MD view of the DO?

[medstyle]

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of course DO's will never have the same prestige. Even if they learn similar things, it is way easier to get into DO school. I doubt that many MD's really care about who has or hasn't a DO, but if they were so equal, would any MD equally accept a DO instead of MD?

On the east coast, no one is like "congrats, you got into DO school!". It is a safety, by virtue of lower numbers. Have I respect for DO's. Of course. We should respect all people, from engineers, to nurses and PA's, for making choices that are best for themselves and doing a good job. But how many of your parents would be as excited if you were going to DO school?

I hate this "DO's are better clinicians" argument too. When does having less book smarts make you better at something? Thats like saying minorites are better docs than white bread rich kids because they "grew up the hard way". Most of the character traits you need to be a good doctor are inborn characteristics, nothing that NOVA is gonna teach you when you're already 22. If residencies directors look at the whole package, I am sure MD's are still better. Otherwise, the DO's better watch out for the carribean kids.

The old "book smart and common sense dumb" argument is pretty lame. Smart people are better at professional jobs than dumb people. That's it. You have to be insecure to argue otherwise. There are always people smarter than us, it doesn't negate who are or what we have accomplished. DO's are not dumb, but they are not going to be as smart on average as an MD. That's it. When the admission stats are the same, I'll say they are as smart. Its the same between Harvard Med and temple. End of the day, the Harvard kids on average will be brighter. Nothing to be ashamed of, thats the way it is.

At the end of the day, getting a DO is easier, and that stigma will not change until it is equally as difficult to get a DO.

It is nice reading all the PC stuff though. But to address the OP's point, I would say DO's will have a stigma compared to MD's and anyone who knows there is a difference. Thats where going to carribean is better, because very rarely you ask one where he went to med school, but of course you will knwo if a collegue is an MD or DO. That's the way it is.

 

[medstyle]

double posted.

 

[bababuey]

On another note, what is wrong with the rest of the match lists? Seriously, it is true that maybe not all of the DO's entering extremely competitive fieds are doing so through the NRMP match, but you cannot dismiss the fact that DO grads can and do match into specialties such as radiology, orthopedic surgery, and the likes.

As far as the majority of the match lists go, as you know, approximately 60% of DO's enter primary care oriented specialties; this is fairly expected, considering it is the objective of nearly all osteopathic medical schools. The rest of the 40% are distributed throughout every field you could possibly imagine; it seems apparent that some specialties, such as anesthesiology and PM&R, tend to openly take DO's. Allopathic general surgery can potentially be a hurdle, but it can be overcome. If you take a look at some of the match lists, you will see that many of the graduates do enter well-known university-based programs.

Aside from all this, I still don't understand what the point of your posts are anymore. If you know all of these facts about osteopathic medicine and the various related statistics, would you not have enough common sense to realize that osteopathic students/physicians do as well?

I dont know why i even keep talking to you. You are obviously biased in your views of the match lists for DO's. Can you seriously claim that DO's do as well in the match as you state in your last sentence? Just look at the match lists!!! And you have the audacity to question my common sense???

Look... im not saying DOs dont match into surg specialties, rads, plastics, Derm, etc, etc. Yes, yes... if you work hard enough anyone can match into these, even DO's. I heard this one million times and i agree... However you cant refute the fact that there are very few DOs that do end up matching into these fields. I wont even comment on why i think this is the case because i know we have to be "P.C." in this forum. Nevertheless i think no one can really disagree that the DO match lists pale in comparison to the MD match lists. Anyone with two eyes and half a brain should be able to see this.

and please when you reply, please direct your rebuttal to things i have said in my posts only...


Here are links to match lists so you can seen them again... let me knwo if you still think the same after you view them again.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=175626

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=187352

 

[crys20]

med, are you a pre-med?

yeah, that's what i thought. 🙂

please refer to my brilliant Hb analogy for baseline intelligence necessary to be a good clinician. competent is competent and i will very well choose a DO school over an MD one for location and because both will get me to my ultimate goal.

 

[Echinoidea]

For all of the supposed altruism that a medical career involves, there is still an enormous amount of posturing, dick-swinging, and pissing contests between physicians and their egos. Medical students are no exception. I'm a DO student, and I'm proud to be one. In my anecdotal experience, the DOs I shadowed were more friendly, happy, and easy to be around than the MDs. Does that extrapolate to every clinician? No, of course not, but when posters like medstyle write us a wonderful thesis on prestige and the osteopathic profession, well then, that kind of reinforces my view. So keep your prestige. I'm not in medicine for the prestige. If I was, I would have applied to allopathic schools.

Yes, it is true that DOs do not match as well. For all of your pre-meds, this is a fact. I know there are some residency programs that simply will not consider me as an applicant. It's just a fact of life, and one you need to be aware of when applying to an osteopathic school. But I'm not interested in a super-competitive speciality, and there are far, far more residencies which have DOs as residents than there are that actively discriminate. Bottom line is that if you want to be a sub-specialist, go to an MD school.

Yes, there can be a stigma, mainly with old, gray haired conservative doctors who trained in the 50s and 60s, and also among allopathic pre-meds and MS1s & MS2s. The people who will hold a stigma are generally a$$holes overall anyway, so who cares?

One advantage to going to an osteopathic school is that, while we may not all be the geniuses, I can honestly say there is not one single obnoxious pretentious gunner jerk in my class. So I'm satisfied with that.

 

[medstyle]

Oh, i guess having an awareness of facts makes you a gunner.

For the Hb comparison, better is better. This is not Hb. And I don't think the differences between the intelligence of the average DO and MD are this close. I am sorry, i do not. Its not a predjudice, I am basing it on the same criteria I was deemed not worthy to go to some top schools. I didn't make the cut to go harvard, DO's can't make the cut to go to MD school, by and large.

Look, even a nurse is a good "clinician", if by clinician you mean someone who can work with people effectively. A doctor needs to be able to perform to the highest standard. If your doctor misses something, that's it. You go home and the problem will remain until it gets worse, then either you die or go back with a more serious problem. A doctor is sort of like a healthcare judge. I demand that our judges have a better sense of morality than the average person, and I demand our physicians have a better sense healthcare understanding. Medicine requires a great deal of intelligence. You can't make up for it by being "down to earth" or "not a gunner". I rather have a the most anal gunner on earth treating my problems then the this cool doc who can't perform the same level professionally.

And for people that say osteopaths are just too interesting to cram for the MCAT and get a 33, thats a joke. A person who is committed to medicine will do whatever it takes to get into school. If i couldn't balance soccer practice or ER volunteering with studying, you're either too stupid or not committed enough to go to MD school. That's it. Most MD students balanced a full life to get into med school, and those that didn't worked damn hard to get in. Either way, thats better than "Taking the hard class and getting a B".

Anyway, i don't want to argue this. There is nothing to argue. He wanted to know the perception of DO's vs. MD's. Clearly, the perception is not of equality. Clearly, the numbers tell different stories. Now, if you do not have any faith in common perception, admission statistics, or match rates, there is nothing I can offer you to tell you one is better than the other. You could run a survey of all the people in the USA to better understand perception. or you could consider running a study where the same patients are treated by MD's and DO's and see who correctly diagnosed what.

or you could just accept the facts that because it is easier to get into DO school, the perception of DO's is that they are not as capable as MD's. In addition, public recognition of DO's is lower. Because of those reasons, there is a loss of prestige. The loss is warranted on average, but there will be exceptions of course, including some MD's that are idiots.

Given the choice between being a doctor + having prestige vs. being a doctor, I would take the former. If i could not have an MD, i would be more than happy to be a DO.

 

[bababuey]

med, are you a pre-med?

yeah, that's what i thought. 🙂

please refer to my brilliant Hb analogy for baseline intelligence necessary to be a good clinician. competent is competent and i will very well choose a DO school over an MD one for location and because both will get me to my ultimate goal.

You are a pre-med too fool. haha

 

[double elle]

When the match list for KCOM came out, I was very surprised at all the people who matched to allopathic residencies - not because they weren't qualified (hell, I have no idea who is qualified!), but because of the DO traditional internship and the "benefits" that go along with it (another topic...). Anyway, I asked my IM attending about this and he mentioned that more DOs are getting the spots now because after 9-11 it's harder for FMGs to come to the country. Is there any truth to this?? (I'm not making a fact-statement, I am asking if it's true...please don't flame!)

Also, I think the DO/MD "who is the better clinician" thing is crap. Sure, we learn the palpatory DO skills and the OMM stuff - but so many of us are so completely sick of by the time 4th year rolls around....we look at the patient, examine, or labs, review them, respond appropriately (hopefully). How is this better/worse/different than an MD? I get so sick of the idealistic DO students out there thinking the world revolves around how we received special training in palpation that will actually help us clinically. Honestly, I think that takes place - maybe - 5% of the time. It has it's place in certain diseases, but certainly doesn't have a place in others. Perhaps I should have gone to an MD school - but I already lived where there is a DO school and my husband makes a killin' at his job. So, I applied to 1 place and got in. I am happy with my education, but I am also a realist....I have never, personally, been faced with being treated differently because I went to a DO school, but I am sure it will happen sometime. Being defensive and going on the offensive isn't the answer. Just do your job and show everyone how talented you are. And PLEASE don't go into things with SOMETHING TO PROVE - it makes you look foolish.

Also - I'm not sure of statistics, but primary care is certainly encourage in the DO world...but specializing isn't discouraged. I think that the fact that many DO students are older and medicine is often a 2nd career for them is a facter in the heavy primary care match. Older students often have families and thus, choosing a specialty is a decision that influences more than just the student.

I feel the same way about this debate that I do about most controversial topics that people feel strongly about. It seems that people DRAW attention to the perceived flaw and then find themselves defending/explaining that flaw.
When, in reality - YOU WERE THE ONLY ONE WHO HAD THE ISSUE until you had to begin attention seeking and thus FORCE others to comment or give their opinions that you knew you wouldn't agree with. Thus - an argument results. (An example of this is a lit class I took in undergrad. I was a graduating senior - really put this class off - and there was an 18yo college freshman in there. On about the second day, she told the class that she had just "come out" and told her parents that she was a lesbian. Okay - good for her. However, she talked about this EVERY SINGLE DAY - 2-hour class!! I got so sick of hearing about it. It was a lit class, not a therapy session. So, I finally told her that I didn't come to class talking about who I sleep with, so she shouldn't either.....thus - the defensive attitude came out and suddenly I was a homophobic. Even though this was a sensitive topic, she basically forced me to comment - not because of the topic, but because it was inappropriate to use class time for it day after day. This is what I see happening with my fellow DO students....)

The reality is that some people buy the Ford Explorer because they really like that car. And some people buy the Ford Explorer because they can't afford the Cadillac Escalade. But, both are getting an SUV.

I am not anti-DO, because I will be a DO in a couple of weeks. I'm just so tired of this debate which, even though not started by a DO student at times, gets inflamed by DO-defensiveness that totally makes us look like we really ARE sub-standard. And, to be quite honest....there are sub-standard docs from every single medical school in this country. Specializing (vs primary care) doesn't necessarily make one smarter. I know a plastics guy that I wouldn't send my dog to....but he had the brains and the references to get a plastics spot. As I said in my post earlier....it's all about the individual. The people who think DOs are inferior will probably ALWAYS think that, so you aren't going to be the one changing their minds. Who cares? (Perhaps my stand on this comes from having a 2 yo daughter and learning to pick my battles.)

All-in-all...this fight isn't one we DO students need to fight. Just do well and your individual career - and subsequently the profession - will prosper. This is obviously consuming way too much energy that every single one of us need to simply get thru rounds, or study for exams. As I stated in my other post - professionalism begins with each one of us. Also, wasn't it Mark Twin who said something about it's better to keep your mouth shut and make people wonder if you are stupid -than to open your mouth and remove all doubt....or something like that....

Have a good Sunday, everyone!

 

[double elle]

Someone needs to kill this thread and put it out of it's misery.

hey - was Richard Kimble the guy on The Fugitive?
He was a DO wasn't he!
I think Dr. Kimble is WWAAAYYY more famous than the DO hopkin's anesthesia guy. 😀

 

[DrMom]

Question has been answered & we need to avoid bashing, so I'm closing this one.