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Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by amnesiac, Mar 22, 2001.
C'mon, who could argue?
Let's save this topic for TPR, shall we?
Amnesiac, nice try, but you're no KidA...
What difference does it make to you? Are you just asking to offend people? If you really want your question answered, go post your "topic" on the pre-osteo forum...
Ya know, you never see these kinds of posts on the pre-osteopathic forum. My two cents is that they are very similar...but DOs can take the USMLE and the COMLEX whereas MDs can only take the USMLE. Go figure!
I will debate that any time. Would you like to be enlightened, or are you just looking for a good stroking from your peers?
Ohhhh, stroke me Toran!
There, there....you'll learn some day
This is a waste of time and energy.
Could it be that most of the MDs who are so caught up with the MD/DO superiority thing are trying to convey superiority upon themselves via their membership in a "superior" group. I suspect that they are the dullards of their osteo classes. A good DO is always better than a dirtbag MD.
At MSU, DO and MD students take the SAME courses for the first 2 yearts, except that DO also have to take OMM. Cinical training is only slightly different. So, at leasr here it looks like DO have more to learn. Does not being in the same classes together=the same educationand=equality?
I, for one, and thousands of patients could as well. And I think I could make a good case when I have a patient walk of out my office physically feeling better after a few manipulative techniques than to just have them walk out with a prescription in hand.
Why is it that only pre-meds start this argument?
[This message has been edited by DocHahn (edited March 26, 2001).]
quick question, amnesiac....
assuming you are NOT delusional and simply (as was suggested) looking for a "stroking" from your peers, please answer this:
When you say that MD's are "better" than DO's, are you including the 25% of approximately 600,000 practicing physicians in the US who don't actually have a real MD degree, but use the title merely out of convention?
In case you're wondering...I'm referring to the foreign medical grads educated at "Bob's medikul skool" on Gilligan's Island in the Carribean or those who go to school for 5 years after high school (common in some countries) and then call themselves "Doctor" - the educational equivalent of (at best) a master's degree in the US.
Let me tell you something, Buddy...I would rather be treated by the DUMBEST person graduating from a D.O. school.
to be fair, while it's true that we take the same classes as our allopathic counterparts, the grading criteria are a bit more lenient for us. but i do agree, we are their equals.
i think the reason that pre-meds usually start these threads is because they are basing their arguments on the relative difficulties of being accepted to allopathic and osteopathic schools- this is usually supported by the higher GPA/MCAT averages at most MD schools. although i know very little about the topic, having only applied to MD schools and not really even knowing of the existence of DO schools until after i applied, i tend to think that the difference between applicants (MD vs DO) would level out following four years of school.
I was going to support your opinion, but before I had a chance to finish the post that told why MD's are better than DO's, my back started to hurt. I mean it really, really, hurt. It hurt so bad that that I called my MD doctor and he told me to take some asprin and to leave him alone, seeing as how he wasn't on call tonight. I did take the asprin, but it's gonna take half an hour before it kicks in... In the mean time, I sure wish there was a DO around to do some manip on my back.
Hello all you pre-allopaths. I graduated from a D.O. school and now am currently in a M.D. residency. D.O.'s use the same textbooks, prescribe the same meds, perform the same surgeries, and are licensed equally as the M.D.'s. The unfortune problem is that the lay public generally associates the term doctor or physician to mean M.D. Most people think D.O. means optometrist, chiroprachter, or "bone doctor". In this discussion of medicine, the public is generally the group that needs to be better informed. Most pre-meds should be smart enough to see that despite the small differences in philosophy, there is bery little difference.
Personally, I think that this argument is senseless. I will have no problems consulting a DO if noone else is around.
What does bother me is: What is it so much easier to get accepted into a DO school?
MD's don't take the complex b/c we DON'T want to go into their residencies, which are in backward community hospital, or "glorified nursing homes" as I read on another post. DO's had to the USMLE b/c many of them want to come to allopathic residencies which are located in state of the art academic centers (at least a lot of them). Please get your premed facts straight.
I can take this stuff from pre-meds but I don't expect this type of crap from a MS IV. I've noticed your crap all over on different threads and sections of SDN. Why don't you get your premed facts straight?!! US MDs don't take the COMLEX because they aren't allowed to.
You are the most insecure US MD I've ever met. I'm getting sick of your crap on this forum. I know this will probably make you hate DOs even more but it is obvious that your ignorance will never change. It is painfully clear that your intention is not to learn more about DOs but rather to stroke your own ego. Why have you come on this forum? Is it because you've been getting crap from your other classmates about going into Anesthesia? Is this a defense mechanism created by your superego to protect your ego? Has your id gone out-of-control? Maybe you should utilize the free psych counseling that US MD schools provide.
What's with the creation of this thread:
Anesthesiology is fast becoming competitive
Can you get any more insecure? I've heard a rumor that Anesthesiology is for losers who couldn't find a real residency. Is this true? Isn't Anesthesia some backwards type of medicine that even a patient from a glorified nursing home can perform? What exactly are CRNAs? Can you share with the pre-meds what they do? Can we all say, "CRNAs can do the same thing Anesthesiologists do"? Isn't there a bill in Congress that will allow CRNAs to function without supervision? Are you going to lie to other pre-meds here and say that Anesthesiologists aren't worried about CRNAs? Because that's not what I hear from the Anesthesiologists that I've worked with. Ouch, that's gotta hurt!! Nurses with two years of training who can do the exact same things as you can. What does that say about your Anesthesia residency training?
Let me ask you another question, do you think that the surgeons you work for respect you? Hmmm... that's not what I hear from the US MD surgeons that I've worked with. I love how you guys sit there and read a paper or finish a crossword puzzle while the medical students, nurses, and surgeons (real doctors) are doing the 'real' work. In fact, I've met many Anesthesiologists who have gotten out of the field because they are sick of the lack of respect from surgeons. Sound familiar, gasdoc?
I guess they have DO Orthopedic and Neurosurgery Residencies at glorified nursing homes, huh? I guess you've surveyed all the residencies across America and decided that this was fact. Just because you read this somewhere does not make you any less guilty of the statement. Before you repost something and use it as fact, shouldn't you be responsible enough to verify the veracity of the statement. Gee... you'll make a great researcher. I guess Anesthesia was appropriate for you. It is obvious that you have chosen to be ignorant to make yourself feel better. You've sunken to the bottom of the medical community so it makes you feel better to try to find another group to put down.
Why do US DOs do Allopathic residencies? Yes, there are world class Allopathic residencies and we want to participate in them. So what? There are also a ton of ****ty ones too that many US MDs do. Do you own these state-of-the-art residencies? Did you build them by hand? Why do you take such pride in them and try to use the residencies as a basis to prove that as a MD you are better than a DO. For your information, these state-of-the-art residencies pick DOs over MDs all the time. I don't know where my entire class matched at but my friends and I matched at Stanford for IM, USC for EM, and Columbia for Anesthesia. Those are decent programs, aren't they?
By virtue of having more residencies, you will have more programs that are better. Just like you will have more programs that are worse.
I'm willing to bet that there many US MDs in a crappy Allopathic FP, Anesthesia, or IM residency that would gladly take a DO residency in Neurosurgery, Orthopedic Surgery, Radiology, Emergency Medicine, Urology, Plastic Surgery, or Dermatology. You know why you never hear of an US MD in a DO residency? Because they aren't allowed to apply, gasdoc!! If these residencies are so backwards and so terrible, why have they been around for decades? Why hasn't 20/20 done a special on this crazy type of DO "Neurosurgery" residency?
I have no doubt that you were a top-notch Undergrad student when you were a teenager from 18-22 years old. It's too bad that your brain shut itself down when you were an adult medical student from 22-26 years old. Oh well, it's not like you're a brain surgeon. Sorry to take up so much time reading this. I hope the surgeon/boss you work for doesn't yell at you for being late. See gasdoc run.
P.S. Many of my comments were made tongue-in-cheek. The purpose was to illustrate how ignorance can be an ugly thing. If you don't like the ignorance that exists about Anesthesia, shouldn't you be cognizant of your own ignorance about other fields of medicine.
Hell yeah Leotigers, tell him what's up!
Woof Woof !
SEEKING MORE DOG (ANESTHESIA) TRAINERS
TY LT. I wish this meant gassy would shut up now...but you know he won't. You think maybe Gassy and Osteoguy are related?
MAAT the Vegetarian.
Leo, WOW you really went off pretty strongly there. I didn't know gassdoc upset you so much.
Thanks for the low down on anesthesiology too. I didn't know all of that info.
OUCH!....the hiney-spank heard 'round-the-world...
I think I may have even felt that from here....[checking buttcheeks]
Kat, DO (Class '05) - for the record
[This message has been edited by NurseyK (edited April 03, 2001).]
I find this whole argument very funny. I shadowed two anesthesiologists for almost a year (one was an MD the other was a DO) I loved the whole experience and discovered that I really enjoy the OR environment. 2 things I noticed: first, no one seemed to have any problem with the DO I worked with (he wrote me a reccomendation that probably played a role in getting me in at NYCOM by the way). Second, I didn't pick up on this intense rivalry that supposedly exists between Anesthesia and ssurgery. One Urologist even made the comment that the BIS monitors the hospital had just started using sounded like Star Trek to him because he was "just a urologist". In summary what I'm trying to say is that doctors should get over this obsession with their specialties. Anesthesiologist don't want to be surgeons, and surgeons don't want to be IM docs, and IM docs probably don't wish they were anything else either. Do what you love and quit trying to prove that your field is better or more important or more competitive than other fields.
MAAT, are we friends again?
As much as I can be friends with a DO PLT
FYI~CRNA is in total 6 years of training~
Bachelors of Science Degree (BSN)
[prereqs for 2 year nursing degree=>Bio,
Gen Chem, Microbio, A&P, Nutrition, Psych (child & adult);For BSN include Stats, Pharmacology, & Patho]
+ 2000 hours clinical experience in critical care (which typically takes a new grad 2 years floor experience to even get close to an autonomous [non-mentored] critical care position-so, 2000 hours critical care experience after one has already been a RN for 2 years) prior to application, + Organic 1 & 2, Physics 1 & 2, blah, blah, blah... as prereqs for the CRNA program. The spots available are few and far between, and believe it or not, way more difficult/competitive to get a spot than med school as is with PAs). Then the CRNA program takes 2 more years. They are no ding-dongs. Hey~I became a RN/BSN to get experience on my road to becoming a doctor, so I am not the Guru Nurse, but it would behoove you to get your facts straight and know/respect your teammates. A great deal of your patient information will come from the teammates who spend 12 hours at a time (compared to your managed care-limited few minutes-so that your valuable time can be optimized amongst your multiple patients) taking care of your critically ill, ventilated, Swan Ganz cathed, MS tubed, AV wired, thrombocytopenic, bleeding out, V-Tach every 10 minutes, IA balloon pump reliant, post op CABG patients. Should I throw in a PE just for kicks? This complicated course happens more than the docs/surgeons like to admit (**** happens when you are dealing with peoples lives/bodies.) I will spare you the ventriculostomy/neurosurgical patient and dissecting AAA retorig. Who do you surgeons-to-be think KEEPS them alive after you perform your God gifted miracles and magic in the OR? An intensivist takes over from there to take care of the overall patient care, but then who gets called when the patient goes into renal fx after all the antibiotics crash his system? Perhaps the intensivist, unless the patient requires dialysis, then the renal doc comes in. And when he gets septic and after multiple treatments still runs a temp of 104? Do we still call the surgeon? Not if we value our lives! Infectious disease consult. How about ventilator/pulmonary management? Definitely rates a Pulmonologist. And who manages the vent/pulmonary care, carries out MD orders, weans, sometimes terminally, after the Pulmonologist is gone? [Respiratory Therapist] There are still 23+ hours in that patient's day that require and deserve constant high tech, highly qualified care from a staff that is sharp 100% of the entire 12 hour shift. And what if this were a child cardiac patient? It takes a village, so they say. WHILE THIS IS NOT THE NORM OR THE PREFERRED CHAIN OF EVENTS, IT IS NOT UNCOMMON EITHER.
While I am venting, try to remember at least one or 2 of the above when the RN~~ whom has been managing/troubleshooting of the above for 8 hours with the terrified family members you have to deal with for an almost always too painful few minutes, in the waiting room 20 feet away the whole time, asking the same painful questions~~without calling you every 20 minutes (who know you are gonna rip them apart [or at least be less than cordial] for waking you up at 2 am when you have to be back in the OR at 7am and you just got home at 10pm) calls you for direction and orders for your patient based on clinical assessment, so that he doesn't code.
Sorry~I know this is an inappropriate place for this, but if I had posted it in the Nurse Forum would any of you have read it? All of the petty bashing, arguing, bickering amongst the professions (in actuality, happens mostly as students, infrequently in the real world)could be pretty well toned down if we all tuck in our cocky chests a bit and PLEASE respect our fellow professionals for the expertise they have in THEIR field, as they will respect you for the expertise you have in yours. The fact is, there are certain things that I am an expert in as a nurse that you as a physician (and I as a physician had I not been a nurse first) are not (as is with Physical Therapists, Speech Pathologists, Social Worker, etc.) Everyone should have THE common goal, and the benefit of competant professionals rallying towards that goal as a team will always be in the patient's best interest. There is always room and need for another exceptional medical professional, title notwithstanding, even if we have to scooch a bit closer together and pull in our spurs to all fit.
Suppose I could get a personal statement out of there somewhere?
[This message has been edited by Nurse2Doc (edited April 04, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Nurse2Doc (edited April 04, 2001).]
IP: 188.8.131.52 for gasdoc and Dung.
gasdoc: racist UCLA medical student
Nice detective work MAAT. I guess this just goes to show that UCLA Medical Students can be dumb too -- at least the ones that go into Anesthesia. I guess gasdoc is proof that you don't have to be a genius to get into a Top 20 Medical School.
SEEKING DUNG UCLA MEDICAL STUDENTS -- LT
This is wonderful to see!! A physician from UCLA Medical school who is racist. I have no doubt that if you were on the admissions committee, you would reject Asians, DOs, and Women. I guess it won't be too hard to find out who you are. You are a Bruin forever, right? How many UCLA Medical Students matched into UCLA's Anesthesia program this year? I'll be I can find out. For your patient's sake, I hope all your patients will be a Caucasian men. I cringe to think what you will do to your patients with a needle and some drugs. God forbid you should have a patient who does not speak English. That would really piss you off wouldn't it? A-hole.
[This message has been edited by Leotigers (edited April 04, 2001).]
Your always welcome LT.
See, good things can come out of the most unexpected places
MDs are better than DOs? You immature pre-med. Either one of theses two letters behind your name won't make you better than anyone. It's not the letters that makes one MD or DO better than another, it's the doc himself. How can you judge which doc is better than another just by the title behind their name. I'd rather go to a confident, compassionate DO, than an arrogant pompous MD. I have no regrets entering the DO profession, and specifically chose DO over MD because that's who I am. I can do everything an MD can plus more. MDs can be better than DOs, and vice versa. So eat it, you arrogant pre-MD who probably won't get in anywhere.