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Those tuition and living expense numbers are ridiculously high (unless you go to Tufts). And you can do the compound interest calculation.say the average MD student has to borrow 70k per year for tuition, and say they add on 30 k per year living expense. so after 4 years, 400 k of debt. say they will add 100k of interest to that debt, so they are at -500 k when entering residency...
say the average MD student has to borrow 70k per year for tuition, and say they add on 30 k per year living expense. so after 4 years, 400 k of debt. say they will add 100k of interest to that debt, so they are at -500 k when entering residency.
say the average MDPHD gets a stipend of 25 k. at the end of 7-8 years they enter residency at +175 to +200k.
So, the real difference is that MDs finish with a -300k balance at the bank and MD/PhDs with a 0 balance. MDs have 4 additional years during which they can offset that difference at their peak salary. Anything that they make over the 25k that we were making as PhD students goes toward that difference
Intellectually, it may FEEL much worse to have -300k in loans but the time more than offsets any pure financial benefits of the MD/PhD program. If any fool out there isn't truly interested in MD/PhD probrams but thinks that it would be worth it to get your med school paid for, let me clear that one up for you: IT'S NOT WORTH IT.
The real financial benfit of an MD/PhD program is that you can do something that you love for 8 years while making a modest salary without having to worry about accumulating debt that will affect your choice of future career.
The real financial benfit of an MD/PhD program is that you can do something that you love for 8 years while making a modest salary without having to worry about accumulating debt that will affect your choice of future career.
Total loan amounts at the end of 4 years can reach the 200-300s but I've never heard of 500k in loans. So, at the end of your MD you have 200-300k in loans.
Don't forget the 6.8% interest rate! Also remember that only $85,00/year is interest free while you are in school. 4 years (med school)+(4-6 years residency) along with that 6.8% interest can almost double a student loan-->think $500K--$600K total expenses instead of $200-$300K.
$85,000 != $8,500. If you can get $85k subsidized per year you have no need to worry about interest, as it doesn't accrue during medical school and residency. You'd also be making nice money off of throwing most of that into a CD and not touching it until after you finish your training.
Getting paid for 8 years of learning cool stuff, after which you have a plethora of options available to you and the complete financial freedom to choose between them, is the bee's knees.
but isn't that exactly the financial benefits of mdphd? Counting how much money you'll make when u retire seems rather silly when your living standards post mdphd is often better than post mdonly. And u might be able to afford a family. This program is designed such that u don't need to worry too much about money.
I don't really think that md-only graduates have significantly different living standards than MD/PhD graduates. And I'm not talking about how much money you have when you retire. I'm talking about how much money you'll have at say, age 45. This is when you'll want a nice house, nice car, and send your kids to a nice school. By this time, most MDs could have paid off their loans with their 13 years of attending/PP salaries. MD/PhDs will likely have had 9 years or so of attending level salary.
What a rational post. I completely agree....Intellectually, it may FEEL much worse to have -300k in loans but the time more than offsets any pure financial benefits of the MD/PhD program. If any fool out there isn't truly interested in MD/PhD probrams but thinks that it would be worth it to get your med school paid for, let me clear that one up for you: IT'S NOT WORTH IT.
The real financial benfit of an MD/PhD program is that you can do something that you love for 8 years while making a modest salary without having to worry about accumulating debt that will affect your choice of future career.
No - you're going to get 40k-60k/yr as a resident. The MD/PhD will still be in school at that time (i.e. MD will be on resident salary when the MD/PhD is still on 25k-30k student stipend). Even when a MD/PhD becomes a resident, they'll still be on the same resident salary as their MD colleagues of the same PGY.but isn't that exactly the financial benefits of mdphd? Counting how much money you'll make when u retire seems rather silly when your living standards post mdphd is often better than post mdonly. And u might be able to afford a family. This program is designed such that u don't need to worry too much about money.
Again, 450k is way out in the high end of debt.Does 125K-175K feel very different than 225K-450K when it comes to standard of living? How different are they?
No, it doesn't all all work. You should NEVER do the MD/PhD for the money.
1. Ultimately it doesn't really pay out. Assuming four additional years of training means you will be 4 years older before making a real paycheck. Even if you have to pay for med school and have loans, you pay them off slowly over time. You won't care as much about paying them off while earning 6 figures. That means you will have a comfortable, non-student lifestyle at least 4 years earlier. That is the most tangible financial difference. You can play with the numbers all you want, but this is probably the bottom line.
2. With the PhD you will have to do a LOT OF HARD WORK. If your heart is not in it, you will suffer A LOT trying to complete it.
3. Career outcomes are typically different in the two pathways. While you have a lot of options as an MD/PhD, your standard, physician-scientist outcome is not on the same payscale as a private practice DOC. It's really apples and oranges. Let me give you a personal example- albeit anecdotal. I am doing s short-track residency after my 8 yr MD/PhD. I am finishing my second year of residency, with no debt. I was even able to save a little money, but I have at least 2 more years before I start earning asst. Prof. money. I may have to be an instructor first. 2 weekends ago I went to a med school friend's wedding. He's finished residency and working in rad onc PP earning 400K/yr. Another friend is working his butt off in derm, earning 1.2 mil/yr 2 years out of residency. Now you tell me, if it was only about the money, how would I have come out ahead in this deal? My rad onc friend just bought a mercedes C55 because he felt like it, and my derm friend- he could have a Ferrari if he wanted. My car is 8 yrs. old!
4. The MD/PhD is not as helpful landing a competitive specialty as getting AOA and good step I scores. Why spend 4 years on a PhD when you can just study harder for a damned test? Furthermore, as Neruonix frequently points out, if may not even help at all in some cases or be detrimental (i.e., Rads at Penn). And none of this helps AT ALL in the end when you are trying to land a job. You want a job in a pseudo-rural derm practice where you can earn 1.2 MIL working 70 hrs/wk? You think the partners care how many JBC papers you published? They don't- they'll think your an idiot for wasting your time, and instead hire your cocky colleague who's more fun at parties. THem's the breaks.
Bottom line is don't do the PhD unless you love science, and think the idea of biopsying rashes and handing out topical steroids to countless individuals sounds like hell.
1.2 million in derm two years out of residency, are you for real? I admire the guy for working hard but it is absolutely insane that our system facilitates people making that much money in derm. Unless he is treating Stevens-Johnson reactions all day long or something.
1.2 million in derm two years out of residency, are you for real? I admire the guy for working hard but it is absolutely insane that our system facilitates people making that much money in derm. Unless he is treating Stevens-Johnson reactions all day long or something.
No, it doesn't all all work. You should NEVER do the MD/PhD for the money.
1. Ultimately it doesn't really pay out. Assuming four additional years of training means you will be 4 years older before making a real paycheck. Even if you have to pay for med school and have loans, you pay them off slowly over time. You won't care as much about paying them off while earning 6 figures. That means you will have a comfortable, non-student lifestyle at least 4 years earlier. That is the most tangible financial difference. You can play with the numbers all you want, but this is probably the bottom line.
2. With the PhD you will have to do a LOT OF HARD WORK. If your heart is not in it, you will suffer A LOT trying to complete it.
3. Career outcomes are typically different in the two pathways. While you have a lot of options as an MD/PhD, your standard, physician-scientist outcome is not on the same payscale as a private practice DOC. It's really apples and oranges. Let me give you a personal example- albeit anecdotal. I am doing s short-track residency after my 8 yr MD/PhD. I am finishing my second year of residency, with no debt. I was even able to save a little money, but I have at least 2 more years before I start earning asst. Prof. money. I may have to be an instructor first. 2 weekends ago I went to a med school friend's wedding. He's finished residency and working in rad onc PP earning 400K/yr. Another friend is working his butt off in derm, earning 1.2 mil/yr 2 years out of residency. Now you tell me, if it was only about the money, how would I have come out ahead in this deal? My rad onc friend just bought a mercedes C55 because he felt like it, and my derm friend- he could have a Ferrari if he wanted. My car is 8 yrs. old!
4. The MD/PhD is not as helpful landing a competitive specialty as getting AOA and good step I scores. Why spend 4 years on a PhD when you can just study harder for a damned test? Furthermore, as Neruonix frequently points out, if may not even help at all in some cases or be detrimental (i.e., Rads at Penn). And none of this helps AT ALL in the end when you are trying to land a job. You want a job in a pseudo-rural derm practice where you can earn 1.2 MIL working 70 hrs/wk? You think the partners care how many JBC papers you published? They don't- they'll think your an idiot for wasting your time, and instead hire your cocky colleague who's more fun at parties. THem's the breaks.
Bottom line is don't do the PhD unless you love science, and think the idea of biopsying rashes and handing out topical steroids to countless individuals sounds like hell.
Does 125K-175K feel very different than 225K-450K when it comes to standard of living? How different are they?
Also depending on how you are paid as an MSTP, you may not even be eligible for Roth IRAs while you are in school.
yeah, i just found that out...damnit
This is basically the difference (in a major US city) between renting a small average apartment in an okay area versus owning a nice medium sized apartment in a nice area and having a car. Its a huge difference.
I have a sizable 1BR with 200sq ft deck growing all my little plants in the best part of Philly for $1050/mo including most utilities. My post-tax stipend is about $2000/mo. I think cost of living is being exaggerated by some posters.
Does 125K-175K feel very different than 225K-450K when it comes to standard of living? How different are
they?
I have a sizable 1BR with 200sq ft deck growing all my little plants in the best part of Philly for $1050/mo including most utilities. My post-tax stipend is about $2000/mo. I think cost of living is being exaggerated by some posters.
Do the MD/PhD's working as full-time medical practitioners experience more or less salary growth/employment opportunity compared to regular MD's?
not relevant to the thread, but after not having been on SDN for a while, I was impressed that a fairly controversial thread has not degenerated into an insult sling-fest by the tenth post. this is the antithesis to every other forum i frequent on the internets.
hats off to the future Doctor's of America.
For the same job, I don't see how a MD or a MD/PhD would make different money. As stated above, two guys in the same clinical job with the same years of clinical experience are going to make the same money. One of those guys might have a PhD, but employers (to my admittedly sparse knowledge) aren't generally going to look on it as benefit. Dependent on the field, they may question why you're going into PP. Promotion and income in PP is going to depend more on whether you have your own practice or are employed, whether you are a junior or senior partner, and how long you've spent at that level, and so on. PP "promotion" more to do with business savvy than degrees.Do the MD/PhD's working as full-time medical practitioners experience more or less salary growth/employment opportunity compared to regular MD's?
In general, though, a comfortable lifestyle is very achievable with $150k in pretty much any place in the US.
In a city like NY and San Francisco, 150k (before taxes) is really not much money. You need much more than that if you want to afford real state prices in these cities. Not to mention once you have a family with kids and factor in day care, nanny, education, etc. Keep in mind that at least 40% of your salary will go in taxes (highest bracket for federal, then state, city, fica, etc...).
People who don't think money is important uniformly share one characteristic: they have enough money. You may not have a tremendous income to have enough, but you aren't lacking, because people lacking money know how important it is.
People who don't think money is important uniformly share one characteristic: they have enough money. You may not have a tremendous income to have enough, but you aren't lacking, because people lacking money know how important it is.
But remember what Daniel Tosh says, "Money can't buy happiness but it can buy a waverunner."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l3z5EAykVE
Sorry, I can't say I look forward to MS3/4 or residency, as they appear to be awful experiences for many. So what's keeping me sane? Prayer for help in my work every day. ...The apocalypse being near and my career prospects not mattering very much anyway also helps me put grad school in perspective. However, I do NOT regret NOT taking on all that debt.
The apocalypse being near and my career prospects not mattering very much anyway also helps me put grad school in perspective. However, I do NOT regret NOT taking on all that debt.
5 different antibodies that can specifically bind to the protein of interest because the previous three I tested failed to do anything (even though the Nature/JI/JEM/etc. papers said they would). Journal club is a particularly awful thing.
Ran across this thread and thought "Does it really matter?" If you feel like you made less money than your MD-only counterpart, retire a couple years later. In a career that can span over 25 years, a few years pursuing a PhD won't matter much. The important thing is to do what makes you happy. There are examples of successful physicians quitting and going to law school. Life is a journey; you shouldn't wish your life away dreaming of the expensive mercedes you'll be driving 20 years from now.
No, it doesn't all all work. You should NEVER do the MD/PhD for the money.
1. Ultimately it doesn't really pay out. Assuming four additional years of training means you will be 4 years older before making a real paycheck. Even if you have to pay for med school and have loans, you pay them off slowly over time. You won't care as much about paying them off while earning 6 figures. That means you will have a comfortable, non-student lifestyle at least 4 years earlier. That is the most tangible financial difference. You can play with the numbers all you want, but this is probably the bottom line.
2. With the PhD you will have to do a LOT OF HARD WORK. If your heart is not in it, you will suffer A LOT trying to complete it.
3. Career outcomes are typically different in the two pathways. While you have a lot of options as an MD/PhD, your standard, physician-scientist outcome is not on the same payscale as a private practice DOC. It's really apples and oranges. Let me give you a personal example- albeit anecdotal. I am doing s short-track residency after my 8 yr MD/PhD. I am finishing my second year of residency, with no debt. I was even able to save a little money, but I have at least 2 more years before I start earning asst. Prof. money. I may have to be an instructor first. 2 weekends ago I went to a med school friend's wedding. He's finished residency and working in rad onc PP earning 400K/yr. Another friend is working his butt off in derm, earning 1.2 mil/yr 2 years out of residency. Now you tell me, if it was only about the money, how would I have come out ahead in this deal? My rad onc friend just bought a mercedes C55 because he felt like it, and my derm friend- he could have a Ferrari if he wanted. My car is 8 yrs. old!
4. The MD/PhD is not as helpful landing a competitive specialty as getting AOA and good step I scores. Why spend 4 years on a PhD when you can just study harder for a damned test? Furthermore, as Neruonix frequently points out, if may not even help at all in some cases or be detrimental (i.e., Rads at Penn). And none of this helps AT ALL in the end when you are trying to land a job. You want a job in a pseudo-rural derm practice where you can earn 1.2 MIL working 70 hrs/wk? You think the partners care how many JBC papers you published? They don't- they'll think your an idiot for wasting your time, and instead hire your cocky colleague who's more fun at parties. THem's the breaks.
Bottom line is don't do the PhD unless you love science, and think the idea of biopsying rashes and handing out topical steroids to countless individuals sounds like hell.