MD ---> OMFS program

[MedNole]

A buddy of mine was telling me about guy who during med school decided he loved OMFS and decided to go that route. Apparently, there are some programs that are willing to accept MD graduates without a prior dentistry background? This particular guy went to Louisville, I believe, and spent six years in the OMFS program where he was also awarded a DMD/DDS. Does anyone know of any other stories like this, or programs that are willing to accept MD grads w/o a dental background?

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[north2southOMFS]

A buddy of mine was telling me about guy who during med school decided he loved OMFS and decided to go that route. Apparently, there are some programs that are willing to accept MD graduates without a prior dentistry background? This particular guy went to Louisville, I believe, and spent six years in the OMFS program where he was also awarded a DMD/DDS. Does anyone know of any other stories like this, or programs that are willing to accept MD grads w/o a dental background?

there are (was?) like 2 or 3 programs that would do that, but the only one i can remember was louisville.

sorry.

 

[TiggerJSA]

there are (was?) like 2 or 3 programs that would do that, but the only one i can remember was louisville.

sorry.

When I interviewed at Michigan, they mentioned there is presently someone in their program doing it as well, but are uncertain whether it will be done again in the future...

 

[toofache32]

I met that Louisville guy on my interview there. He was a med student at OHSU and did a 4th year med school rotation on OMFS. He liked it so he applied, but he didn't match. So he did an intern year of general surgery and re-applied. They took him at Louisville and set up a deal with the dental school similar to the way traditional OMFS residents get fast-tracked through medical school. He had to do 3 years of dental school, but he had already done his general surgery year, so it was still a 6-year program for him.

This is pretty rare. I think Baylor may have done it in the past.

 

[dientesfuertes]

It may be rare elsewhere, but here (Alabama) it happens pretty frequently. There have been 2 MD's going thru the DMD program since I've been here. They exempt them from much of the pre-clinical coursework (i.e. basic sciences), but they still do all the dental pre-clinical stuff, all of the clinical requirements, and get their DMD in 3 years, I think. Of course, the residency is shortened, too, since part of the normal 6 years is spent in med school.

 

[north2southOMFS]

It may be rare elsewhere, but here (Alabama) it happens pretty frequently. There have been 2 MD's going thru the DMD program since I've been here. They exempt them from much of the pre-clinical coursework (i.e. basic sciences), but they still do all the dental pre-clinical stuff, all of the clinical requirements, and get their DMD in 3 years, I think. Of course, the residency is shortened, too, since part of the normal 6 years is spent in med school.

Are they exempt from wearing a tie in the clinic also?

 

[ItsGavinC]

What about medical schools that accept OMFS graduates and allow them to complete their MD degree by doing the M2 and M3 years only?

I have a faculty member who did that, and it sounded like a rarity to me, but I thought I'd run it past you guys to see if you've ever heard of that.

This guy did his DDS in a 6-year program at UMKC. Then, he did OMFS at Northwestern, then he did two years at the Medical College of Virginia to earn his MD.

I think I've heard of 4-year OMFS grads merging into med. programs at the same school after completing OMFS, but not doing what this guy did.

Any thoughts?

 

[toofache32]

What about medical schools that accept OMFS graduates and allow them to complete their MD degree by doing the M2 and M3 years only?

I have a faculty member who did that, and it sounded like a rarity to me, but I thought I'd run it past you guys to see if you've ever heard of that.

This guy did his DDS in a 6-year program at UMKC. Then, he did OMFS at Northwestern, then he did two years at the Medical College of Virginia to earn his MD.

I think I've heard of 4-year OMFS grads merging into med. programs at the same school after completing OMFS, but not doing what this guy did.

Any thoughts?

Virginia has that program in place just as you described for people who have completed OMFS training. Arguably, the 2nd & 3rd years of med school are the most important. The 4th year is a joke and there are only about 3-4 required months at most places. The majority of my "4th year" of med school was spent back on oral surgery.

 

[HiddenTruth]

I'm glad i found this post, cuz I was going to start one with a similar topic. I am a third year MS, and have recently become interested in OMFS. I am on my general surgery rotation currently, and during down time, I scrubbed in a few OMFS cases, and enjoyed the cases quite a bit. I've talked to a few of the residents to get a better understanding of the field. Most of the cases that I saw and assisted were facial trauma, which is what I became really interested in--but I realize that 90% of private practice is NOT that. So, I guess I have a few questions, if u all can help out.

1. Does anyone know of specific programs (louisville has been said, any other specific ones) that will "create" a DDS/OMFS program for MD grads? Are these programs similar to the MD/OMFS programs, in that, you are doing some residency traning during medical school, or will it be traditional, in that, you start all your training after having completed dental school; and, in that case, would I be a traditional "4year" OMFS resident after dental school?

I am assuming, it will be total about 6-7 years, is that accurate? And if i pursue a fellowship, are these the same fellowships that MD ENT's, Plastics guys are shooting for, or they are specific OMFS fellowships?

2. I am interested in finding out the specfics in the cross coverage between ENT and OMFS. I have heard that during training some of the facial trauma is split, but in private practice, they are totally different. Can someone tell me what MOST of private practice would entail as an OMFS? Do most take facial trauma call, or is that just a negative on the bank balance, considering most of the income potential is not through trauma. I'd like to know more about this--in terms of what typical cases will be bringing in most of the revenue, and at the same time, allow you to live a very good lifestyle.

Before anyone bashes me, I am asking this to be more informed about the specialty, not because I am choosing this as a lifestyle specialty ( I would be pursuing a much different specialty) Additionally, the guy I spoke with, basically told me that most OMFS guys in prvt practice, end up working 45-50 hrs, do mostly extractions/implants, and make a very decent living [500k or so], I just want to get a better idea of how privt practice would be and what cases most people end up doing, since income is def. a big part of which cases you pick up.

3. And lastly, I don't really know if I would want to do this-_I just became interested in it. And, I have absolutely no experience in the oral part of the specialty, since medical school doesnt emphasize it at all, which is ofcourse, a big part of the specialty. Does anyone have any suggestions, or anything to throw out, in terms of, whether this would be a bad idea, good idea, doesnt matter--do what u like?? Any other options I would have in a similar medical specialty?--like ENT-->facial plastics, or head and neck ca.

Sorry, for this long and answer seeking post...but I'd really appreciate it if someone in training or practice can shine some insight to my various concerns. Thank you so much.

 

[Yah-E]

I'm glad i found this post, cuz I was going to start one with a similar topic. I am a third year MS, and have recently become interested in OMFS. I am on my general surgery rotation currently, and during down time, I scrubbed in a few OMFS cases, and enjoyed the cases quite a bit. I've talked to a few of the residents to get a better understanding of the field. Most of the cases that I saw and assisted were facial trauma, which is what I became really interested in--but I realize that 90% of private practice is NOT that. So, I guess I have a few questions, if u all can help out.

1. Does anyone know of specific programs (louisville has been said, any other specific ones) that will "create" a DDS/OMFS program for MD grads? Are these programs similar to the MD/OMFS programs, in that, you are doing some residency traning during medical school, or will it be traditional, in that, you start all your training after having completed dental school; and, in that case, would I be a traditional "4year" OMFS resident after dental school?

I am assuming, it will be total about 6-7 years, is that accurate? And if i pursue a fellowship, are these the same fellowships that MD ENT's, Plastics guys are shooting for, or they are specific OMFS fellowships?

2. I am interested in finding out the specfics in the cross coverage between ENT and OMFS. I have heard that during training some of the facial trauma is split, but in private practice, they are totally different. Can someone tell me what MOST of private practice would entail as an OMFS? Do most take facial trauma call, or is that just a negative on the bank balance, considering most of the income potential is not through trauma. I'd like to know more about this--in terms of what typical cases will be bringing in most of the revenue, and at the same time, allow you to live a very good lifestyle.

Before anyone bashes me, I am asking this to be more informed about the specialty, not because I am choosing this as a lifestyle specialty ( I would be pursuing a much different specialty) Additionally, the guy I spoke with, basically told me that most OMFS guys in prvt practice, end up working 45-50 hrs, do mostly extractions/implants, and make a very decent living [500k or so], I just want to get a better idea of how privt practice would be and what cases most people end up doing, since income is def. a big part of which cases you pick up.

3. And lastly, I don't really know if I would want to do this-_I just became interested in it. And, I have absolutely no experience in the oral part of the specialty, since medical school doesnt emphasize it at all, which is ofcourse, a big part of the specialty. Does anyone have any suggestions, or anything to throw out, in terms of, whether this would be a bad idea, good idea, doesnt matter--do what u like?? Any other options I would have in a similar medical specialty?--like ENT-->facial plastics, or head and neck ca.

Sorry, for this long and answer seeking post...but I'd really appreciate it if someone in training or practice can shine some insight to my various concerns. Thank you so much.

You'll probably have to do some dental school. Excited to do some fillings and make some dentures? I would say, maybe minimum of 2 years of dental school stuff to get your DMD degree. Ready to do some dental school?

 

[toofache32]

Which med school do you attend?

1. Does anyone know of specific programs (louisville has been said, any other specific ones) that will "create" a DDS/OMFS program for MD grads? Are these programs similar to the MD/OMFS programs, in that, you are doing some residency traning during medical school, or will it be traditional, in that, you start all your training after having completed dental school; and, in that case, would I be a traditional "4year" OMFS resident after dental school?

I am assuming, it will be total about 6-7 years, is that accurate? And if i pursue a fellowship, are these the same fellowships that MD ENT's, Plastics guys are shooting for, or they are specific OMFS fellowships?

This is so rare that you would probably have to just talk to the programs you're interested in on an individual basis. The program director at U of Louisville is George Kushner, and is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. If you're really interested, send him a letter or email to start the ball rolling. For some reason, Alabama and Baylor (Dallas) come to mind when I try to remember who else has done this. Obviously, it would have to be a program with a dental school. I suspect you'll have to show some serious involvement such as 4th-year rotations through OMFS to show that you know what you're getting into.

Dental school is hard enough to cram into 4 years, and I can't imagine how they could trim it to less than 3 years. Dental students do more of "medical school" than med students do of "dental school" if that makes sense. The first 2 years could probably be streamlined into 1 year, but the 3rd & 4th years of dental school are 2 FULL years....I didn't finish my clinical requirements until 1 week before graduation.

As far as fellowships, if you're board-eligible in OMFS then you'll be eligible for the same OMFS fellowships as other OMFS people. These are generally separate from other specialties such as plastics and ENT.

2. I am interested in finding out the specfics in the cross coverage between ENT and OMFS. I have heard that during training some of the facial trauma is split, but in private practice, they are totally different. Can someone tell me what MOST of private practice would entail as an OMFS? Do most take facial trauma call, or is that just a negative on the bank balance, considering most of the income potential is not through trauma. I'd like to know more about this--in terms of what typical cases will be bringing in most of the revenue, and at the same time, allow you to live a very good lifestyle.

ENT and OMFS overlap in some areas, while they each have their own turf also. They both do facial trauma and cosmetics. ENT does more squamous-cell aerodigestive type cancer, while OMFS tends to do more odontogenic and salivary neoplasms, but this varies between programs. A major part of OMFS that ENT doesn't do is dental extractions, dentoalveolar surgery, implant surgery, orthognathic/craniofacial surgery, bone grafting, and anesthesia. These are mainly things learned in dental school and OMFS residency. If you want to do private practice, the money is in wisdom teeth and implants. OMFS are trained to administer their own general anesthetics, so they also bill for anesthesia and can do the majority of their procedures in their own office.

Hope this helps. Also check out www.aaoms.org for "official" info on the specialty.

 

[WestCoast]

Univ of Michigan is also an option. Brent Ward the program director is interested in having omfs available both ways for dental and medical. check out the website.

 

[north2southOMFS]

Here at LSU in shreveport a student once asked Ghali if he could do that, Ghali basically told him to do dental school, graduate in the top 10%, get 90th or greater percentile on part 1 boards and he'd have a spot for him.

So basically, we can't help you here, mainly becasue we have no dental school to set it up with. You could call LSU in new orleans, they have(had?) a good school with a great OMFS program. I think there new underwater phones are working now.

I would just cold-email(or send letters) to the program directors of various dental school affiliated programs to get an idea if they do it, or be willing to set it up. Don't worry, they will be receptive, program directors love that $hit, it strokes the ego.

Some programs with affiliated dental schools are:

Seattle, Washington
Portland, OR
UOP, SanFran
UCSF, sanfran
Some other california ones i believe
San Antonio, TX
LSU, New orleans
Twin Cities, MN
Iowa City, IA
UIC, in chicago (i think), or maybe the one in Champagne?
UF, in gainesville
SUNY Buffalo
Nova, in Fort lauderdale
UAB, alabama
UMichigan, ann arbor
Louisville, KY
Lexington, KY
and a bunch on the east coast i don't know anything about.

Now some of these are single degree DDS only programs, but i don't know why they wouldn't want a dual trained guy at their place, it would be their loss.

this is all that comes to mind, hope it helps.

As far as scope. Wow, it varies. Like Toofache said, Private OMFS guys basically do teeth and implants and maybe orthognathic surgery. They also probably take call at the private hospital in town so they can retain their hospital privalages. If you want you can do Trauma all you like. But i think you'd be poor, plus all the trauma patients seem to smell, and i dont like that. The fellowships are for OMFS only and they are just like the ones for ENT and Plastics, and just as hard to fill lately because private practice is too lucrative to keep going to school to specialize in something that doesn't pay bills.

Otherwise we are much happier people than ENT and Plastics guys, plus we don't wear cheesy chains around our neck, and sleeveless scrubs like the plastics guys in california on TV. We are normal and happy. We work much less in private practice than they do, make more $$, and only take insured people on the most part.

I too am in MS3 right now. Its nice going through med school not having to worry about what i want to specialize in or what i get for grades as long as i pass.

Peds rocks, hardly ever have to be there.

later dude.

-N2S

 

[toofache32]

...Otherwise we are much happier people than ENT and Plastics guys, plus we don't wear cheesy chains around our neck...

That's the funniest thing I've seen in a long time. Ain't it the truth!

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

That's the funniest thing I've seen in a long time. Ain't it the truth!

N2S does wear suspenders on occasion, though...

 

[north2southOMFS]

N2S does wear suspenders on occasion, though...

Yah, but they are not cheesy, they are dorky. Get it straight. Dude.

 

[Yah-E]

I met that Louisville guy on my interview there. He was a med student at OHSU and did a 4th year med school rotation on OMFS. He liked it so he applied, but he didn't match. So he did an intern year of general surgery and re-applied. They took him at Louisville and set up a deal with the dental school similar to the way traditional OMFS residents get fast-tracked through medical school. He had to do 3 years of dental school, but he had already done his general surgery year, so it was still a 6-year program for him.

This is pretty rare. I think Baylor may have done it in the past.

Here's that guys story:

 

[Doggie]

Here's that guys story:

I met him during my interviews too at Louisville. He was either in his last year or going on to be chief.

There's also another 2nd year who converted from med school.

 

[horizon7117]

Try Loma Linda University School of Dentistry, California.
Program director is Dr. Herford, DDS, MD ... cool guy.

 

[watanka]

Virginia has that program in place just as you described for people who have completed OMFS training. Arguably, the 2nd & 3rd years of med school are the most important. The 4th year is a joke and there are only about 3-4 required months at most places. The majority of my "4th year" of med school was spent back on oral surgery.

this is very interesting... I heard Med people turning OMFS but I never heard 4yr OMFS going to med school after their residency...

So is Virginia only med school that does that??? does anyone know more????

 

[Yah-E]

this is very interesting... I heard Med people turning OMFS but I never heard 4yr OMFS going to med school after their residency...

So is Virginia only med school that does that??? does anyone know more????

Here's your answer:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=58126

 

[toofache32]

this is very interesting... I heard Med people turning OMFS but I never heard 4yr OMFS going to med school after their residency...

So is Virginia only med school that does that??? does anyone know more????

Actually, it's way more common (although not that common) to do med school after OMFS residency.

 

[Bitters]

And the countdown starts until Yah-E questions your information

 

[GatorDMD]

And the countdown starts until Yah-E questions your information

 

[Yah-E]

And the countdown starts until Yah-E questions your information

 

[mygradessuck]

Program at my school hasn't had anyone w/ an OMFS cert. go back and do MD after that... that I know of at least. One guy I know of wanted to do OMFS coming out of med school... OMFS director said go do general surgery internship... grad from 4 years of dental school (w/o basic sciences)... and then apply like any other resident.