MD/Phd worth applying?

[petabread4]

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My goal is to get an MD/PhD, however at this point, I am really considering what would give me the best chance of getting into med school in the first place.

I have an extremely substantial research background, along with 200+ hours shadowing, and numerous volunteer work. Also have several leadership positions around campus and within my fraternity. MCAT of 35, but my real weakness is a low GPA (3.3c 3.0s).

I am wondering if MD/PhD adcoms would give some lenience for my GPA, and consider the other aspects of my application (especially the research), or would I simply have a better chance by just applying MD, and pursuing a PhD after I know that I'm accepted?

 

[ozzi22]

i don't really know, but i think MD/Phd is more competitive than the regular MD. so in that case your GPA is not up to par for regular MD, then why make it harder and go for the MD/phd then. not worth it my friend. however, you do have decent research experience which is a plus. you can apply to both the regular MD and just MD/phd.

 

[Tapepsi]

MD/PhD is definitely much more competitive. If it were me though I would still apply to the program. I know that for some schools if you get rejected from the MD/PhD program you will still be considered for the MD program (whereas others require you to apply to each program separately). With your extensive research background I'd say it's worth a shot, especially with a great MCAT.

Good luck! 👍

 

[petabread4]

I've definitely considered the schools that will drop you to MD if you get rejected for MD/Phd, my only concern about that was if it would put me behind in the application cycle, thus reducing my chance for acceptance? Maybe I'm just over thinking all of this...

 

[UnclePhil]

I don't think MD/PhD is inherently more competitive, it is for some and not for others. I had advisors recommending me to apply MD/PhD over MD only tracks when I was doing applications. Their reasoning was that I had a great research background, high stats, but extremely limited community service, volunteering and shadowing. I was basically told that I would be a very competitive applicant for most MD/PhD programs where my research and grades would gain the most focus from adcoms over my lack of service and clinical experience which would be a much bigger hole for MD only applications. I opted to go MD only because I couldn't fathom being in school for an additional 3-4 years just to get a PhD that I cared little about getting.

MD/PhD applicants do tend to have higher stats though, so if your GPA is on the low side, it may be tougher for you to go that route than MD only.

 

[aSagacious]

I've definitely considered the schools that will drop you to MD if you get rejected for MD/Phd, my only concern about that was if it would put me behind in the application cycle, thus reducing my chance for acceptance? Maybe I'm just over thinking all of this...

This is not a bad idea. Another consideration is to look for schools that evaluate MDs and MSTPs simultaneously (VCU is one example). This way you won't be put at a disadvantage by being thrown into the general applicant pool only after being rejected by the MSTP committee.

 

[Uisa]

Hmm... it can't hurt but then again most competitive MD/PhD students seem to have your experiences/stats with a better GPA. Once again, it doesn't hurt to apply but just don't expect too much from it.

Have you looked into MSTP programs?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

My goal is to get an MD/PhD, however at this point, I am really considering what would give me the best chance of getting into med school in the first place.

I have an extremely substantial research background, along with 200+ hours shadowing, and numerous volunteer work. Also have several leadership positions around campus and within my fraternity. MCAT of 35, but my real weakness is a low GPA (3.3c 3.0s).

I am wondering if MD/PhD adcoms would give some lenience for my GPA, and consider the other aspects of my application (especially the research), or would I simply have a better chance by just applying MD, and pursuing a PhD after I know that I'm accepted?

that's what usually counts most for md/phd. there's a separate forum for this (physician scientist) that would be of service to you

 

[vc7777]

The first question should not be whether you want to apply MD/PhD. Rather, the first question should be what type of career you want to have "at the end". You have mentioned your background in research. But you have not articulated your interest in a research-focused career.

Methinks, based on what you have written, you wish to gain entry into an MD program and are only trying to pursue the MD/PhD route because you hope it will get you there. Being MD/PhD and not wanting the lifestyle => recipe for miserable life. Buyer Beware.

 

[tn4596]

i think md/phD are way more competitive than md because most program give u free tuition and even stipend for your work.
i've look around before and some1 state that it took about 7-10 years to complete that program, that is horrid. md/phd is usually more suited for people who wanna pursuit research as a career that being said there are also people who went into residency afterward.

 

[StephBee]

What do you want to do after med school?
That is the ultimate question. Is it something you can do without a PhD? Clinical research for example. MD/PhDs are *extremely* competative. Figure, the average incoming medical school class is around 100. The average MD/PhD class? Less than 10.
As someone who was in the reverse situation (High gpa, low mcat), I applied only to MD/PhD programs that consider you for MD if rejected for the dual program. My net result: 0 interviews for those programs and only 1 school taht rejected me MSTP interviewed me for MD and I was waitlisted. At the end, I didn't get in anywhere and am now a reapplicant because of it.
If you go over to the MD/PhD forum, you'll see a lot of those in these programs complaining moreso than speaking their praise. They're hard. And if you can do what you want to do with just one of the two degrees, you should explore that avenue first.

 

[Tapepsi]

I don't think MD/PhD is inherently more competitive, it is for some and not for others.

MD/PhD applicants do tend to have higher stats though, so if your GPA is on the low side, it may be tougher for you to go that route than MD only.

Yes it is much more competitive, and the higher stats for both GPA and MCAT scores reflect that.

 

[deleted357625]

You can always do research without the joint degree.

 

[UnclePhil]

Yes it is much more competitive, and the higher stats for both GPA and MCAT scores reflect that.

High stats are not the only things that make for a competitive applicant. I'm basing what I said on what I was told by an adcom last year. If someone has done killer research but is short on volunteering/community service/shadowing/etc. he/she may have a better shot at a lot of MD/PhD programs than some MD programs.

 

[Lil Mick]

Sending you a PM as an MD/PhD student who has some experience with guiding applicants 🙂

 

[RogueUnicorn]

What do you want to do after med school?
That is the ultimate question. Is it something you can do without a PhD? Clinical research for example. MD/PhDs are *extremely* competative. Figure, the average incoming medical school class is around 100. The average MD/PhD class? Less than 10.
As someone who was in the reverse situation (High gpa, low mcat), I applied only to MD/PhD programs that consider you for MD if rejected for the dual program. My net result: 0 interviews for those programs and only 1 school taht rejected me MSTP interviewed me for MD and I was waitlisted. At the end, I didn't get in anywhere and am now a reapplicant because of it.
If you go over to the MD/PhD forum, you'll see a lot of those in these programs complaining moreso than speaking their praise. They're hard. And if you can do what you want to do with just one of the two degrees, you should explore that avenue first.

there are also a lot fewer applicants to md/phd programs. by and large, the most important factor in md/phd admissions is the quality of your research.

 

[mp2100]

How long is the typical road to an MD/PhD?

 

[Dark Templar]

there are also a lot fewer applicants to md/phd programs. by and large, the most important factor in md/phd admissions is the quality of your research.

OP, this is all you really need to know. Although your GPA may (as in maybe maybe not) prove to be a barrier to entry for the top MD/PhD programs I still encourage you to apply and give it a shot if you can afford to apply to a few extra schools. If not, apply broadly and early. From what I've seen contrary to what others have said in this thread, MD/PhD programs seem to weigh research more heavily and may be more forgiving of a lower GPA if your research potential is there.

 

[aSagacious]

How long is the typical road to an MD/PhD?

Depends. Strictly speaking the degree goes like this:
M1, M2, PhD1, PhD2, PhD3, M3, M4

However, MANY students do residencies (3-5 years) and fellowships (1-3 years) after completing the degree. Additionally, some take longer than 3 years to complete the research portion of their pre-clinical years.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Depends. Strictly speaking the degree goes like this:
M1, M2, PhD1, PhD2, PhD3, M3, M4

However, MANY students do residencies (3-5 years) and fellowships (1-3 years) after completing the degree. Additionally, some take longer than 3 years to complete the research portion of their pre-clinical years.

i'd say most

 

[Lil Mick]

The average time is about 8.5 years nationally. This depends on a lot of factors out of your control in the lab. If you design your projects well and get lucky with good data, you can finish in 3; most people end up taking 4 or 5 years to finish the PhD part (or longer if they have a good grant or want to go straight into a faculty position after graduation).

As for gpa/MCAT, top programs may have an issue with these, but research is by far the most important part of the application. PM me if you have more questions 🙂

 

[Truzzi]

Seven years + internship/residency? Ouch. What are the ostensible advantages to receiving both degrees?

 

[Medicine4Bruhs]

Seven years + internship/residency? Ouch. What are the ostensible advantages to receiving both degrees?

It is free.

 

[aSagacious]

Seven years + internship/residency? Ouch. What are the ostensible advantages to receiving both degrees?

As MFB said, yes it is free (which takes some of the sting off of the extra time commitment).

There are also a few other important considerations:
- MDs never learn how to go about acquiring grant money in the way that PhDs do.
- Your formal research training in an MSTP (4-5 years) will be much more thorough than an equivalent fellowship (1-2 years).
- This is a pseudo-fact (mostly my opinion): academia is all about prestige. MSTP is very prestigious due to its selectivity in admissions and held in high regard by many schools. This would IMO make you more marketable than a pure-MD looking for the same academic faculty position.
- You will hear the occasional rumor that NIH is more willing to fund an MD/PhD or a PhD over an MD. I think Neuronix does a decent job of dispelling this rumor.

I challenge you to back up this statement with data. See:

JAMA -- The Physician-Scientist Career Pipeline in 2005: Build It, and They Will Come
Ley and Rosenberg
September 21, 2005 Vol 294 No 11

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/294/11/1343/JOC50107F3

Figure 3 shows very little to no difference in funding rates for grants for MDs and MD/PhDs.

Similarly,

JAMA -- NIH Peer Review of Grant Applications for Clinical Research
Kotchen et al
February 18, 2004 Vol 291 No 7

In my opinion/experience, the important factors are:

An MD who has startup funding and research experience will be just as successful as an MD/PhD. The MD will just have to get it post-residency, which includes all the PI mentoring and publications and such. The MD/PhD will have to do this as well! Though one hopes not as much time would have to be spent in this endeavor post-residency. However, the fellows assure me nobody cares how many publications you got during your PhD or what you did for your PhD when you go to look for faculty spots. It's what have you done for me lately. i.e. Get out of your PhD as quickly as possible and move on, you'll have to invest plenty more time later anyway. The MD/PhD will still have to put in a productive fellowship/post-doc to get a research position.

As for hospital hiring, it IS all about money. If you can get grants, they will hire you. If you are an MD and bring in clinical revenue, you will get hired. It's quite simple. Until someone shows us that MD/PhDs are more successful at getting grants (everything I've read has indicated they aren't), MD and MD/PhD will be equivalent at finding a job. It's not the letters behind your name folks...

 

[Truzzi]

Wait, you're telling me that the MD portion is free as well? I always knew the PhD part was, but the rest is news to me.

Well, I guess I have a new life goal.

 

[aSagacious]

Wait, you're telling me that the MD portion is free as well? I always knew the PhD part was, but the rest is news to me.

Well, I guess I have a new life goal.

Not only are both degrees free but you are also provided a (modest) stipend throughout the program to cover living expenses, etc. However anyone that has ever gone through the program will tell you DO NOT do an MD/PhD for any of the following reasons:
- It will make it easier to get into med school
- It's free
- It will make you more competitive for residency

...otherwise you'll be in for a long, miserable road.

 

[NickNaylor]

It is free.

You would make more than enough money as a MD to significantly pay down your debt using the salary you wouldn't have received if you spent time getting a PhD. Going MSTP isn't a smart financial decision, and going because it's "free" is definitely unwise.

 

[EsseQuamVideri]

Not only are both degrees free but you are also provided a (modest) stipend throughout the program to cover living expenses, etc. However anyone that has ever gone through the program will tell you DO NOT do an MD/PhD for any of the following reasons:
- It will make it easier to get into med school
- It's free
- It will make you more competitive for residency

...otherwise you'll be in for a long, miserable road.

OP, you into masochism? 😀 If not, MD/Ph.D probably isn't your thing. Par contre, if it is then go for it 110% Beware though, it's very evident who's applying for the right reasons. If you have doubts, they'll be evident. Don't waste the money/time/stress if you aren't sure.

 

[Truzzi]

Not only are both degrees free but you are also provided a (modest) stipend throughout the program to cover living expenses, etc. However anyone that has ever gone through the program will tell you DO NOT do an MD/PhD for any of the following reasons:
- It will make it easier to get into med school
- It's free
- It will make you more competitive for residency

...otherwise you'll be in for a long, miserable road.

I understand why they would say this, but they are some of the greatest advantages to come with the program. What would you say should be the number one reason to consider an MD/PhD? A heavy focus on research? Prestige?

I ask because I've always operated under the terms that you do not need a PhD to be a good researcher, and that you should never do something for prestige alone.

 

[aSagacious]

What would you say should be the number one reason to consider an MD/PhD? A heavy focus on research? Prestige?

If you want to be the PI on some clinical research projects.

I ask because I've always operated under the terms that you do not need a PhD to be a good researcher, and that you should never do something for prestige alone.

To the first bolded text, I would beg to differ... but it depends if you want to run the lab as PI or simply act as a collaborator (where you probably wouldn't need the PhD).
To the second bolded text, I agree wholeheartedly.