MD V DO

[2024 or 5 ?]

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I only applied to MD. No A's. I did not apply to DO as I was told that MD's have a much greater chance of getting the residencies they want. I will likley be reapplying. Are there distinct advantages of MD vs DO?

 

[Goro]

More doors are open to you as an MD, although that doesn't mean you can automatically waltz right through them.

But in the end, when you're an attending, your salary as a DO will be the same as MDs in the same field.

As a reapplicant, it will be prudent to have DO schools on your list, because beggars can't be choosy.

 

[LizzyM]

The distinct advantage is that you might actually be admitted and come out the other side as a licensed physician versus being an unsuccessful applicant two or three times.

 

[medschoolboi2023]

As someone who initially didnt apply DO, make sure you have good sources. I relied on poor premed advisor advice to go MD only despite having a lot of interest in lower competitive fields. Its true that more competitive doors may be closed if you go DO, but I encourage you to look at the match rates for fields you may have interest as many of them have similar rates for DO and MD.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Charting Outcomes will show the match rate for different specialties for MD and DO, and IMG applicants. To match a competitive specialty, you must be a competitive applicant, meaning you must have high class rank, board scores, and other checked boxes for that specialty. Everyone in med school is smart, so you have to excel within that population. If you aren't a strong applicant for med school, you will have quite a challenge to rise to that level. Not impossible, but certainly a quite a challenge. Being a DO doesn't exclude you from some specialties, it just makes the path harder. Many DOs match difficult to match specialties, but they are excellent candidates. If you are up to the task, then you could be one of them. It's all on you. Good luck and best wishes.

 

[wook]

Charting Outcomes will show the match rate for different specialties for MD and DO, and IMG applicants. To match a competitive specialty, you must be a competitive applicant, meaning you must have high class rank, board scores, and other checked boxes for that specialty. Everyone in med school is smart, so you have to excel within that population. If you aren't a strong applicant for med school, you will have quite a challenge to rise to that level. Not impossible, but certainly a quite a challenge. Being a DO doesn't exclude you from some specialties, it just makes the path harder. Many DOs match difficult to match specialties, but they are excellent candidates. If you are up to the task, then you could be one of them. It's all on you. Good luck and best wishes.

I would echo that MD or DO is less relevant than your efforts/focus/drive to excel.

In a few specialties, the MD may have an advantage (e.g. ophthalmology, dermatology, etc), but that has slowly been changing.

Generally, the individual's drive and achievements will be the more important factors to matching a choice specialty/residency.

 

[LizzyM]

To put it another way, it is not that a specific student went to a MD or DO school that dictated that they would or wouldn't match into a specific residency in a specific specialty, it was the characteristics of the student that dictate the outcome. Some of those same characteristics also influenced whether the applicant was admitted to MD or DO.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I only applied to MD. No A's. I did not apply to DO as I was told that MD's have a much greater chance of getting the residencies they want. I will likley be reapplying. Are there distinct advantages of MD vs DO?

The obvious question: what specialty were you aspiring for? I agree you can't get there without getting into medical school first (cart before horse), but you may have to reapply now because of that reason (not apply DO). Also, do you have WL's after interview?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

To put it into simpler terms, if you are a weaker candidate for medical school, it would seem, you are likely a weaker candidate for residency. To reiterate, what Madame speaker @LizzyM stated, you first must get into medical school, be it MD or DO. And you target your medical schools based in your actual record and not on the hopes and dreams that cloud judgement.

And now Madam Speaker, I yield the flloor

^^^^^^^^ This should be posted for every " No A's, should I apply DO" thread . Succinct and accurate.

 

[soontobedoc98]

^^^^^^^^ This should be posted for every " No A's, should I apply DO" thread . Succinct and accurate.

Are you a DO? I had a few questions... Is it OK if I PM you?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Are you a DO? I had a few questions... Is it OK if I PM you?

Sure.

 

[soontobedoc98]

Sure.

Just tried PMing you.. I can't Dx

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Just tried PMing you.. I can't Dx

I just pm'd you. Should be ok now.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Can’t be choosy if there aren’t any other options…

I don’t regret DO. I hustled for 4 years to make myself a very competitive applicant and matched my moderately competitive specialty at a strong program. I’m the only DO in my program.

At this point people identify me as a surgeon and not where my medical degree is from.

 

[wook]

Can’t be choosy if there aren’t any other options…

I don’t regret DO. I hustled for 4 years to make myself a very competitive applicant and matched my moderately competitive specialty at a strong program. I’m the only DO in my program.

At this point people identify me as a surgeon and not where my medical degree is from.

@DOVinciRobot.....Clever name! Love it!

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Really depends on what you’re interested in and how set you are on it. For example if you want to do neurosurgery, dermatology, plastics etc. and couldn’t imagine doing anything else, it behooves you to attend an MD school, preferably a top tier

 

[GoSpursGo]

Entering med school, any med school (MD or DO), gives someone a very high likelihood of attaining a stable job with very comfortable compensation for the rest of their life. The likelihood ascends to near certainty once someone actually graduates medical school.

What it does NOT assure you is that you will get to practice in the specialty of your choice. By sheer numbers, there are more students who are interested in lucrative and/or lifestyle-friendly specialties than there are residency spots. Attending an MD school makes it more likely to match some of these more competitive fields, but it still is not assured. But the bottom line is, both when applying to med school initially and later when applying to residency, is that you need to be honest with yourself on your competitiveness as an applicant and target programs that are appropriate for your competitiveness level. This may mean that you could be practicing a specialty that was not your top choice when you entered medical school... but that still means that you are likely winding up with an outcome that is very favorable, considering a lot of people in the general population don't necessarily love their jobs.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You can't get into an MD school, and you're wondering about the advantage of the only pathway you may have to be a doctor. Let me spell it out for you:

DO = You'll be a doctor. MD = you can't get into it, so you won't be a doctor

 

[holdthemayo]

Not to pile on, but

If your choices are an MD acceptance vs a DO acceptance, in most cases you should take the MD.

If your choices are a DO acceptance or an MD rejection. Well, only one of those makes you a physician in 4 years.

 

[dingleberrypie]

I only applied to MD. No A's. I did not apply to DO as I was told that MD's have a much greater chance of getting the residencies they want. I will likley be reapplying. Are there distinct advantages of MD vs DO?

USMD = another year of rejection (+emotional damage), delay to your education (+1 year deleted from lifespan), loss of an extra year of an attending salary down the line (- 250k USD minimum)

USDO = potentially become a physician in 4 years

 

[DoctorSparkles]

I haven't talked to a single physician that has said being a DO held them back. My mentor is a DO and she is the head of neurosurgery at the largest hospital system in a major metro city. That being said, I don't recommend DO if you don't understand/have no interest in the philosophy and/or OMM - I have several peers that are only in the program because they couldn't go anywhere else and they are really struggling because they can't fake an interest.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

edit:

There are advantages to DO school, and I think under the right circumstances the holistic / better bedside manner / open to alternative therapies thing does happen at a higher rate in DO schools than MD schools. But this I believe comes down more to the student and what they are already bringing in to the school, alongside having the right mentors and cohorts that amplify that.

The school culture is often overlooked, and indeed is the hidden checkbox that a lot don't talk about. I think I would fit in better at most DO school simply due to my non-trad status and my personal goals for pursuing medicine. I know folks who seek out DO physicians specifically because they (the patient) believe them (the doctor) to have a higher % likelihood of having traits that are desirable to their (the patient's) specific care needs.

I used to be a Kool-aid drinker and only wanted to apply DO, despite my stats/ECs being very high (presently). I think it still would be a better fit for me, but I am planning on applying to both. But because I will likely not get MCAT scores until August / September my MD chances may be lower and this becomes a moot point.

Just don't think that DO school is always considered a backup / second-rate. There are students and patients out there who think otherwise, but the objective nature of having worse residency opportunities is very real.

 

[NeuroMed6]

edit:

There are advantages to DO school, and I think under the right circumstances the holistic / better bedside manner / open to alternative therapies thing does happen at a higher rate in DO schools than MD schools. But this I believe comes down more to the student and what they are already bringing in to the school, alongside having the right mentors and cohorts that amplify that.

The school culture is often overlooked, and indeed is the hidden checkbox that a lot don't talk about. I think I would fit in better at most DO school simply due to my non-trad status and my personal goals for pursuing medicine. I know folks who seek out DO physicians specifically because they (the patient) believe them (the doctor) to have a higher % likelihood of having traits that are desirable to their (the patient's) specific care needs.

I used to be a Kool-aid drinker and only wanted to apply DO, despite my stats/ECs being very high (presently). I think it still would be a better fit for me, but I am planning on applying to both. But because I will likely not get MCAT scores until August / September my MD chances may be lower and this becomes a moot point.

Just don't think that DO school is always considered a backup / second-rate. There are students and patients out there who think otherwise, but the objective nature of having worse residency opportunities is very real.

I agree with you that DO schools might be a better fit for certain applicants. However, I don’t believe that being open to “alternative medicine” is a benefit of such programs, especially regarding methods that are not backed by solid evidence (acupuncture, etc.).

 

[soontobedoc98]

edit:

There are advantages to DO school, and I think under the right circumstances the holistic / better bedside manner / open to alternative therapies thing does happen at a higher rate in DO schools than MD schools. But this I believe comes down more to the student and what they are already bringing in to the school, alongside having the right mentors and cohorts that amplify that.

The school culture is often overlooked, and indeed is the hidden checkbox that a lot don't talk about. I think I would fit in better at most DO school simply due to my non-trad status and my personal goals for pursuing medicine. I know folks who seek out DO physicians specifically because they (the patient) believe them (the doctor) to have a higher % likelihood of having traits that are desirable to their (the patient's) specific care needs.

I used to be a Kool-aid drinker and only wanted to apply DO, despite my stats/ECs being very high (presently). I think it still would be a better fit for me, but I am planning on applying to both. But because I will likely not get MCAT scores until August / September my MD chances may be lower and this becomes a moot point.

Just don't think that DO school is always considered a backup / second-rate. There are students and patients out there who think otherwise, but the objective nature of having worse residency opportunities is very real.

Really cool take on this situation.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Where are the peer reviewed studies on OMM?

 

[EthylMethylMan]

The only good anti-DO arguments I've heard are:

1. Lower odds of matching uber-competitive specialties.
2. Generally more expensive than USMD.
3. You'll probably take both COMLEX and USMLE.
4. OMM is woo-woo medicine and takes time away from studying the stuff you're really there to learn.

In my opinion, to address each:

1. It's considerably harder (but not impossible) to match surgical subs and derm as a DO. However, you will very likely not want to apply to the specialty you're drawn to as a pre-med. What you see and appreciate about a specialty is different when you're a pre-med vs a med student. In my opinion, it's not worth it to pour years of effort and money into revamping your application if you're in DO range already, just so you can maybe get into MD and get a higher chance to match into a specialty you don't even know you'll like. Also, match rates for the other specialties tend to be pretty comparable between DO and USMD. Interestingly, in 2022, matched DOs in general surgery had an average of 12.2 contiguous ranks -- MDs had an average of 14.2. Matched DOs also had slightly lower USMLE scores. No idea what to make of that data, but I thought it was interesting in a reassuring way for current DO students.

2. It's gonna be expensive no matter what unless you get a scholarship. If you live Dave Ramsey style for your first few years as an attending, you'll most likely pay it off and be in a good spot either way.

3. I'm MD, so I can't personally speak to this, but my understanding is that COMLEX is basically easier-mode USMLE with annoying question stem wording and OMM. Most DOs I've spoken to have said that studying for USMLE prepares you well for most of COMLEX. So not that much of a loss since you obviously take USMLE as an MD anyway.

4. At best you might actually like it and find some uses for it. I know one or two DOs who bust out the OMM occasionally. At worst, just push through. It's the DO tax.

 

[LizzyM]

I agree with you that DO schools might be a better fit for certain applicants. However, I don’t believe that being open to “alternative medicine” is a benefit of such programs, especially regarding methods that are not backed by solid evidence (acupuncture, etc.).

"National Institutes of Health (NIH) studies have shown that acupuncture is an effective treatment alone or in combination with conventional therapies to treat the following:..."

Acupuncture

Acupuncture is the practice of puncturing the skin with needles at certain anatomical points in the body to relieve specific symptoms associated with many diseases.

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

 

[NeuroMed6]

"National Institutes of Health (NIH) studies have shown that acupuncture is an effective treatment alone or in combination with conventional therapies to treat the following:..."

Acupuncture

Acupuncture is the practice of puncturing the skin with needles at certain anatomical points in the body to relieve specific symptoms associated with many diseases.

www.hopkinsmedicine.org

Systematic Review of Systematic Reviews of Acupuncture

"

• Acupuncture points have no basis in anatomy, physiology, or neuroscience and essentially they don’t exist.
• Acupuncture has no plausible or established mechanism, and many practitioners reference “chi” which is a nonexistent magical life force.
• Acupuncturists claim that acupuncture can work for a wide variety of medical conditions that have nothing functionally to do with each other. ....

"

 

[LizzyM]

As my mother always said, "consider the source"

About SBM

Exploring issues and controversies in the relationship between science and medicineScience-Based Medicine is dedicated to evaluating medical treatments and products of interest to the public in a

sciencebasedmedicine.org

 

[NeuroMed6]

As my mother always said, "consider the source"

About SBM

Exploring issues and controversies in the relationship between science and medicineScience-Based Medicine is dedicated to evaluating medical treatments and products of interest to the public in a

sciencebasedmedicine.org

I can’t seem to find an argument that would discredit this source. But, here’s a little bit more about the author:

“Steven Novella, MD is an academic clinical neurologist at the Yale University School of Medicine. He is also the host and producer of the popular weekly science podcast, The Skeptics’ Guide to the Universe, and the author of the NeuroLogicaBlog, a daily blog that covers news and issues in neuroscience, but also general science, scientific skepticism, philosophy of science, critical thinking, and the intersection of science with the media and society.”

And he’s the link to the original systematic review article for those who care to provide evidence-based treatments to patients:

Use of Acupuncture for Adult Health Conditions, 2013 to 2021

This systematic review maps the conclusions and certainty or quality of evidence regarding the outcomes of acupuncture as a treatment for adult health conditions found in systematic reviews.

jamanetwork.com

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Where are the peer reviewed studies on OMM?

They are out there, just need to look. See my post from June 21,2020, Scientific Validity of OMM, #21 in Med Student DO Forum. I'll say no more in this thread on the topic respecting @gonnif 's moderation.

 

[ihatescience99]

I haven't talked to a single physician that has said being a DO held them back. My mentor is a DO and she is the head of neurosurgery at the largest hospital system in a major metro city. That being said, I don't recommend DO if you don't understand/have no interest in the philosophy and/or OMM - I have several peers that are only in the program because they couldn't go anywhere else and they are really struggling because they can't fake an interest.

As a counter point to this I have done extensive shadowing with DO plastic surgeon in an academic setting and he advised against becoming a DO if at all possible to get into an MD. He advised I retake the MCAT (509) and strengthen my MD application, and try MD alone once and if it didn't work out apply to both the second time around. His reasoning was the difficulty of matching into both residency and a microvascular fellowship. He said many places especially during fellowship apps simply viewed his DO status negatively. That said he's now an attending at a good MD program with residents and fellows from T10's. The stigma (which I don't agree with) still exists, who knows in 4-5 years from now though. But for right now anyone would be hard pressed to find someone in a competitive speciality to say DO = MD in opportunity particularly in academia.

just my experience with this one DO though, however his candor helped me figure out my path so I figured I'd share the knowledge I was given

 

[DOVinciRobot]

As a counter point to this I have done extensive shadowing with DO plastic surgeon in an academic setting and he advised against becoming a DO if at all possible to get into an MD. He advised I retake the MCAT (509) and strengthen my MD application, and try MD alone once and if it didn't work out apply to both the second time around. His reasoning was the difficulty of matching into both residency and a microvascular fellowship. He said many places especially during fellowship apps simply viewed his DO status negatively. That said he's now an attending at a good MD program with residents and fellows from T10's. The stigma (which I don't agree with) still exists, who knows in 4-5 years from now though. But for right now anyone would be hard pressed to find someone in a competitive speciality to say DO = MD in opportunity particularly in academia.

just my experience with this one DO though, however his candor helped me figure out my path so I figured I'd share the knowledge I was given

I agree with him, but this poster has already applied and failed to garner an MD A. At this point applications to DO schools are warranted if OP wants to become a physician of any kind.

There are definitely drawbacks when it comes to being a DO in the match, all of which have been hammered on SDN numerous times, often by myself. But your mentor is a good example of the possibility to overcome the bias and have a strong career.

High end academia and plastic surgery are the two most DO unfriendly realms, so your mentor likely saw the worst of the worst examples of bias.

 

[Splenda88]

You are losing 300-500k/yr and opportunity cost while worrying about [insert].

If you are having a hard time getting into even a low tier MD after trying a couple of times, you probably (albeit not impossible) will have a hard time getting into ENT, ophthal, ortho, neurosurgery, derm, plastics etc,.. even as an MD.

I attended a low tier MD and my classmates who got into ENT, ophthalmology, neurosurgery had to go thru hell. (250+/260+ step 1/2, good grades and a bunch of research papers). Few had to take a gap year.

These specialties are competitive for a reason. The combo of money/prestige or money/lifestyle or all three make these specialties very attractive even-though med students or physicians don't want to admit it.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

I agree with you that DO schools might be a better fit for certain applicants. However, I don’t believe that being open to “alternative medicine” is a benefit of such programs, especially regarding methods that are not backed by solid evidence (acupuncture, etc.).

What I was getting at is some patients cease all care from a medical doctor in lieu of the alternative therapies. I'm saying it's better for me to supervise them getting their crystal therapy, versus taking a confrontational stance and losing them altogether. Working WITH the patient instead of them getting mad and leaving allopathic medicine forever.

The side effects of losing one patient can have big ripples, especially in smaller or traditional communities, who are very tight-nit, who will then spread the woes of modern medicine while uplifting the crystals. And that just starts the cycle anew.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

On topic, we are talking about DO competitiveness... Can't DOs do things to increase their competitiveness for some of the mid-range specialties?

For example, if someone is considering delaying a year vs applying DO, couldn't they just go DO and then do a research year or something else to be more competitive? My thinking is I'd rather be a med student for a year longer than an undergrad / bachelor for a year longer.

I know MD students can do that as well, but are there any other things DOs can do to up their game, outside of the few VERY unfriendly spots?

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

They are out there, just need to look. See my post from June 21,2020, Scientific Validity of OMM, #21 in Med Student DO Forum. I'll say no more in this thread on the topic respecting @gonnif 's moderation.

I remember Goro having a post recently about how DO schools could be doing way more research on stuff, especially the cranial. I certainly think there is validity in pretty much ANYTHING being an effective treatment for depression, anxiety, etc, as the brain is our most nebulous organ and can basically do anything. I mean, technically we could wake up in a different reality where squares are now somehow triangles.

Haha!

I actually have a local DO right around the corner from me who is an OMM-focused practice, I have been meaning to go in and pick their brain if at all possible. Although I fear they may be a True Believer but who am I to judge!


I think we did forget to tack on that DO is an advantage if you plan to start an OMM practice, one less thing you have to find training for as an MD! (See how I am keeping this on topic 😉? )

 

[Goro]

On topic, we are talking about DO competitiveness... Can't DOs do things to increase their competitiveness for some of the mid-range specialties?

For example, if someone is considering delaying a year vs applying DO, couldn't they just go DO and then do a research year or something else to be more competitive? My thinking is I'd rather be a med student for a year longer than an undergrad / bachelor for a year longer.

I know MD students can do that as well, but are there any other things DOs can do to up their game, outside of the few VERY unfriendly spots?

Of course!

A research year worked for one of my students who got into an uber-specialty at a very good program.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

Of course!

A research year worked for one of my students who got into an uber-specialty at a very good program.

Can people take more than one year? Although I imagine $$$ at the school would be yikes.

What about graduating and then working as a non-licensed physician for a year? Perhaps to pad a CV or spend time to improve standardized scores? Are there any ways to obtain licensure outside of ERAS? (To work until you get matched).

 

[gyngyn]

Can people take more than one year? Although I imagine $$$ at the school would be yikes.

What about graduating and then working as a non-licensed physician for a year? Perhaps to pad a CV or spend time to improve standardized scores? Are there any ways to obtain licensure outside of ERAS? (To work until you get matched).

US Seniors have the best chance at Match success.
Those who have graduated go stale fast. It does not improve an application. YOG (year of graduation) is one of the most common screens for PD's.
There is a very narrow way for IMG's to get privileges at academic programs for the ability to teach a (usually surgical) technique.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I remember Goro having a post recently about how DO schools could be doing way more research on stuff, especially the cranial. I certainly think there is validity in pretty much ANYTHING being an effective treatment for depression, anxiety, etc, as the brain is our most nebulous organ and can basically do anything. I mean, technically we could wake up in a different reality where squares are now somehow triangles.

Haha!

I actually have a local DO right around the corner from me who is an OMM-focused practice, I have been meaning to go in and pick their brain if at all possible. Although I fear they may be a True Believer but who am I to judge!


I think we did forget to tack on that DO is an advantage if you plan to start an OMM practice, one less thing you have to find training for as an MD! (See how I am keeping this on topic 😉? )

My post was referring to an earlier post I made in response to the question "where is there any peer reviewed data suggesting OMT is effective."This question comes up frequently from those lacking the minimal intellectual curiosity to do a Google search. The post documents several articles published in mainstream journals, Annals of Internal Med, etc.