MD/PhD's doing Post-Docs, and Teaching Experience

[relentless11]

Just curious if its common for MD/PhDs to do post-docs after graduating in lieu of becoming a professor?

On a side note, just curious how much teaching experience do MSTPs get? My PhD program does not have a TA requirement, however I do enjoy teaching therefore may seek a TA position in the future. Does anyone have any recommendations on what I should look for in a TA position? Should I find a TA position where i teach the discussion sections or just have office hours for students? Either environment is fine with me, but just wanted to see if anyone had some experiences to share.

Thanks!

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[Circumflex]

Just curious if its common for MD/PhDs to do post-docs after graduating in lieu of becoming a professor?

On a side note, just curious how much teaching experience do MSTPs get? My PhD program does not have a TA requirement, however I do enjoy teaching therefore may seek a TA position in the future. Does anyone have any recommendations on what I should look for in a TA position? Should I find a TA position where i teach the discussion sections or just have office hours for students? Either environment is fine with me, but just wanted to see if anyone had some experiences to share.

Thanks!

I'm not sure what you mean by professor. Anyone with an academic appointment (working at a medical school) is considered a professor (even clinicians). The only way you wouldn't be considered a professor is if you went into industry or private practice.

I think that it is common for MD/PhDs to obtain post-doc training, but it is usually in the context of residency and fellowship training. For instance, some fellowships include a year of research and there are fast-track residencies that incorporate a 2-3 year post-doc period at the end. I think it is uncommon for MD/PhDs to only do a post-doc and not residency training, but it does happen.

As for the TA questions, I had to TA, but I went to a non-MSTP MD/PhD program. Most MSTP students (I think) do not have to TA because it takes so much time away from research. I had to TA 3 semesters. Each semester was shared by 2 grad students, so we split up the lectures and one of us had to attend every lecture and be available for questions. We were required to give 4 hours of lecture each semester on the topic of our choice. I lucked out and was assigned to Nursing Biochemistry (as opposed to dental or allied health) for all 3 semesters.

I enjoyed TAing, but it took a lot of time away from my research. It fragments your day. Your goal should be to do as much research as possible to get yourself out. Be thankful - don't go looking for trouble. Also, you don't get to decide how you TA - the rules are established. I don't know how or where you would find a TA position if your school doesn't have TAs.

 

[strangeglove]

TAing is an excellent idea if you are interested in more than clinical teaching and mentoring graduate students in the lab in your future. I would say that leading discussion sections is the best experience, as this is akin to giving a lecture. Only doing office hours is more like being a tutor. I would recommend TAing a subject that is relevant to your work but that you don't yet know very well. In order to be ahead of your brightest student you will need to really master the subject matter and this is a much more effective way of learning something than simply taking a class. I agree that TAing is time consuming and you will get little work done in the lab.

 

[QofQuimica]

Just curious if its common for MD/PhDs to do post-docs after graduating in lieu of becoming a professor?

On a side note, just curious how much teaching experience do MSTPs get? My PhD program does not have a TA requirement, however I do enjoy teaching therefore may seek a TA position in the future. Does anyone have any recommendations on what I should look for in a TA position? Should I find a TA position where i teach the discussion sections or just have office hours for students? Either environment is fine with me, but just wanted to see if anyone had some experiences to share.

Thanks!

It's interesting that you posted this; I've actually been thinking about what I want to do after I graduate. I've pretty much decided to do a residency at some point, because it really doesn't make sense to go through all this trouble of getting an MD and then not get licensed to use it. But I'm considering doing a year-long post doc in between med school and residency so that I can finish some research that I've been doing during med school. Any of you guys have experience or know of any MD/PhDs who did what I'm contemplating?

 

[Circumflex]

It's interesting that you posted this; I've actually been thinking about what I want to do after I graduate. I've pretty much decided to do a residency at some point, because it really doesn't make sense to go through all this trouble of getting an MD and then not get licensed to use it. But I'm considering doing a year-long post doc in between med school and residency so that I can finish some research that I've been doing during med school. Any of you guys have experience or know of any MD/PhDs who did what I'm contemplating?

I don't know of anyone who has done that, but I would think that it would be a mistake for several reasons.
1. If you are going into a patient-care residency, the year off could make it harder to get back into the swing of things. You learn a lot in 4th year about patient management.

2. Getting a Dean's letter and the whole application process will be logistically more difficult.

3. When applying for a residency, I don't know how good of a reason that would be for why you didn't apply straight out of med school.

It might not be a big deal to do, but these are the biggest factors to consider that I could think of.

 

[QofQuimica]

I don't know of anyone who has done that, but I would think that it would be a mistake for several reasons.
1. If you are going into a patient-care residency, the year off could make it harder to get back into the swing of things. You learn a lot in 4th year about patient management.

2. Getting a Dean's letter and the whole application process will be logistically more difficult.

3. When applying for a residency, I don't know how good of a reason that would be for why you didn't apply straight out of med school.

It might not be a big deal to do, but these are the biggest factors to consider that I could think of.

Hmm. So probably it would be better to take a research year before I graduate if I'm going to do it. That way I could still spend an afternoon per week in clinic too.

 

[Ultra7]

Q-
How much time do you need to finish up? There is typically a LOT of free time fourth year, and I think most schools will let you do a few months of research electives where you could get back in lab.
I agree with previous poster that it might be tough applying for residency without your dean's office to help. If you are applying to a less competitive specialty that likes MD/PhDs (medicine, pathology), I doubt it would matter. You'd be golden regardless. But if you're thinking derm, you'll need all the help you can get.

As far as teaching goes, at my MSTP we have to TA for one semester (so it is not unique to non-MSTP MD/PhD programs). It does take time away from lab, but it is not too bad. I wouldn't personally volunteer for more, but you can if you want to. There are other ways to get teaching experience that involve less time away from lab. You could tutor first or second year med students. Or you could teach at a test prep course like Princeton Review or Kaplan.

 

[relentless11]

I'm not sure what you mean by professor. Anyone with an academic appointment (working at a medical school) is considered a professor (even clinicians).

Yes, so would a clinician-scientist have to do a post-doc too? As Q up there pointed out, the timing may be a bit awkward. I agree with the assessment that one should go straight from the 4th year into residency, however is there time during year 4 to do a post-doc, or would one have enough motivation after residency to do a post-doc? How do clinician-scientists do it? My PI who is an MD/PhD never mentioned any post-doc and now he's a full professor at a UC med school. Confusing!!

I enjoyed TAing, but it took a lot of time away from my research. It fragments your day. Your goal should be to do as much research as possible to get yourself out. Be thankful - don't go looking for trouble. Also, you don't get to decide how you TA - the rules are established. I don't know how or where you would find a TA position if your school doesn't have TAs.

Oh we do have TAs, my specific program just doesn't have a TA requirement given that most of our classes are from the med school. Not many TAs for med school classes ya know. My school does offer some TA positions here in there fore "intro to physiology for non-science majors". I may look into that since it may be less traumatic than other alternatives. However I believe I should do TAing given teaching experience is crucial in all aspects of being a professor or just as a clinician (or both!).

The prep course idea is also an option. Does anyone know how long post-docs typically last? I mean with all things research, I'm sure it varies, but is there a lower limit? A 4th year post-doc position would probably be ideal then since I'm realizing that my PhD training is still lacking and I have become interested in building off of my current research and what not. Anyway thanks for hte wonderful insights....boy this is going to be a long (but worthwile) trip.

 

[QofQuimica]

Q-
How much time do you need to finish up? There is typically a LOT of free time fourth year, and I think most schools will let you do a few months of research electives where you could get back in lab.
I agree with previous poster that it might be tough applying for residency without your dean's office to help. If you are applying to a less competitive specialty that likes MD/PhDs (medicine, pathology), I doubt it would matter. You'd be golden regardless. But if you're thinking derm, you'll need all the help you can get.

I'm really early on in the process, just finishing my first year now. I've been working on research part-time this past year though, and I plan to work full time this summer and part time some more next year. My school allows us to do a fifth year for research. They don't charge tuition for it and I could probably get funded (stipend for living expenses). I definitely don't want to do derm. Probably the most competitive specialty I'm considering is anesthesiology, or maybe emergency medicine. The others are less competitive (IM, psych, path).

relentless, I don't know how it works in biological sciences. But in chemistry, post docs typically last 1-2 years. A lot of people do two of them, so the total time is from 2-4 years. I don't think a few months is long enough to do a post doc; you won't have enough time probably to get one experimental paper out, let alone a few.

 

[Circumflex]

Does anyone know how long post-docs typically last? I mean with all things research, I'm sure it varies, but is there a lower limit? A 4th year post-doc position would probably be ideal then since I'm realizing that my PhD training is still lacking and I have become interested in building off of my current research and what not. Anyway thanks for hte wonderful insights....boy this is going to be a long (but worthwile) trip.

Typical post-docs can are usually 2-4 years. You will not have enough time in your 4th year of medical school to do a meaningful post-doc. You can do significant research, though. I spent a couple of months in the lab plus spare time during some light electives. At most schools, you have to do an acting internship, 1-2 medicine/ambulatory rotations, go on interviews, etc.

From what I have heard, most clinician-scientists began their research training (post-doc experience) in their residency or fellowship. It all depends on your background, your field of research (are you changing fields or is it the same as your PhD?), and how comfortable you are. Some fellowships may include 1-2 years of devoted research time. In other cases, you may be able to do some research on the side of your clinical duties, then spend an extra year or 2 doing a post-doc after the fellowship. In any case, you will need some devoted research time (formal) beyond your PhD training if you want to be a competitive academic scientist.

 

[Ultra7]

Q-
Anesthesia is a great choice for an MD/PhD. It is relatively easy to have one clinical day a week. Plus, on the interview trail this year, the MD/PhDs I met that were applying anesthesia seemed to have programs fighting over them; it sounded like even more of a buyer's market than path. I think there are relatively few anesthesiologists interested in basic science research, so if you are one of them, you can pretty much write your own ticket.
Definitely much different than derm

 

[QofQuimica]

Q-
Anesthesia is a great choice for an MD/PhD. It is relatively easy to have one clinical day a week. Plus, on the interview trail this year, the MD/PhDs I met that were applying anesthesia seemed to have programs fighting over them; it sounded like even more of a buyer's market than path. I think there are relatively few anesthesiologists interested in basic science research, so if you are one of them, you can pretty much write your own ticket.
Definitely much different than derm

Cool, thanks for letting me know. I'm going to be shadowing some anesthesiologists this summer and trying to figure out if it's something I want to pursue further. Where are you at in the process right now?

 

[Ultra7]

Q-
I am almost done--I just matched.

 

[greg12345]

There are different kinds of "professors" in clinical medicine. There are the plain professors (assistant, associate, full) who are usually big time basic scientists who bring in tons of research dollars and produce publications as regularly as the y move their bowels. Typically they have minimal clinical (i.e. patient care) responsibilities (anywhere from 5-10% of their time; in some cases none). Once you understand how the promotion/tenure process works in academic medicine, you realize it is almost impossible to make it to the level of full professor unless you are a big time researcher (there are other ways to do it, but big time research is by far the most common). Then there are the dreaded "clinical professor" designations (e.g. assistant clinical professor or assistant professor of clinical medicine, etc.). Basically you might as well wear a brown bag on your head all the time and you will be scorned by your research-oriented academic colleagues because, gasp, you actually enjoy taking care of patients and teaching students/residents. Plus, you have no RO1s so really, who knows why you continue living? This is commonly called the "clinical educator track". If they don't happen to be wearing a brown bag the particular day you meet one, you can tell them apart because usually they are the best attendings/preceptors one could ever ask for as a med student or resident.

 

[greg12345]

Forget about TA'ing in my opinion, it is a waste of time. You will have plenty of time to "hone" your teaching skills once you hit residency - basically every day you will have 1-2 med students invading your personal space constantly and hanging on your every word. Then, when you are an upper level resident, you will teach the interns. Want to polish that CV and get even more experience? Do a chief year. You can subject people to endless boring lectures day after day at morning report! Guess who teaches the residents/interns on subspecialty services? The fellows. Save the time in your graduate years for what you really need to accomplish - generating quality data, writing papers, and getting out fast. You can gain teaching experience at almost any stage in your training, but your opportunities for serious research training are limited to grad school and the research years of your fellowship (which can be as short as 1-2 years). I had to TA for one semester as part of my grad school department, it was fun but your productivity in the lab seriously drops.

 

[solitude]

In my experience this is simply not true. In a clinical department, even at top medical schools, most of the tenure-track professors see patients regularly, even most of the time (i.e. much more than 5-10%). Granted, they don't always do as much clinical stuff as clinical-track professors, but I don't think you are giving enough credit. Of course, there are some tenure-track professors in clinical departments that see no patients, and there are some clinical professors that also do research.

There are different kinds of "professors" in clinical medicine. There are the plain professors (assistant, associate, full) who are usually big time basic scientists who bring in tons of research dollars and produce publications as regularly as the y move their bowels. Typically they have minimal clinical (i.e. patient care) responsibilities (anywhere from 5-10% of their time; in some cases none). Once you understand how the promotion/tenure process works in academic medicine, you realize it is almost impossible to make it to the level of full professor unless you are a big time researcher (there are other ways to do it, but big time research is by far the most common). Then there are the dreaded "clinical professor" designations (e.g. assistant clinical professor or assistant professor of clinical medicine, etc.). Basically you might as well wear a brown bag on your head all the time and you will be scorned by your research-oriented academic colleagues because, gasp, you actually enjoy taking care of patients and teaching students/residents. Plus, you have no RO1s so really, who knows why you continue living? This is commonly called the "clinical educator track". If they don't happen to be wearing a brown bag the particular day you meet one, you can tell them apart because usually they are the best attendings/preceptors one could ever ask for as a med student or resident.

 

[relentless11]

Typical post-docs can are usually 2-4 years. You will not have enough time in your 4th year of medical school to do a meaningful post-doc. You can do significant research, though. I spent a couple of months in the lab plus spare time during some light electives. At most schools, you have to do an acting internship, 1-2 medicine/ambulatory rotations, go on interviews, etc.

From what I have heard, most clinician-scientists began their research training (post-doc experience) in their residency or fellowship. It all depends on your background, your field of research (are you changing fields or is it the same as your PhD?), and how comfortable you are. Some fellowships may include 1-2 years of devoted research time. In other cases, you may be able to do some research on the side of your clinical duties, then spend an extra year or 2 doing a post-doc after the fellowship. In any case, you will need some devoted research time (formal) beyond your PhD training if you want to be a competitive academic scientist.

Yea, thats what i've come to realize. As an undergrad, a PhD seemed to be the pinnacle of academia...boy was I naive..haha. So I guess I'll try to do something during residency/fellowship. My PhD is in pathology which would apply to almost any medical field. I know I don't want to be a pathologist though, so will probably seek additional training in other fields such as biomedical engineering which I also have training in. Goood times!!!

On a side note, does anyone know of any summer research internships for graduate students? I'm trying to get a little more training in when my thesis stuff slows down over the summers. Any thoughts?

 

[greg12345]

You are right and I am not giving enough credit. I will point out that people can and do obtain the rank of full professor (with no "clinical" designation attached) with minimal research b/c they are able to satisfy their "scholarly achievement" requirements for tenure/promotion in other ways, and are hence able to spend a lot of time seeing patients. You should also consider that at some institutions, some departments/divisions are very research heavy while other departments/divisions are not. No knock on Duke, but doesn't Duke have several IM divisions that do very minimal basic science research? I mean, cards is absolutely huge there but consider that you may be getting a skewed perspective. I don't go to Duke and this is all stuff I've heard through the grapevine, so take it with a grain of salt.

And what is your definition of "regularly" seeing patients? Most basic science attendings I know who are full professors AND maintain a very productive lab at my institution do at most 1/2 day of clinic a week plus maybe 2-4 weeks attending on an inpatient or consult service. That is about 10-15% clinical time from my simplistic calculations. I guess if attendings need more money they can always see more patients and spend more clinic time, but in my experience the ones with multiple grants and very productive labs are always looking for more protected research time rather than begging for the opportunity to listen to 3rd year med students butcher presentations.

 

[solitude]

yeah they are definitely some research-lite departments here at Duke, but it's still been my experience at Duke (and a few other academic institutions) that many tenure-track faculty see patients regularly and many don't have their own labs. I think we're on the same page, but there's been a miscommunication: the attendings that run their own labs don't see patients often, but I interpreted your post to assert that all tenure-track faculty don't see patients often, which is where we both disagree.

You are right and I am not giving enough credit. I will point out that people can and do obtain the rank of full professor (with no "clinical" designation attached) with minimal research b/c they are able to satisfy their "scholarly achievement" requirements for tenure/promotion in other ways, and are hence able to spend a lot of time seeing patients. You should also consider that at some institutions, some departments/divisions are very research heavy while other departments/divisions are not. No knock on Duke, but doesn't Duke have several IM divisions that do very minimal basic science research? I mean, cards is absolutely huge there but consider that you may be getting a skewed perspective. I don't go to Duke and this is all stuff I've heard through the grapevine, so take it with a grain of salt.

And what is your definition of "regularly" seeing patients? Most basic science attendings I know who are full professors AND maintain a very productive lab at my institution do at most 1/2 day of clinic a week plus maybe 2-4 weeks attending on an inpatient or consult service. That is about 10-15% clinical time from my simplistic calculations. I guess if attendings need more money they can always see more patients and spend more clinic time, but in my experience the ones with multiple grants and very productive labs are always looking for more protected research time rather than begging for the opportunity to listen to 3rd year med students butcher presentations.

 

[QofQuimica]

Q-
I am almost done--I just matched.

Congrats! Would you mind telling me what specialty (path?) and your research experience/interests?

 

[QofQuimica]

There are different kinds of "professors" in clinical medicine. There are the plain professors (assistant, associate, full) who are usually big time basic scientists who bring in tons of research dollars and produce publications as regularly as the y move their bowels. Typically they have minimal clinical (i.e. patient care) responsibilities (anywhere from 5-10% of their time; in some cases none). Once you understand how the promotion/tenure process works in academic medicine, you realize it is almost impossible to make it to the level of full professor unless you are a big time researcher (there are other ways to do it, but big time research is by far the most common). Then there are the dreaded "clinical professor" designations (e.g. assistant clinical professor or assistant professor of clinical medicine, etc.). Basically you might as well wear a brown bag on your head all the time and you will be scorned by your research-oriented academic colleagues because, gasp, you actually enjoy taking care of patients and teaching students/residents. Plus, you have no RO1s so really, who knows why you continue living? This is commonly called the "clinical educator track". If they don't happen to be wearing a brown bag the particular day you meet one, you can tell them apart because usually they are the best attendings/preceptors one could ever ask for as a med student or resident.

Cynical, but even I can see that there is some truth to it.