MD vs DNP

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gettheleadout said:
Real Doctor vs. Noctor

BY THE WAY: Did you know that nurses are completely equal to physicians and should not be referred to as "mid-level" or any other non-equal term providers?

http://www.aanp.org/NR/rdonlyres/5AC2D9E3-74FA-4BF2-BF2F-1E424A62E516/0/AANPMLP.pdf
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'In addition to the terms cited above, other terms that should be avoided in reference to NPs include "limited license providers", "non-physician providers", and "allied health partners". These terms are all vague and are not descriptive of NPs.' (bolding added by me)

Since "non-physician providers" is not descriptive of NPs, does that mean they are physicians? Ridiculous.
 
HBSlim said:
'In addition to the terms cited above, other terms that should be avoided in reference to NPs include "limited license providers", "non-physician providers", and "allied health partners". These terms are all vague and are not descriptive of NPs.' (bolding added by me)

Since "non-physician providers" is not descriptive of NPs, does that mean they are physicians? Ridiculous.
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Seriously. Normally this is confined to the resident forums on here and premeds don't know or care about it, but there is serious encroachment by lower-level medical providers (which is what they are; no matter how they want to spin it, they don't have equal training) on our future profession.
 
gettheleadout said:
Seriously. Normally this is confined to the resident forums on here and premeds don't know or care about it, but there is serious encroachment by lower-level medical providers (which is what they are; no matter how they want to spin it, they don't have equal training) on our future profession.
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Agreed. I do wonder if the problem is somewhat blown out of proportion though. I know multiple NPs and CRNAs who are well aware that their knowledge base and training is much lower in comparison to physicians. They have no desire to expand their duties and practice without the oversight of a physician because they don't feel adequately prepared to deal with the potential malpractice issues. I just wonder what percentage of the nursing population agrees with the vocal minority that write these kinds of articles. Hopefully a very small percent...
 
The problem is that the small number of NPs/DNPs/CRNAs who do think that they're equivalent continue to push for full independence and equivalent reimbursement. Even the (biased) research funded by the AANA, for example, doesn't support this claim of equivalence.

The funny thing is that their argument is that they'll save money...while at the same time, they demand equal reimbursement to physicians. Something doesn't add up.

It's ultimately going to be up to the malpractice lawyers to clean this up. Unfortunately, patients will get hurt along the way...
 
HBSlim said:
Agreed. I do wonder if the problem is somewhat blown out of proportion though. I know multiple NPs and CRNAs who are well aware that their knowledge base and training is much lower in comparison to physicians. They have no desire to expand their duties and practice without the oversight of a physician because they don't feel adequately prepared to deal with the potential malpractice issues. I just wonder what percentage of the nursing population agrees with the vocal minority that write these kinds of articles. Hopefully a very small percent...
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It doesn't matter if some midlevels understand their role and realize that their knowledge/experience doesn't come close to that of a physician. Their leading organizations are still fighting for full independence/equivalence, etc.

And none of this "non-vocal majority" seems to speak out against this. Hmmm...
 
Kaushik said:
It doesn't matter if some midlevels understand their role and realize that their knowledge/experience doesn't come close to that of a physician. Their leading organizations are still fighting for full independence/equivalence, etc.

And none of this "vocal majority" seems to speak out against this. Hmmm...
Click to expand...

True. That's the part that does worry me. It doesn't matter if it's only the minority that actually believes this if the majority doesn't speak up.
 
Lol my dad told me that one time a psychiatric nurse practitioner told him that he had absolutely no idea what he was doing and told him he was completely wrong with the treatments of his 7 patients.

He's a board certified child and adolescent psychiatrist and was the unit chief that she worked under.

RN's are getting really ballsy arent they

EDIT: Hundredth Post!
 
"high quality and cost-effective care equivalent to that of physicians." :meanie: I'm detecting a major inferiority complex. Physicians have a certain role and NPs have a certain role in healthcare, and neither should go beyond their boundaries. The role of an NP is not to diagnose & treat. They have no where near the amount of medical knowledge that a physician has.
 
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Kaushik said:
It doesn't matter if some midlevels understand their role and realize that their knowledge/experience doesn't come close to that of a physician. Their leading organizations are still fighting for full independence/equivalence, etc.
Click to expand...
My solution to this is have them all take the USMLE. You want to be fully equivalent to a licensed medical physician? Pass our test. :meanie:
Kaushik said:
The problem is that the small number of NPs/DNPs/CRNAs who do think that they're equivalent continue to push for full independence and equivalent reimbursement. Even the (biased) research funded by the AANA, for example, doesn't support this claim of equivalence.

The funny thing is that their argument is that they'll save money...while at the same time, they demand equal reimbursement to physicians. Something doesn't add up.

It's ultimately going to be up to the malpractice lawyers to clean this up. Unfortunately, patients will get hurt along the way...
Click to expand...
Lol seriously...and yeah it sucks that the public is going to take the hit if that finally happens.
Political said:
EDIT: Hundredth Post!
Click to expand...
Congrats Senior Member! 😀
 
gettheleadout said:
My solution to this is have them all take the USMLE. You want to be fully equivalent to a licensed medical physician? Pass our test. :meanie:
Click to expand...
The USMLE is necessary, but not sufficient, for becoming a physician.

As a side-note, the DNPs at Columbia (who are considered the cream-of-the-crop DNPs) had a 50% fail rate on a severely watered-down version of Step 3, which, from what I understand, most interns don't even study for. As the saying goes "Two months for Step 1, two weeks for Step 2, and bring a number 2 pencil for Step 3." That tells you how well-trained in medicine the DNPs are...
 
HBSlim said:
True. That's the part that does worry me. It doesn't matter if it's only the minority that actually believes this if the majority doesn't speak up.
Click to expand...

It is tough to speak out as a nurse. You are labelled as this and that and basically have little credibility. Fortunately, I never had any credibility to begin with, but some working environments could become intolerable for nurses who speak out. The nursing world can be a difficult and political place and it is understandable to a point to have people who want to pay the bills and send their kids to school without rocking the boat. Then, you have to consider physicians. Is a physician going to back a nurse up when said nurse speaks out against their own? Anecdote alert, but I was having a conversation the other day with some nurses about this very topic and clearly was not making friends. Several physicians walked by and not a single word in spite of a couple looking right at me...

I am lucky because my primary working environment is not nursing dominated and I am among like minded people when it comes to nurses gone wild. Clearly, I have no idea where nursing as a whole stands on the issue. Unfortunately, the people that matter are for it and continue to push an agenda, so it is somewhat irrelevant in that regard.
 
I just find it interesting how nursing has developed its own ladder that no one else can be a part of without being a nurse. I sure wish I had my own route to be a CRPA (pharmacist anesthetist) that can act like an anesthesiologist but somehow not go to med school. Maybe I could be a Pharmacy Practitioner...that way I can diagnose patients and prescribe medication without going to medical school. Must be sweet.
 
Kaushik said:
The USMLE is necessary, but not sufficient, for becoming a physician.

As a side-note, the DNPs at Columbia (who are considered the cream-of-the-crop DNPs) had a 50% fail rate on a severely watered-down version of Step 3, which, from what I understand, most interns don't even study for. As the saying goes "Two months for Step 1, two weeks for Step 2, and bring a number 2 pencil for Step 3." That tells you how well-trained in medicine the DNPs are...
Click to expand...
Yes I recall seeing that in one of the links in Taurus' sig... I agree they should have to demonstrate much more as well. If you want to be a physician, no one is stopping you. If you work as a nurse first, you are all the more encouraged to pursue medicine, but you shouldn't get to find some backdoor way into "equal" credentials, when your curriculum is vastly different.
 
gettheleadout said:
Yes I recall seeing that in one of the links in Taurus' sig... I agree they should have to demonstrate much more as well. If you want to be a physician, no one is stopping you. If you work as a nurse first, you are all the more encouraged to pursue medicine, but you shouldn't get to find some backdoor way into "equal" credentials, when your curriculum is vastly different.
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Agreed.

Especially when the majority of their courses are fluff like nursing theory, etc. They receive a fraction of the basic science training physicians do. And most schools require between 500 and 1000 clinical hours in order to graduate. A 3rd year medical student gets more clinical hours of training by about a quarter of the way through 3rd year...Would you trust a newly-minted M4, who has substantially greater basic science and clinical training, to independently take care of you? If not, it doesn't make any sense for people to trust in NPs/DNPs either.
 
I figured I would chime in on this because it is completely ridiculous. DNP?:laugh:

My undergrad institution is huge on nursing. You know how most people in your intro bio classes want to go pre-med? Well with me it was all nursing. Being as I work with some of the nursing students (workstudy) they are constantly whining about how HARD their pharmacology classes are etc etc. This doesn't annoy me so bad but what gets to me is their CONSTANT critique of the doctors here. They know I'm a pre-med and having shadowed more than my fair share of hours, I have come to understand alot of obstacles MD's face. However, these nursing students constantly say a doctor is unintelligent and narrow minded and have actually said they could treat patients better. 👎 When I challenge them on the issue they get very hostile.
To me it seems like the issue here is one of two things:
1. Inferiority complex (most likely)
2. underestimating the knowledge, dedication, perserverance, skill, and pressure it takes to be a physician.

A couple of them actually started the arguement with me the other day that getting into nursing was much harder than medical school.....👎thumbdown👎........i didn't involve myself in such idiocity. Granted nurses, medical assistants, PA's, MD's all have their place. But like stated above, don't cross the boundries your license permits you too. Also, don't be critical of something you don't understand. This is clearly what the "DNP" thing is about....they are misinformed.
 
You know, I'm almost to the point where I want to say "F it, you want to be a doctor via a nursing route and want to be "equilivant," fine go for it. Get you're own malpractice insurance, but if it's something any family med or internal med physician worth his or her salt could treat, then you treat it. Sink or swim, kid, and if the pool is too deep, remember, you filled it.

If patients suffer adverse outcomes, then the noctors won't have anyone to turn to but themselves, just like the way they want it.
 
Kaushik said:
The problem is that the small number of NPs/DNPs/CRNAs who do think that they're equivalent continue to push for full independence and equivalent reimbursement. Even the (biased) research funded by the AANA, for example, doesn't support this claim of equivalence.

The funny thing is that their argument is that they'll save money...while at the same time, they demand equal reimbursement to physicians. Something doesn't add up.

It's ultimately going to be up to the malpractice lawyers to clean this up. Unfortunately, patients will get hurt along the way...
Click to expand...

I went to nurse midwifery school for a semester, and I got into trouble for calling nurse midwives mid-level practitioners during orientation. I wasn't trying to be offensive or anything. I thought that I was using the correct term. I got my head chewed off.

For nurse midwives (at least the ones that head FSMFN) think that they are equal to physicians, and that is why they are not mid-level providers. They believe in equal reimbursement, and they are on a mission to achieve more control. They were very clear and open about their plans. They do not like physicians. They feel that physicians are hurting mothers and babies through unnecessary C-sections and the like. Nurse midwives are adamant that their care of patients is vastly superior to that of an OB/GYN.

At least from my experience, I can say that nurse midwifery is a joke at the school that I had went to. We were using the same pathophysiology book that we used in undergrad. Our papers were done in groups of two's and three's. WTF? Group papers? My group members couldn't even write at a college level. It was scary. DNP school, other than some additional clinical hours, is nothing more than fluff. You will learn nursing theory and take some community nursing courses.
 
"I'm going to punch you in the pterion" I don't think I've laughed like that in a while

Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk
 
StudyShy said:
I went to nurse midwifery school for a semester, and I got into trouble for calling nurse midwives mid-level practitioners during orientation. I wasn't trying to be offensive or anything. I thought that I was using the correct term. I got my head chewed off.

For nurse midwives (at least the ones that head FSMFN) think that they are equal to physicians, and that is why they are not mid-level providers. They believe in equal reimbursement, and they are on a mission to achieve more control. They were very clear and open about their plans. They do not like physicians. They feel that physicians are hurting mothers and babies through unnecessary C-sections and the like. Nurse midwives are adamant that their care of patients is vastly superior to that of an OB/GYN.

At least from my experience, I can say that nurse midwifery is a joke at the school that I had went to. We were using the same pathophysiology book that we used in undergrad. Our papers were done in groups of two's and three's. WTF? Group papers? My group members couldn't even write at a college level. It was scary. DNP school, other than some additional clinical hours, is nothing more than fluff. You will learn nursing theory and take some community nursing courses.
Click to expand...

Frightening all around. As someone who's been "there" and is now going to medical school, your opinion is so valuable! Unfortunately, I think your experience is slowly becoming the norm rather than the exception - with regard to attitude and standards.
 
StudyShy said:
At least from my experience, I can say that nurse midwifery is a joke at the school that I had went to. We were using the same pathophysiology book that we used in undergrad. Our papers were done in groups of two's and three's. WTF? Group papers? My group members couldn't even write at a college level. It was scary. DNP school, other than some additional clinical hours, is nothing more than fluff. You will learn nursing theory and take some community nursing courses.
Click to expand...

At the BSN level... I went to undergrad that had a nursing school that was apparently pretty good. I took a micro course (200 level) my senior year (long story, but I needed lab credits, and that's the only course I could fit into my schedule). First day of class, our professor stands up in the front of the room and apologizes to all the biology majors. He says we'll all ace the course without much trouble. Apparently he had originally had it as a somewhat difficult biology course, but the nursing students, who were required to take the same micro course according to some licensing thing, were failing it left and right. So he dumbed down the course for the nursing students that made up the majority of the class.

My opinion of nursing education dropped to the floor when I heard that. I know a lot of really great nurses (and had several friends in undergrad that are going the nursing route), but seriously, if you can't pass a micro course at the college level, you probably shouldn't be in nursing.
 
mvenus929 said:
At the BSN level... I went to undergrad that had a nursing school that was apparently pretty good. I took a micro course (200 level) my senior year (long story, but I needed lab credits, and that's the only course I could fit into my schedule). First day of class, our professor stands up in the front of the room and apologizes to all the biology majors. He says we'll all ace the course without much trouble. Apparently he had originally had it as a somewhat difficult biology course, but the nursing students, who were required to take the same micro course according to some licensing thing, were failing it left and right. So he dumbed down the course for the nursing students that made up the majority of the class.

My opinion of nursing education dropped to the floor when I heard that. I know a lot of really great nurses (and had several friends in undergrad that are going the nursing route), but seriously, if you can't pass a micro course at the college level, you probably shouldn't be in nursing.
Click to expand...

Oh, snap, no you di'int!
 
gettheleadout said:
Real Doctor vs. Noctor

BY THE WAY: Did you know that nurses are completely equal to physicians and should not be referred to as "mid-level" or any other non-equal term providers?

http://www.aanp.org/NR/rdonlyres/5AC2D9E3-74FA-4BF2-BF2F-1E424A62E516/0/AANPMLP.pdf
Click to expand...


But where can I go if I want more information or to look at the cited "sources"???

Oh that's right, they put it at the bottom of the article, silly me.

1. AANP (2007). Nurse practitioner cost-effectiveness. Austin, TX: AANP.
2. AANP (2007). Quality of nurse practitioner practice. Austin, TX: AANP.
For more information, visit www.aanp.org

Wait, where do I go again?
 
How about just calling them nurses, what ever happened to that? Pharmacists didn't start calling themselves anything but, after transition from BSc to Pharm.D., their profession didn't change just bcos of advanced training. If u want to advertise ur degree then by all means add it as a suffix. AANP how about "Nurse, DNP/MSN" has that crossed ur mind yet? That's the most accurate and specific title for NPs and It differentiates between MSN and DNP prepared NPs.... Or is this really about muddying the waters between physicians n nurses and deluding the public n policymakers?

Where's da effing AMA n its DO equivalent pushing back against this nonsense, how is it that nursing advocacy groups are much more effective than their physician counterparts. AANP knows one thing, if u repeat something enough times, it becomes gospel truth, remember WMDs? B4 we know it, the public will believe doctors n nurses r equivalent n interchangeable!
 
Bernoull said:
How about just calling them nurses, what ever happened to that? Pharmacists didn't start calling themselves anything but, after transition from BSc to Pharm.D., their profession didn't change just bcos of advanced training. If u want to advertise ur degree then by all means add it as a suffix. AANP how about "Nurse, DNP/MSN" has that crossed ur mind yet? That's the most accurate and specific title for NPs and It differentiates between MSN and DNP prepared NPs.... Or is this really about muddying the waters between physicians n nurses and deluding the public n policymakers?

Where's da effing AMA n its DO equivalent pushing back against this nonsense, how is it that nursing advocacy groups are much more effective than their physician counterparts. AANP knows one thing, if u repeat something enough times, it becomes gospel truth, remember WMDs? B4 we know it, the public will believe doctors n nurses r equivalent n interchangeable!
Click to expand...

I really like the term "nocter." :laugh:
 
Bernoull said:
How about just calling them nurses, what ever happened to that? Pharmacists didn't start calling themselves anything but, after transition from BSc to Pharm.D., their profession didn't change just bcos of advanced training. If u want to advertise ur degree then by all means add it as a suffix. AANP how about "Nurse, DNP/MSN" has that crossed ur mind yet? That's the most accurate and specific title for NPs and It differentiates between MSN and DNP prepared NPs.... Or is this really about muddying the waters between physicians n nurses and deluding the public n policymakers?

Where's da effing AMA n its DO equivalent pushing back against this nonsense, how is it that nursing advocacy groups are much more effective than their physician counterparts. AANP knows one thing, if u repeat something enough times, it becomes gospel truth, remember WMDs? B4 we know it, the public will believe doctors n nurses r equivalent n interchangeable!
Click to expand...
It is completely about deluding the public and policymakers. It is a totally unethical and abusive movement with scant regard for the safety of patients, fueled by selfishness and greed. It should be the shame of the whole nursing profession and is an insult to philosophy of medicine.
 
Eh, I think nurses could stand to have SOME prescriptive power. I work at a pre-school and one of my kids had a small cut that was obviously infected (it was green and pulsating) so we sent her to the school nurse. Turns out the nurse couldn't even give the kid antiseptic ointment. The child washed her hand and was given a band-aid. Not every case of diagnosis and treatment should require an MD or DO.

On the flip side, have you heard that DCs have been granted the power to prescribe and administer a goodly number of drugs in New Mexico? That kinda scares me. I know they're not all subluxations all the time any more but dude, come on, I'd take a nurse over a pseudoscientist any day.
 
vivalavie said:
Eh, I think nurses could stand to have SOME prescriptive power. I work at a pre-school and one of my kids had a small cut that was obviously infected (it was green and pulsating) so we sent her to the school nurse. Turns out the nurse couldn't even give the kid antiseptic ointment. The child washed her hand and was given a band-aid. Not every case of diagnosis and treatment should require an MD or DO.

On the flip side, have you heard that DCs have been granted the power to prescribe and administer a goodly number of drugs in New Mexico? That kinda scares me. I know they're not all subluxations all the time any more but dude, come on, I'd take a nurse over a pseudoscientist any day.
Click to expand...

Sometimes it is a bit ridiculous with OTC things such as Bacitracin and Tylenol.
 
muhali3 said:
The role of an NP is not to diagnose & treat. They have no where near the amount of medical knowledge that a physician has.
Click to expand...

I work with NPs at the health center on campus, and I would 100% trust them to diagnose and treat minor illnesses, which are most of the ones that come in the the health center (cough, cold, etc.). They themselves know when a patient needs to be referred to the physician.
 
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