MD or DDS surgery

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jmp20

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  1. Pre-Medical
I am an undergrad interested in surgery (Plastics, orthopedics, and oral surgery). I feel like if i want to do oral surgery i have to decide between MD or DDS immediately. I have my heart set on surgery, but i am especially interested in oral. However, i am worried about the competativeness of the oral surgery residencies. I know plastics and ortho are very competative as well, but i'm under the impression that oral surgery is even more competative. Any suggestions on which school (Med or Dent) to apply to? I am interested in Dentistry as well, but i dont want to feel like id rather be doing surgery if i get stuck not getting into an oral surgery residency. Thanks

ps- ive observed surgeries, had surgeries, and have done quite a bit of research about surgery as a career, so i am confident that it is what i want to do.
 
here's my take on it....

assumming you have the grades and personality and a good mcat or dat you can get into either professional school.

provided you dont change your mind about wanting to be some form of surgeon and you make it to that point to apply your senior year of school this is what you are looking at:

1) dentistry has only one true surgical field. the positions are highly competetive and the training programs are limited.

2) medicine has multiple surgical fields to pursue and worst case scenario you can probably find an open general surgery position somewhere....

do the math. your odds of becoming a surgeon are much better if you go to med school.
 
I would go to med school. Backdooring into OMFS would be very difficult as a med student but like Uvula said there are tons of surgical residencies available to med students.
 
Tough decision. I agree with the others when they say that the more safe choice would be to go to medical school. more options. However, I am finishing up my third year of OMS residency and I am more confident than ever in my career choice. OMS is unique in so many ways.....a few bad, but mostly good. I would say that if you heart is set on OMS, then go for it. If you really want it, you'll get it.
 
Would anyone say that being a dentist is very similar to being a surgeon in that it is very technical and manual? I mean the title is Doctor of dental SURGERY. If i did wind up going to dental school and not specializing, would you think i would be content? What are the not so obvious differences between OMFs and Dentists?
 
Would anyone say that being a dentist is very similar to being a surgeon in that it is very technical and manual? I mean the title is Doctor of dental SURGERY. If i did wind up going to dental school and not specializing, would you think i would be content? What are the not so obvious differences between OMFs and Dentists?

As a General Dentist (and in some other dental specialties) you can still perform a number of "surgical procedures." If you want, you can even make the argument that pretty much everything GP's do is "surgical" because it is procedure-based.

Many general dentists perform "oral surgical procedures" like routine to even complex surgical extractions, biopsies, surgical placement of implants, minor bone grafting, soft-tissue grafting etc...

But the vast majority of GP's spend the majority of their time doing restorative and prosthodontic treatment. This may change in the future, but right now that is how it is. Some people practice a broad scope from perio treatment to endodontics and implant surgery.

So to answer your question about being content as a GP, I believe that if you can't get into OMFS and you truly/absolutely don't want to be a general dentist (or attempt another dental specialty) you may never be happy and would be better off considering medicine instead.
 
Thanks for the insight. One more question... how would you compare OMFS residency to say a plastics residency?
 
Go shadow a general dentist for a few weeks and if that's something you can't see yourself doing, then DO NOT apply to dental school. If you apply to dental school and you don't make it into an OMFS program, you are stuck doing general dentistry. If you go to med school first then apply to an OMFS program and don't get in, you will still have some realistic options. Either route will take you around the same time, unless you think you may want to do a 4 year OMFS route which=no MD.
 
Thanks for the insight. One more question... how would you compare OMFS residency to say a plastics residency?

Hmmm...in terms of what? You do OMFS in one, and plastics in the other. Plastics has to follow the 80-hour week rules while OMFS does not.
 
I think you should shadow a dentist, and see if you like the work. You could very much get stuck doing it, if you go this route. You are after all trying to get into a very competitive speciality. If you would like to be a surgeon stick to med, you have so many surgical residency options this way.

Plus you are looking very far ahead. Know that both DDS programs and MD programs are a tough 4 years, they are not stepping stones. As well you have picked two very hard professional programs to attempt to get into.

Good Luck with your decision!
 
You could always be a general dentist but design your practice around placing implants, extracting thirds and perio surgeries...you wouldn't be able to charge as much and wouldnt be able to perform all of the procedures but you would be doing surgery...may be a viable back up plan for you
 
thanks for all the imput. I keep hearing more and more horror stories of going the medical route. It's extremely discouraging to hear doctors tell me not to go through with it, when the only thing i can remember wanting to be in life is a physician. I am not afraid of working hard, but i am afraid not having anything resembling a life outside of my work. I love working with my hands which i know dentistry offers, but at the same time, i feel like dental care doesn't satisfy the scope in which i would like to help people which is one of the main reasons im want to get into healthcare to begin with. please correct me if im wrong. Can anyone share their thoughts about dentistry vs medicine regarding helping people?
 
Can anyone share their thoughts about dentistry vs medicine regarding helping people?

Well, I was once at a restaurant, and this guy suddenly starts screaming "Oh the pain, the agony!!" and he falls to the floor holding his jaw. I rushed to him, and saw he was suffering from acute onset of toothache. Luckily I had my emergency dental toolkit with me, so I told everyone to step back, while I performed an emergency pulpectomy right there on the table at the restaurant!!!

Sorry jmp20, I simply couldn't resist.

On a serious note: as a dentist you can contribute in a very positive way to the wellbeing of your patients. Creating a new, beautiful smile for a patient can work wonders with their confidence. Most people actually consider their dental health very important and are thankful to those who help them preserve it.

But you won't save many lives. However, that's actually also the case with MDs. Only few MDs are in the "live saving" business. Most are in the "quality of life" and "life prolonging" business.
 
Keep in mind that while you are set on surgery now, things DO change. I've know quite a few people that dreamed of being surgeons their entire life. They ate, drank, and slept surgery. They got into it and HATED it. They realized they liked other fields more. Having surgeries and watching surgeries is a far cry from being in the surgical field for a career. The training is long and hard and while you are limited to that 80 hour work week, you still need to learn in that off time. I respect dentists, and if I KNEW I could get omfs then I would shoot for it, but I know I'd be miserable in general dentistry, so I never entertained the idea past that. The variety of surgery available to the md/do is much larger than dentistry. You have ortho, uro, general surgery and all of its fellowships which includes CT, vascular, breast, colorectal, plastics, pediatric, etc., neurosurgery and I'm sure I'm leaving others off. In addition, there are fields that are very procedure based but may not involve you being in the OR all day. (Think any interventional speciality, GI, yada yada yada) I very much like to work with my hands, which I am assuming you do too. That being said, people change their minds in the clinical years and it happens quite often. Once you crawl up in the years the idea of 70+ hour work weeks begins to seem less appealing for many people. If you like surgery, another option to consider is podiatry. Go read about it and check out some of the surgeries on youtube. It is a great field. It might not have the income of a guy pulling wizzies all day, but it does have a nice lifestyle with a broad spectrum of medicine.

I feel we are probably the same kind of person. What you have to do is ask yourself which you will be happiest with if you DO NOT get surgery. It isn't being a negative thing, but weirder things have happened. I personally like the broad spectrum outside of the mouth area of medicine, although DREs and gyno stuff is not very appealing. This isn't about which field is better, it is about what interests you and makes you happy. There is a degree of selfishness that goes into this decision. The saving lives thing is kind of played up a bit. All fields are needed and are valuable for the purpose they serve. I've seen guys come into the ER who just assumed the doc could rip out his tooth and make it all better. He was heartbroken when we told him he'd have to go to a dentist, which he couldn't afford. We don't have free clinics in that town either...All we could do was shoot him up with a little local, contact a dentist that tends to do some probono type stuff and send him on his way. There are few things worse than agonizing tooth pain. In the worst case it can put the person down for the count, resulting in missed worked, migraines, weight loss, and other horrible things. The guy that fixes that will be just as appreciated,if not more, than the guy that fixes a hernia or helps manage a patient's diabetes.

On another note, you will meet quite a few disgruntled doctors lately. There have been huge reimbursement cuts across the boards and there is this general public perception that doctors all make millions of dollars, so a 10 or 15% pay cut doesn't really outrage them like it does the doctors. Not to mention the hoops one must jump through. The old guard tend to be the most bitter, our generation doesn't know any better. There will come a tipping point with this stuff, and I feel it is getting close. It'll be similar to germany where a large group of doctors will say "enough" and start fighting for their rights. We spend far too much of our young life to work 60+ hours and make what is becoming common. One is paid handsomely, but it isn't THAT handsome for the hours one invests. I have friends in other fields that get paid MUCH better for the hours they invest. If they invested 60-80 hours a week would easily make as much if not more than a large chunk of physicians. Hell, I find 9 to 5 kind of boring though. 😛
 
Sorry jmp20, I simply couldn't resist.


lol I expected a reply like this. I totally get that, point taken.
 
I respect dentists, and if I KNEW I could get omfs then I would shoot for it, but I know I'd be miserable in general dentistry, so I never entertained the idea past that. The variety of surgery available to the md/do is much larger than dentistry.

Even if you go to medical school.. as I've mentioned before.. the option of doing an OMFS residency combined with a dental degree is not entirely out of the question. So if you do med first, this may still be an option if you're still interested in Maxfacs later on.

Basically, don't go to dental school unless you think you would be happy being a general dentist.

So if you are unsure, I would suggest you only apply to medical school.

I had a choice in the beginning ...and I realised early on that if I could be either a general physician or a general dentist; I would much rather be a general dentist. So I never applied to medical school.

Only now am I completing a medical degree but solely for the purposes of practicing as a Maxillofacial surgeon. 👍
 
Even if you go to medical school.. as I've mentioned before.. the option of doing an OMFS residency combined with a dental degree is not entirely out of the question. So if you do med first, this may still be an option if you're still interested in Maxfacs later on.

Basically, don't go to dental school unless you think you would be happy being a general dentist.

So if you are unsure, I would suggest you only apply to medical school.

I had a choice in the beginning ...and I realised early on that if I could be either a general physician or a general dentist; I would much rather be a general dentist. So I never applied to medical school.

Only now am I completing a medical degree but solely for the purposes of practicing as a Maxillofacial surgeon. 👍

And that is the way it should be. You just have to go with what you know you could be content with. I kind of wish dentistry interested me more, because many of the aspects are quite nice!
 
thank you all. It's a shame something so cool and amazing like surgery is so time consuming. Why is it like this? Is the there a shortage of doctor's or do you really need to work over 80 hours a week for 5 years to learn it?
 
I am sure you could just learn it all in a weekend CE course, I mean, how hard can it be to extract a few teeth or repair a cleft palate? 😛
 
I am sure you could just learn it all in a weekend CE course, I mean, how hard can it be to extract a few teeth or repair a cleft palate? 😛


Obviously it would require plenty of experience, but 90-100+ hours per week! Really?!
 
Obviously it would require plenty of experience, but 90-100+ hours per week! Really?!

Do you want your surgeon to be someone who just dabbles in surgery as a hobby on weekends, or someone who eats/sleeps/****s surgery all the time?
 
well certainly something more reasonable like 60 hours a week could still be considered eating sleeping and ****ting surgery. Thats 10 hours a day including one on the weekend! Besides studies show that both cognition and hand coordination go down the drain when one under such conditions. would you want a sleep deprived and exhausted surgeon cutting you?! i'm just curious why it is so extreme?
 
well certainly something more reasonable like 60 hours a week could still be considered eating sleeping and ****ting surgery. Thats 10 hours a day including one on the weekend! Besides studies show that both cognition and hand coordination go down the drain when one under such conditions. would you want a sleep deprived and exhausted surgeon cutting you?! i'm just curious why it is so extreme?

60 hours a week is definately less than adequate, unless you want to double the length of your training from 4 to 8 years. About 80-110 is normal for OMFS in my observation, although there's lots of variability....there are plenty of country-club programs with much better hours. Your training should be more rigorous than anything you will encounter when you're done so you're prepared for anything. You learn to adapt to working when tired, it's not that big of a deal. When it's time to operate, it's time to operate...no matter what time it is. That's why this is a career and not just a job. Otherwise consider perio.
 
fair enough. Don't get me wrong, im not looking to cut corners, and I certainly am not afraid of pushing myself. If thats truely what it takes, bring it on! In fact, i really enjoy the constant commotion of a hospital setting. There's always something exciting happening in the ER. Which is mostly why i am afarid of chosing dentistry... i don't want to get bored! On this very forum, you here OMFS talk about how they lost interesrt in GP. What can people say to attest the excitement of a career in GP?
 
fair enough. I'm really not afraid of being tired; in fact, i really enjoy the constant commotion of a hospital setting. There's always something exciting happening in the ER. Which is mostly why i am afarid of chosing dentistry... i don't want to get bored! On this very forum, you here OMFS talk about how they lost interesrt in GP. What can people say to attest the excitement of a career in GP?

If you're interested in surgery and in plastics, you should look into a career in periodontal plastic surgery.
 
fair enough. Don't get me wrong, im not looking to cut corners, and I certainly am not afraid of pushing myself. If thats truely what it takes, bring it on! In fact, i really enjoy the constant commotion of a hospital setting. There's always something exciting happening in the ER. Which is mostly why i am afarid of chosing dentistry... i don't want to get bored! On this very forum, you here OMFS talk about how they lost interesrt in GP. What can people say to attest the excitement of a career in GP?

To each their own. Most of my classmates LOVED General Dentistry and were very excited to enter careers as GP's. There is a lot to offer with modern-day general dentistry...

preventive care, cosmetic/elective dentistry and full-mouth rehabilitations, "simple implantology" rotary endodontics, new technologies (surgical microscopes, lasers for diagnosis, soft/hard-tissue lasers, CAD-CAM fabrication of prosthetics, intraoral cameras, digital radiography, Cone-Beam CT Scanners, Invisalign, etc).

There really isn't any reason to be "bored of being a GP" because you have so much variety available at your finger-tips.

But there are those of us who want to specialize for different reasons. I would say that most of us who went into OMFS didn't do it because we totally and absolutely despized being GP's... but we saw "the bigger picture" and felt that it was the right mix/lifestyle for us. There are some of us that just wouldn't be as happy seating 8 porcelain veneers (for a nice fee of $8-10K) and instead would rather be elbow deep in blood treating a patient with pan-facial fractures (for $1-2K reimbursement if we are lucky).

No amount of information you read can ever substitute for experience. Spend as much time shadowing/following doctors in any of the medical/dental fields you feel you would be interested in. Shadow multiple doctors in the same field/specialty... because everybody practices differently and has different types of offices/staff/patients etc... Learn what is good and bad about each area you investigate.

Use those experiences as your stepping-stool to make the decision to apply to Medicine or Dentistry. Then KEEP AN OPEN MIND when you get to Medical or Dental School and pursue the specialty that you feel you will enjoy the most. You may be surprised what you decide to do in the end... Keep your options open. Circumstances and things change in your life and you need to be flexible.
 
Good thread guys. Just thought I'd weigh-in. I'm externing and applying to OMS programs this year. I have been suprised at how interesting most of what I've learned in dental school has been, and I'm fairly confident I could be content working as a GP (with a niche in implants, grafting, pre-prosthetic procedures, etc). It doesn't have to be disdain for general dentistry that drives you to a surgical specialty; instead, I'm SURE I'll be the MOST stoked to practice OMS. If I find all those doors closed to me, being a well-trained GP still lets me do a lot of cool stuff-- after a 1-2 year GPR, etc. It's hard to go too wrong going to dental school, if you wouldn't hate being a GP, and if you can get in 😉
 
Even if you go to medical school.. as I've mentioned before.. the option of doing an OMFS residency combined with a dental degree is not entirely out of the question. So if you do med first, this may still be an option if you're still interested in Maxfacs later on.

Basically, don't go to dental school unless you think you would be happy being a general dentist.

So if you are unsure, I would suggest you only apply to medical school.

I had a choice in the beginning ...and I realised early on that if I could be either a general physician or a general dentist; I would much rather be a general dentist. So I never applied to medical school.

Only now am I completing a medical degree but solely for the purposes of practicing as a Maxillofacial surgeon. 👍

I couldn't agree more. If you cannot see yourself being happy as a dentist first (regardless of what specialty you choose), then I would apply to med school. Put the time into learning about dentistry (shadowing) and see if that is what does it for you. I had a similar predicament (med vs. dent) when I was getting ready to graduate and I am glad to say that I made the right choice for myself. Just my thoughts and best of luck...
 
Toofache32, what is goin on with your profile pic?! haha....every time i see it.
 
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