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MD salary

Discussion in 'Canada' started by SamJG, Apr 29, 2004.

  1. SamJG

    SamJG New Member

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    Does anone know what the starting salary is for a Canadian doctor? Also whats the maximum you can earn as I have seen a website that says doctors get $33,000? Is this correct?

    Best Wishes

    Sam
     
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  3. moo

    moo 1K Member
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    Even residents don't earn that little. If you are a resident you will start off making about 40k CAD. If you are a practicing doctor, depending on your specialty, you will pull in at least 90-100k CAD easily.
     
  4. kumar28

    kumar28 Senior Member
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    yeah,
    but your not taking home 90 to 100. The tax system there is about 50% therefore you will "Take home" about 50.
     
  5. mkmgal

    mkmgal Member
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    Dang! No wonder so many docs are fleeing South!! Are you for real about docs making so little money in Canada? I thought that was mainly the specialists that got the shaft. I'm currently attending a medical school in the states, and I'm thinking about practicing in Alberta, but hearing those stats is not extremely comforting. Is 90-100K Canadian the average for the country or for a specific province? Does anyone know what the average Alberta family practice doc makes?
     
  6. Trini

    Trini Member
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    The salary for a Specialist in a Hospital is around $250,000 - 300,000 annually, depends on if you want to be paid by salary or by fee. :D

    The figures I quoted is if you are being paid by salary. I'm in contact with a hospital in NB that are interested in hiring me and this is the salary they offered me.

    I don't know how/if the salary is different for Family Doctors.

    Trini
     
  7. aurab

    aurab Junior Member

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    The residents PGY1 starting in July 2004 will earn $44,236 per year in Ontario and it jumps close to $50,000 in second year. Check the web site:http://www.pairo.org/
     
  8. aurab

    aurab Junior Member

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    I forgot to mention that as a PGY1 resident in Ontario you can expect a biweekly cheque of slightly over $1200, assuming that you are a single taxpayer.
     
  9. Keberson

    Keberson Senior Member
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    aarg!!!!!!
     
  10. CanuckPAGirl

    CanuckPAGirl That girl needs therapy
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    Um.
    No.
     
  11. CanuckPAGirl

    CanuckPAGirl That girl needs therapy
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    Don't forget you do not get raped by malpractice in Canada like in the US.
     
  12. Doc Ivy

    Doc Ivy Miss Understood
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    Um.
    Yes.
     
  13. leviathan

    leviathan Drinking from the hydrant
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    I second that...not 100% on the accuracy of that post....but if anything, it's pretty damn close to 50% of your income. :(
    Still....if you are considering incomes, you have to remember everybody else in Canada is taxed like hell as well, so comparitively it is a comfortable salary.
     
  14. Blake

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    Only comfortable ? Now come on, most doctors are very well paid...
     
  15. leviathan

    leviathan Drinking from the hydrant
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    Yes, comfortable according to the salaries posted in this thread of about 90-110,000/year...and I would consider that a comfortable salary.
     
  16. Blake

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    The few docs I know make way more money than that, actually. And I thought that quebec was the lowest paying province when it came to MD salaries. An ob/gyn I know makes around 200 k a year, and I doubt he's the only one making that kind of money, even though he's highly competent in his field. And I also know a female psychiatrist making 125 k a year, and she's started practicing recently so... Maybe these people are exceptions, but I highly doubt it. Anyway, anything over 100 k is more than comfortable for me :D
     
  17. Retinamark

    Retinamark Senior Member
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    Sure, I agree it's comfortable, but I don't think it's fair that after 15 yrs of study & countless sacrifices, doctors should earn only $100 000. There are plenty of people who do 3 yr business / commerce / marketing degrees & earn way more than that.
     
  18. leviathan

    leviathan Drinking from the hydrant
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    Well then I guess we both know the answer to this problem. If you want to make money, go get a commerce degree.
     
  19. Blake

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    Yea ! Besides, it's only 3 years of education and you don't have to work insane hours ;)
     
  20. leviathan

    leviathan Drinking from the hydrant
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    :D
     
  21. Blake

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    LOL :D * refuses med school acceptance, and goes to get a commerce degree at his local college* :p



















    We're mean... :(
     
  22. DrIng

    DrIng Senior Member
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    Uh, sorry people. I don't know what sort of hours you think people earning $100,000 who did a commerce degree ar eworking but I can tell you. I did a commerce degree and quit that to do medicien now it will take me a few years to recoup the additional cost and lsot income but I'm certainly not working much more in terms of hours as doctor than i would as a CPA.
     
  23. euromd

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    also, if you like research, then you can get research grants.

    If you play your cards right in Canada, you don't have to be a starving doctor!!!!
     
  24. jpro

    jpro Senior Member
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    Um
    No

    I mean Yes ;)
     
  25. Dr.BadVibes

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    Starving doctors? Geez, you Americans have NO idea about the Canadian healthcare system...you only hear about biased stories of overcrowding and such and then form an overall opinion. Similar to when CNN showed the picture of people wearing masks in Toronto during the whole SARS thing...Oh my god, everyone in Canada has SARS!!!.....I live in Toronto and never saw one mask......

    As far as salaries go, family doctors make incredibly insane amounts of money in Canada. My uncle is a famliy doctor in Toronto and the guy is loaded...he admits he would make more in the States, but says he doesnt want to practice down south for two reasons: (a) he doesnt want the troubles with HMOs (b) he doesnt want to deal with all the malpractice crap that US doctors face......and although, not earning as much as Americans (mostly due to exchange), you must remember that the cost of living in Canada is less than the US.

    And whats all this talk bout being taxed so much in Canada? I hear this all the time, but why do Americans seem to forget that they get taxed a hell of a lot as well.....of course it depends on the state, but take California, Mass, or Michigan....their taxes are very high as well.

    THe only difference is that US tax dollars go to fund the military.....Canada doesnt have a military, so our tax dollars fund social programs....we just have different priorities....
     
  26. doctalaughs

    doctalaughs Member
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    When you say "loaded" we have no idea how much he makes. And if he says he could make more in the states then there is something wrong with that picture. I know for a fact that FPs in the states do not make that much any more.

    The problem I have with the canadian medical system is the fact that its basically socialist. You don't make more for being an excellent doctor at the top of your field. You are not rewarded for being better.

    It is true that canadians by polls are far more satisfied with their healthcare system than in the US. I agree that the US system needs to change. But socialized medicine... no.
     
  27. devildoc2

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    I've never seen so many outright lies posted on a thread in my life.

    I dont know what specialists make in Canada, but family practice docs get raped.

    Their salaries are CAPPED at $80k canadian dollars per year, which is about $65k US dollars. That number is BEFORE TAXES!

    You guys need to research your facts first.
     
  28. Blake

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    False. And I don't need stats or something, I personally know FPs in my province who aren't capped at 80k.
     
  29. GluteusMaximus

    GluteusMaximus Junior Member
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    devildoc...where r u gettin ur info from man..fp's capped at 80 g's??....uhhh..no...they r capped but its alot higher than 80 g's..the avg fp in ontario pulls in somewhere around 130 after overhead prior to tax...ill get u the link for that later, dont have the time right now...but seriously, where r u gettin ur info from??...
     
  30. Potato!

    Potato! Senior Member
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    You're full of crap until you post a link to validate these numbers.
    (Guilty until proven innocent)


    Can I write crap?
     
  31. leviathan

    leviathan Drinking from the hydrant
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    Devildoc, what are you on? My mom has many family physician clients who are making 140k/year, some as low as 110. Where are you getting this $80k cap from?
     
  32. doctalaughs

    doctalaughs Member
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    Nevertheless, 125k/year canadian is 95k USD. With many US graduates paying 200k USD in debt and also skyrocketing malpractice insurance, that type of cap wouldn't work. They are already stretched earning 150k USD.
     
  33. coastal

    coastal Member
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  34. doctalaughs

    doctalaughs Member
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  35. coastal

    coastal Member
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    Yup, those numbers are gross, but that's all that I could find. Some specialities have other significant sources of income that are not included in these numbers (which are only the avg amounts billed to the government by the physicians). An example would be physiatry, which has an avg of ~180k, but which, according to some anecdotal evidence I've read, would read closer to 300k when private insurance work is taken into account. Despite not being there yet, I would assume that overhead in Canada would be relatively similar to overhead in the US, with the exception of malpractice insurance, which is significantly less.

    I find the comment "you are not rewarded for being better" (because we're "basically" socialist) interesting. I think rewards can come in a variety of ways: respect from your peers, successful patient outcomes, a feeling of accomplishment and pride in helping people-I would not limit "rewards" to financial considerations. Doctors, on average, make more than any other profession in Canada. Yes, they are encountering more financial difficulties (as in the US), but it is still a very, very well paying job. More importantly, I think, is that it is incredibly rewarding. Would I go through 8 years of university and several more years of residency to make 50,000 (Cdn) a year: probably not, because I'd never be able to pay off my debt. But money is far from the primary motivator in my career choice.

    Canada does have socialized medicine and.......we like it. By and large, Canadians believe in the principle of equal access that underlies the Canada Health Act; as a society we think that need and not ability to pay should be the determinant of who gets care. While there are obviously Canadians who do not agree with this, the recent Romanow Report on Canadian health reform, the most comprehensive study of health care delivery in our country's history, bears out the fact that most Canadians stand by the principles of the Canada health act, despite the assertions of a vocal minority with vested interests in privatized care. The whole idea of being "better" and "deserving" to get paid more still exists in Canada, we just water it down. I'm smart, articulate, good at sports blah blah blah.......but I don't think I can take credit for alot of that. I have good genes, I was raised well, in a supportive environment, I didn't want for much that I really needed. I don't think of myself as better most of the time, just luckier-luckier not only for the endowments I have been given, but for a sense of how to use them to my advantage (occasionally....). If it's a matter of luck, then I feel that I have a responsibility to help those who haven't been as lucky. Call it socialism if you like, but I would prefer to call it compassion, a social conscience, and an understanding that not everyone gets the same cards, so, if you have a good hand, you can't just hoard your winnings.

    All that said, I respect the differing philosophies that others have-philosophy is, in good part, a reflection of one's life experience and environment. I find that there is quite a difference between the posts on SDN, which is predominantly American, and on the equivalent Canadian site, premed101. No offense intended, but there are alot more posts about money here.

    Cheers
     
  36. Blake

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    Coastal, it's people like you who make me proud of being canadian :thumbup: Premed 101 ? I'll look for it.
     
  37. doctalaughs

    doctalaughs Member
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    Well said, and I agree with much of what you said. I agree that rewards come primarily not from money and that compensation is a separate issue.

    From what I read about the canadian system it seems to be working well there. I'm just afraid it won't work in the US because the sense of entitlement people have here and the litigous environment. By entitlement I mean everyone thinks they have a right to the most cutting edge technologies, the most expensive drugs, and the MRIs/CTs that 99% chance will be unnecessary. Of course you know about the litigiousness of the US system.

    I would be curious to hear about how malpractice is handled in Canada and how often doctors are sued (and how often cases are frivilous).

    Also, I've heard stories that the rich in Canada if they want to skip lines just go to the US for healthcare and pay out of pocket. Is that true or do they have a big private market in Canada? Can you get an MRI or elective knee surgury immediately if you have the money? Or do these people just go across the border.
     
  38. coastal

    coastal Member
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    The Canadian system is not working well. The primary reason for this is the fact that over the last couple decades the federal government has been steadily reducing their contribution to health care. HC in Canada is administered by the provinces, however, they rely on the feds for a huge chunk of change that comes in the form of a social transfer payment. We have a federal government that tries to make national rules regarding health care, but their position is bankrupt because they contribute only 16% of the funds for HC. We have heard a recent promise to get that % back up to 25, which would have a huge impact. As it is now, the system is underfunded. Those who can afford it do sometimes go to the US for care (as do those for real cutting edge procedures), often for the higher tech diagnostic procedures such as MRIs.

    I think Canadians have the same sense of entitlement that Americans do, but in a slightly toned down, less "all about me" kind of way. I making a huge generalization about Americans, which is probably unfair, but the culture strikes me as more self-centered. Also, the mandate of our health system is to provide all "medically-necessary" procedures. So, if Mr. Jones' condition does not indicate procedure X, he's not going to get it just because he wants it (as he would in a consumer oriented HC system assuming he had the cash).

    As far as malpractice goes, everyone gets sued. I've read that most doctors will get sued within their first 10 years of practice, usually for something frivolous. I truly believe we have the dominance of American culture to thank for that. At the same time, Canadian juries do not tend to give out ridiculous settlments as they do in the US. The canadian med forum I usually read has practically no threads about malpractice. I've seen several on SDN, just in the last couple days, which is probably indicative of the relevance malpractice suits have for Cdn and Am doctors.

    I'm gonna go, I'm spending too much time on the computer today.
    Plus, Jeapardy is on, and That Guy, is kicking ass again.
     
  39. Doctor

    Doctor of Doctors
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    3 years later: 125k/year Canadian (which is low for a Canadian FP physician) is now 130k USD. Soon Canadian doctors will earn more than American doctors! The least well-paid FP doctors just got a 35k raise relative to the Americans.
     
  40. tantrum

    tantrum Senior Member
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    Most of the FP's I know are making CD$200K in a small city. Yes, they are overworked (they do some OB's) but they are now earning more than their US counterparts.
     
  41. Methodnike

    Methodnike Family Physician
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    my dad is a Family Physician in Quebec (worst paid province for fp and most specialties) and gross he makes over 200k, i think around 100k net. That's about 140k US after taxes for a fp.

    In USA, you dont make more money as an fp or an internist.
     
  42. pseudomonas

    pseudomonas New Member
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  43. otl

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    Having worked for many years in commerce and business fields, I would say medical careers pay comfortably well compared to most other professions. More important than pay is the opportunity to make a real difference to our fellow beings!
     
  44. anradam

    anradam Junior Member
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    I'm a pgy4 gastroenterology fellow in canada, and am aware of the situation in both the us and canada, abim certified..canadian physicians are very well paid..in fact, canadian internists make more than american internists/hospitalist..they make in the range of 250k a year..
    there is a difference in specialist salaries, if the average gi doc in canada makes 350k a year, an american doc on average does not make that much more, although some do..overall, the average american specialist physician in my mind makes about 50-100k more particularly true for anesthesia nd cardiology..while 350k vs 450k is significant, it is not the end of the world..family physicians in canada are the exception, they are notoriously underpaid, because they don't bill as much and because they pay their own overhead..the range for a family physician in canda is 110k to 250k, pending on the nature of the practice.. but overall, the canadian system is much better..why?there are no HMO's..again, there are no HMO's!!..
    this means we work for ourselves, no one tells when we work, when we take vacation, what investigations are appropiate, and because we are in higher demand (less physicians per unit population than the us), we deal with less crap from patients and from referring physicians, have less time dealing with insurance companies (1% vs 10%), litagation rates are much lower........
     
  45. Dr.Millisevert

    Dr.Millisevert Senior Member
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    :laugh::laugh: 1CAD = 1.03USD :laugh::laugh:
     
  46. lil jon

    lil jon New Member

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    honestly, I don't know where people get these ridiculously low figures for Canadian physician incomes (i.e. the $33-100K range). There are numerous family physicians working outside major cities who earn far more than $200K, especially with alternative funding models coming into play.

    I know some emerg docs who bill over $300K working ~30 hrs a week. The average ophtho billing was around 700K in Ontario last year I believe. Also, if you search enough, you'll find the list BC put out with names and incomes.

    Those low quotes probably came from an article called "Canadian health system designed by Stalin himself!":rolleyes:
     
  47. Methodnike

    Methodnike Family Physician
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  48. dosimetry

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    Wow...I can't believe there are so many dumb people on this forum...

    For 100k CAD, you'll take home approximately 72k. In 2004 it was about 70k, or 31%.

    In the States, the income tax rate (fed & state) is not much lower than in Canada, especially for the low~mid income families.
     
  49. dosimetry

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    It's very inaccurate, Canadian specialists make in between 150-200k on average. In fact in 2000 Ontario specialists only made 160k on average (according to Ont Occupational Profile). Even in 2007, American specialists only made about 170k on average (compare to 150k for CEOs, stats from US Labor Bureau).
     
    #48 dosimetry, Mar 13, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2009
  50. dosimetry

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    LOL...this guy's hilarious :laugh:

    A new pharm grad in Ontario make about 20k more than that and I'm not even counting the huge amount of sign on bonus being offered by many big stores (that alone is about 20~50k for 2-3 years).
     
  51. dosimetry

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    Don't worry, in North America physicians make more than CEOs on average (though CEOs can make a lot more if you add the stocks, etc).
     

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