that, and 3 years later is making close to $300,000. Not bad. I hope this helps. And, I agree that doctors should be well compensated for very hard work, long hours, huge school loans, and the fact that they basically give up most of their free time to serve humanity. They deserve every dollar they earn.
 
I own several businesses.
 
Originally posted by Marianne11
I own several businesses.
Click to expand...

Cool😀 That was high on my list if med school didn't work out. Such a risk in the begining though.
 
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