MD Matching to non-OMM DO Specialty Program

[toastedcheese]

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Graduating from an MD school, why would I not be allowed to compete for a spot at a DO residency in a specialty such as rad, derm, surgery, rad onc, path, ect? Say because it was in an area of the country near family. I assume OMM is not a part of those specialties, but maybe I'm wrong?

I understand that there is discrimination faced by DOs applying to MD residencies, but the option is available and many people do it. If our training is functionally the same with the exception of OMM, why is this option not extended the other direction for those specialties that don't really require OMM training?

 

[hawkeye pierce]

It just isn't.

 

[sideways]

If the osteopathic power structure allowed that, then all the MDs applying to competitive specialties would be casting their nets on the DO residencies. Much like what you're wishing you could do.

By sheer force of much greater MD student body size than DO, this would overshadow all the DO applicants and they'd be pushed out of specialization. Not a very appealing marketing tactic for the profession.

Sorry bro, you should have studied harder if you wanted to be a dermatologist or rad onc lol.

 

[JaggerPlate]

It's pretty hypocritical that DOs can apply for ACGME spots and even have the cahones to complain when they are 'discriminated' against by ACGME PDs, but MD students aren't allowed to apply for AOA spots. Guess what though ...


Wouldn't change a thing.

Like Gary said, it would just bring an unsustainable influx of US MD students on the ROAD spots, and open up the flood gates to Caribbean MD students on all spots. The DO spots are a nice perk/advantage for DO students. If the ACGME decided that we weren't playing fair one day, then it's time to consider it and maybe even try to get all the spots dual approved, but until that time, I'm not willing to give up a competitive spot in the model I trained in simply for the sake of political correctness.

 

[ShyRem]

AOA residencies in those specialties require a traditional rotating internship which do require an OMM component. I believe that the subsequent years also require some aspect of OMM learning/use, although it is likely to just be in quarterly conferences.

Lest you think I'm defending the AOA for their policy, I have long held that if DOs want to be allowed to apply for ACGME residencies, we should also allow MDs to apply for AOA residencies (as long as they can prove knowledge of proper OMT use, technique, etc. prior to acceptance - and yes, there are such courses. Harvard teaches one over the summer).

 

[JaggerPlate]

AOA residencies in those specialties require a traditional rotating internship which do require an OMM component. I believe that the subsequent years also require some aspect of OMM learning/use, although it is likely to just be in quarterly conferences.

Lest you think I'm defending the AOA for their policy, I have long held that if DOs want to be allowed to apply for ACGME residencies, we should also allow MDs to apply for AOA residencies (as long as they can prove knowledge of proper OMT use, technique, etc. prior to acceptance - and yes, there are such courses. Harvard teaches one over the summer).

Yeah, you put it much better than I did - there does need to be some sort of OMT training component before simply entering an AOA residency. Granted, I don't think anyone here is expecting to put in a lot of OMM hours in a DO ophthalmology residency, for example, but you bring up a valid point with the internship, and it's understandable that these non-DO students should at least have an understanding of something we spend 2 years + (in most cases) a 3/4 year rotation doing. I think if the spots were ever opened to MD students (which I'd still be against), taking the COMLEX and meeting a minimum OMT requirement before applying would only be fair.

 

[marke]

how would this affect board certification?

let say if a MD is allow to do an AOA residency --> would they be able to get boarded by AOA specialty boards?

i know some board certification (ie fm) actually has an OMM component --> how would that play out?

i do agree MD should be allowed into AOA residency... but if they do... --> what justify the existence of 2 different residency accreditation program? since both DO and MD can do residency in both --> they might as well merge in that point..

just my 2 cents

 

[toastedcheese]

but until that time, I'm not willing to give up a competitive spot in the model I trained in simply for the sake of political correctness.

Fair enough, can't really fault you guys for wanting to look out for your own. But it does make me much less sympathetic to the idea of equal consideration of DOs for ACGME residencies.

Btw, what a great goddamn game tonight.

 

[Flushot]

how would this affect board certification?

let say if a MD is allow to do an AOA residency --> would they be able to get boarded by AOA specialty boards?

i know some board certification (ie fm) actually has an OMM component --> how would that play out?

i do agree MD should be allowed into AOA residency... but if they do... --> what justify the existence of 2 different residency accreditation program? since both DO and MD can do residency in both --> they might as well merge in that point..

just my 2 cents

I'm guess that would happen. It's just like a DO going ACGME; you're no longer involved with the AOA as far as I know. If I'm not mistaken, if you're at a dually accredited program, you can go either way.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Fair enough, can't really fault you guys for wanting to look out for your own. But it does make me much less sympathetic to the idea of equal consideration of DOs for ACGME residencies.

DOs are still making some really impressive strides into the ACGME world regardless, but you'll never catch me crying foul over US MD bias in the ACGME world.

 

[wannabeOBGYN]

I'm not really sure why DO students complain about MD programs being biased. I am a DO student myself, planning to apply only to DO residencies. We spent two years learning OMT, so why not continue down the same path? If it's a location thing, I understand, as DO residencies tend to be focused in several areas and completely absent in others. But if you want something super competitive, then you have to deal with competing with MD students. Like the OP said, we have our own residencies as well, so we have more opportunities. I can't really blame MDs for preferring MD students. If you just don't want to deal with anymore OMT, well... maybe you should have worked harder in the first place and gotten into an MD school. I'm not saying everyone in DO school is a slacker, because that is not at all true. In my experience, however, most of the people who hate OMT and want to do MD residencies for no obvious reason tend to be the ones who openly admit they couldn't get into an MD school.

 

[Flushot]

I'm not really sure why DO students complain about MD programs being biased. I am a DO student myself, planning to apply only to DO residencies. We spent two years learning OMT, so why not continue down the same path? If it's a location thing, I understand, as DO residencies tend to be focused in several areas and completely absent in others. But if you want something super competitive, then you have to deal with competing with MD students. Like the OP said, we have our own residencies as well, so we have more opportunities. I can't really blame MDs for preferring MD students. If you just don't want to deal with anymore OMT, well... maybe you should have worked harder in the first place and gotten into an MD school. I'm not saying everyone in DO school is a slacker, because that is not at all true. In my experience, however, most of the people who hate OMT and want to do MD residencies for no obvious reason tend to be the ones who openly admit they couldn't get into an MD school.

Well, remember that by sheer numbers, there will be DOs in ACGME. Location matters a lot to many applicants as well, so it's not all about never wanting to touch OMM again.

That said, it is true that only about 5% DOs (could be different now) perform OMM on a regular basis in practice so there are many DOs that go through AOA and never do OMM beyond what was required for residency.

I really don't think your last statement is as true as it seems. People really just want to get to where they want to be, whether it is location, people they're going to work with or name of the hospital.

 

[Colbert]

Well, remember that by sheer numbers, there will be DOs in ACGME. Location matters a lot to many applicants as well, so it's not all about never wanting to touch OMM again.

That said, it is true that only about 5% DOs (could be different now) perform OMM on a regular basis in practice so there are many DOs that go through AOA and never do OMM beyond what was required for residency.

I really don't think your last statement is as true as it seems. People really just want to get to where they want to be, whether it is location, people they're going to work with or name of the hospital.

I've seen this stat tossed around SDN like it's gospel but I've never actually seen any site a legitimate source, so I wouldn't be so bold to say it is true unless you can site it.

That being said, there is OMM training in AOA residences to the tune of about one lecture each month during residency no matter what specialty you choose. I've applied to several dually-accredited programs and the program directors for the MD and DO sides said it's essentially the exact same residency with the addition of a few more hours of OMM lecture.

 

[Flushot]

I've seen this stat tossed around SDN like it's gospel but I've never actually seen any site a legitimate source, so I wouldn't be so bold to say it is true unless you can site it.

That being said, there is OMM training in AOA residences to the tune of about one lecture each month during residency no matter what specialty you choose. I've applied to several dually-accredited programs and the program directors for the MD and DO sides said it's essentially the exact same residency with the addition of a few more hours of OMM lecture.

Ok, fair enough. I only use that stat because even our ICM prof said that was the case, but I guess it's just up to the person if they want to keep going with it or not.

I know an example of Arrowhead in CA that requires their EM residents to do a few structural exams a month, but beyond that, I don't believe they have to have specific OMM lectures. They probably do have some, but overall, it is probably not a major focus.

 

[christina30]

I'm not really sure why DO students complain about MD programs being biased. I am a DO student myself, planning to apply only to DO residencies. We spent two years learning OMT, so why not continue down the same path? If it's a location thing, I understand, as DO residencies tend to be focused in several areas and completely absent in others. But if you want something super competitive, then you have to deal with competing with MD students. Like the OP said, we have our own residencies as well, so we have more opportunities. I can't really blame MDs for preferring MD students. If you just don't want to deal with anymore OMT, well... maybe you should have worked harder in the first place and gotten into an MD school. I'm not saying everyone in DO school is a slacker, because that is not at all true. In my experience, however, most of the people who hate OMT and want to do MD residencies for no obvious reason tend to be the ones who openly admit they couldn't get into an MD school.

This isn't really fair. Of course there are people in DO schools that wish they were in MD schools, I've met quite a few in my class.

As far as residency programs go, I agree with an above poster - it's really about location, the hospital, the specific program, the people that attract students, not just that it's ACGME.

And as for OMT? You're being REALLY unfair - the same way some students hate certain subjects/topics/systems/whatever in medical school, they can also hate OMT. I, for one, don't care for it. Not because I don't believe in it, but mostly because I suck at it. I believe it works in making patients feel better, etc, but OMT is one of those skills that some people have a natural talent for. I am not one of these people - I don't really see myself doing it in the future for this reason.

 

[JaggerPlate]

The '5% only use OMM' stat is one of the great ones that's continually tossed around SDN. I've actually read the article for a class (though I'm not going to find it now) and the data is actually from a scale of the number of physicians (DO) who use OMM on X% of patients. For example:

50% of DOs use OMM on 1% of their patients
20% use OMM on 20% of their patients
10% use OMM on 30% of their patients ... etc

The stat was something along the lines of '5% of practicing DOs use OMM on over 50% of their patients.' So while it's still not like the truth is damning or that I blame people for throwing it around, it's technically not true that only 5% of DOs use OMM.

 

[hawkeye pierce]

http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/reprint/103/5/219.pdf
This article is old, but only about 50% of DO's surveyed used it on less than 5% of patients. 39% were specialists and less likely due to specialty to have use for it to begin with. 70% of family practitioners used it on at least 5% of patients. I think the usage of OMT is higher than people think. It is not used on every patient, but niether are ekg's or surgery.

 

[wannabeOBGYN]

This isn't really fair. Of course there are people in DO schools that wish they were in MD schools, I've met quite a few in my class.

As far as residency programs go, I agree with an above poster - it's really about location, the hospital, the specific program, the people that attract students, not just that it's ACGME.

And as for OMT? You're being REALLY unfair - the same way some students hate certain subjects/topics/systems/whatever in medical school, they can also hate OMT. I, for one, don't care for it. Not because I don't believe in it, but mostly because I suck at it. I believe it works in making patients feel better, etc, but OMT is one of those skills that some people have a natural talent for. I am not one of these people - I don't really see myself doing it in the future for this reason.

I didn't intend to be unfair. Like I said in my post, that's what I have encountered in my own experience. There were a few people who just weren't very good at it and knew they wouldn't do it for that reason, but most people who wanted MD were anti-DO. Maybe people are just more open about their feelings at my school, I don't know.

 

[Skippygonenuts]

you know..i was conincidentally looking for an OMM doc and did some googling and landed on this which led me to my next point...what the hell?

http://npidb.org/doctors/allopathic...neuromusculoskeletal_medicine_omm_204d00000x/

a bunch of NMM/OMM specialist...some MDs, some DOs.

I've read whispers here and there on SDN that MDs can do a rotation (or possibly a fellowship) in OMM and didn't believe much of it...but now i'm wondering is there any truth to this?

 

[christina30]

I didn't intend to be unfair. Like I said in my post, that's what I have encountered in my own experience. There were a few people who just weren't very good at it and knew they wouldn't do it for that reason, but most people who wanted MD were anti-DO. Maybe people are just more open about their feelings at my school, I don't know.

And I think applying ACGME vs. AOA is more about finding a program that suits you as an applicant best, and also specialty and location-dependent. Some specialties have very few AOA spots, OR they're all locaqted in a particular region. what if someone wants to stay in a certain place where an AOA residency isn't provided, etc? There are so many reasons why a DO student would apply to ACGME residencies, and I don't think the "anti-DO" attitude is the most common one.

 

[JaggerPlate]

you know..i was conincidentally looking for an OMM doc and did some googling and landed on this which led me to my next point...what the hell?

http://npidb.org/doctors/allopathic...neuromusculoskeletal_medicine_omm_204d00000x/

a bunch of NMM/OMM specialist...some MDs, some DOs.

I've read whispers here and there on SDN that MDs can do a rotation (or possibly a fellowship) in OMM and didn't believe much of it...but now i'm wondering is there any truth to this?

MDs can do CME courses in OMM, but I don't think they can rotate in it during med school (a straight up OMM/NMM rotation). However, they could probably get a decent amount of exposure doing certain PM&R rotations.

 

[fozzy40]

In at least neurology and PM&R, an MD or DO can subspecialize in NMM.

https://www.aamc.org/students/medstudents/cim/specialties/63776/cim_pub_neurology.html
https://www.aamc.org/students/medstudents/cim/specialties/63694/cim_pub_physmedrehab.html

This is actually a little different. These are referring to a 1 year ACGME accredited fellowship neuromuscular medicine medicine which is a subspecialty certification through neurology and PM&R focusing on disease of the anterior horn cell, peripheral nerves, neuromuscular junction, and myopathies. There is NO manual medicine taught in these fellowships.

NMM in the DO world stands for neuromusculoskeletal medicine which is a residency level training program focusing primarily manual medicine training.

 

[wannabeOBGYN]

And I think applying ACGME vs. AOA is more about finding a program that suits you as an applicant best, and also specialty and location-dependent. Some specialties have very few AOA spots, OR they're all locaqted in a particular region. what if someone wants to stay in a certain place where an AOA residency isn't provided, etc? There are so many reasons why a DO student would apply to ACGME residencies, and I don't think the "anti-DO" attitude is the most common one.

This is the last time I'm going to respond about this, because frankly, I don't know how else I can say it. I never said the anti-DO attitude was the most common reason overall for DO students to apply to ACGME residencies. I merely said it was the most common reason I heard from my classmates. I'm not generalizing it to all ACGME applicants, or to anybody beyond those who said it to me. I was just stating that this was what I heard. If it doesn't apply widely, good. I'm glad to hear most people don't feel this way.

 

[rkaz]

Fair enough, can't really fault you guys for wanting to look out for your own. But it does make me much less sympathetic to the idea of equal consideration of DOs for ACGME residencies.

I can understand your sentiment, and can sympathize with the fact that you must feel frustrated wanting to get into the specialty of your choice and wanting as many options as possible. I also think ideally in the future all residencies should be dually-accredited. HOWEVER, I think it's important to get to this place in a step-wise fashion, as just opening up DO residencies to MD students while the DO bias still exists in MD residencies would just be very disastrous to DO graduates.

For instance, if all DO (AOA) residencies were suddenly opened to MD students, we'd have MD students applying DISPROPORTIONATELY to the ROAD and other competitive DO specialities. I don't expect a great proportion of MD students to be applying to the primary care DO residency programs, as they would likely prefer their own ACGME residency programs due to prestige/location, etc. As it currently stands, there are a greater percentage of DOs (as compared to MDs) going into primary care specialties. Having MD students apply to already competitive DO residencies would only further drive up competition for these spots, reduce the number of DOs in these fields and thus further increase the gap between MDs and DOs in non-primary care medical practices.

Conversely, this is not the current reality when it comes to present day DO students applying to MD residencies, as a large proportion of DO students applying to the MD residency programs ARE applying to primary care and lesser competitive MD specialties. I wish I had some actual stats here to back me up, but you can look at the yearly residency placement sheets that each school produces to see what I'm referring to. While it appears that almost 40-50% of each DO graduating class enters MD residencies, a large proportion of them are in primary care specialties.

In order to start somewhere, I do think it would be appropriate to start inviting MD students to apply for DO residencies, especially in regards to some of the primary care residencies that go unfulfilled each year. After the DO scramble, those open positions should first be made available to US MD students, and then if positions still remain, they should be made open to foreign medical graduates. I think this would be a first step in bridging the gap between DOs and MDs. With time and in step-wise progression, residencies can be made dually-accredited for all, so that DO or MD initials have no bearing on an individual's qualifications for residency. However, in order for this to happen without hurting DOs, it would be essential for the DO bias in MD residencies to dissipate.

So as much as I sympathize with your frustration, I think the AOA/AMA needs to work together to find solutions to this issue that can be beneficial for all, without hurting the other group. If you can find solutions that benefit MDs without hurting DOs, then you could probably get the needed support from both communities.

 

[Styria]

you know..i was conincidentally looking for an OMM doc and did some googling and landed on this which led me to my next point...what the hell?

http://npidb.org/doctors/allopathic...neuromusculoskeletal_medicine_omm_204d00000x/

a bunch of NMM/OMM specialist...some MDs, some DOs.

I've read whispers here and there on SDN that MDs can do a rotation (or possibly a fellowship) in OMM and didn't believe much of it...but now i'm wondering is there any truth to this?

There are MDs out there who are osteopaths. The AAO (the AOA practice affiliate for OMT) is open to MDs as associate (non-voting) members. The cranial courses by the Cranial Academy and SCTF are open to MDs (and dental surgeons), and there were three MDs and one MD student taking the intro course when I did. There are various other courses on manipulation out there, both within the medical profession proper and also ones open to anyone with a license or certification through things like the Barral Institute.

I don't know what the best place is for an interested allopath to start, but they're going to do it through courses and workshops rather than rotations. Even in PM&R, it would be part of a weekly or monthly OMT training that the DOs are doing rather than a specific rotation.

 

[fozzy40]

Just for clarification, manipulative medicine or philosophy is not currently a didactic requirement at ACGME Accredited PM&R Residencies. PM&R is certainly open to manual medicine and it's practitioners. However, I would not try to setup a PM&R rotation to get exposure to manipulation.

 

[hopeinternist]

i can understand your sentiment, and can sympathize with the fact that you must feel frustrated wanting to get into the specialty of your choice and wanting as many options as possible. I also think ideally in the future all residencies should be dually-accredited. However, i think it's important to get to this place in a step-wise fashion, as just opening up do residencies to md students while the do bias still exists in md residencies would just be very disastrous to do graduates.

For instance, if all do (aoa) residencies were suddenly opened to md students, we'd have md students applying disproportionately to the road and other competitive do specialities. I don't expect a great proportion of md students to be applying to the primary care do residency programs, as they would likely prefer their own acgme residency programs due to prestige/location, etc. As it currently stands, there are a greater percentage of dos (as compared to mds) going into primary care specialties. Having md students apply to already competitive do residencies would only further drive up competition for these spots, reduce the number of dos in these fields and thus further increase the gap between mds and dos in non-primary care medical practices.

Conversely, this is not the current reality when it comes to present day do students applying to md residencies, as a large proportion of do students applying to the md residency programs are applying to primary care and lesser competitive md specialties. I wish i had some actual stats here to back me up, but you can look at the yearly residency placement sheets that each school produces to see what i'm referring to. While it appears that almost 40-50% of each do graduating class enters md residencies, a large proportion of them are in primary care specialties.

In order to start somewhere, i do think it would be appropriate to start inviting md students to apply for do residencies, especially in regards to some of the primary care residencies that go unfulfilled each year. After the do scramble, those open positions should first be made available to us md students, and then if positions still remain, they should be made open to foreign medical graduates. I think this would be a first step in bridging the gap between dos and mds. With time and in step-wise progression, residencies can be made dually-accredited for all, so that do or md initials have no bearing on an individual's qualifications for residency. However, in order for this to happen without hurting dos, it would be essential for the do bias in md residencies to dissipate.

So as much as i sympathize with your frustration, i think the aoa/ama needs to work together to find solutions to this issue that can be beneficial for all, without hurting the other group. If you can find solutions that benefit mds without hurting dos, then you could probably get the needed support from both communities.

+1.

 

[hawkeye pierce]

I personally feel that we should stop letting international grads into our residencies( md or do if that were allowed). It is a brain drain on the physicians produced by other countries.

 

[malformation]

AOA residencies in those specialties require a traditional rotating internship which do require an OMM component. I believe that the subsequent years also require some aspect of OMM learning/use, although it is likely to just be in quarterly conferences.

Lest you think I'm defending the AOA for their policy, I have long held that if DOs want to be allowed to apply for ACGME residencies, we should also allow MDs to apply for AOA residencies (as long as they can prove knowledge of proper OMT use, technique, etc. prior to acceptance - and yes, there are such courses. Harvard teaches one over the summer).

As Shyrem so eloquently pointed out, all AOA residencies require one-year of internship (whether separate or included within the residency) which requires the use of OMM.
I personally don't mind if the residencies are open to US MD students as long as they take an OMM course that is equivalent in breadth and depth to the one every osteopathic student takes during their training. I'm sorry summer courses don't count. Could you imagine telling me, the osteopathic student, that I have to be in OMM for two years and then the allopathic students can take a summer course and be as proficient as I am (regardless of whether proficiency is achieved or not). I don't think that would sit well with many of my colleagues including me.

 

[DuxburyPembroke]

As Shyrem so eloquently pointed out, all AOA residencies require one-year of internship (whether separate or included within the residency) which requires the use of OMM.
I personally don’t mind if the residencies are open to US MD students as long as they take an OMM course that is equivalent in breadth and depth to the one every osteopathic student takes during their training. I’m sorry summer courses don’t count. Could you imagine telling me, the osteopathic student, that I have to be in OMM for two years and then the allopathic students can take a summer course and be as proficient as I am (regardless of whether proficiency is achieved or not). I don’t think that would sit well with many of my colleagues including me.

Everything I have learned in 3+ semesters of OMM could be easily learned and practiced in a summer course.

 

[fozzy40]

Everything I have learned in 3+ semesters of OMM could be easily learned and practiced in a summer course.

Personally, I think that "rack'em and crack'em" can be taught very easily to anyone. Like most procedures in medicine, anything is teachable but understanding the philosophy and when it is appropriate to use takes years of experience. Learning the art of palpation and developing your tactile senses definitely takes much more than a summer.

 

[christina30]

Personally, I think that "rack'em and crack'em" can be taught very easily to anyone. Like most procedures in medicine, anything is teachable but understanding the philosophy and when it is appropriate to use takes years of experience. Learning the art of palpation and developing your tactile senses definitely takes much more than a summer.

This! It's not just about learning the different techniques. Though I can't imagine cramming all of that into one course (all of those lectures on theory and THEN labs? no way!)

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I'm not really sure why DO students complain about MD programs being biased. I am a DO student myself, planning to apply only to DO residencies. We spent two years learning OMT, so why not continue down the same path? If it's a location thing, I understand, as DO residencies tend to be focused in several areas and completely absent in others. But if you want something super competitive, then you have to deal with competing with MD students. Like the OP said, we have our own residencies as well, so we have more opportunities. I can't really blame MDs for preferring MD students. If you just don't want to deal with anymore OMT, well... maybe you should have worked harder in the first place and gotten into an MD school. I'm not saying everyone in DO school is a slacker, because that is not at all true. In my experience, however, most of the people who hate OMT and want to do MD residencies for no obvious reason tend to be the ones who openly admit they couldn't get into an MD school.

The most common reason I hear cited for why DOs choose allo residencies is that there is a widely held perception (with a good amount of truth behind it) that allo residencies offer higher-quality training than osteopathic residencies. As I understand it, that's why they're in such high demand by DO students - it's not just that people don't want to deal with OMM anymore (although for a lot of DO applicants that certainly plays a role also).

 

[JaggerPlate]

The most common reason I hear cited for why DOs choose allo residencies is that there is a widely held perception (with a good amount of truth behind it) that allo residencies offer higher-quality training than osteopathic residencies. As I understand it, that's why they're in such high demand by DO students - it's not just that people don't want to deal with OMM anymore (although for a lot of DO applicants that certainly plays a role also).

Yeah, I've heard this before ... but I think the more prevalent reason (I've heard personally) is location. Many people seem to just want to be a ___ologist, and don't really care if it's via the AOA/ACGME, but a LOT of people don't want to have to pack up and move their family to the midwest to do so (which is where a good chunk of the AOA residencies are located).

 

[christina30]

Yeah, I've heard this before ... but I think the more prevalent reason (I've heard personally) is location. Many people seem to just want to be a ___ologist, and don't really care if it's via the AOA/ACGME, but a LOT of people don't want to have to pack up and move their family to the midwest to do so (which is where a good chunk of the AOA residencies are located).

This.

I don't think the whole MD vs. DO prestige issue is as prevalent as people think - it's mostly just on SDN that people seem so obsessed with this topic.

I know my biggest motivator so far (picking a med school) was all location, not MD vs. DO. The same will probably apply to my search for a residency program

 

[PistolPete]

Yeah, location, quality of training, and simply number of spots seem to be the main issues. Here is the 2010 AOA match results page: http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/index.htm

Only 12 AOA neurology spots TOTAL for the whole country? 26 anesthesiology? 8 urology? 24 ENT? Am I reading this right? This is why DO students jump to the ACGME match. The AOA has to get it's act together. There's nothing wrong with FM or IM, but there are other specialties out there too!

 

[NYEMMED]

Yeah, location, quality of training, and simply number of spots seem to be the main issues. Here is the 2010 AOA match results page: http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/index.htm

Only 12 AOA neurology spots TOTAL for the whole country? 26 anesthesiology? 8 urology? 24 ENT? Am I reading this right? This is why DO students jump to the ACGME match. The AOA has to get it's act together. There's nothing wrong with FM or IM, but there are other specialties out there too!

Look at opportunities.osteopathic.org for the complete lists. Just on a quick search for each of these I found 5-10 times the numbers of spots you said you saw...

 

[fozzy40]

I know for a FACT at my hospital, which I am sure has very similar policies as other places, Ophthalmology, Urology, Dermatology, Rad Onc refuse to interview any DO's, but we do have a couple in Ortho. It is not impossible to match well into a highly competitive allopathic residency for DO's, but you have have a stronger application than the MD candidates. If MDs were allowed to enter the DO applicant pool for the once DO only programs, the cream would rise to the top, and then the DO degree would be even more scrutinized simply because there would be a bunch of DO's not matching well.

I don't doubt that there is prejudice and discrimination in the medical world. At least you own up to your ignorance. If you are going to hold preconceived notions based on initials, weird on your sleeve baby! In a weird way, I can respect that. Long live elitism! 🙄

Since you are so proud, what medical school and hospital are you affiliated with?

Overall, agree to disagree...

 

[chet]

Unless you are DO with a stellar USMLE score(no one wants to see COMLEX in the allopathic world), you won't have the luxury to be "choosing" a residency as much as programs will choose you. Most allopathic programs would love to staff the incoming residency class with ALL MDs and all US citizens, but this is difficult to do because of the many "less desirable" spots in the country. In competitive specialties, most program directors refuse to even interview any DOs for spots for a variety of reasons. In the primary care fields, it is not a MAJOR issue simply because there is a HUGE need for primary care physicians especially in residencies at less than desirable places(community hospitals with poor fellowship match rates, small towns, etc. etc.)

MDs can not go into DO only programs because the powers that be at those programs are very pro-DO(some of the major people in charge are DO's themselves). I can only imagine the stigma DO's faced years ago. At my medical school and the medical school of many of my friends, DO's are a running joke(sorry to say it, but its true). I do not necessarily agree to this, but it is what it is. Simply put, it is difficult to get into an MD school, so when someone "settles" for a DO program, it is considered a back door entry to being a doctor(like the Caribbean. In fact, most people I know would rather go to the Caribbean than a DO because down the road they will be an MD an no one will ask where they went to Medical School). Obviously there are a hand full of people who "choose" DO over MD, but I have yet to meet anyone who was a DO that actually tried to sell me on this idea. In addition, most program directors on allopathic residency interviews won't buy it.

I know for a FACT at my hospital, which I am sure has very similar policies as other places, Ophthalmology, Urology, Dermatology, Rad Onc refuse to interview any DO's, but we do have a couple in Ortho. It is not impossible to match well into a highly competitive allopathic residency for DO's, but you have have a stronger application than the MD candidates. If MDs were allowed to enter the DO applicant pool for the once DO only programs, the cream would rise to the top, and then the DO degree would be even more scrutinized simply because there would be a bunch of DO's not matching well.

It sounds a lot like "those people you know" care a lot more about titles and appearances than actual education. No one is going to argue about the difficulty of attaining a competitive Allo residency spot as a DO, but do you really think you have a better chance as a FMG?

Go look at the forums below, check out how many FMG's complain about difficulty of getting an interview.

So basically, your "backdoor" friends seem like good people.

 

[MSmentor018]

I understand that there is discrimination faced by DOs applying to MD residencies, but the option is available and many people do it. If our training is functionally the same with the exception of OMM, why is this option not extended the other direction for those specialties that don't really require OMM training?

I think you're gripe is about getting a spot in a more competitive field in the DO world vs the MD world more than the OMM issue itself. yes you can learn OMM in a course but it no substitute for 2 yrs of practical/academics and philosophy. but you do bring up an interesting point regarding crossing over. some places have implemented a DO/MD combined 4 yr residency with certain number of spots earmarked for each degree. others have a separate but equal DO and MD residency that works side by side with each other with the exception that the DO's must do an extra yr.

 

[MSmentor018]

The Caribbean stigma disappears the first day of residency. The DO stigma follows you forever.

well it disappears... until they know you went there. but the stigma thing is an ugly statement but true

 

[NYEMMED]

Unless you are DO with a stellar USMLE score(no one wants to see COMLEX in the allopathic world), you won't have the luxury to be "choosing" a residency as much as programs will choose you. Most allopathic programs would love to staff the incoming residency class with ALL MDs and all US citizens, but this is difficult to do because of the many "less desirable" spots in the country. In competitive specialties, most program directors refuse to even interview any DOs for spots for a variety of reasons. In the primary care fields, it is not a MAJOR issue simply because there is a HUGE need for primary care physicians especially in residencies at less than desirable places(community hospitals with poor fellowship match rates, small towns, etc. etc.)

MDs can not go into DO only programs because the powers that be at those programs are very pro-DO(some of the major people in charge are DO's themselves). I can only imagine the stigma DO's faced years ago. At my medical school and the medical school of many of my friends, DO's are a running joke(sorry to say it, but its true). I do not necessarily agree to this, but it is what it is. Simply put, it is difficult to get into an MD school, so when someone "settles" for a DO program, it is considered a back door entry to being a doctor(like the Caribbean. In fact, most people I know would rather go to the Caribbean than a DO because down the road they will be an MD an no one will ask where they went to Medical School). Obviously there are a hand full of people who "choose" DO over MD, but I have yet to meet anyone who was a DO that actually tried to sell me on this idea. In addition, most program directors on allopathic residency interviews won't buy it.

I know for a FACT at my hospital, which I am sure has very similar policies as other places, Ophthalmology, Urology, Dermatology, Rad Onc refuse to interview any DO's, but we do have a couple in Ortho. It is not impossible to match well into a highly competitive allopathic residency for DO's, but you have have a stronger application than the MD candidates. If MDs were allowed to enter the DO applicant pool for the once DO only programs, the cream would rise to the top, and then the DO degree would be even more scrutinized simply because there would be a bunch of DO's not matching well.

Hmmm you sound very familiar to a poster who was banned yesterday... Etzio I believe your previous name was right? only makes sense being that you just recently joined... So basically you are trolling...

:troll:

 

[Siggy]

In fact, most people I know would rather go to the Caribbean than a DO because down the road they will be an MD an no one will ask where they went to Medical School.

The funny thing is that, for many specialties, neither matters. If you present to the emergency room, you don't get to choose between the DO or MD EMP. You get who ever picked up the chart. If you need to be admitted to the ICU, you get who ever the intensivist on call is. If you need surgery, you get what surgeon and anesthesiologist is on call. The only people who may care about the difference between DOs and MDs is the people on the credentialing board at the hospital, but they're also going to look at what school you go to.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Interestingly enough ... I read a thread over at valueMD today where a few posters used the same 'if you go to the Caribbean, you get the MD then leave the Caribbean behind, but the DO sticks with you forever' logic and also noticed that EYE MD (lol on the degree designation in the screen name) was pretty well versed in visa issues with regard to FMGs.

Also, I don't even know why I'm replying to the post, but LOL on the 'running joke' comment, your views on elitism, things you deem 'fact,' etc, etc, etc.

 

[Siggy]

Is it bad that I read Value MD sheerly for the schadenfreude?

 

[christina30]

Unless you are DO with a stellar USMLE score(no one wants to see COMLEX in the allopathic world), you won't have the luxury to be "choosing" a residency as much as programs will choose you. Most allopathic programs would love to staff the incoming residency class with ALL MDs and all US citizens, but this is difficult to do because of the many "less desirable" spots in the country. In competitive specialties, most program directors refuse to even interview any DOs for spots for a variety of reasons. In the primary care fields, it is not a MAJOR issue simply because there is a HUGE need for primary care physicians especially in residencies at less than desirable places(community hospitals with poor fellowship match rates, small towns, etc. etc.)

MDs can not go into DO only programs because the powers that be at those programs are very pro-DO(some of the major people in charge are DO's themselves). I can only imagine the stigma DO's faced years ago. At my medical school and the medical school of many of my friends, DO's are a running joke(sorry to say it, but its true). I do not necessarily agree to this, but it is what it is. Simply put, it is difficult to get into an MD school, so when someone "settles" for a DO program, it is considered a back door entry to being a doctor(like the Caribbean. In fact, most people I know would rather go to the Caribbean than a DO because down the road they will be an MD an no one will ask where they went to Medical School). Obviously there are a hand full of people who "choose" DO over MD, but I have yet to meet anyone who was a DO that actually tried to sell me on this idea. In addition, most program directors on allopathic residency interviews won't buy it.

I know for a FACT at my hospital, which I am sure has very similar policies as other places, Ophthalmology, Urology, Dermatology, Rad Onc refuse to interview any DO's, but we do have a couple in Ortho. It is not impossible to match well into a highly competitive allopathic residency for DO's, but you have have a stronger application than the MD candidates. If MDs were allowed to enter the DO applicant pool for the once DO only programs, the cream would rise to the top, and then the DO degree would be even more scrutinized simply because there would be a bunch of DO's not matching well.

So, wait... first you're in medical school, but then at the end of the post you talk about YOUR hospital? If you're just a student, I'm going to take a guess that you don't really know SQUAT about the MD/DO politics of whatever University hospital you're probably referring to. You probably have a handful of anecdotes from other equally uninformed medical students to back up these ridiculous claims.

Your post is full of BS generalizations and ignorance, so I won't even bother justifying most of these ridiculous statements with a reply, because they speak for themselves.

I may go to some "running joke" of a DO school, but it's a DO school that consistently churns out competitive match lists every. single. year. (Believe we had at least one Hopkins match last year - so much for those top hospitals not interviewing DOs EVER.)

 

[fozzy40]

I wont say what university hospital I am affiliated with, but honestly if you really want to be a doctor and the MD route is not possible because of your (on average) lower gpa/mcat then allopathic medical students etc by all means go for the DO. Let us not kid ourselves that for 99% of people, DO school was a backup plan. This is medicine. Elitism is real. It may not be "right", but it exists.

That's what I thought...Good to see that you stand up for what's "not right." Not a judgement, but just a fact as you have stated.