MD view of the DO?

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pushinepi2 said:
A friend of mine landed an anesthesia spot over at Hopkins... without taking USMLE. You've heard of Hopkins, right?

dude, im seriously gonna call you on this one.........
I have heard about this DO that matched into Hopkins like ten millions times. I swear this guy must be the most famous DO in the world, because anytime there is this type of MD vs DO discussion, some DO will say "I know this DO that matched into Hopkins Anesthesia!!" Of course there is the other guy who matched into some allo ortho program... and then the other guy who matched into a decent allo radiology program and then of course there is you who matched at the Maryland EM program. The fact is these types of matches are pretty rare from DO's....its kinda misleading to make an argument using examples that are not the norm, but are the exceptions. And if you say that great matches like the ones you listed are not rare take a look at the match lists. Match list from DO schools are not so great, especially if you compare them to MD schools. Please dont flame me for this previous statement... its just the cold hard truth!

Oh and your comments about the USLMEs not being important for matching into good residencies is BS... Im sorry it really is BS... you can quote me specific examples where it may have not mattered, but again, these examples are not representative of the majority.
 
bababuey said:
Oh and your comments about the USLMEs not being important for matching into good residencies is BS... Im sorry it really is BS... you can quote me specific examples where it may have not mattered, but again, these examples are not representative of the majority.

You are a straight up troll. At least half of your past posts have been nothing but DO-bashing. It doesn't take a genius to look up someone's post history. I don't even know why I bothered to read your comments. They're only there to provoke...
 
bababuey said:
dude, im seriously gonna call you on this one.........
I have heard about this DO that matched into Hopkins like ten millions times. I swear this guy must be the most famous DO in the world, because anytime there is this type of MD vs DO discussion, some DO will say "I know this DO that matched into Hopkins Anesthesia!!" Of course there is the other guy who matched into some allo ortho program... and then the other guy who matched into a decent allo radiology program and then of course there is you


i think that hopkins gas D.O match will be on good morning america tomorrow morning; should be an excellent way to kick off the day; look for him
 
LVDoc said:
You are a straight up troll. At least half of your past posts have been nothing but DO-bashing. It doesn't take a genius to look up someone's post history. I don't even know why I bothered to read your comments. They're only there to provoke...


Just cuz i state the truth??? Seriously im tired of ppl in this forum being sooo damn politically correct. Im sorry if the truth hurts... but go cry yourself a river somewhere else. Most of my posts just refute crap other ppl have posted... Just cuz i say things you dont agree with doesnt mean im a troll.
 
bababuey said:
Just cuz i state the truth??? Seriously im tired of ppl in this forum being sooo damn politically correct. Im sorry if the truth hurts... but go cry yourself a river somewhere else. Most of my posts just refute crap other ppl have posted... Just cuz i say things you dont agree with doesnt mean im a troll.

So let me get this straight, what exactly are you going to do if you find yourself working next to a D.O., whether it be in the same hospital, a private practice, etc. Are you going to complain and insist that the D.O. have his/her licensing privileges revoked? Are you going to tell the patients that they're not seeing a "real" medical doctor?

Please, I would really love to know, what are you going to do in this case?

I'd like to leave with you one final clarification. The term "physician," a doctor with unlimited rights and privileges in all fifty states, is used for only those persons holding either a D.O. or M.D. degree. Ph.D.'s, Pharm.D.'s, D.C.'s, D.P.M.'s, D.V.M.'s don't apply here. So, whether you like it or not, whether it is politically correct or not, an osteopathic graduate is a physician, as is an allopathic graduate. That's the end of the story - despite all of your own inferiority/superiority complexes, we are still recognized as physicians. Maybe this puts you to shame, at least in your eyes, that DO's who didn't accomplish as much as you and your own narrow-minded MD colleagues will still be called physicians and will still be recognized as the legal equivalent of you. Just something for you to think about.
 
LVDoc said:
So let me get this straight, what exactly are you going to do if you find yourself working next to a D.O., whether it be in the same hospital, a private practice, etc. Are you going to complain and insist that the D.O. have his/her licensing privileges revoked? Are you going to tell the patients that they're not seeing a "real" medical doctor?

Please, I would really love to know, what are you going to do in this case?

I'd like to leave with you one final clarification. The term "physician," a doctor with unlimited rights and privileges in all fifty states, is used for only those persons holding either a D.O. or M.D. degree. Ph.D.'s, Pharm.D.'s, D.C.'s, D.P.M.'s, D.V.M.'s don't apply here. So, whether you like it or not, whether it is politically correct or not, an osteopathic graduate is a physician, as is an allopathic graduate. That's the end of the story - despite all of your own inferiority/superiority complexes, we are still recognized as physicians. Maybe this puts you to shame, at least in your eyes, that DO's who didn't accomplish as much as you and your own narrow-minded MD colleagues will still be called physicians. Just something for you to think about.

Who ever said that I didnt consider DO's as real physicians. In fact I dont think anyone in this whole thread has said that. You automatically assume that once someone says anything negative about a DO, whether it is the truth or not, you immediately jump all over that poster. Did i ever say that i would never work with a DO? Did i ever say that i want DO licenses revoked? Did I ever say DOs are not real doctors? DId i ever question the term "physician"? Perhaps you have heard those things from someone else, but those words never came out of my mouth.

ALL i tried to do on this thread was point out the facts, whether it was PC or not. We all know that DOs dont score as well on USLMEs, we all know that DOs dont match as well...all i did was point this out to support people like Fantasy Sport who gets flamed because he says things that are true but may not be politically correct.

Im just tired of people spitting out crap as the truth, when we all know they are not. Seriously i have nothing againsts DO's in general... in fact some of my closest college buddies went to osteo schools... I just have problems with the people on this forum who bull****...
 
I think about 4 DO's matched JHU gas last year and the year before. Anyways this thread blows.

Nice low blow with the comPlex BTW. As smooth as broken glass.

Look fellas, I specialize in bone treatments....thats where the DO difference lies. In addition I have a NIH funded research grant to develop pine scented Depends undergarments. Beat that Mr. Fishlips sports guy!
 
as with all md vs do threads.. this one has 👎

hehe but in the spirit of it... POWER TO THE DO!!! 😀
 
Dr Who said:
I prefer Pepsi.
Coke is just overrated. People say they are the same, I say hell no!!!

But Coke treats the WHOLE patient... :laugh:
 
OK, since everyone is ignoring me, I will post the stats. You folks can bicker all day long about USMLE vs Complex and whatever. The fact is, it is does not equate to match stats. DO YOU HEAR ME... MATCH STATS! That is what matters!

Here is the overall breakdown for 2004 (2005 should be up too).

Percent unmatched US seniors for PGY-1 = 7.1%
Percent unmatched Osteo seniors for PGY-1 = 29.6%
Percent unmatched for US foreign grads for PGY -1 = 44.6%
😱


Source NRMP table 1998-2004

When I saw this (with the 2005 data) after match day I was FLOORED! I had no idea that such a large percentage of people can go unmatched at a school.

Keep in mind that these are the overall numbers. There were schools that were less and those that, heaven help them, were higher.
 
Thought I would add my two cents...

The DO's I have worked with have been just as good (and in some cases better) than MD's. It has been stated many times that the education (with the exception of OMM) is the same and that is true.

I believe the quality of care between DO's and MD's is the same regardless of specialty. That being said, I have my doubts about OMM, especially when one of my DO colleague said she could feel the postive energy flowing through the spinal canal of one of her patients during OMM. She is a great physician but that seriously turned me off...
 
The fact that everyone keeps saying complex is cracking me up.

Maybe it's like a Hb curve...So we can agree that maybe DO schools have on average a little bit less book smart people (and maybe that does contribute to the lower usmle rate?)....But to be good clinicians, maybe it just takes like a certain level of intelligence...Like how at 92% saturation versus 98% there's no diff...So if you have the basic level it doesn't matter. I mean this doesn't really relate to this thread too much just thought that was a fun analogy.
 
No, what contributes to the lower USMLE rate is the fact that DO schools teach to do well on the COMLEX. Furthermore, who wants to take the USMLE a week or two after they busted their hump on the COMLEX?
 
crys20 said:
The fact that everyone keeps saying complex is cracking me up.

Maybe it's like a Hb curve...So we can agree that maybe DO schools have on average a little bit less book smart people (and maybe that does contribute to the lower usmle rate?)....But to be good clinicians, maybe it just takes like a certain level of intelligence...Like how at 92% saturation versus 98% there's no diff...So if you have the basic level it doesn't matter. I mean this doesn't really relate to this thread too much just thought that was a fun analogy.


Hb curve? Geek.
 
I'm not gonna lie. I'm a little nerdy.

How diff ARE the comlex and usmle though? besides 20% OMM and learning your micro maybe a bit better for comlex; i don't understand the whole 'they teach for it' better...is the material not the same? will you not be studying from the same books in your first 2 yrs?
 
crys20 said:
I'm not gonna lie. I'm a little nerdy.

How diff ARE the comlex and usmle though? besides 20% OMM and learning your micro maybe a bit better for comlex; i don't understand the whole 'they teach for it' better...is the material not the same? will you not be studying from the same books in your first 2 yrs?

OK, since everyone is ignoring me, I will post the stats. You folks can bicker all day long about USMLE vs Complex and whatever. The fact is, it is does not equate to match stats. DO YOU HEAR ME... MATCH STATS! That is what matters!

Here is the overall breakdown for 2004 (2005 should be up too).

Percent unmatched US seniors for PGY-1 = 7.1%
Percent unmatched Osteo seniors for PGY-1 = 29.6%
Percent unmatched for US foreign grads for PGY -1 = 44.6%
😱


Source NRMP table 1998-2004

When I saw this (with the 2005 data) after match day I was FLOORED! I had no idea that such a large percentage of people can go unmatched at a school.

Keep in mind that these are the overall numbers. There were schools that were less and those that, heaven help them, were higher.
 
Obedeli said:
OK, since everyone is ignoring me, I will post the stats. You folks can bicker all day long about USMLE vs Complex ...

I wonder what the 'p' would stand for all the people who keep calling COMLEX, complex?
 
bababuey said:
dude, im seriously gonna call you on this one.........
I have heard about this DO that matched into Hopkins like ten millions times. I swear this guy must be the most famous DO in the world, because anytime there is this type of MD vs DO discussion, some DO will say "I know this DO that matched into Hopkins Anesthesia!!" Of course there is the other guy who matched into some allo ortho program... and then the other guy who matched into a decent allo radiology program and then of course there is you who matched at the Maryland EM program. The fact is these types of matches are pretty rare from DO's....its kinda misleading to make an argument using examples that are not the norm, but are the exceptions. And if you say that great matches like the ones you listed are not rare take a look at the match lists. Match list from DO schools are not so great, especially if you compare them to MD schools. Please dont flame me for this previous statement... its just the cold hard truth!

Oh and your comments about the USLMEs not being important for matching into good residencies is BS... Im sorry it really is BS... you can quote me specific examples where it may have not mattered, but again, these examples are not representative of the majority.


Fair enough. Replying to your suggestions with anectodes doesn't gel with the new era of evidence based residency acceptance studies. It is important to consider, Baba, that DO match results are skewed precisely because they go through two entirely different programs. Just chew on this for a moment: Before the NRMP becomes combined, DOs applying to allopathic residencies are AUTOMATICALLY dropped from the NRMP once they tentatively match to an AOA internship. I'm not contesting the point that DO match rates in ACGME programs may be lower than that of their DO counterparts, but an understanding of match stats is INCOMPLETE without correcting for the amount of DOs who are dropped.

Its also true that when my school, NSUCOM boasts a high match rate, they are talking about the percentage of graduating seniors who successfully match with one of their top three programs, both DO and MD. Anyway, my previous post simply underscores the point that hard working DOs cannot complain about prejudice or unfair selection bias when applying to certain ACGME residencies. With regard to the field of emergency medicine, many program directors are quite familiar with COMLEX scores and do not mandate nor encourage the taking of the USMLE. The current president of ACEP, the nation's largest professional emergency physician advocate group, is an osteopathic physician. This has some serious implications for DOs seeking to apply to ACGME EM programs: the strides that DOs have made in the field of emergency medicine directly translate into virtually equal opportunity.

To conclude, I did indeed rely on personal examples to illustrate my point about excellent post-grad ACGME training opportunities for DOs. It seems that residency program directors and academic clinicians place a significant amount of emphasis on the entire candidate as opposed to USMLE scores. While I do not doubt that some prominent ACGME institutions won't consider DOs without a COMLEX score, this obstacle is easily overcome with hard work, excellent grades, and good performance on an audition rotation. I don't feel that you are out to "bash" or "flame" DOs in anyway. It is at least possible, however, that you are the slightest bit uninformed when it comes to the perspective of an ACGME osteopathic applicant. Do not think for one moment that I entered the NRMP with only, "I know this guy who matched into Hopkins anesthesia!" to back up my application. THe road to residency, as you are aware, begins early in your residency career. A successful match is contingent upon lots of luck, strategy, research, and conversations with current residents and program directors. Your attitude about DO applicants is becoming more of a rarity. Everytime I rotated at a venerable allopathic institution, I'd put the hard questions directly to the program directors and people in charge. Again, emergency medicine residency directors are extremely willing to look beyond these standardized markers of basic competence.
 
😛
pushinepi2 said:
Fair enough. Replying to your suggestions with anectodes doesn't gel with the new era of evidence based residency acceptance studies. It is important to consider, Baba, that DO match results are skewed precisely because they go through two entirely different programs. Just chew on this for a moment: Before the NRMP becomes combined, DOs applying to allopathic residencies are AUTOMATICALLY dropped from the NRMP once they tentatively match to an AOA internship. I'm not contesting the point that DO match rates in ACGME programs may be lower than that of their DO counterparts, but an understanding of match stats is INCOMPLETE without correcting for the amount of DOs who are dropped.

Its also true that when my school, NSUCOM boasts a high match rate, they are talking about the percentage of graduating seniors who successfully match with one of their top three programs, both DO and MD. Anyway, my previous post simply underscores the point that hard working DOs cannot complain about prejudice or unfair selection bias when applying to certain ACGME residencies. With regard to the field of emergency medicine, many program directors are quite familiar with COMLEX scores and do not mandate nor encourage the taking of the USMLE. The current president of ACEP, the nation's largest professional emergency physician advocate group, is an osteopathic physician. This has some serious implications for DOs seeking to apply to ACGME EM programs: the strides that DOs have made in the field of emergency medicine directly translate into virtually equal opportunity.

To conclude, I did indeed rely on personal examples to illustrate my point about excellent post-grad ACGME training opportunities for DOs. It seems that residency program directors and academic clinicians place a significant amount of emphasis on the entire candidate as opposed to USMLE scores. While I do not doubt that some prominent ACGME institutions won't consider DOs without a COMLEX score, this obstacle is easily overcome with hard work, excellent grades, and good performance on an audition rotation. I don't feel that you are out to "bash" or "flame" DOs in anyway. It is at least possible, however, that you are the slightest bit uninformed when it comes to the perspective of an ACGME osteopathic applicant. Do not think for one moment that I entered the NRMP with only, "I know this guy who matched into Hopkins anesthesia!" to back up my application. THe road to residency, as you are aware, begins early in your residency career. A successful match is contingent upon lots of luck, strategy, research, and conversations with current residents and program directors. Your attitude about DO applicants is becoming more of a rarity. Everytime I rotated at a venerable allopathic institution, I'd put the hard questions directly to the program directors and people in charge. Again, emergency medicine residency directors are extremely willing to look beyond these standardized markers of basic competence.


yea what that guy said
 
Obedeli said:
OK, since everyone is ignoring me

Figured someone better pay attention to him or he'll copy and paste that post again.

Personally, I think DO's are inferior to MD's and the osteopathic profession should be discontinued. After seeing match statistics and board score pass rates... well, I think the writing is on the wall, folks.
 
automaton said:
while i think the whole "DO philosophy" is still a bunch of baloney, the "treat the whole person" thing a false distinction (with an unfair portrayal of allopathy), OMM no better than chiropractic, and don't buy the idea that most people went to DO by choice, that doesn't mean i wouldn't want a competent DO to be my physician. i'd rather have a competent and considerate DO/IMG/NP than an incompetent top 10 grad. and if i had to choose between identically competent physicians, one of which is a DO, the other an MD, it'd be a coin flip. i'd stay away from FP though, unless i was thirsty and the soda machine only takes exact change. sorry, got to get these jokes out of my system before my family rotation.
r u a DO or MD?? just curious if you are a DO or DO student with those views. comparing OMM to chiro?? not to sure about that.
 
pushinepi2 said:
Fair enough. Replying to your suggestions with anectodes doesn't gel with the new era of evidence based residency acceptance studies. It is important to consider, Baba, that DO match results are skewed precisely because they go through two entirely different programs. Just chew on this for a moment: Before the NRMP becomes combined, DOs applying to allopathic residencies are AUTOMATICALLY dropped from the NRMP once they tentatively match to an AOA internship. I'm not contesting the point that DO match rates in ACGME programs may be lower than that of their DO counterparts, but an understanding of match stats is INCOMPLETE without correcting for the amount of DOs who are dropped.

Before everyone jumps on a well articulated but grossly INCOMPLETE response, maybe you should actually look at the source.

Incomplete... Hmmm. Incomplete.... WELL pushinepi if you actually looked at the source you will see that it INCLUDED the amount of osteo students withdrawn! 17.8 % if you want to be exact. 😉

That still left 29.6% of senior osteopath students with a depressing email on black monday. "You did not match."
 
velocypedalist said:
if the DO is qualified to be my colleague why would I care what letters follow his name?

This is the view I get from every doctor I talk to. You may get a different view from younger all-knowing recent grads.
 
Fenrezz said:
Personally, I think DO's are inferior to MD's and the osteopathic profession should be discontinued. After seeing match statistics and board score pass rates... well, I think the writing is on the wall, folks.

My point exactly. Hope your boss someday isn't a DO.
 
Obedeli said:
Before everyone jumps on a well articulated but grossly INCOMPLETE response, maybe you should actually look at the source.

Incomplete... Hmmm. Incomplete.... WELL pushinepi if you actually looked at the source you will see that it INCLUDED the amount of osteo students withdrawn! 17.8 % if you want to be exact. 😉

That still left 29.6% of senior osteopath students with a depressing email on black monday. "You did not match."

Incomplete it is then. Give me moment to collect my thoughts; everytime I look at Ventdependent's avatar or read his responses, I've got to recover from convulsive fits of laughter. NIH grands for pine scented undergarments ? Maybe that's the secret to the tomorrow's era of osteopathic centered research!

For the last time, I made no attempt to refute the NRMP's stats. I simply wanted to put them in proper context. Let's assume DO students consistently underperform their MD counterparts with regard to USMLE steps I and II. Include the withdrawn DO applicants and still the higher unmatched rate stares us DOs in the face on 'black Monday.'

The points articulated in my previous post are nevertheless valid. First, osteopathic students are not coached to take the USMLE! Until this past year, the number of questions on USMLE vs. COMLEX differ as does the method of examination. The NBoME just moved to computerized testing. Furthermore, the focus of the exam is slightly different. OMM is integrated into approximately 30% of COMLEX questions. The COMLEX blueprint, it would seem, is more interested in assessing the integration of data, osteopathic and traditional, rather than pure basic science facts. Critics would reply that OMM knowledge is either an excuse or a way for DOs to artifically inflate their scores. Like it or not, osteoapthic physicians must demonstrate at least a rudimentary understanding of physical medicine principles to pass all three examination stepsIts also interesting to note how the scores virtually parallel each other in the Step III section. Finally, the use of USMLE scores as a bechmark for clinical excellence is by no means a well established litmus test. To truly address the question of equivalence (with regard to board performance), MDs and DOs should take the same licensing examinations. In the future, such tests would permit PDs and statistics junkies to more directly compare osteopathic to allopathic graduates.

Referring back to the original post, the "MD view of DOs," I don't think its fair to say that discussions of USMLE vs. COMLEX characterizes anyone's perspective. DO schools often recruit an entirely different type of student. I'm not ashamed to say that I was rejected from the University of Florida three times in a row. At the time of application, I was working as a full time firefighter / paramedic. I didn't have the time to spend on an MCAT prep course and was enrolled post-bacc to complete requirements in Biochemistry and Physics lab. And yes, I did bring the ambulance to school a time or two. My cumulative GPA was around 3.7, science 3.3 or so, and my MCAT was average. When I talked to the admissions coordinator about my chances during re-application, she advised me to quit my job and pursue post-grad study. This course was absolutely unacceptable for me, but it also reiterated the point that top medical schools (MD ones especially) focus on the numbers. To be fair, it could also have been that applicants to UF are absolute super geniuses capable of juggling a full time career, doctoral thesis, and volunteer hours at the local homeless shelter. When I interviewed there, I sat between a PharmD and a PhD candidate in chemistry. Interpret the above anectode however you like; I was most certainly a non traditional applicant. My story is not at all unique, however. Many classmates of mine have former lives as RNs, EMT-Ps, PTs, DC's, and physician assistants. DO school admissions committees place a higher premium an prior experience and are interested in looking at the bigger picture inclusive of board scores. MD school admissions committees labeled me as an underperformer and an average applicant. DO schools, however, saw something a little different. See where I'm going with this ? Scores, GPAs, match stats.. they are all part of a larger perspective. Is it true that my rejection from allopathic school solidified my place as a mediocre student ? Was my average MCAT score predictive of underachievement in medical school? Absolutely not. People choose the DO route for a variety of reasons. As for myself, I really wanted to become a physician. Other students buy into the rhetoric of a, 'whole person' approach to medicine. Still others value the tradition of providing primary care to underserved populations. These motivators result in the matriculation of a different demographic. The average age of DO school applicants is ,or was, older when compared to their allopathic counterparts. A significant number of osteopathic students have had prior experience in the health care field. The end result is the graduation of a complete physician. NBME and NBOME numbers aside, osteopathic students are lucky enough to enjoy the same opportunities for post graduate training as their MD colleagues. Even if we agree 100% with your logic, the only sacrifice is that DO students MAY have to work a little harder to secure a competitive spot.

So, we're left with the cold hard facts of underperformance on the USMLE. I'm fine with that and have no intention of undertaking an exhaustive research project to put those scores in perspective. As long as residency program directors and faculty understand the value of DO education and continue to recruit and select top osteopathic students, the collegial relationship between the two types of physicians will continue.

That said, I'm looking forward to precepting superior allopathic students on rotation at Shock/Trauma. I can dazzle them with such marvelous anectodes as, "My DO friend is over at Hopkins!"
 
pushinepi2 said:
First, osteopathic students are not coached to take the USMLE!

The COMLEX blueprint, it would seem, is more interested in assessing the integration of data, osteopathic and traditional, rather than pure basic science facts.
only the lower ranked allopathic schools tend to overtly teach for the boards. my school is adamant that it does not. in fact we learn a bunch of management stuff that never shows up on the boards. but still, on average we do much better than the national average.

the USMLE is all about integration of data as well.

making excuses isn't going to win any favor. allopaths will only see DO as equal if they play their game with just as much success. i.e. matching at the same residency, getting the same USMLE scores.
 
automaton said:
...making excuses isn't going to win any favor. allopaths will only see DO as equal if they play their game with just as much success. i.e. matching at the same residency, getting the same USMLE scores....

No. Allopaths see DOs as equal because they go to MEDICAL school and complete a minimum of three years in a post-graduate RESIDENCY. Time spent in clinical rotations and practice will bear this point out. And besides, the perception of equality matters little simply because both professionals enjoy an unrestricted license to practice medicine. Perhaps you can offer this point of view up to an osteopathic physician who sits on the selection committee of your future residency? Ask him or her about his board scores and see if his/her peers consider him an equal.

Finally, your tired logic does little to explain the presence of non USMLE taking DOs in many of this nation's prestigious training programs. Considering the dearth of DO applicants to ACGME programs (when compared to MD applicants), the very presence of DOs at (name your institution) flies in the face of your argument.
 
dude you need to relax. i said DOs get respect as equal colleagues from MD if they achieve the same level of success. i don't know why you're so defensive or hostile. i have nothing but good things to say about the DOs that i've learned from. i only mention USMLE scores as an objective test that all allopaths go through. fact of the matter is that consistent underperformance on this test doesn't help perception. i'm not saying i'm going to check on an attending's board score. like i said i care more about where someone is at than where they've been. lord knows i don't have the greatest CV either.

your contention that perception means little is kind of funny considering the topic of this thread is about MD PERCEPTION OF DO. if it matters so little then why are you getting all worked up about it by coming in here, interrupting a discussion about MD perceptions and saying it doesn't matter?

i hope you find happiness in your life.
 
I have had it with pharm rep computer gadgets. Seroquel now my XanxaxXR mouse has bit it. They suck!

Pushinepi
I don't know where we disagree. I have never brough up the USMLE or complex into any of my discussions. The reason is because they do not necessarily correlate with match success. All I am pointing out is a falsehood I used to propagate... that is, DO or MD it doesn't matter. This is true in practice and in working together which in the grander scheme is MOST important. But, in the bastard process called the match, DO grads have a disadvantage (American FMGs even more so). That is not to say that "all" or "most" but many (29.6% in 2004) do. That's it. I am not saying it is right or that it should be that way. As far as I am concerned, it shouldn't be this way.

Having gone through the match, I don't want to blow sunshine up people's butts (pardon the crude top gun reference) on how it doesn't matter what type of training you come from. This is bullcrap and something we do to be polite! Where you come from does matter to different extents. I would also go on to say that those from lower end allo schools are at a disadvantage to the bigger schools. I was in that boat but got a high end match anyway. Nonetheless, having a bigger school behind my name would have certainly opened more doors. That's what I am talking about. Opened vs. closed doors.
 
So...why dont we hear this more?

Trust me, Im not asking anyone for equality, cause deep down, I pretty much know who the better choice is.

I think that part of the problem with our profession is a lack of confidence...everybody wants to be considered equal...Hell, plenty of my classmates can doctor circles around plenty of residents, and I would be totally at ease letting them manage my medical condition, or that of my family. Let's fight for better, for a change, rather than equal. Maybe we can improve our self-esteem while helping bring up the lower tier students.

Peace.
 
Idiopathic said:
So...why dont we hear this more?

Trust me, Im not asking anyone for equality, cause deep down, I pretty much know who the better choice is.

I think that part of the problem with our profession is a lack of confidence...everybody wants to be considered equal...Hell, plenty of my classmates can doctor circles around plenty of residents, and I would be totally at ease letting them manage my medical condition, or that of my family. Let's fight for better, for a change, rather than equal. Maybe we can improve our self-esteem while helping bring up the lower tier students.

Peace.
i think the reason why people are looking for "equal" rather than "different/better" is because of the emphasis on DOs doing the same thing as MDs. it seems that pre-DO applicants tend to highlight the outdated differences like the so-called "the DO philosophy" of treating the whole person, emphasis on primary care, OMM, etc. but by the time for residency application, fellowships, or academic placement, the new mantra advocates equivalence, equality, and similarities. i.e. "DOs can match into orthopedics, publish, teach, and do all the other things that MDs do"

in my personal view, i think the differences are mostly smoke and mirrors. i think you'd be hard pressed to find any osteopathic medical school that has significantly more "treat the person not the disease" training than my allopathic medical school. conversely it would be tough to argue that the quality of DO training is worse than at MD schools, since virtually the same things are taught.

there is no way i'm going to say that i'm better than a DO just because i'm in an MD program. i'm sure there are plenty of 3rd year DO students with far superior training, higher MCAT scores, and higher USMLE scores. idiopathic is just one example. my clinical knowledge is barely a speck compared to that of DOs that have completed residency and seen countless patients. but i'm not going to be politically correct and pretend that DO schools don't function primarily (though not solely) as backups to MD schools - and the only way it can ever be "better" is by being different, which is really isn't. thus the desire to be "equal".
 
automaton said:
...dude you need to relax...your contention that perception means little is kind of funny considering the topic of this thread is about MD PERCEPTION OF DO. if it matters so little then why are you getting all worked up about it by coming in here, interrupting a discussion about MD perceptions and saying it doesn't matter?

i hope you find happiness in your life.

Perhaps I should have first said, "thanks" prior to barging in on the allopathic forum. These lines are sort of invisible here on the SDN, as I'm sure you've aware. Pre-meds are on the post-grad forum, pathologists butt in on radiologists and so on. The reason why I've, "interrupted" is that perceptions are not formed in a vaccum. Just as, "osteopathic hospitals" don't bar MDs from seeking privileges, it should be well within my right (and the realm of appropriateness) to comment on interesting discussions.

Anyway its a given that perception can mean little and define reality all at the same time! The only thing we, (as subjective, fallable, and impressionable) humans can do is try to interpret facts within a relevant context. To place NBME stats on the forum without any commentary and then generalize about a DO's future potential does injustice to competitive osteopathic graduates. Furthermore, less informed invididuals can use that information as fodder for their assertions that DO schools should be strictly considered as a, "second option." And since we're talking about MD perception of DOs, that is a valid concern precisely because I was previously encouraged to apply to caribbean schools instead of stateside DO institutions. My first encounter with the pre-med advisor at UF was in 1994, so it is at least possible that attitudes have changed in the intervening 10+ years!
 
Arsenic810 said:
dude, who would name their exam "COMPLEX"? :laugh:

LOL talk about brain fart. My bad. COMLEX. Whoops :laugh: :laugh:

Well, aside from adding a P to the test name, my argument about COMPLEX versus USMLEP (ill try and even it out...) is still valid.

And honestly, I didnt used to be this sour on this issue. In fact, I couldnt have cared less. But, I just kept hearing the "we treat the whole patient" bullcrap one too many times that I finally decided Im not going to take it.

In any case, all the anecdotes about everyone is equal (Harvard= Carribbean) and "I know a DO at Hopkins" aside, the stats regarding USMLE and match rates are all that we got. Everything else is pretty much bias... so just evaluate the statistics based on what they are.

Or, just listen to what a bunch of random anonymous internet messageboard posters with vested interests in their positions think. Your choice.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
And honestly, I didnt used to be this sour on this issue. In fact, I couldnt have cared less. But, I just kept hearing the "we treat the whole patient" bullcrap one too many times that I finally decided Im not going to take it.

Somehow I doubt a lot of the newer generation of DO's still believe in this "treating the patient, not the symptoms" propaganda. Any competent, caring doctor should be able to do this.

Still, there was no need for you to refute that point by bringing USMLE statistics into this thread. Had you better expressed yourself, maybe you would have received some kinder responses. Your attack on the profession, by asserting that all osteopathic doctors are inferior based on USMLE testing, only serves to further aggravate the tension that already exists between (some) MD's and DO's.
 
DO schools are easier to get into, so some people view DO as less than MD. Personally, I'd never go to a DO, but that doesn't mean that they're any less effective. Also, DO schools teach more alternative medicine, which is a personal preference. If I went to a doctor and he suggested that I chew on a root, I'd dump him.
 
gary5 said:
If I went to a doctor and he suggested that I chew on a root, I'd dump him.

Really? I'm going to tell all my patients that!!! 🙄

I never had one "alternative medicine" course in my four years as a DO student. OMT isn't exactly "alternative medicine."
 
DOtobe said:
Really? I'm going to tell all my patients that!!! 🙄

I never had one "alternative medicine" course in my four years as a DO student. OMT isn't exactly "alternative medicine."
in contrast, my allopathic school shoved alternative medicine down our throats. we had to read about randomized controlled trials about them, discuss ethical cases concerning them (e.g. cupping), and had to shadow an alternative medicine provider for half a day. i know very few people that liked this experience, but unfortunately, being familiar with the random crap that patients do to themselves isn't not entirely irrelevant these days.
 
gary5 said:
DO schools are easier to get into, so some people view DO as less than MD. Personally, I'd never go to a DO, but that doesn't mean that they're any less effective. Also, DO schools teach more alternative medicine, which is a personal preference. If I went to a doctor and he suggested that I chew on a root, I'd dump him.

Well then, I'll stay away from the root-chewing advice. I always knew that sticking with crystals to release energy cysts would increase my credibility. Thanks for the information.
 
bababuey said:
dude, im seriously gonna call you on this one.........
I have heard about this DO that matched into Hopkins like ten millions times. I swear this guy must be the most famous DO in the world, because anytime there is this type of MD vs DO discussion, some DO will say "I know this DO that matched into Hopkins Anesthesia!!"

I think you're right, except for this year he brought three friends!!

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/anesthesiology/Education/Match_result06.html
 
I find it a bit funny that first and second year students have such strong opinions about all this. I would be interested to see if their opinions change - or if they simply don't have the time to care in a couple of years.

I also think the MD/DO debate is something that gets stirred up because all the hot shots in highschool - then - college find themselves getting their asses kicked like everyone else when they enter medical school. But, hey, I guess we all have to feel we are better than SOMEBODY at times.

My frustration from this comes from the fact that people are spending so much time on this. MD/DO...whatever... We are ON THE SAME TEAM! We fight for patients, we are trying to fight for liability reform - people - there are so many more things to worry about. Don't you all have exams to study for? (ME? Big-time senior-itis....only 4 days in the CCU and 1 call night left!)

If any of you haven't experienced the "clinical" world to any extent - still in the first two years, or are a premed - whatever....one thing you will be dumbfounded to see is the total lack of professional respect physicians have for one another. MDs bash on MDs, DOs bash on DOs...Internists bash on FPs...ER docs don't think FPs have a place in the ER.....it goes on and on. MD vs DO may still exist - but that isn't the subject you'll see the majority of the comments about.

Our internal medicine program has 2 fellows in the hem/onc department at the state university. The attendings up here can call down there ANY time for suggestions or to bounce ideas off the fellows OR the attendings. It's an MD fellowship, but our 2 fellows are DOs. You know what - it's NO BIG DEAL that they are DOs. There is an MD infectious guy that is totally cool. Even the students here can call him when we have a serious patient just to make sure we have the patient "covered". We are a small hospital with an awesome vascular surgeon (a DO) that gets referrals from the state U and from another big hospital.....It simply doesn't matter. My point is that we are going to need eachother someday. Burning bridges and shooting ourselves in the foot over stupid stuff like this doesn't progress anyone's profession.

Keep in mind "you can't shake hands with a clentched fist". We are all getting our butts kicked for the same goal. Most of our intentions are good, so we need to stop behaving like children over this topic. Nobody breezes thru medical school and residency (okay, so dermatologists do..haha..just kidding). It's just like any other thing in life - you are a person before you are gay/straight, black/white/asian/etc, MD/DO....

Just my thoughts..
 
Double Elle - ditto. first insightful post in this thread.
 
Someone needs to kill this thread and put it out of it's misery.
 
bababuey said:
Always sooo quick to point out the few good matches... that is my point, its misleading. Now care to look at the rest of the match lists???

Hmm...I was just pointing out that whoever was doubting the "one DO who allegedly matched Hopkins anesthesiology" could see the ones who did. Also there were three more last year. Not saying it translates to success at all schools or in all fields, but there are several DO's at Hopkins anesthesiology.
 
bababuey said:
Always sooo quick to point out the few good matches... that is my point, its misleading. Now care to look at the rest of the match lists???

Always so quick to point out the negatives...

On another note, what is wrong with the rest of the match lists? Seriously, it is true that maybe not all of the DO's entering extremely competitive fieds are doing so through the NRMP match, but you cannot dismiss the fact that DO grads can and do match into specialties such as radiology, orthopedic surgery, and the likes.

As far as the majority of the match lists go, as you know, approximately 60% of DO's enter primary care oriented specialties; this is fairly expected, considering it is the objective of nearly all osteopathic medical schools. The rest of the 40% are distributed throughout every field you could possibly imagine; it seems apparent that some specialties, such as anesthesiology and PM&R, tend to openly take DO's. Allopathic general surgery can potentially be a hurdle, but it can be overcome. If you take a look at some of the match lists, you will see that many of the graduates do enter well-known university-based programs.

Aside from all this, I still don't understand what the point of your posts are anymore. If you know all of these facts about osteopathic medicine and the various related statistics, would you not have enough common sense to realize that osteopathic students/physicians do as well?
 
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