MD vs. DO

[clumpymold]

Originally posted by meanderson
Ok...think about it. Is your goal to practice medicine, or to attend an allopathic school? If your goal is to practice medicine, then you can do that as a DO. If your goal is to attend an allopathic school, then you can't. It's really that simple.

If you don't want to ever use OMT or whatever it is when you leave DO school, then don't!! Many DO's who are in practice don't.

I think that's a good question to be asking oneself. I think most everybody should be asking this themselves. For me, I'm not 100% sure. All I know is that I would like to help people with immune deficiences as well as, if possible, do some research on finding a cure or even easing treatments. I also would like to help diagnose & treat myself as well as my brother for our condition. I assume both fields do that, or no?

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[clumpymold]

Oh, and moderators, do you think you could change the subject of this thread to read MD vs. DO (instead of OD)? It's really embarrasing.

Thank you...

Oh, I've already changed the subject but it didn't change into the top line.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Originally posted by meanderson
2) "limit your ability"? I don't know.......I don't want to get into a semantics game, but it certainly "decreases your chances". Suppose two candidates wants to match into a quality(but not top 20) allopathic urology program. Both have honors in their rotations, good usmle scores, and solid but not spectactular LOR's from attendings. A Case Western student is going to have a much better chance at matching than a NYCOM student. Take a second and go to the websites for higher end allopathic derm, ent, ortho, and optho programs. You'll notice that not only are virtually all their residents from allopathic schools(a much higher rate than the % of allopathic students vs. osteo students), most of them are from top 20 allopathic schools.

I don't believe this is the case, and I think you're missing the whole point of the lower incoming DO student stats. There have been at least 50 studies that have shown a high correlation between MCAT/GPA and USMLE Step I scores. There have also been a few studies showing a correlation between verbal reasoning scores and writing sample scores and clinical performance. 93% of MD students pass the USMLE on their first shot; of DOs students who take the USMLE (this is generally done by the best DO students who want to match into a competitive allopathic specialty), only 70% pass on the first shot. To put it another way, four times as many self-selected DOs fail Step I as compared to their MD counterparts. The point is, this theoretical, "Both have honors in their rotations, good usmle scores, and solid but not spectactular LOR's from attendings" occurs infrequently.

For those DOs who truly just had a bad time undergrad, had to find themselves, or whatever, and then excel in med school, get a great USMLE, do some research, get good clinical grades, they should NOT be at a disadvantage to their MD counterparts. And, frankly, I don't think they particularly are. However, when you're dealing with students who are on average, nearly 1 standard deviation below their allopathic classmates, the number of such equally qualified DOs is, quite simply, low, which is why you get a lower number matching into "high-numbers-required" allopathic residencies.

They're just weaker students, and medicine, like it or not, rewards academic prowess. Go argue with residency directors that sustained academic excellence as manifested by numbers isn't one component of being a good physician.

 

[Freeeedom!]

Hey meanderson...sorry bro...sometymes I spll thingies with the rong word users.


Spllying has lttle to doo with rzdency, only humin dood.


I am telling you son, I HAVE BEEN ON THE MATCH COMMITTEE, I know how we pick residents, school doesn't factor all that high...certainly lower than personal interview and audition rotation. I hope you are not betting on passing on your school name there junior!!

Matching into allopathic residencies has more to do with 1. pathology found at larger institution, 2. didactics 3. comfort of "fit" 4. happiness of residents 5. city/location 6. benefit package....osteopathic residencies have zero to do with osteopathic philosophy. I chose osteopathic education, while choosing allopathic residency. I still practice OMT, just on the nurses in the ED and not too often on my patients!

meanderson, don't argue about residency with me.
but you may argeuuu aboot me spellin.


Watchfulknowitall,
while I took both the USMLE and COMLEX exams, I can make this observation. The COMLEX is taken for graduation and licensure...the USMLE (if you choose to report) is often times taken to "see what you'll get" and NOT with the same urgency. Furthermore, it is often times taken after or directly prior to the COMLEX as a COMLEX warm up. Oftentimes the scores are afterthoughts. It really is a bad strategy, but honestly COMLEX takes precedence. I did great on my USMLE steps, but I know many who did n't care primarily because they didn't necessarily have to...COMLEX counted.

 

[NRAI2001]

This is ur brain. This is your brain on drugs (look below).

Originally posted by sandg
MD vs. OD

Drugs are bad, docs are good.

 

[dave262]

Uh...How bout this argument folks. When you are applying for jobs, who do you think the old school MD's (who practiced medicine back in the day when there WAS a difference between DOs and MDs) are going to hire to their practice....

The money is better on the MD side folks. Thats the only difference



..........now please bring on the flak about "but i know this one DO and he makes $xxxxxxxxxxx so your wrong you evil bastard"

I know. There are exceptions.

I dont mean to flame either, I have much love for my friends who are at North Texas COM.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

It's as easy as this folks: TO EACH HIS OWN

What right does anybody have to tell people what to do? Nobody is better than anybody else. It is what makes YOU happy. You cannot tell a janitor, librarian, nurse, teacher or ANYBODY what is best. That person chose to do what makes them happy - and I respect everybody for that. People, you are going to be future doctors, you need to be open minded. If someone wants to be an MD, awesome! If people want to be a DO, awesome! If they want to be a diver, cleaning the bottom of people boats, awesome! It's all good, nobody is better than anybody else - especially based on their profession.

 

[wholehealth]

For me personally, I chose DO because I plan on milking the philosophy for all it is worth. I have been practicing alternative medicine for years, and there is such a demand for physicians who are open to less invasive/more natural treatments...and sometimes it even works! The American public, especially high class Americans are onto health food, yoga, massage, accupuncture, etc.... This demand in main stream culture is growing by the day. People want something different, even if they don't understand what it is. I see medicine not only as a way to help others, but you also have to look at it as a business and what you are doing with your life. Alternative medicine is where it's headed, folks, and being able to offer both puts you at a huge advantage. Just a glimpse into what I see as an advantage of being a DO...it is different especially if you truly embrace the difference. Plus, I like to have fun, so numbers don't mean so much to me. I could be very competitive if I wanted to be, but instead I have an awesome family life, and a healthy outlook on my future. Don't get caught up in stigmas. Stigmas are for the closed minded.

 

[NRAI2001]

Originally posted by wholehealth
For me personally, I chose DO because I plan on milking the philosophy for all it is worth. I have been practicing alternative medicine for years, and there is such a demand for physicians who are open to less invasive/more natural treatments...and sometimes it even works! The American public, especially high class Americans are onto health food, yoga, massage, accupuncture, etc.... This demand in main stream culture is growing by the day. People want something different, even if they don't understand what it is. I see medicine not only as a way to help others, but you also have to look at it as a business and what you are doing with your life. Alternative medicine is where it's headed, folks, and being able to offer both puts you at a huge advantage. Just a glimpse into what I see as an advantage of being a DO...it is different especially if you truly embrace the difference. Plus, I like to have fun, so numbers don't mean so much to me. I could be very competitive if I wanted to be, but instead I have an awesome family life, and a healthy outlook on my future. Don't get caught up in stigmas. Stigmas are for the closed minded.

"I have been practicing alternative medicine for years, and there is such a demand for physicians who are open to less invasive/more natural treatments...and sometimes it even works!"

Does it actually work sometimes? Doesn't seem like u believe much in the DO philosophy urself.

 

[clumpymold]

Originally posted by NRAI2001
"I have been practicing alternative medicine for years, and there is such a demand for physicians who are open to less invasive/more natural treatments...and sometimes it even works!"

Does it actually work sometimes? Doesn't seem like u believe much in the DO philosophy urself.

Haha, I was thinking the same thing. SOMETIMES it even works? As if it normally doesn't?

 

[NDESTRUKT]

man...this thread started out as an innocent question and it just became really stupid.

they always end up stupid...the bottom line is what kind of physician you become is not a product of what school you go to - it's what kind of person you are.

 

[clumpymold]

Originally posted by NDESTRUKT
the bottom line is what kind of physician you become is not a product of what school you go to - it's what kind of person you are.

I think that's key.

Unless you have a specific reason as to WHY you are choosing MD over DO (or vice versa), then it really doesn't matter what school you go to if your intention is to help people.

I guess that's sorta why I don't care which MD school I attend. It does, however, matter that it's an MD school (for reasons I stated earlier).

 

[Freeeedom!]

Originally posted by dave262
Uh...How bout this argument folks. When you are applying for jobs, who do you think the old school MD's (who practiced medicine back in the day when there WAS a difference between DOs and MDs) are going to hire to their practice....

The money is better on the MD side folks. Thats the only difference



Nope...jobs are 1. based upon demand/need 2. Residency is a bigger factor in academic hiring o/w it doesn't matter. Residency always matters more.

 

[LP1CW]

Why? Why? I've looked at this post a few times, but I haven't jumped in because we've beat this to death so many times before. It's really done.


DO = Doctor
MD = Doctor

I believe, now having been through this process, that Osteopathic schools do look for non-traditional, older, and interesting people. I also think they look for people that are likely to practice primary care, but coming of any medical school you can, if you want and work hard at it, obtain any specialty.

Generally, MD programs with the exception of the few we can all name, usually focus more on numbers. But the truth is: we're doing the same work. It's the same job. And it's about the patients. Some of us will be great doctors or subpar doctors based on who we are and not on the degree we have.

I vote to end these debates. We already know the answers. And why continue to belittle others. I know, I know, I've been mean spirited at times, but I think we just focus on supporting each other, encouraging each other. So, for that, I apologize for the times I've been a jerk.

 

[NRAI2001]

If in residency is where u learn most of your patient care and about practicing medicine, aren't DO and MD the same exact thing? Of course DO's learn a few extra things in MD school, but talking to a lot of my friends in med school who are now doing residencies they don't remember a lot of things that they learned in med school. They learned most of the things that they need in their residency programms.

 

[Freeeedom!]

Exactly right.
There simply is very little difference, except I also practice OMT. Some DO's don't remember OMT well, and do not practice it.

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by NRAI2001
If in residency is where u learn most of your patient care and about practicing medicine, aren't DO and MD the same exact thing?

Yup, or you wouldn't see this D.O. doing his Anesthesia residency at Johns Hopkins.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/anesthesiology/Resid_applic/Match_Results.html

 

[clumpymold]

Hmmm, it seems now that you guys are saying that DOs study EVERYTHING an MD studies and MORE.

Is that true?

 

[wholehealth]

I was being a bit sarcastic as most do not believe in it. Although, sometimes it doesn't work and that is why western medicine is needed. I just believe that we should try non-invasive techniques first instead of last. I guess you have to be careful on these postings or you get ripped apart. Did you even read the rest of my post? I definitely believe in the philosophy, and have been practicing structural integration/myofascial release for over seven years now, and have helped people who have gotten nothing from their MD's except prescription pain pills. Masking the pain instead of getting to the root? I am actually not one who is so left winged that I can't see the benefits of using medicine, in fact, I have so many MD friends who tried to talk me out of osteopathic medicine to no avail because of my beliefs in manipulation. Is that better for you???

 

[clumpymold]

Originally posted by wholehealth
I was being a bit sarcastic as most do not believe in it. Although, sometimes it doesn't work and that is why western medicine is needed. I just believe that we should try non-invasive techniques first instead of last. I guess you have to be careful on these postings or you get ripped apart. Did you even read the rest of my post? I definitely believe in the philosophy, and have been practicing structural integration/myofascial release for over seven years now, and have helped people who have gotten nothing from their MD's except prescription pain pills. Masking the pain instead of getting to the root? I am actually not one who is so left winged that I can't see the benefits of using medicine, in fact, I have so many MD friends who tried to talk me out of osteopathic medicine to no avail because of my beliefs in manipulation. Is that better for you???

Is this question directed to me? Not really sure if it answered it or not.

I see your logic behind treatment, however. Can you give me an example of how you would recommend treating someone with, say, a cold? I'm just curious as to how it would differ from an MD's treatment.

I actually saw Fight Club the other day. There's this scene where Edward Norton is seeing a doctor for insomnia. In the end, the doctor recommends sleep and some other herb of some sort. So do DOs utilize herbs and the like?

 

[wholehealth]

I don't think that an osteopathic doctor would treat a cold differently than an MD. However, naturopathic medicine would use herbs, supplements, hydrotherapy, accupuncture, etc. My love for the DO philosophy stems from being able to offer my patients physical medicine/OMM. I will definitely use some integrative modalities in my practice as well. I was not really trying to debate that DO's do more or less, or different treatments than MD's, just that I personally chose DO because I am less interested in research and more interested in physical medicine. The op seemed like they were thinking of considering a career in osteopathic and I wanted them to know that there are some of us that intend to use OMM even though it seems that most don't. that's all...

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by clumpymold
Hmmm, it seems now that you guys are saying that DOs study EVERYTHING an MD studies and MORE.

Is that true?

From what I know the osteopathic education would be slanted more towards generalist primary care skills while the allopathic education would be slanted more towards scientific analysis useful for specialists and research. There is lots of overlap but there is definitely an emphasis. But either education does not preclude a change in direction after achieving the degree!

 

[group_theory]

Originally posted by clumpymold
Can you give me an example of how you would recommend treating someone with, say, a cold? I'm just curious as to how it would differ from an MD's treatment.

For a cold, standard treatment - with maybe some manipulation to help clear the sinuses (if needed but i think it is rarely done).

Where learning OMT is helpful - have you ever gardened and stood up but your back seem to have "given out"? Or worked out at the gym, to discover the next day that you have reduced range of motion (and also lots of pain/stiffness)? Or driving in a car, turning around to get something from the backseat and when you turn back, your back feels stuck in that position? Or slept on the couch and now your neck is stiff with restricted motion and pain? Or finish a 12+ hr work shift and find several muscles very very tense? Or have you ever experience the feeling that something is slightly out of place (ribs maybe) and it is giving you pain/weird sense of motion? (note: I am not implying that MDs can't treat the above situations, I'm just giving situations where OMT can be used)

Would OMT be used in every situation? No!!!!! It's not like we're learning "Oh, he has an acute MI - quick, let's do costal counterstrain followed by some myofascial release". OMT is only used when indicated

Group_theory
Have no idea what I'm talking about

 

[DSM]

I have a question......answer this to yourself honestly....If you removed the degree from the end of the Doctor's name could you tell the difference in a DO and a MD?

The tag reads Dr. soandso

How would you know the difference?

 

[Shodddy18]

Whatever the reason people go to a DO school...


Q: Are MDs more likely to get more competitive residencies?

A: Yes

Q: Does this mean that DOs can not get competitive residencies

A: NO

Q: Does this mean that MDs learn more in med school

A: Not by a long shot

Q: Does this mean that MDs are better physicians

A: Not by a long shot

Q: Is there anything an MD can do that a DO can not?

A: NO


Why is it that so many people going to medical school have to act like this. Yes, medicine is a competitive field. But why do people constantly feel like they have to flaunt that their grades were higher in other peoples faces.

My grades in college were pretty good. About or a little below the average for MD schools. Maybe this is reflective on my situation. I have worked almost full time (35 hours a week) while being a FULL TIME college student. I did this because I had to. Does the fact that my grades were a little lower mean that I learned less?? NO it does not. They were slightly lower because I was working full time.

I am going to an Osteopathic School. When I graduate, I will have a statistically lower chance of getting a competitive residency. Does this mean that I will not be a good physician? No it does not. I am a hard worker, and will carry myself up the ladder, not let the name of my school, and the initials I sign after my name carry me. In the end, I think this will make me a better physician. Not all, but many of my friends who attend Osteopathic schools come from similar backgrounds and situations.

But never mind all of this. If it makes you feel better about yourself to gloat and belittle all of the lowly DO s, go ahead. I know that my future patients would rather have a hard working, good physician, who graduated from a less competitive school and had to prove himself, than one who stands behind his more expensive diploma.

 

[subtlewonder]

The funny thing about the whole debate about MDs vs DOs is that its all created by us future doctors....I have never turned on the television or heard people in everyday society arguing about whether their doctor is an MD or DO...most people refer to themselves as a being pediatricians or surgeons, etc. I've worked in hospitals and both MDs and DOs respect each other. The bottom line is that if you have good grades and don't think you would like OMT at all, then become an MD. If you are interested in the idea that certain manipulations could help relieve pain for your patients and would like to provide that service, than consider becoming a DO, irregardless of your how high your GPA is. If your grades are not competitive enough to gain acceptance into an MD program and you will become depressed and suicidal if you get a DO training instead, then ask yourself what your real motivations are for becoming a physician in the first place. Because its certainly not about showing off or being superior to others.

 

[DrNE1]

Originally posted by meanderson
Would students at Howard have gone to Hopkins if they could have? I'm guessing.......YES!! Just like students that go to osteopathic school would have preferred going to their state allpathic school. Of course a small % of each group would rather go to Howard or a DO school, but please don't try and argue that most DO students didn't even consider applying to allopathic schools or gave up acceptances at allopathic schools. A few do, but most don't.

Also, let's talk averages instead of isolate a few schools. You can't compare PCOM's or KCOM's scores to Howard. If you want to compare those schools relative to allopathic schools, do so to Columbia and WashU. Note how DO advocates never mention some of the DO schools that have a few mcat averages around 21 or so. And neither do allopathic students, because they don't represent the average osteopathic matriculant. Yet on every thread comparing allopathic vs. osteopathic admissions standards, the same 5% of allopathic schools are mentioned. I'm sure you realize that these schools have mission statements that cater to a very small group of applicants(either URM or geographic) and don't represent the average allopathic matriculant.

Someone mentioned drexel not having a better match list than osteopathic schools. This isn't true. It isn't even close to true. Compare NYCOM's match list(which was rated by some DO students as being extraordinary last year) to Drexel and it isn't particularly close. A ton of anesth. in NYCOM's match list, but that's only a moderately competitive field, and furthermore the program list didn't include a lot of top programs. Look at the IM matches at an allopathic lower tier private like Drexel and NYMC and then compare to an IM match list for osteopathic schools.....it's not close.

I'm not trying to encourage anyone to wait a year if you get rejected from allopathic schools rather than go osteopathic. That's something that only each applicant can decide. But the propaganda put forth by osteopathic advocates is similar to that put forth by carribean advocates, with the exception of OMT principles:

1) You'll be a physician with full practice rights
2) There is a chance you will get a moderately competitive residency if you work hard

Note that I would VASTLY prefer going to an osteopathic school than SGU, but if you work hard either way you will become a physician. Same as with osteopathic vs. allopathic schools. But I'm not going to argue that osteopaths are just as competitive in the match as allopathic graduates, just like I'm not going to argue that I'm going to be just as competitive coming from whichever allopathic school I pick as a similarly qualified candidate from Hopkins. It just doesn't work that way......

You are extraordinarily persuasive. Wonderful arguments. Be careful when you talk about URMs though. There is far more at work here than weaker numbers. You run the risk of alienating even WASPs like me.

 

[lealf-ye]

MD vs DO round #1567533556

 

[OzDDS]

http://www.anaesthesia.uwa.edu.au/employment/info.html Read what it says at the bottom regarding FMGs. This could be one of the downsides to DO I think, if you wanted to do fellowships or training outside the US. sucks

 

[EvoDevo]

http://www.anaesthesia.uwa.edu.au/employment/info.html Read what it says at the bottom regarding FMGs. This could be one of the downsides to DO I think, if you wanted to do fellowships or training outside the US. sucks

#@!!% Tired of this debate. Way to bump a dead and buried thread. Do't do it again. You have been warned.