MD vs M.B., B.S/BMBS

[Hypochondriac]

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Listen up, for those who don't believe MD is simply an undergrad degree, I'm gonna piss you off now:

go to:
http://www.library.utoronto.ca/medicine/educational_programs/undergrad.html

The University of Toronto (Canada) offers the MD degree program. The med school calls its MD program "UNDERGRADUATE MEDICINE PROGRAM"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MD = MBBS, as I was told by many many physicians who work in a hospital where I'm a volunteer. Let me ask those of you who think MD is superior to MBBS:

1) Are you already a doctor? If not, do you think you know better than the physicians with whom I know well from my volunteer work?
2) I suggest you go outside of N. America and widen your horizon. Travel more and don't just stay in the American cocoon.

 

[Hypochondriac]

GIVE ME FIVE, GUYS!

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by Hypochondriac
GIVE ME FIVE, GUYS!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

P.s. are you canadian??

 

[Hypochondriac]

For U of Toronto medicine, the average GPA of those applicants who get an interview offer is a bloody 3.8 on a 4.0 scale! One of the most competitive program in North America.

Even they call the MD program an UNDERGRADUATE MEDICINE PROGRAM! LOL

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by Hypochondriac
For U of Toronto medicine, the average GPA of those applicants who get an interview offer is a bloody 3.8 on a 4.0 scale! One of the most competitive program in North America.

Even they call the MD program an UNDERGRADUATE MEDICINE PROGRAM! LOL

Screw U of T...they think they're too good for everybody 🙂

I'd take McMasters any day.

 

[1996]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
Hahahahah!! that's good. At our school we also have a 6 month compulsory research requirement...but we're only an MBBS...so maybe the research isn't that sternous.

I don't think I ever said that US med grads are MDs because we do more research. It is simply an observation of mine that ON AVERAGE (note: I bolded these words in my other post as well) a US med student probably has more research experience than does a non-US med student. This is solely because of the difference in educational and admission system. While most students in other countries go to med school straight out of high school with their public exam average as the admission criteria, the admission process in the US is more subjective. Research experience during undergrad years is almost the norm for the pre-meds in order to boost their med school applications. This is simply an observation, not an excuse for the MD vs MBBS difference. In fact, I have no doubt, from my very first post on, that as long as you are fully licensed, an MBBS is a practicing physician in the US just as any other fully licensed MD.

BTW, I don't think research requirements in med school is the norm in either US or non-US med schools. In the US, only some top schools require research time or a thesis to graduate.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by 1996
I don't think I ever said that US med grads are MDs because we do more research. It is simply an observation of mine that ON AVERAGE (note: I bolded these words in my other post as well) a US med student probably has more research experience than does a non-US med student. This is solely because of the difference in educational and admission system. While most students in other countries go to med school straight out of high school with their public exam average as the admission criteria, the admission process in the US is more subjective. Research experience during undergrad years is almost the norm for the pre-meds in order to boost their med school applications. This is simply an observation, not an excuse for the MD vs MBBS difference. In fact, I have no doubt, from my very first post on, that as long as you are fully licensed, an MBBS is a practicing physician in the US just as any other fully licensed MD.

BTW, I don't think research requirements in med school is the norm in either US or non-US med schools. In the US, only some top schools require research time or a thesis to graduate.

Couple of things here..you obviously don't know about the admission requirements in other med schools:

In Australia to get in as an undergraduate it's not only about your secondary level scores you also require:

- interviews
- volunteer activities
- UMAT

There are different weights given to these items, but how is that any different to the US?

Sure research may play a bigger role in US studies, but the ppl. out of highschool don't have the 4 extra years to do it. Also what good is research in how good a clinician you will become? If you want to do research get a PhD...

 

[Hypochondriac]

Truth speaks for itself.

Can someone comment on the link I provided above? Here it is again:
http://www.library.utoronto.ca/medicine/educational_programs/undergrad.html

Anyone? anyone?

 

[Hypochondriac]

Why does the U of T med school call its MD program an undergraduate medicine program? why? for those who think an American MD is a postgraduate degree, how could you account for this?

Even the Admissions Dean said it's an undergrad degree. The reason why applicants need at least 3 years of undergrad studies b4 they apply is b/c they (and other American schools) believe that this approach would provide applicants who are more mature/ready for medical education. It's an undergrad professional degree just like engineering.

Also, American MD schools and other MBBS schools use pretty much the same texts, like Ketzung, Robbins and Guyton...etc.

 

[1996]

Originally posted by Hypochondriac
For U of Toronto medicine, the average GPA of those applicants who get an interview offer is a bloody 3.8 on a 4.0 scale! One of the most competitive program in North America.

Even they call the MD program an UNDERGRADUATE MEDICINE PROGRAM! LOL

Actually, it is clearly stated by ALL med schools in the US that the MD program is classified as "Undergraduate Medical Education." "Graduate Medical Education" on the other hand, refers to residency programs, something all of you as well as all US grads will need to apply to and finish before becoming fully-licensed (well, at least the intern year). Therefore, the Undergraduate Medical Education is the highest degree-granting program possible for US med grads. They can continue to do research and publish and such, but there is no higher-level degree for them to get. (the only exception is that they can go into basic science and get a PhD in one of the biological sciences)

That being said, the MD programs are classified by all US universities as a graduate degree program. One reason for that is you need to have an undergraduate degree in order to be eligibe for admission. You also need to complete a certain set of university-level courses and do well on the MCAT. The type of admission process is similar to, while certainly much more vigorous than, any other graduate degree programs in the US.

Therefore, I guess the confusion for some lies in the fact that US MD programs are "Undergraduate MEDICAL Education" with "Graduate Medical Education" being residencies, but they are also graduate DEGREE programs in terms of the whole post-secondary education classification system in the US.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by 1996
Actually, it is clearly stated by ALL med schools in the US that the MD program is classified as "Undergraduate Medical Education." "Graduate Medical Education" on the other hand, refers to residency programs, something all of you as well as all US grads will need to apply to and finish before becoming fully-licensed (well, at least the intern year). Therefore, the Undergraduate Medical Education is the highest degree-granting program possible for US med grads. They can continue to do research and publish and such, but there is no higher-level degree for them to get. (the only exception is that they can go into basic science and get a PhD in one of the biological sciences)

That being said, the MD programs are classified by all US universities as a graduate degree program. One reason for that is you need to have an undergraduate degree in order to be eligibe for admission. You also need to complete a certain set of university-level courses and do well on the MCAT. The type of admission process is similar to, while certainly much more vigorous than, any other graduate degree programs in the US.

Therefore, I guess the confusion for some lies in the fact that US MD programs are "Undergraduate MEDICAL Education" with "Graduate Medical Education" being residencies, but they are also graduate DEGREE programs in terms of the whole post-secondary education classification system in the US.

Again this is simply not true, you don't NEED a degree to be accepted to US medical education, you NEED a certain amount of undergraduate level courses....the only reason most people HAVE a degree is because the competition is pretty stiff...and they don't stand much chance without one.

 

[1996]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
Couple of things here..you obviously don't know about the admission requirements in other med schools:

In Australia to get in as an undergraduate it's not only about your secondary level scores you also require:

- interviews
- volunteer activities
- UMAT

There are different weights given to these items, but how is that any different to the US?

Sure research may play a bigger role in US studies, but the ppl. out of highschool don't have the 4 extra years to do it. Also what good is research in how good a clinician you will become? If you want to do research get a PhD...

Coincidentally, I am somewhat familiar with the Australian system because my cousin is a current med student in Western Australia while another friend of mine just graduated from Sydney last December. According to them, the most significant part of the admission process is the score, requiring something like a 99.2 average or something crazy like that to get in. They told me that once you hit a certain score, you are almost guaranteed admission. Then for those who just missed the score, the interview then becomes more important. They also told me that the score standard for different states (territories?) are different. Neither my friend nor my cousin did any volunteer work or research. My friend had very good score and was admitted to Sydney right away (according to her, they have the highest cut-off too). My cousin's score wasn't as high, so he didn't get his first choice in Melbourne (where he's from).

 

[redshifteffect]

Speaking of texts this Is hilarous:

Have you guys seen Basic Immunology? (By Abbas, Lichtman)

I'll take a quote from this book:

Abul K. Abbas MBBS
PROFESSOR and Chair
Department of Pathology
University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine
San Francisco, California

*Note Caps are my own doing*

This is hilarious to me because at a time when almost every Caribbean student is posting some thread about not being able to work in California and not being able to get a license..this guy can do it.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by 1996
Coincidentally, I am somewhat familiar with the Australian system because my cousin is a current med student in Western Australia while another friend of mine just graduated from Sydney last December. According to them, the most significant part of the admission process is the score, requiring something like a 99.2 average or something crazy like that to get in. They told me that once you hit a certain score, you are almost guaranteed admission. Then for those who just missed the score, the interview then becomes more important. They also told me that the score standard for different states (territories?) are different. Neither my friend nor my cousin did any volunteer work or research. My friend had very good score and was admitted to Sydney right away (according to her, they have the highest cut-off too). My cousin's score wasn't as high, so he didn't get his first choice in Melbourne (where he's from).

1) Melbourne has the highest cut off not Sydney...also I think you meant Uni of new south wales since thats the only undergrad school in sydney

2) I'm not sure about Western Australia but in some schools the UMAT is almost a third of the grading....so if you have a 99.5 but have a low UMAT it is possible you might not get in (depending on competition)
Again how is this very different to the US? If you have a high score you are almost sure to get in some place...as long as your MCATs are decent.

P.S. should point out something, when I got into accelerated med I didn't have to write the MCAT, it was mostly on marks.

 

[1996]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
Again this is simply not true, you don't NEED a degree to be accepted to US medical education, you NEED a certain amount of undergraduate level courses....the only reason most people HAVE a degree is because the competition is pretty stiff...and they don't stand much chance without one.

Most of the med schools that I applied to clearly stated that they require an undergraduate degree for admission. In fact, if you get accepted and later don't graduate from college, you can't start med school until you complete the undergraduate degree. A few of them didn't spell it out, but then they talked about "undergraduate majors" and how you don't need to major in biological sciences, but other majors will be ok, thus implying an undergrad degree of some sort is required. A few others require a minimal number of university-level credits other than stating a degree as a requirement.

On the same token, the are some non-professional graduate school programs that don't specifically state that an undergraduate degree is required for admission either. Again, from their other coursework requirements, such a requirement is implied.

So, I guess the most correct way to say it is that an undergraduate education is required prior to Med school admission. Since prior college level coursework is required, that may be ONE of the reasons why the MD program is classified as a graduate degree program in the US.

 

[redshifteffect]

You keep missing my point..I got into a US med school, didn't write the MCAT and had no undergraduate university courses. All I had to do was maintain a B average in their program (for only 2 years !!) and I was guaranteed a spot in their medical school.

So...the question is which schools did you apply to that require undergraduate degrees? The ones I applied to required nothing.

 

[1996]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
1) Melbourne has the highest cut off not Sydney...also I think you meant Uni of new south wales since thats the only undergrad school in sydney

2) I'm not sure about Western Australia but in some schools the UMAT is almost a third of the grading....so if you have a 99.5 but have a low UMAT it is possible you might not get in (depending on competition)
Again how is this very different to the US? If you have a high score you are almost sure to get in some place...as long as your MCATs are decent.

P.S. should point out something, when I got into accelerated med I didn't have to write the MCAT, it was mostly on marks.

I don't know, my family and my friend's family kept referring to her school as "Sydney U." But then we were all speaking in Chinese, so something could have been left out of the translation (since Sydney somehow is a much easier word for most Chinese than the whole "New South Wales," actually, I doubt too many in my family from home actually know that Sydney is in New South Wales anyway).

So Melbourne has the highest average. Maybe that's why my cousin couldn't get in. He's pretty happy in Perth though.

I guess admission to US med school is a little more arbitrary, in that many who have high GPAs and MCATs don't get in or get into much lower tier schools that their scores indicate. People who only have scores but no research, volunteer work, or extracurriculars are not very competitive candidates, and I have surely seen many of those not getting accepted. (But there aren't very many of those candidates anymore, given everyone pretty much knows that things like research and volunteer work are almost untold requirements)

As for your accelerated programs, of course you're not required to take the MCAT for admission. They take applicants straight from high school, and they are not expected to have taken college courses yet. Accelerated programs are definitely not the norm in the US though, since there are so few of them compared to the total number of med schools. BTW, are you sure you don't get a bachelor's degree out of this deal? From the programs that I know of, the graduates get both a bachelor's and an MD when they finish after 6 years (or 7 or 8 for some). The name of the bachelor's degree are usually something general like BS in biomedical sciences or something like that.

 

[AJM]

I think one of the reasons a lot of the American med students/premeds posting on this thread are getting so upset at the idea of an MD/MBBS being considered an undergraduate degree is due to a difference in how Bachelor degrees are viewed here in the US versus those in other countries. I think overall Bachelor degrees are much easier to obtain and more common in the US than they are, say, in the UK. In the UK, the Bachelors degree is in general much more rigorous and gets a lot more respect than a Bachelors in the US. So I agree that a US MD or an MBBS would be equivalent to a British Bachelor's degree.

Because the US Bachelor's is not so respected or rigorous, then most Americans feel that an MD or an MBBS should not be considered in the same category as a US Bachelor's degree. I don't think it's accurate to call either degree an undergraduate or a graduate degree (at least by US equivalents). Instead, the MD/MBBS are considered professional degrees, and typically rank somewhere between a US Master's degree and a US PhD in academic acheivement.

Now, like U of Toronto, US medical schools also make a differentiation between undergraduate medical education and graduate medical education. But the categories relate to the difference between medical school programs and residencies. That is, if you have not received your medical degree yet, you are in an undergraduate medical program (which, in the US, is considered different than a plain undergraduate Bachelor's program, and US universities consider them either graduate schools or advanced professional schools). When you receive your medical degree and start residency, you are then in a graduate medical program, meaning that you have graduated from medical school but are still undergoing training (but you are not going to get another degree). The terminology in US (and Canadian) medical education has slightly different meanings than in the rest of higher education, so it can lead to some confusion.

So to sum up, the University of Toronto site was using this term as a title to show that you are on the medical school web site, as opposed to their residency web site -- which would be listed as graduate medical education.

Sorry for the long post -- but I think it's difficult to have a meaningful discussion about a subject when people have a completely different frame of reference. I just wanted to clarify some of the differences I saw... 🙂

 

[1996]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
You keep missing my point..I got into a US med school, didn't write the MCAT and had no undergraduate university courses. All I had to do was maintain a B average in their program (for only 2 years !!) and I was guaranteed a spot in their medical school.

So...the question is which schools did you apply to that require undergraduate degrees? The ones I applied to required nothing.

Actually, I think you keep missing the point that accelerated programs are NOT the norm in the US. The vast majority of US med grads didn't get into med school this way. Go to the pre-allopathic forum if you want to know the intricate details of getting into med school for the vast majority of US students.

Not all accelerated programs are the same either. Some require taking the MCAT while maintaining a B average. Some only require taking certain courses and maintaining a certain grade. Some have no course requirements but a GPA requirement (like your school). Some even have a strict curriculum with designated courses throughout the 6, 7, or 8 years.

Again, these kinds of programs only exist in a small number of med schools (many of them only have a small percentage of their med school class entering through this path). This is a very non-tranditional pathway in the US.

 

[1996]

Originally posted by AJM
I think one of the reasons a lot of the American med students/premeds posting on this thread are getting so upset at the idea of an MD/MBBS being considered an undergraduate degree is due to a difference in how Bachelor degrees are viewed here in the US versus those in other countries. I think overall Bachelor degrees are much easier to obtain and more common in the US than they are, say, in the UK. In the UK, the Bachelors degree is in general much more rigorous and gets a lot more respect than a Bachelors in the US. So I agree that a US MD or an MBBS would be equivalent to a British Bachelor's degree.

Because the US Bachelor's is not so respected or rigorous, then most Americans feel that an MD or an MBBS should not be considered in the same category as a US Bachelor's degree. I don't think it's accurate to call either degree an undergraduate or a graduate degree (at least by US equivalents). Instead, the MD/MBBS are considered professional degrees, and typically rank somewhere between a US Master's degree and a US PhD in academic acheivement.

Now, like U of Toronto, US medical schools also make a differentiation between undergraduate medical education and graduate medical education. But the categories relate to the difference between medical school programs and residencies. That is, if you have not received your medical degree yet, you are in an undergraduate medical program (which, in the US, is considered different than a plain undergraduate Bachelor's program, and US universities consider them either graduate schools or advanced professional schools). When you receive your medical degree and start residency, you are then in a graduate medical program, meaning that you have graduated from medical school but are still undergoing training (but you are not going to get another degree). The terminology in US (and Canadian) medical education has slightly different meanings than in the rest of higher education, so it can lead to some confusion.

So to sum up, the University of Toronto site was using this term as a title to show that you are on the medical school web site, as opposed to their residency web site -- which would be listed as graduate medical education.

Sorry for the long post -- but I think it's difficult to have a meaningful discussion about a subject when people have a completely different frame of reference. I just wanted to clarify some of the differences I saw... 🙂

Thank you. That was exactly what I was trying convey in my numerous posts. I guess I didn't do it as eloquently though.

(However, I have to say I disagree with how less rigorous and less respected US bachelor's degrees are compared to other countries. But that's not the point of the discussion here.)

 

[AJM]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
You keep missing my point..I got into a US med school, didn't write the MCAT and had no undergraduate university courses. All I had to do was maintain a B average in their program (for only 2 years !!) and I was guaranteed a spot in their medical school.

So...the question is which schools did you apply to that require undergraduate degrees? The ones I applied to required nothing.

1996 is right -- only a small minority of medical students in the US go through medical school this way. The typical accelerated programs (of which there are only about 15 in the country, and are very small programs), are combined-degree programs, where you receive both your undergraduate (Bachelor's) and your medical degree at the same time, upon graduation from medical school. These programs are not common by any means.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by AJM
1996 is right -- only a small minority of medical students in the US go through medical school this way. The typical accelerated programs (of which there are only about 15 in the country, and are very small programs), are combined-degree programs, where you receive both your undergraduate (Bachelor's) and your medical degree at the same time, upon graduation from medical school. These programs are not common by any means.

This is no different than the program that I'm doing in Australia which is why I didn't see the big loss of not taking the US offer (that and the enourmous cost of studying in the US)...

I get an MBBS/BmedSci with my course.

- also it's been a couple of years so the details may be sketchy but from what I remember I didn't actually have to complete the degree...just 2 or 3 years. (for the US course)

- and finally there are also post graduate schools in Australia, where you have to finish your undergraduate degree and you still get an MBBS...btw they also require 1) Interviews 2) Gamsat 3) Marks

 

[AJM]

Originally posted by 1996
(However, I have to say I disagree with how less rigorous and less respected US bachelor's degrees are compared to other countries. But that's not the point of the discussion here.)

Well, much of that is based on what friends of mine who did undergraduate programs at various universities in Europe have told me. I also have a cousin from the UK who went through an undergraduate program there at the same time that I did my undergraduate (we're the same age), so we got to directly compare our experiences. I must say that his studies were way more intense/rigorous than mine were. It also sounds like it's in general more difficult to get into a university in the UK than it is here. I can't comment on countries other than the UK, though.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by AJM
Well, much of that is based on what friends of mine who did undergraduate programs at various universities in Europe have told me. I also have a cousin from the UK who went through an undergraduate program there at the same time that I did my undergraduate (we're the same age), so we got to directly compare our experiences. I must say that his studies were way more intense/rigorous than mine were. It also sounds like it's in general more difficult to get into a university in the UK than it is here. I can't comment on countries other than the UK, though.

- I'll agree to this but only on hearsay. There was an american exchange student I lived with last year and she had a 4.0 GPA...she came here and totall messed up her GPA...I think she ended up with a 55% average for the semester.

- but it's mainly because she was used to multiple choice exams which we don't really use here.

 

[1996]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
This is no different than the program that I'm doing in Australia which is why I didn't see the big loss of not taking the US offer (that and the enourmous cost of studying in the US)...

I get an MBBS/BmedSci with my course.

- also it's been a couple of years so the details may be sketchy but from what I remember I didn't actually have to complete the degree...just 2 or 3 years. (for the US course)

- and finally there are also post graduate schools in Australia, where you have to finish your undergraduate degree and you still get an MBBS...btw they also require 1) Interviews 2) Gamsat 3) Marks

But the majority of the programs are straight MBBS straight out of high school, right? It sounds like your program (getting both MBBS and BmedSci) isn't the norm is Australia either.

As for the US accelerated programs, you don't really complete the full requirements for a bachelor's degree per se. You do take undergrad courses throughout the program, and everyone who graduates will get a generic bachelor's degree out of it on top of the MD.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by 1996
But the majority of the programs are straight MBBS straight out of high school, right? It sounds like your program (getting both MBBS and BmedSci) isn't the norm is Australia either.

As for the US accelerated programs, you don't really complete the full requirements for a bachelor's degree per se. You do take undergrad courses throughout the program, and everyone who graduates will get a generic bachelor's degree out of it on top of the MD.

yeh so what's different about that than the MBBS? remember the MBBS is a 5- 6 year degree; as far as I can remember the accelerated "under grad" courses I was supposed to take weren't medically oriented at all.

Therefore Accelerated medical = MBBS

And since you still get an MD if you do it accelerated medical or not, there is nothing special about the MD

Also you say that this accelerated medical program is a small amount of ppl. but that doesn't matter even if ONE person gets it this way it undermines your whole argument that there is something special about the MD

As for your comment about the norm..I can't say anything about the other schools...melbourne might do it too. But the Post grad schools are becoming more popular only because it's pretty hard for a lot of students to get in...so they have to go the post grad route.

- actually I don't think I did get a Bachelors degree, since I was not required to complete one...if this is true then are you admitting that the US has to fudge their degrees to make it look that everyone who has and MD also had a Bachelors degree?

 

[UofA man]

Actually there are 5 schools in Australia that require you to have a degree prior to entering, and yet they grant a MBBS, therefore that is equivalent to the U.S. MD degree. Would you also say that a Canadian MD is equivalent to the U.S. MD, they both are LCME accreditted after all. But in Canada most schools will accept you after 3 years and there is a few schools that will take you after 2 years.

To me U.S. MD = MBBS

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by UofA man
Actually there are 5 schools in Australia that require you to have a degree prior to entering, and yet they grant a MBBS, therefore that is equivalent to the U.S. MD degree. Would you also say that a Canadian MD is equivalent to the U.S. MD, they both are LCME accreditted after all. But in Canada most schools will accept you after 3 years and there is a few schools that will take you after 2 years.

To me U.S. MD = MBBS

In fairness though some of these schools will take transfers and you can sometimes get in without having completed a full degree....

But that's not really different to a US school

 

[1996]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
yeh so what's different about that than the MBBS? remember the MBBS is a 5- 6 year degree; as far as I can remember the accelerated "under grad" courses I was supposed to take weren't medically oriented at all.

Therefore Accelerated medical = MBBS

And since you still get an MD if you do it accelerated medical or not, there is nothing special about the MD

Also you say that this accelerated medical program is a small amount of ppl. but that doesn't matter even if ONE person gets it this way it undermines your whole argument that there is something special about the MD

As for your comment about the norm..I can't say anything about the other schools...melbourne might do it too. But the Post grad schools are becoming more popular only because it's pretty hard for a lot of students to get in...so they have to go the post grad route.

Hmm... I don't think I ever said there is anything special about the MD. My whole argument is that it is just different systems. I was just trying to point out to both the US grads and non-US grads on this board the differences between our systems. Refer to my previous posts (or AJM's posts for the explanation).

 

[redshifteffect]

I still see no difference between the two degrees though.

1) All the books are the same regardless..even in the caribbean

2) Not all schools have a research requirement in the US, and not all schools in Australia have a research requirement...though some do

3) In Australia you can get in via highschool; the same is true with the US..but in the US they have fewer spots than in Australia

4) Both speak English..or a reasonable approximation of it....

5) Colour is spelled with a "u" and so is favourite; oesopagus has an "o" anaemia has an "a" and it's ADRENALINE not EPINEPHRINE but other than that I see no differences.

 

[1996]

One more thing. I have been trying to point out that an MD is the highest level degree we can get in medicine in the US. Therefore, while it is true that many US MDs who are doing private practice and not doing any research would be similar to a non-US MBBS, many MDs in the US (those in academics) have done enough research and published enough papers to be similar in qualification to a non-US MD. Yet, their degree is the same as all the other non-research, non-academic US MDs. So, don't generalize about US MDs in that sense.

May be you can say non-research, non-academic US MD = MBBS. Academic US MD = non-US MD?

 

[AJM]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
yeh so what's different about that than the MBBS? remember the MBBS is a 5- 6 year degree; as far as I can remember the accelerated "under grad" courses I was supposed to take weren't medically oriented at all.

Therefore Accelerated medical = MBBS

And since you still get an MD if you do it accelerated medical or not, there is nothing special about the MD

Also you say that this accelerated medical program is a small amount of ppl. but that doesn't matter even if ONE person gets it this way it undermines your whole argument that there is something special about the MD

As for your comment about the norm..I can't say anything about the other schools...melbourne might do it too. But the Post grad schools are becoming more popular only because it's pretty hard for a lot of students to get in...so they have to go the post grad route.

- actually I don't think I did get a Bachelors degree, since I was not required to complete one...if this is true then are you admitting that the US had to fudge their degrees to make it look that everyone who has and MD also had a Bachelors degree?

I couldn't find where 1996 was trying to argue that an MD degree is more advanced than MBBS. They are considered equivalent degrees, just in two different systems of medical education. Even in the accelerated medical programs, the medical degree is considered an advanced degree in the US. These students have to have done a required amount of undergraduate coursework before they can become medical students. And they typically complete both a Bachelor's and MD degree, even though the Bachelor's course work was done in only 2-3 years. This also goes to my point that Bachelor's degrees in the US are not as difficult as Bachelor's degrees in other countries (hence why an MD or MBBS degree is not considered to be equivalent to a US Bachelor's).

It's also possible to get a Bachelor's in 2-3 years even if you're not in a combined program, so these accelerated programs are not necessarily 'fudging' the Bachelor's degree. Undergrads are typically required to stay at their university for 3 years if they want to get an undergraduate degree, so that overall time requirement often limits them. But I got two separate Bachelors degrees at my university in less than 4 years (actually it was 3 and 2/3 years). That works out to about 2 years per undergrad degree for me. And I definitely did not feel like I was 'fudging' anything, and I did not do an accelerated medical program, either.

Again, no difference between MBBS and MD, just different education systems.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by 1996
One more thing. I have been trying to point out that an MD is the highest level degree we can get in medicine in the US. Therefore, while it is true that many US MDs who are doing private practice and not doing any research would be similar to a non-US MBBS, many MDs in the US (those in academics) have done enough research and published enough papers to be similar in qualification to a non-US MD. Yet, their degree is the same as all the other non-research, non-academic US MDs. So, don't generalize about US MDs in that sense.

May be you can say non-research, non-academic US MD = MBBS. Academic US MD = non-US MD?

who said you have to do research in Australia to get an MD? As far as I know all my professors are doing research and they are still MBBS...

so again

MD=MBBS

 

[Purifyer]

Originally posted by 1996

May be you can say non-research, non-academic US MD = MBBS. Academic US MD = non-US MD?

There are MBChBs/MBBSs academics doing research too.... if you're desperate for an equivalent try non-US MD = MD/PhD US

 

[1996]

Originally posted by redshifteffect

3) In Australia you can get in via highschool; the same is true with the US..but in the US they have fewer spots than in Australia

Oh, much, much fewer! Grads from US accelerated programs make up much less than 5% of US med school grads annually. And only a few out of the 15 total are 6 years long. Most are 7, some are 8. Some, like Brown, requires finishing a full bachelor's degree while maintaining a certain GPA (no MCAT though) before proceeding to the med school portions. Others are more general. Either way, they are really competitive to get into. Some of my high school friends who applied with a 4.0 GPA in high school and >1550 SAT didn't even get past the primary application round.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by AJM
I couldn't find where 1996 was trying to argue that an MD degree is more advanced than MBBS. They are considered equivalent degrees, just in two different systems of medical education. Even in the accelerated medical programs, the medical degree is considered an advanced degree in the US. These students have to have done a required amount of undergraduate coursework before they can become medical students. And they typically complete both a Bachelor's and MD degree, even though the Bachelor's course work was done in only 2-3 years. This also goes to my point that Bachelor's degrees in the US are not as difficult as Bachelor's degrees in other countries (hence why an MD or MBBS degree is not considered to be equivalent to a US Bachelor's).

It's also possible to get a Bachelor's in 2-3 years even if you're not in a combined program, so these accelerated programs are not necessarily 'fudging' the Bachelor's degree. Undergrads are typically required to stay at their university for 3 years if they want to get an undergraduate degree, so that overall time requirement often limits them. But I got two separate Bachelors degrees at my university in less than 4 years (actually it was 3 and 2/3 years). That works out to about 2 years per undergrad degree for me. And I definitely did not feel like I was 'fudging' anything, and I did not do an accelerated medical program, either.

Again, no difference between MBBS and MD, just different education systems.

I'm not saying you fudged anything at all. I'm just saying that I'm pretty sure I didn't get a Bachelors degree with at least one of the programs I got into. Maybe in one of them I did. But if I had to do some undergrad course work but didn't get a Bachelors degree at all, and yet still got into med school how is this any different than the MBBS program?

 

[1996]

Originally posted by Purifyer
There are MBChBs/MBBSs academics doing research too.... if you're desperate for an equivalent try non-US MD = MD/PhD US

That wouldn't work though. The PhD part in the MD/PhD is actually a full graduate PhD program, usually through the Biology department. They have nothing to do with the MD part, and they have the same requirements as a grad student doing a PhD in biology.

So, what exactly are the requirements for a non-US MD, if they don't have to do research for it?

Are you saying that doctors in the US can NEVER attain the same levels as the non-US MDs? Well, then, congratulations on having so many great, high-level doctors in your countries that the US can never produce.

 

[AJM]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
who said you have to do research in Australia to get an MD? As far as I know all my professors are doing research and they are still MBBS...

so again

MD=MBBS

I think 1996 was referring to the MD degree that other countries confer outside the US (ie, if you went to the UK, got your MBBS, then did further schooling and got your MD). The MD degree that you can get in the UK, for example, is primarily a research degree, and you get it on top of the MBBS. It's similar to getting a PhD in the US after your MD, but even more prestigious than that. Unfortunately, since we don't have an equivalent in the US for the British MD degree, it unfortunately often gets left out in titles. Some UK MBBS/MD's who come to the US to practice will add to their title MD/PhD, since that's the closest thing we have to that degree.

 

[1996]

On a similar note, I think you can also get a PhD in, say, biochemistry or neuroscience, after the MBBS instead of an MD. Like a MBBS/PhD. I think I have seen someone like that, I think she was MBChB, PhD.

 

[Purifyer]

Originally posted by 1996
That wouldn't work though. The PhD part in the MD/PhD is actually a full graduate PhD program, usually through the Biology department. They have nothing to do with the MD part, and they have the same requirements as a grad student doing a PhD in biology.

So, what exactly are the requirements for a non-US MD, if they don't have to do research for it?

Are you saying that doctors in the US can NEVER attain the same levels as the non-US MDs? Well, then, congratulations on having so many great, high-level doctors in your countries that the US can never produce.

Don't go overboard. As you said, the systems are different. The academic standard of an MD is equivalent to PhD. Iin America, a (US)MD is not the equivalent of a PhD.

"So, what exactly are the requirements for a non-US MD, if they don't have to do research for it?"

They do have to do research for it, what is your point exactly?

No I am not saying US doctors can never reach the dazzling heights of having a real doctorate. Personally I don't see any point in trying so hard to compare the two systems, but if you want... there it is. MD = MBChB, MBChB/MD = MD/PhD

 

[Purifyer]

Originally posted by 1996
On a similar note, I think you can also get a PhD in, say, biochemistry or neuroscience, after the MBBS instead of an MD. Like a MBBS/PhD. I think I have seen someone like that, I think she was MBChB, PhD.

Yep you can. Personally I'm thinking of taking that route because you can get a PhD faster than an MD.

 

[1996]

Originally posted by Purifyer
Yep you can.

That's sort of why I don't think a non-US MD is equivalent to a PhD either. Because, if that is true, how would a MBBS/PhD be different from a MBBS/MD? The PhD of the MD/PhD is a doctorate degree in a biological field with its own counterpart in non-US countries (say, a US PhD in biochemistry vs a non-US PhD in biochemistry? 🙂 ) That's why I don't agree with the whole MBBS/MD=MD/PhD thing. Unfortunately, as AJM said, we don't have an equivalent of a non-US MD. That is also why, since a non-US MD is a primarily research degree, I think many US MDs who could have gotten a non-US MDs given the work they have done are embedded among all the generic US MDs.

 

[Purifyer]

Originally posted by 1996
That's sort of why I don't think a non-US MD is equivalent to a PhD either. Because, if that is true, how would a MBBS/PhD be different from a MBBS/MD?

It's not really. You can apply to get into a PhD programme as soon as you finish your MBChB, you have to wait 5-10 years after finishing your MBChB before being able to get 'apply' for an 'MD programme'. This is depending on the university offering it of course.

That's why I don't agree with the whole MBBS/MD=MD/PhD thing. Unfortunately, as AJM said, we don't have an equivalent of a non-US MD. That is also why, since a non-US MD is a primarily research degree, I think many US MDs who could have gotten a non-US MDs given the work they have done are embedded among all the generic US MDs.

I don't believe so, as I said before we can do over 1 1/2 years of research tackled onto an MBChB... we don't receive an MD as well for it.

 

[1996]

Originally posted by Purifyer
I don't believe so, as I said before we can do over 1 1/2 years of research tackled onto an MBChB... we don't receive an MD as well for it.

Some of us here take years off to do research as well during med school. The kind of correlation that I'm trying to draw is that some academicians, the dean of my school is an example, would spend 3-5 years after their residency performing just research, usually in the form of a research fellowship. However, they don't get any extra degree out of it and stay an MD. These are the kind of people I'm referring to that are "embedded" among the generic US MDs.

 

[Purifyer]

Originally posted by 1996
Some of us here take years off to do research as well during med school. The kind of correlation that I'm trying to draw is that some academicians, the dean of my school is an example, would spend 3-5 years after their residency performing just research, usually in the form of a research fellowship. However, they don't get any extra degree out of it and stay an MD. These are the kind of people I'm referring to that are "embedded" among the generic US MDs.

Point taken 😀

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by 1996
Some of us here take years off to do research as well during med school. The kind of correlation that I'm trying to draw is that some academicians, the dean of my school is an example, would spend 3-5 years after their residency performing just research, usually in the form of a research fellowship. However, they don't get any extra degree out of it and stay an MD. These are the kind of people I'm referring to that are "embedded" among the generic US MDs.

Jeez 5 years on top of residency...I'd be too drained out by then

 

[1996]

Originally posted by redshifteffect
Jeez 5 years on top of residency...I'd be too drained out by then

I know. Those people are crazy.

 

[pitman]

Originally posted by 1996
The PhD of the MD/PhD is a doctorate degree in a biological field with its own counterpart in non-US countries (say, a US PhD in biochemistry vs a non-US PhD in biochemistry? 🙂 )

The PhD can be in anything -- the title merely means "have MD and have PhD [..will travel 😉]". It's just that the most common route is a combined programme, which allows completion of both degrees in a reasonable number of years b.c. the PhD is in a related field (e.g., biology-related).

One of my mentors has an MD/PhD in Economics, degrees gotten completely independently (and now his expertise is health management).

-pitman

 

[irisheyes]

Whatever your degree...do you get to practice medicine...yeah!!!...o.k....enough said...sorry...but how many times can we rephrase the same answer a different way..🙄 .

 

[davidw11]

I'm talking about US schools. Obviously other countries do things different. I don't care if med school over there is called "high school". I'm saying that in the US, a MD is not an undergraduate degree. Find me proof otherwise. How can you have a combined MD/Ph.D program then if technically you can't be in a Ph.D program without a previous graduate degree(masters)