MDs are MDs ...or not ????

[IRON_DUKE]

I keep reading all about how inferior IMGs are .

I am not going to start the AMG vs. IMG thing , cause frankly I dont see the logic behind it .

Those who graduate from outside the U.S.A. and can afford it usually go to the U.S.A. , CANADA , EUROPE , ETC.... TO do their residency training and obviously pass it with no problems . Now does that mean that these IMGs , are isolated and practice and learn on RED CROSS plastic dummies ???????? Or are using some computer generated patients to learn ??????

Also , when there are INTERNATIONAL MEDICAL CONFRENCES ........and the main speakers are from the U.S.A. ................why would they waste their time to come down here , if everyone is so ignorant and wont understand them anyway ??????

Would that not be a waste of time .............and come on ...........we all know that the AMGs BRAG about speaking in foreign countries . I was down in BRAZIL teaching parasitology .

And vice versa when an FMG goes to do some kind of specialty training or whatever , he feels pround and lets everyone know that he is off to a another country to do something . Does this mean that instead of being proud , he should be ashamed , because he is going to a place where he wont be able to tell a upper limb from a lower limb ???? Why would a PD accept such an inferior person to train , I mean after all ..........he is a FMG , and FMGs dont learn real medicine .......its all voodoo and hocus pocus .

I am an MS III , and I have never used a book that was not the written in the USA ...........do the letters change when these books are shipped outside the country ?????

One thing is for sure ................I am from the USA , and there is no doubt about it . The richest country in the world and the biggest power must have the most advanced technology there is . So there is no doubt that on that , there is hardly no one who can challenge the the dollar and the benefits that come along with it .

I mean the avg. med student will spend 35,000.00 to become a MD here , vs. that will probably pay for one year in the USA .

Anyway again this is not a people vs. people topic .

Just a reflexion for those who come here looking for advice on studying abroad and get scared away from a possible dream of being a MD , just cause they were not accepted into a MED program in the USA .

Over and out ,

Duke

So people are always comparing apples and oranges

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[BellKicker]

Hey Duke.

I think you're a little off from what every one else talks about when they talk about "foreign" med schools. I think few people actually believe that American Med schools are better than other places in the world. Actually, I haven't seen anyone state that on these boards.

What they ARE saying is that chances for US GRADS to land good US RESIDENCIES are good. Would anyone ever suggest that every single med school in the US is better than every single med school in Brazil? No. But is it easier to get a residency in the US? Yes.

I mean, I'm sure, say, French grads land the best French residencies. Nothing weird about that. And they DO have the best med schools, by the way (but that's an old thread that needn't be revived).

Later.

 

[IRON_DUKE]

BELL I agree with you that obviously its easier for a AMG to get a match , and so forth and so on .

But I keep reading about how IMGs are looked down upon ................ and why are they being looked down upon ?

Can be only one supposedly JUSTIFIED reason , and that is that the ones doing the looking down automatically think that IMGs are less educated .

Looka round the forum and you will find posts like , well if a old lady asks you were you graduated from dont tell her from outside the U.S.A. .

But why should anyone have that attitude . I do believe that more than anything there are those who aspire to be a specialist and they are not cut out for it .....................

But that does not mean that IMGs are only good for F.P . FAMILY PRACTICE .

Peace ,

 

[lola]

please don't flame me for this... again, i'm only answering the question. not necessarily expressing my viewpoints. just expressing what "people" think. i don't understand why someone would have this question, but if you want the answer here it is.

people view u.s. foreign medical graduates (particularly those from the caribbean) as not as good, because most of them went abroad b/c they couldn't get into schools in the u.s. the admissions standards are much lower for some, if not all (i don't know for sure), caribbean schools.

foreign medical graduates who originally came from the country they went to med school in are not looked down upon.

that old lady wouldn't care if you were a foreign medical grad who grew up in the u.k. and went to school in the u.k. she *might* care if you grew up in the u.s. and went to school in the caribbean.

i'm not saying anyone should have this attitute, but that fact is is that people do -- and i'd be willing to bet the majority of people do. if you're going to go this route, you should be prepared for it.

 

[Annette]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•please don't flame me for this... again, i'm only answering the question. not necessarily expressing my viewpoints. just expressing what "people" think. •••••Lola, maybe you wouldn't be flamed if you actually thought about what you post. Do you have multiple personalities? If you don't, then how exactly can you express what "people" think? You are only one person. If you have published information about a survey of some kind, please provide a refrence. Otherwise, what you are posting is purely your opinion.

 

[IRON_DUKE]

Lola :

Let me see if I have this right ...........ok ?

I am looked down upon if I am a US citizen , who did not get into a U.S. med school ...............
but had to go the foreign route .
BUT ...................................................................................

Its ok if I am a foreigner who graduated from a school outside the U.S.A. , I can practice medicine and will perceive no prejudice attitude against me ?

Well lola please , and I am not FLAMING YOU , tell me is this from personal experience ......or maybe something you hear on the HOSPITAL ELEVATOR , we all know the good ole gossip on that ride ?

How can you back up that statement , what proof do you have ?

Because if that is true , then I will do away with my southern twang and pretend I am from another country .

That would be so funny ...........

And I mean it , if that is my meal ticket ......., hey I always wanted to be ITALIAN ...........chics dig the accent .

Stay cool lola , and keep on posting .

Peace ,

Duke

 

[Skip Intro]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•please don't flame me for this... again, i'm only answering the question. not necessarily expressing my viewpoints. just expressing what "people" think. i don't understand why someone would have this question, but if you want the answer here it is.•••••lola, the spokesperson for the populus.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•people view u.s. foreign medical graduates (particularly those from the caribbean) as not as good, because most of them went abroad b/c they couldn't get into schools in the u.s. the admissions standards are much lower for some, if not all (i don't know for sure), caribbean schools.•••••Just please quote one source. The only "concrete" studies I know of have shown that there is absolutely no difference between the rates of medical malpractice of foreign grads and U.S. grads.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•foreign medical graduates who originally came from the country they went to med school in are not looked down upon.•••••All of them? And, by everyone? Again, source please. My research tells me that quite the opposite is true: many truly "foreign" doctors who practice in the U.S. have difficulty understanding and assimilating into American culture, can misinterpret body language and facial gestures, and even have problems with colloquial American english.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•that old lady wouldn't care if you were a foreign medical grad who grew up in the u.k. and went to school in the u.k. she *might* care if you grew up in the u.s. and went to school in the caribbean.•••••The chances are is that the only thing that "old lady" cares about is that you listen to her, diagnose her problem correctly, and then help her get better, if it is medically possible. Other patients who care about only seeing the "best doctor in town" (whatever that means) probably have narcissistic personality disorder. (Have you started boning-up on your behavioral science yet, lola? )

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•i'm not saying anyone should have this attitute, but that fact is is that people do -- and i'd be willing to bet the majority of people do. if you're going to go this route, you should be prepared for it.•••••Again, who are "people"? Please tell us. Who do you represent? And, can you back this up with anything other than your opinion? And, while we're at it, what about D.O.'s? You seem to have your finger on the pulse of society. Maybe you can enlighten us about what people think about osteopaths.

By the way (and, as I said before), I don't intend to have "CARIBBEAN GRAD" stitched into my labcoat. The only letters on mine, besides my name, will be 'M.D.'

 

[lola]

all i'm going to say is that you wouldn't be getting so excited unless these "people" existed and what i was saying was true!

caribbean medical students are the butt of many jokes. not my jokes, but other people's jokes. after the dialogue between you people, i'm starting to think maybe it's rightfully so.

 

[IRON_DUKE]

LOLA ..........WHY ARE YOU IGNORING MY QUESTIONS ????

I mean for real I need to know this things so I can brush up on my ITALIAN , and watch more of the FOOD NETWORK CHANNEL , with EMERIL , and MARIO EATS ITALY .



Remember lola , I told you I am not flaming you at all .

 

[YellowRose]

personally, heres my opinion, and don't flame me...

WHO CARES. if you're a Caribbean MD, a DO, a Harvard MD, or a Howard MD.

Do your job well, and you'll get anyones respect. If i'm your colleague and I see that your patients love you and the job that you do, you got my respect.

 

[Skip Intro]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•all i'm going to say is that you wouldn't be getting so excited unless these "people" existed and what i was saying was true!•••••Is that ALL you're going to say? I was expanding on your analogy, lola. And, I have a broader knowledge and interaction base working with patients and IMGs in such scenarios.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•caribbean medical students are the butt of many jokes. not my jokes, but other people's jokes. after the dialogue between you people, i'm starting to think maybe it's rightfully so.•••••You're gonna be the butt of many people's jokes on this forum, if you continue to defend your opinions so poorly.

 

[mgrunzke]

The question is not if international med schools are inferior but rather if carrib students are inferior. IMG's from India, Europe etc have proven to be excellent doctors and teachers. However, American students going to the carribs are inferior students. THey just don't have the same ability to think as other doctors. This is my opinion from what I have seen in the wards at my med school. Carrib students can state facts and figures all day but when it comes down to reasoning the pathophys or differential they go blank.

 

[IRON_DUKE]

SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME THE NORMAL VALUES OF WHAT SUB STANDARD IS ?

Since AMGs are Above standard ..........I need someone to post what is Above standard and what is below standard ?

It would seem to me that if medical education in the carribean is so bad , that over half of the population on those islands would be dead by now .

Again I am not a CLUB MED student .

But it would be nice to see some real numbers or case studies .

Next question , what if the PD was a IMG , do you think he would be so biased ? Hell no .

If you are an AMG sure you can say .........below par , and sub standard all day long .........

But that is due to the WE vs. THEM debate .

<img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

 

[Skip Intro]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by PnkJnky:
•I think if any of you wise guys (Skip Intro, Annette) would take the time to read a few posts of others and not just think of what you're going to say to the one person that's giving an honest answer, you would be able to find MANY MANY posts sharing opinions that carribean schools are of lower quality education than american schools.•••••First of all, there is a vast difference between an honest answer and an opinion. Who's doing the talking on those forums? Mostly a bunch of uninformed pre-med students, or undergrad U.S. students, who don't know their a*s from a hole in the ground when it comes to working in the real world. You have been provided REAL and fact-based evidence from people who have (a) worked with IMGs directly, and (b) are IMGs themselves who have given you their real experiences working in the wards. What have you and your ilk provided? Nothing but conjecture, heresay, and empty opinion; and still you choose to ignore real life examples, instead choosing to hang on to your uniformed opinions. And, as far as someone who wants to snigger behind my back in the hospital... well if they don't have the guts to say it to my face then I really don't give a ****.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by PnkJnky:
•No, it's the belief that the education is of a lower caliber.•••••Again, please just show me ONE SOURCE! NY State board of education and the U.S. Department of Education regularly visit Ross University. The NY State medical licensing board accepts a Ross degree without requiring students to go through the full, formal International Medical Graduate application process. We were recently audited by the WHO and other licensing boards and our education was found to be comparable to LCME accredited schools. So, is your opinion based in reality or misguided, uninformed thinking?

•••quote:•••Originally posted by PnkJnky:
•So, you might want to focus on changing people's opinions of FMG rather than denying that they exist.•••••I don't deny that they exist, never have, and that is PRECISELY what I'm trying to do, but fighting people with such profoundly ignorant opinions of what really goes on down here in Dominica is an arduous, uphill battle. And being compelled to respond to posts like yours only make it harder.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by PnkJnky:
•Carribean medical schools have lower ranges for acceptance. If they had higher acceptance rates and the same reputation/residency opportunities they would be empty buildings.•••••

I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make here. Please clarify.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by PnkJnky:
•It's really no secret that many consider carribean schools subpar education. I'm sorry but that is a fact.•••••Yes, and it is a sad fact. The vast majority of graduates go on to successful careers in medicine in the U.S. Many of them even end up practicing medicine in underserved areas and filling the void that is left by arrogant U.S.-trained physicians feel is beneath them. (If this pipeline of doctors dries up, there will be a REAL healthcare crisis in the U.S. - believe it!) However, some of them even go on to teaching positions in U.S. medical schools! And, everyone seems to forget that these graduates could only do this by passing all of their licensure requirements - requirements that are the SAME for all internationally trained and U.S. medical grads who want to practice in the States - and doing an approved residency in an ACGME certified program.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by mgrunzke:
•However, American students going to the carribs are inferior students. THey just don't have the same ability to think as other doctors.•••••Let me give you a little story to show you just how wrong you are... First off, by the sounds of your post you are not American nor even have the remotest idea of how admission to a U.S. medical school works for a U.S. citizen. I could be wrong. Nonetheless, there is a guy in my class - a class that we've been told by the faculty, even as recently as today, is one of the BEST classes that has ever come through Ross - who was a 3.7 undergrad student in California with a 31 on the MCAT. He was waitlisted for a California school (i.e., obviously good enough for admission), but did not get in. He's 24 years-old and decided it was time to move on with his medical education. Had he lived in Nebraska, or North Dakota, or some other mid-western State, he most surely would've gotten an acceptance. Is he a "subpar" student? Give me a break. He's a 4.0 student at Ross right now and I assure you that he will easily break 230 on Step I. Not only is the guy friggin' brilliant when it comes to book smarts, he is also one of the most personable and approachable people you could ever meet. But for the incredibly unfair bias expressed against students who have, quite frankly, the "balls" to go a non-traditional route and the bigotry of uninformed jerks like yourself, this guy would NEVER get questioned about how hard he's worked to earn his medical degree.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by mgrunzke:
•This is my opinion from what I have seen in the wards at my med school. Carrib students can state facts and figures all day but when it comes down to reasoning the pathophys or differential they go blank.•••••So, clearly you know who is and is not a "Carib" (and it's one 'R', by the way) grad on your wards, right? Do you think your own clear bias may be overinfluencing your opinion of that person? For example, if an American (or otherwise) grad resident "beefs" a diagnosis, I'll bet your more likely to shrug it off as a learning experience. However, if a Caribbean grad - known by everyone to be so - makes a mistake, everyone rolls their eyes and says under their collective breath, "Oh brother, these Caribbean grads really suck!"

Again, ALL I am really asking for is SOME clear statistics!! Please someone quote a source. The malpractice rates (i.e., not how much one pays for malpractice insurance, but how much one gets sued) IS relevant because it shows NO difference between U.S. trained and foreign trained physicians.

Can't anyone find some real facts to back-up their otherwise unsubstantiated opinions?

 

[IRON_DUKE]

Naysayers ............................. :

Has anyone considered writing a monograph about why IMGs are such poor medical students and thus turn into terrible doctors .

But basing the monograph on facts , hopefully published facts ........something tangible . The malpractice issue that SKIP INTRO mentioned is an excellent point in fact .
We could see whom in the end is the most highly sued group .

Sure since those PDs that are passing judgement know that their panel is unicameral , then they have the luxuary of pointing fingers .

I am not bellicose nor belligerent . This forum will not lay to rest the stigma nor harsh words being exchanged between AMGs and IMGs . Nor will it be the cure to the ignorance that is propagated by many , who do not have the most remote idea of what they are saying .

A concern with test scores is inimical to a broad education .

Do AMGs show such probity that every word out of their mouth is the truth ? Since when do people show such blind faith .

Since AMGs are such nestors in the physician world they should share their unlimited wisdom with the rest .

I wonder about the provenance of this ignorance ? Mind you I am not trying to litigate this case in a court of world opinion .

All I have read so far is pure conjecture . I keep reading about how IMGs are this and that , but where are the facts ?

Please post facts .

 

[lola]

i never said doctors from the caribbean were worse. some people may view them as worse, because they don't know the flukey admissions process in the u.s. and don't know the weeding out process that occurs in the caribbean. all they know is that caribbean schools accept worse students than u.s. schools. the fact is, those students who choose to go to carib med schools are worse ON AVERAGE than those who go to u.s. schools. i don't know why you're arguing this.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by IRON_DUKE:
All I have read so far is pure conjecture . I keep reading about how IMGs are this and that , but where are the facts ? ••••if you are going to argue against these ideas, where are your facts? you seem to just ramble on and on, and your ideas are not always coherent.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Skip Intro:
The malpractice rates (i.e., not how much one pays for malpractice insurance, but how much one gets sued) IS relevant because it shows NO difference between U.S. trained and foreign trained physicians. ••••interesting... what's your source for this info anyway. also, what are malpractice rates for primary care vs. specialty physicians? if specialty physicians are more likely to get sued, this would automatically decrease the rates among carib med school grads vs. u.s., because more carib grads go into primary care. not saying this is the case, but after doing a degree in epidemiology, i never trust data without reading the article or knowing the source.

 

[Skip Intro]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•i never said doctors from the caribbean were worse. some people may view them as worse, because they don't know the flukey admissions process in the u.s. and don't know the weeding out process that occurs in the caribbean. all they know is that caribbean schools accept worse students than u.s. schools. the fact is, those students who choose to go to carib med schools are worse ON AVERAGE than those who go to u.s. schools. i don't know why you're arguing this.•••••Define "worse"... that seems to be a very loaded word and the root of many misconceptions about going Caribbean. And, again, sources please?

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•interesting... what's your source for this info anyway. also, what are malpractice rates for primary care vs. specialty physicians? if specialty physicians are more likely to get sued, this would automatically decrease the rates among carib med school grads vs. u.s., because more carib grads go into primary care. not saying this is the case, but after doing a degree in epidemiology, i never trust data without reading the article or knowing the source.•••••I would assume that all the "smart" people, probably U.S.-based sociologists and researchers trying to disprove the null hypothesis, would correct for such factors. Otherwise, such as study wouldn't be scientifically valid. Overall, it's pretty hard to find such studies online because any concrete data that shows that - when it comes down to brass tacks - there is equivalency in scores, malpractice rates, and quality of care between AMGs and IMGs, it makes the U.S. undergraduate medical education system not look as "golden" and "superior" as they'd like to think it is. Why do you think they don't include IMG USMLE scores in with the statistics of the U.S. students? Too risky? I'd bet that the scores at Ross and SGU would compare favorably with many U.S. medical schools. Nonetheless, you can chew on this...

<a href="http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2001/0611/024.html?_requestid=3794" target="_blank">The truth is that no study has ever been able to discern any difference in medical errors or malpractice between domestic and foreign-trained physicians.</a>

I'll assume that those who made that statement that have the data to back it up... I can work on getting for you if you want to be overly pedantic, and if you provide be with concrete data to back-up your statements. Deal?

Furthermore, what's even sadder is that there is <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7859953&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">clear, baseless discrimination</a> against IMGs in the U.S. And, <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8898541&dopt=Abstract" target="_blank">there is clearly a need for equity</a> that has been recognized and put forth by those who understand that there is baseless discrimination.

Sad, sad, sad that so many otherwise "intelligent" people can be so bigoted and biased. I don't know about training in U.S. medical schools, but a significant part of my training here involves ethics, and a big part of that is to recognize and avoid bias.

So, where are your sources again?

 

[lola]

well, what can i say... there are rewards for those who worked really hard in college and did well. they got into u.s. medical schools and will therefore have an easier time getting a residency.

for those who didn't work hard in undergrad and took the carib med route... there's a penalty for doing so and that's that they have a harder time getting a residency. i don't feel sorry for these people at all.

for those who did work hard and did well in college but for some reason didn't get into u.s. schools, well, that's a sad case. not everyone can always have luck on their side i guess.

•••quote:••• Originally posted by lola:
i never said doctors from the caribbean were worse. some people may view them as worse, because they don't know the flukey admissions process in the u.s. and don't know the weeding out process that occurs in the caribbean. all they know is that caribbean schools accept worse students than u.s. schools. the fact is, those students who choose to go to carib med schools are worse ON AVERAGE than those who go to u.s. schools. i don't know why you're arguing this.

Originally posted by Skip Intro:
Define "worse"... that seems to be a very loaded word and the root of many misconceptions about going Caribbean. And, again, sources please?

••••worse = not as good. i can't believe someone who is going to be a doctor can't figure that out, and i can't believe you need sources to back this up. why don't you just look up one of your old posts about this topic as a source? or do you not consider yourself a good source?

oh look, here's one:

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Skip Intro:
The thing about the Caribbean is that it's easy to get in. ••••Easy to get in i.e. students are worse, did not do as well in undergrad, did not do well on MCAT. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

 

[Skip Intro]

Did you even READ my last post? You really like to start with ad hominem when you don't really have anything else relevant to say, don't you?

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•oh look, here's one:

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Skip Intro:
The thing about the Caribbean is that it's easy to get in. ••••Easy to get in i.e. students are worse, did not do as well in undergrad, did not do well on MCAT. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> •••••How is "easy to get in" (when I should have, more correctly, said "easier") equivalent to being a "worse" or "not as good" student? I think the greater weight on the scale would tip towards the students who barely didn't get into U.S. medical schools for whatever reasons, not the least of which can be the sometimes whimsical admissions committee, rather than the slacker who, as you put it, "just doesn't get it".

Still, I've never argued - in fact, I agree with you - that the admission requirements are less stringent than they are in the U.S. I'd be lying, intellectually dishonest, contradictory, and just plain uninformed if I attempted to maintain and defend such an untennable position.

Instead you'll consistently see (since you apparently think it necessary to search everything I've ever said on this forum - something I have no interest in reciprocating), I've applauded schools like Ross for giving deserving people the chance. But, this does not mean that EVERYONE gets an admission. Ross, contrary to popular belief, does turn people away. I can't speak to the admissions policies of other schools. Regardless, how does this make one a "worse" student? The implication and connotations of the word "worse" suggests that all students are subpar and not worthy of pursuing their degree. Hogwash. You need to better utilize that "Vassar education" of yours and be more careful about your otherwise careless word choices. Quite contrary to your wild-stabbing-in-the-dark opinion on the matter, I'd say the MAJORITY of students at Ross are "very good" students. Most everyone here studies their collective rear-ends off - most of the time. There sure isn't much else to do on this island! Those that don't won't make it. But, to even ponder or consider using a word like "worse" to describe future doctors shows your inability to clearly form and put forth a coherent, logical argument. Look back through this post, lola, and you'll see that you've been all over the place. Who's opinions are we discussing anyway? Your's or the publics? You seem unable to decide, especially when you say things like:

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•well, what can i say... there are rewards for those who worked really hard in college and did well. they got into u.s. medical schools and will therefore have an easier time getting a residency.

for those who didn't work hard in undergrad and took the carib med route... there's a penalty for doing so and that's that they have a harder time getting a residency. i don't feel sorry for these people at all.

for those who did work hard and did well in college but for some reason didn't get into u.s. schools, well, that's a sad case. not everyone can always have luck on their side i guess.•••••Likewise, many of us did not have the opportunity to go to a Harvard or a Stanford or a Vassar as an undergrad - schools that CLEARLY have their own "elitist circles" and "take care of their own" mentality... or do you not believe that there is grade inflation at Ivy League schools? Again, give me a break.

<a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/11/21/national/main318831.shtml" target="_blank">Think I'm lying?</a>

In a nutshell, the difference between U.S. Medical School and most good, recognized Caribbean Medical Schools (and definitely for Ross, at the very least) basically boils down to this:

U.S.: HARDER to get in - EASIER to stay in
Carib: EASIER to get in - HARDER to stay in

What is the crux of my complaint with the uninformed opinions I see flying around? I'm sick of people who think that there is inferior training at Carib schools. This just isn't the case - at least for Ross and SGU. Once you get here, you have to prove yourself - or you will not last. To imply that I am a "worse" student simply because I came here, am doing well in my classes, and will prove myself when it comes to medical boards and subsequent wards time is just asinine. If I couldn't hack it, I'd be out of here like about 20% of my class already.

So, go back and read my posts again and try to show me where I've been inconsistent. And, while you're at it, why don't you now try to clearly restate what your apparent "flag in the breeze" opinion is about the Carib route. And, find some sources to back up your ugly misconceptions, if you can.

 

[Skip Intro]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by lola:
•you suck SOOOO bad. i hope you waste thousands of dollars and don't pass the boards. f*** off! go stick your head in the sand and suffocate.•••••Hmmm... is this they kind of language they teach you girls at Vassar? I hope I never accidentally become one of your patients, that is if you ever do make it through medical school. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Of course, we know you won't be coming to Dominica anytime soon, don't we?

Still, I'll take this as a concession that you have nothing further to add to the argument. Thank you for elaborating your position with the above exclamation point. Nice mouth too, by the way.

 

[IRON_DUKE]

LOLA :


Mooooooooooo. That was not nice . Nor was any proof included .

In the future I hope we can keep it cool and fun . We are looking for stats , not insults .....................thats what dentists are for .

So LOLA , as soon as I see that data , I will be able to compare .


Peace ,


Duke

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by PnkJnky
The simple fact is that opinions--I could give you names--of doctors in my area is that YOU ARE LESS PREPARED FOR A MEDICAL CAREER than those trained in the US. That is a FACT.

No, this is Unsubstantiated Claim #1 in your post and, you admit, based on opinion. Do you have difficulty distinguishing between facts and opinions? You seem to want to use the words interchangeably. And, please provide names. You can PM me. I'd be happy to send a few e-mails out to people who "begged you not to go" Caribbean so I can hear firsthand what they really think. Personally, I had the director of epilepsy center at an Ivy League medical school e-mail me, in these exact words, "I know you'll do wonderfully. Good luck, and if you ever need a letter of recommendation, don't hesitate to ask!" prior to me starting Ross. I also had an adjunct professor at Wake Forest University School of Medicine write one of my recommendations. I'm much more likely to believe and listen to both of them than I am to the naysayers on this forum, many of whom need to get their heads out of their asses.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
These same doctors begged me not to apply abroad, but I did anyway. I will be an FMG myself. I don't know if it's true that my education will suffer for it. Neither do you.

This is Unsubstantiated Claim #2 in your post, again based only on what you anticipate might or might not occur. I made this decision knowing full-well what I was getting myself into. I'm not really concerned about what you based your decisions on.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
It's medicine, not baseball. There aren't statistics for everything.

This is Unsubstantiated Claim #3 of your post. Firstly, we're talking about unsubstantiated bias against IMGs - not "everything". Nonetheless, I think if you'd do a little research, instead of just stating what you think (like SO many people like to do on this forum... jeezus, these people are going to call themselves doctors someday!), you'd find that there are studies on JUST about everything having to do with medicine and medical care - studies that DON'T support differences in practice trends among FMGs and AMGs, and studies that DO show bias and the need to correct maladjusted attitudes about FMGs. I've posted some of these for you already. You've only provided a fallacious syllogism.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
But apparently opinions are pretty important b/c they are what make it so difficult for FMGs to get top residencies. People are stating things that they've heard. That's a fact, "I heard." Yes I DID HEAR IT. THE FACT THAT I HEARD IT IS A FACT!

Unsubstantiated Claim #4. You seem to be having a lot of problems with this concept - a FACT that someone has "heard" someone's opinion does not make that opinion a fact. Do you understand that? Read that again a couple of times to make sure.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
The reason med schools on the islands continue to get applicants is because there will always be people who didn't get accepted to US schools. The reason the island school grads get worse residencies is due to the belief that their education makes them less valuable. Deal with it.

This is Unsubstantiated Claim #5 of your poor attempt at a response. Again, I'd please ask you to define what "worse residency" means. Are these not ACGME certified training centers? Do you believe that EVERY student wants to go to Hopkins or Mass General or Stanford to do their residency and gets that choice? Do all U.S. students turn down residencies in Opthamology, Dermatology, and Neurosurgery? Do you also think that no FMGs get choice positions in competitive programs? Do you believe that there are separate hospitals JUST for FMGs to do their training (like there are for DOs)? Are FMGs educations, despite their passing the boards and getting a U.S. residency, truly less valuable? Just please, PLEASE back up your statements with some data.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
P.S. How do we know the article you attached wasn't written by some ignorant militant FMG like yourself.

This is Unsubstantiated Claim #6 of your post, is pure ad hominem, and unworthy of a honest response.

Since so many of you are having problems seeing through your own opinions for the facts and instead opting to attack me, here are some clear observations that will hopefully make you understand things a little better:

(1) There is a lot of misconception about what goes on in foreign medical training, especially the Caribbean - some idiots actually believe that we simply show-up, lay on the beach for two years, then "buy" our medical degrees.

(2) There is rampant bias against IMGs, as is evidenced by not only expressed opinions on their purported abilities, but also in the selection for residency positions - I'm not arguing that this is not the case, and have provided evidence, factually based, that shows this to be occurring - but I grew-up being told not to hate or look down on people just because they were a different color than me; this is the textbook defintion of prejudice - can everyone grasp that? After all, am I learning a "different" medicine than the AMGs? I either know this stuff or I don't... I'll either pass the boards or I won't (which brings me to my next point...)

(3) We take and have to pass the EXACT SAME licensure requirements of AMGs. If I get a 182 on Step I, then that speaks for itself. But, if I get a 245, it is nothing more than, again, prejudice against me that keeps me from getting a good spot. But, many Carib grads do - contrary to popular belief - get VERY competitive residencies at strong institutions. So, why should the fact that they did part of their training in the Caribbean be held against them?

(4) The Caribbean is what I like to call "Medical Purgatory". A lot of people go offshore and don't survive. I don't have the time to worry about them, frankly. If you make the decision to go Caribbean, understand that it comes with a lot of requisite baggage - as many posters have more than amply illustrated. But, if I prove myself on the wards by showing-up, doing what I need to do, and show myself to be a capable physician - which I have NO doubt that I will - then, if someone still wants to hold my IMG degree against me, they are nothing more than a medical biggot. And, in my book, this is akin to failing to give a job to someone simply because of their skin color, and nothing more.

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Hey Skip Intro- I think I'm beginning to understand why you are in the carribean. If you're going to argue that failing 20% of the students out of school is indicative of a good education, please let me know where you practice so I won't go there!

This, casual reader, deserves it's own separate response.

PnkJnky:

You need to read up on logic. I'm very concerned that you are going to be a doctor someday and cannot see the incredible fallacies in the above statement.

First off, I won't address the personal attacks, they are just pointless and indicative of your maturity level. But, I think that you have either skipped, failed to comprehend, or just plain don't get the basic concept about Ross. Ross admits students and gives them a chance who otherwise might not have been able to pursue their medical education. Once here they have to prove themselves. If they are incapable of staying up with the course work and being competitive, they will not survive.

Secondly, if I were to survive a program - and in fact do well - that is so competitive that a large number of students don't make it, wouldn't that argue the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you're suggesting?

Lastly, once I'm finished here, do you think that I immediately start practicing medicine? Do you know how medical school works? From what I understand ( ), you have to do a residency first at an ACGME site in the U.S. in order to sit for Step III and full licensure. Residencies are, at a minimum, three years and will allow you to practice in that specialty. Following that, you have to continually keep up with CME's pretty much for the rest of your practicing life. As well, there are specialty test if you want to sit for board certification, etc., etc. Also, you can do fellowships at other institutions. So, do you still think Ross is the entirety of my education? Are all AMGs automatically ready to practice on their own when the graduate from a U.S. medical school? Or, are you now indicting the entire U.S. medical training system?

 

[IRON_DUKE]

Well written Skip Intro .

 

[IRON_DUKE]

Alleged Facts :


10 percent of Med Students in the U.S. fail

20 Percent of Med Students in the Carib Fail

80 Percent of Med Students in Latin America Fail

Do not apply for residency in the state of TEXAS

There are thousands of IMGs in the US , working and many dont know it , even though they supposedly are not real doctors .


There is Bias against IMGs.................................

What else can we add to this list ?

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by PnkJnky
You are not so bright.

Unsupported ad hominem, but at least the feeling is mutual.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
What I said is that I heard from doctors that the education at Ross sucks.

And, on what do they base this opinion? Since they are unwilling to accept Ross grads and feel that the program "sucks", how would they actually know?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
The very same doctors who make decisions about your placement of residency.

Only if I want to do my training in Dallas, which I currently have no intention of doing.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
One of them is related to me and still did not think he could get me a residency at his hospital if I graduate from Ross.

It would really suck if I was you, then, wouldn't it (and in more ways than one)?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Here's the part you're having trouble understanding: If you fail out 20% of your students, there's something wrong with your teaching!

Unsubstantiated Claim #7. What about the 80% who graduate from Ross, pass the boards, and go on to be practising physicians in the U.S.? No, the problem is the person who made the choice to come down here, didn't take the curriculum seriously, and failed because he/she thought that they were going to, like many people who don't understand this program, "buy" their medical degree.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Are you trying to tell me that it's harder at Ross...

Not at all, and again you've completely missed the point.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
yet those who do get decent grades are still discriminated against.

The fact that someone can score a 230+ on Step I and have that not be good enough to even be considered for certain programs points, in my opinion, to discrimination. Yes.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Yes, your training will continue after Ross, and unless you happen to get lucky (which is probably why the Ivy Leaguer said GOOD LUCK!) you will do your residency at some site sonsidered to be substandard.

Please point out, from the following list of residencies attained by Ross graduates this past year, which of the following programs are subpar:

University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences
University of Connecticut
Mt. Sinai School of Medicine
University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey
New York Hospital Medical Center
Indiana University School of Medicine
University of Maryland Medical Center
Temple University
Louisiana State University School of Medicine
St. Louis University School of Medicine
University of Tennessee College of Medicine-Memphis
Medical College of Virginia
University of Rochester/Strong Memorial Hospital
MCP Hahnemann University Hospital
Michigan State University
University of Massachusetts Medical School
University of Buffalo
George Washington University
Medical College of Georgia
University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
Mayo Clinic Graduate School of Medicine
East Tennessee State University
University of Kentucky Medical Center
Texas Tech University Health Science Center
West Virginia University Hospital
UIH University of Illinois College of Medicine
University of Louisville School of Medicine
Rush-Presbyterian-St Lukes
Ohio State University
New York Queen Cornell School of Medicine
University of Minnesota
Albany Medical College
University of Alabama
University of Southern California
University of Texas Medical School
Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, Los Angeles, CA
Georgetown University Hospital
Einstein/Montefiore Medical Center
University of Texas Medical Branch-Galveston
University of Oklahoma
University of Kansas Medical Center
University of Cincinnati
Cleveland Clinic
Duke University (Southern Regional)
Seton Hall University School of Graduate Medical Education
University of Tennessee Graduate School of Medicine,
Knoxville, TN
Case Western Reserve University Hospital
Wright State University School of Medicine
Penn State University - Milton S. Hershey Medical Center
State University of New York Health Science Center-Syracuse

And, after you've made your selections, why don't you write the Dean of each of these medical schools and tell them that their programs are substandard?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
As logic would go, subpar education--subpar residency--subpar doctor...am I wrong.

Yes, and you are uninformed.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
The personal attacks on you are well-deserved in my opinion...

Yeah, you're gonna make a really great doctor.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
... because I've watched you attempt to run people on this site way too long.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Please elaborate. All I'm trying to do is expose people's unfounded bias and ask them to back it up with facts. How is that "running" people, whatever that means?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Seriously, I shadowed these doctors in the ER, on IM rounds and in rehab therapy. IT IS A FACT THAT THEY TOLD ME NOT TO GO TO ROSS!!!! Maybe you don't understand what I'm saying. The fact is that they told me this. It's not my opinion that they told me this. I was there! It really happened. As far as unleashing you on their email address...I doubt it!

The only thing you've proved to me so far is that there are perhaps a lot of uninformed, egotistical jerks in the greater Dallas area. On the list from Ross' website, I noticed that there weren't any residency spots offered in Dallas to Ross grads... hmmmm. Maybe, instead of you, your friends can call the Deans at the above schools and inform them that they think their programs are subpar. Maybe we need the greater Dallas medical establishment to form new mandates how medical education will be conducted in the U.S.? What do you think?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Your not really worth my time...

Ha! I love it when posters say such things after a pseudo-grandeloquent response.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
... what would make you think they would want to argue points with you. Apply for Residency anywhere in Dallas and I'm sure you'll meet with them, as they shuffle your dumb ass out of their offices.

What makes you think that I even remotely want to apply for residency in Dallas? I've been to Dallas a lot when I was working in the pharmaceutical industry. Besides Deep Ellum, it pretty much sucks in my opinion. I've found that Dallas natives are generally rude, elitist, self-centered, egotistical, and - if you didn't go to UT or A&M, you're pretty much an auslander anyway. What makes you think I would even remotely consider Dallas?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
By the way, if you'll try reading my posts, I've said all along that it was opinion.

Good. I'm glad you cleared that up. Now, if I can only convince all the other countless people with such unfounded opinions, like yourself, that they are wrong, I will have done my job.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
What I'm trying to get into your head is that it is an opinion that may effect the rest of your medical career, whether deserved or not!

Yes, and that is very sad, especially when it's based on misinformation, bias, and prejudice.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
You knew what you were getting into? Maybe, but can you show me a statistic that shows that graduates from Ross get equal treatment when it comes to residency spots? No, you can prove the exact opposite.

Well, I can show you (as I did above) many of the programs that DO accept Ross graduates. Feel free to check yourself. There are a lot of Internal Medicine spots, Family Practice, but there are a fair share of surgery and anesthesiology spots. Yes, I know what I was getting into and I know what I want to do with my life. Unfortunately, I also know that I'll have to - hopefully only rarely - deal with prejudiced, uninformed people like yourslef.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Why is that? Because you are considered to be less qualified!

Unsubstantiated Claim #8.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
What is another reason? Please...pay attention. What I'm saying is that these opinions exist--there's the fact "that the opinions exist" b/c I've heard them firsthand.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I won't be meeting up with some your your overly opinionated, elitist, arrogant friends in Dallas. Big deal.

(cont'd)

 

[Skip Intro]

PART II:
---------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by PnkJnky
I think in your case, with your inability to understand the written word, they may be right!

This is just a laughable attempt at discrediting me. I think that everyone else reading this will be the judge of who "gets it" and who doesn't. And, those who happen to agree with you are probably equally biased and prejudiced and equally don't know what they're talking about.

PLEASE JUST PROVIDE SOME CLEAR, GOOD DATA - NOT BASED ON SOMEONE'S UNINFORMED OPINION - THAT SHOWS THAT CARIB GRADS ARE INFERIOR DOCTORS!

Originally posted by PnkJnky
By the way, I'm not stating what I think...READ!!!

You are reiterating other opinions that you heard and offering them as acceptable. That is tantamount to thinking them to be true and believing in them, regardless whether or not you yourself are a Carib student.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
I said I don't know if the quality of education is equal. I never will, because I won't attend both types of schools. Thus, I'm not stating what I think. What I think really doesn't matter. I'm stating what the people who just might interview you (at a very specific two hospitals in dallas) think. I think it's pretty important for you to listen up and prepare yourself for REALITY.

Listen: We are taught by U.S. and Canadian M.D.s and PhDs. We use ALL the same books that U.S. medical schools use. We do all of our training at U.S. hospitals side-by-side with U.S. medical students. Apparently, there are more than a few PDs who believe that the training is sufficient to warrant admission to their program.

And, please tell me which two specific hospitals in Dallas they are so I can be sure not to send any applications there... since I had my heart so set on going to Dallas.

And, what makes you think I'm not prepared for reality? What is this "reality" that everyone is telling me about but not providing anything more than opinion on? After 2 years hands-on experience working in an ER as a Tech, I worked in clinical research for almost seven years before I came to Ross. I interacted with literally hundreds of hospitals across the U.S. and Canada. I worked with D.O.s, IMGs, U.S. AMGs, Canadian docs, NPs, PAs... you name it. How do you think I made my connections? Where do you think I'm getting my opinions (and, more importantly, facts) from? All I've heard so far is "empty conjecture" and "recirculated gossip" that people are happy to post here but not willing to own up to themselves.

And, the only people I worry about in my rotations are my future uninformed, snippy little superiority-complex harboring colleagues who'll automatically think they're better than me because they went to a U.S. school. And, even then, I don't worry much...

 

[lola]

give it up skippy. you are so ridiculous it's almost amusing. shouldn't you be studying?

 

[BellKicker]

Have we seen this discussion before? Like in 25 other threads maybe.

Skip, you're coming off like a guy with a monster chip on his shoulder. Living well is the best revenge, remember?

Iron Duke, I just have to say that you impress me. I remember when I was traveling in Mexico (an eternity ago) and someone told me about Americans going to guadelajara (sp?) for med school. I almost didn't believe that someone would leave their country for so long to go to school. Now I realize that tons of people do. Hanging out here makes one think that's what everyone does . Still, that's one tough road to take and it sounds like you're doing good. I've heard that you can walk straight into many residencies being fluent in Spanish so there's gotta be a nice shining light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by PnkJnky
I don't need data.

Yeah, you're gonna make a GREAT doctor...

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Where's yours?

Perhaps you missed my links earlier... (and, I'll be happy to provide data that shows between 1988 and 1996 the increase in non-U.S. citizen foreign doctors training in the U.S. rose 531% while U.S. IMGs actually declined about 27%... but, at a later time. I actually do have some studying to do - but, suffice it to say that COGME thinks there are plenty enough doctors in the U.S. while they recommend that you basically see a PA or CRNP for your common, day-to-day problems. Is this what the average American really wants?)

Originally posted by PnkJnky
What I feel is sufficient is the opinions of those who may hold your fate in their hands.

And, while where at it, why don't we start making black people sit at the back of the bus again? And, how about we force all the homosexuals in the U.S. back into the closet too, because, God knows, they're deviants, right?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
That is enough...it is their opinion of you that determines your future in medicine.

This is just a sad, sad statement right here.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
No I won't go carribean.

Bully for you! Apparently you missed my comment about me not caring what other people, including yourself, choose. What I am concerned about is misconception and prejudice, though. I think that this has been amply illustrated on this post.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Reality is this: You want to say it takes data to prove whether or not your particular med school is equal with those of america. This is not the fact. It is the opinion of many boards that these school are not as good.

Unsubstantiated Claim #9. I never made an assertion that they were equal, better, or "worse". What I said is that the training is the same ultimately. Furthermoer, so it's clear, it is up to the individual how good of a doctor one becomes. And, if someone goes abroad (wherever be it Caribbean or Europe, etc.), comes back and crushes the boards, it is just plain bias, prejudice, and elitism not to accept that person into a "choice" program because they simply did their training outside of the U.S.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
It is these very opinions that will keep you out of a ton of residencies you might want (unless you REALLY EXCEL!) That is a fact, regardless of the quality of education.

Why is this the case? Just explain this to me logically. Why if someone proves him/herself by doing extremely well on the USMLE Step I & II, the "great equalizers". Why is it when Ross and SGU have, on average, 80-94% first time pass rates (compared to about 50-55% for other non-U.S. IMGs) that there is such blacklisting of these students. Why can someone who went to a U.S. medical school get a lower score and still have more options available? I think I know. It's called protectionism and xenophobia. I think that the U.S. medical establishment is afraid to admit that their elitist medical training system isn't as superior as they like to think it is... perhaps?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
So, your wasting time arguing (and rather poorly) a point that is completely irrelevant.

Yes, I realize that this is probably a fool's errand. But, I also know that I have a lot more experience in the "real world" than many of you do. And, I also know that, for the most part, the tremendous concerns about "quality" that everyone alludes to but can't seem to factually support are wholly unfounded.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
FACT: You will be looked down on by many. FACT: You might be passed over for residency positions strictly because you are an FMG. Nothing else really matters.

Again, this is just a sad, sad statement. How many great doctors out there are passed over by more competitive programs simply because they didn't happen to go to a U.S. school?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
It doesn't seem your ego will ever be shattered so what do you care?

This isn't really about my ego as much as it is about every other PD who thinks his fecal material doesn't smell just like mine.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
You may be the perfect type to deal with being and FMG, but from what I've heard out of you, nobody will be changing their minds about these programs any time soon.

Yes, I realize that most people are arrogant and recalcitrant in their self-formed and often unsupported opinions.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
By the way, why with your extensive experience and tons of connections are you going to Ross?

Time. Deciding to go back to medical school, although I pondered for it for years, was a late decision for me born out of years of being underemployed in the pharma industry and not having any real opportunities for longterm advancement. And, this program is faster. I'm not 23 anymore. Getting an MD is a means to an end to me. I already know a lot when it comes to clinical and medical, especially from the research side. I wasn't going to waste another year and a half retaking the MCAT, play the AMCAS game again, and then still not have the certainty of whether or not I would get and admission due to the often whimsical nature of the admissions process at most schools. Ross was as good of a program that I could get into without having to retake the MCAT (which I took in 1993 and score a 28 on, BTW, and that was prior to finishing my Physics course). And, they accepted me, believe it or not, only after I was waitlisted.

See, I will answer your questions. Why don't you try answering some of mine instead of just blathering out more opinion? Should I re-list them for you?

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by BellKicker
Skip, you're coming off like a guy with a monster chip on his shoulder. Living well is the best revenge, remember?

Monster chip on my shoulder?!?? HA! It's funny how the underdog is always perceived as being the Rosa Parks type... who won't sit down and take everyone else's unsubstantiated opinions about what's right and acceptable.

And, it's funny how one is perceived as having a "chip on their shoulder" when they ask other people to support their opinions, especially after the accusee has done the same.

"Prejudice, in its ordinary and literal sense, is prejudging any question without having sufficiently examined it, and adhering to our opinion upon it through ignorance, malice, or perversity, in spite of every evidence to the contrary.

...

Prejudice, in short, is egotism: we see a part, and substitute it for the whole; a thing strikes us casually and by halves, and we would have the universe stand proxy for our decision, in order to rivet it more firmly in our own belief; however insufficient or sinister the grounds of our opinions, we would persuade ourselves that they arise out of the strongest conviction, and are entitled to unqualified approbation; slaves of our own prejudices, caprice, ignorance, we would be lords of the understandings and reason of others; and (strange infatuation!) taking up an opinion solely from our own narrow and partial point of view, without consulting the feelings of others, or the reason of things, we are still uneasy if all the world do not come into our way of thinking.

...

Any impression, however absurd, or however we may have imbibed it, by being repeated and indulged in, becomes an article of implicit and incorrigible belief. The point to consider is, how we have first taken it up, whether from ourselves or the arbitrary dictation of others."

-William Hazlitt

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by lola
give it up skippy. you are so ridiculous it's almost amusing. shouldn't you be studying?

Thanks, lola, for another entirely superfluous, inconsequential, and thoughtless post on the subject. I'm so impressed by how much thought you've put into what I've said. Really, it speaks volumes about how much you've thought about the subject.

 

[IRON_DUKE]

Bell Kicker :


Boy is it hard ??????????????? Oh yes it is . I mean I am not in mexico but all the same its very hard to leave the land you love , in this case Florida , and learn a different language and surroundings , etc ......

Then have to deal with day in and day out all the pressures involved in becoming a M.D. in a foreign land , and praying to GOD that you can cross over to the U.S. .

I really dont ask GOD for all that much . I would be happy to get into any residency there is available for me . To me it does not matter if its in okeechobee , floridas county hospital . Just as long as its not babyland general delivering CABBAGE PATCH KIDS .


Sure it urrrks me to read about how low of a quality education I am getting , considering the fact that I know the long hours and all the effort I am putting into this . I have been around other US students that came from really good schools , and with GPAs to boast about . They are all gone now . Does this mean they could not cut it here ? NO . There are many factors that contribute to a person jetting .

Let me make this cristal clear : I am getting no breaks , short cuts , free beez , chances , do overs , by being here . All the contrary , here the system is as I have posted many times : THE MORE STUDENTS YOU FAIL , THE BETTER RATED YOUR SCHOOL IS . END OF STORY .

So of course I can understand where others get the same feeling when the school they go to gets put down . Cause folks its not only the school , its the effort you make to stay and pass at that school .

Not everyone in the world who applies to a US med school deserves to be there . Not everyone who applies to a US med school are always the ones with the highest GPAs .

Because you have book smarts , does not always mean you will be the best in the real world . One thing is a cadaver and another is a live human being .

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Also, you take things too far with the blacks and gays. I would use them to prove me point exactly. Blacks and gays are discriminated against, correct? Do you think they walk around and ask if racism does exist? Do you think they deny the fact that it will effect their future lives? Do you think they want data that supports the biases claims of racist people? No, because that is a waste of time.

So, you think it is a waste of time to talk about bias and discrimination then? So, it was a waste of time for Medgar Evers to call attention to the rampant discrimination in Mississippi schools? Thanks to people like you, we'd still be living in the 1950's where blacks had to drink from separate water fountains and could not eat in the same restaurants as whites. Oh yes, I think the analogy is QUITE appropriate, if not a little over the top.

What I'm trying to accomplish here is to make you (and anyone else who reads this) think. Are these opinions truly your opinions, or echoes of what you've heard from others? Have you adopted them without question? Do you really think they are justified and supportable? Do you think it's "right" that a very competitive Carib grad gets openly discriminated against when it comes to residency selection?

You like to preach a lot, but you don't like to answer questions. Why not start by showing me which program, on the list previously provided, is subpar?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
They might attempt to lead normal lives and change a few minds in the meantime. You are a terrible advocate, in my OPINION, for FMG's and hope you are long gone from this board by the time I graduate.

Ha, ha! Don't count on it. As long as there is prejudice and bias going on, I'm not going anywhere. Heck, I might just start popping over to the Allopathic forum just for kicks.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
And why is it that you wouldn't be guaranteed acceptance to an american school? You were so good as a tech? You made so many connections? Yet you feared rejection? Somethings not adding up! Sounds like your numbers aren't too good...please do FMG's a favor a put a cork in it.

All I know is that, when I applied the first time via AMCAS, after taking the $180 MCAT, spending about $500 on my AMCAS application fee, spending about $700-800 on supplemental applications, spending about another $1000 going on an interview, I wasn't going to play that "game" again without certainty of admission. A friend of mine (who attended the same undergrad program at a very competitive state university) who had the same grades as I did, the EXACT same MCAT score, and essentially the same EC activities (etc.) got an admission to a U.S. school... and, I didn't even get an interview... I knew the whole thing was rigged. Or, how about the other guy in my class who cheated his way through second semester Organic Chem, got a "6" on the Biological Science MCAT, and still got an acceptance. Yeah, I was ready to play that game again after being out of school for eight years. Also, I was old enough and wise enough to know, after asking SEVERAL practicing physicians and working with many other doctors - both foreign and U.S. trained, that it really doesn't ultimately matter where you do your M.D. so long as you get a decent residency. Yes, I do have connections that will help me very much come residency time thank you very much.

Show me again which of those schools is subpar?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
You're doing nothing but making yourself and other FMG's look stupid. By the way, PAY ATTENTION! I have never said that the education is subpar. I simply said that is the opinion of many. I've heard it firsthand.

PAY ATTENTION YOURSELF! I don't CARE what you PERSONALLY think, but you are adept at expressing OTHER people's opinions on this forum which makes me believe that YOU'VE adopted them without thinking about them very much. If you yourself don't believe them, then why not do some more investigation, find out for yourself whether or not the allegations are true, and then state and defend your own opinions?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
So, regardless of your whining and posting of completely irrelevant facts, it will continue to be the case until somebody proves them way wrong.

I think that: (a) posters like Annette have shown that they ARE wrong, and (b) they will never be proven wrong when people like yourself continue to recirculate them. Here's a scenario I've posted before - Let's say I'm rotating with a group of colleagues and I tell them that I went to Harvard. I make a mistake. Do you think they're are going to say that Harvard sucks and I'm just a stupid Harvard grad? No! They will give me the benefit of the doubt and only chastise me if I make the same mistake twice. Now, suppose I go in and say I'm a Caribbean grad. I make a mistake. Do you think I'm going to get that same benefit of the doubt? I certainly don't. Do you see the inherent bias? Or, will you now try to argue that Harvard grads don't make mistakes? (BTW, none of the literature supports the fact that Carib/IMG vs. any other AMG makes any more mistakes than any other one - so, why does this myth continue to be perpetuated - i.e., that Carib docs are inferior?)

Originally posted by PnkJnky
When you go to a doctor, what do you get? His opinion. You might hear something else from another doctor on the same illness. I think it's time you begin to show a little respect to opinions, considering you'll soon be using yours to make life and death decisions.

Yes, but when I got to a doctor I expect his opinion to be based in fact. If two doctors cannot agree on the same diagnosis for a patient, then obviously one of them is wrong.

 

[IRON_DUKE]

O.K.

 

[Stinky T]

Originally posted by Skip Intro


So, you think it is a waste of time to talk about bias and discrimination then? So, it was a waste of time for Medgar Evers to call attention to the rampant discrimination in Mississippi schools? Thanks to people like you, we'd still be living in the 1950's where blacks had to drink from separate water fountains and could not eat in the same restaurants as whites. Oh yes, I think the analogy is QUITE appropriate, if not a little over the top.

I really don't think it's fair for you to draw these analogies and some might even find it offensive (including myself). Yes, directors of US residencies do favor graduates of US medical schools. Many people don't really see anything wrong with this. There are financial incentives from the US government to do so amongst other things. US medical schools produce physicians from a set of standards and a curriculum that US residency directors are familiar with. While Ross may have a rigoruous curriculum, most residency directors don't know this and probably don't care. Additionally, I really don't think it is their responsibility either to learn about the curriculums and qualities of schools outside of the US. Every year there are applicants to US residencies from hundreds of different countries. How is a director to know what standards these medical schools have for their students? You gave an example of a Caribbean grad who scores higher on the USMLE than his US counterpart and getting passed over. What does a higher USMLE alone really say when directors have doubts about the entire four years of a FMG's education? Yes, it is impressive when one obtains a high score; however, residency directors are aware of the fact that many FMGs spend much more time (months to a year) preparing for the USMLE than US medical students. A director might wonder what the curriculum is like during the first two years and during clinicals? You can say they are excellent until you are blue in the face, but residency directors aren't gonna just take your word for it. There are countries where their medical community is held in high regard (Canada, England, Japan, etc.) and there aren't as many doubts; the Caribbean schools are not considered one of them. Other factors are that residency directors fear that having Caribbean grads in their program hurts their reputation. The director of my TY program took great pride in the fact that we only had one FMG and he qualified it with a "he was an Orthopod in his country". Anyway, my point is that these viewpoints are real and are some of the reasons why not all MDs are the same. This was the question wasn't it? The question wasn't whether or not it was fair that FMGs are passed over for AMGs with lower USMLE scores.

Also, while Ross may fail 20% of its students and you are the cream of the crop, what is the crop? The medical students you are competing with are certainly not as competitive as the ones from US Medical schools.

Fact: State medical schools favor applicants from their state with lower MCAT scores and GPA. Do you think Adcom members of these schools would've also favored separate water fountains as well? Your suggestions are just plain wrong and to say the two are the same (favoring an AMG and racism) is really selfish and immature, in my opinion.

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by Stinky Tofu


I really don't think it's fair for you to draw these analogies and some might even find it offensive (including myself). Yes, directors of US residencies do favor graduates of US medical schools. Many people don't really see anything wrong with this. There are financial incentives from the US government to do so amongst other things. US medical schools produce physicians from a set of standards and a curriculum that US residency directors are familiar with. While Ross may have a rigoruous curriculum, most residency directors don't know this and probably don't care. Additionally, I really don't think it is their responsibility either to learn about the curriculums and qualities of schools outside of the US. Every year there are applicants to US residencies from hundreds of different countries. How is a director to know what standards these medical schools have for their students? You gave an example of a Caribbean grad who scores higher on the USMLE than his US counterpart and getting passed over. What does a higher USMLE alone really say when directors have doubts about the entire four years of a FMG's education? Yes, it is impressive when one obtains a high score; however, residency directors are aware of the fact that many FMGs spend much more time (months to a year) preparing for the USMLE than US medical students. A director might wonder what the curriculum is like during the first two years and during clinicals? You can say they are excellent until you are blue in the face, but residency directors aren't gonna just take your word for it. There are countries where their medical community is held in high regard (Canada, England, Japan, etc.) and there aren't as many doubts; the Caribbean schools are not considered one of them. Other factors are that residency directors fear that having Caribbean grads in their program hurts their reputation. The director of my TY program took great pride in the fact that we only had one FMG and he qualified it with a "he was an Orthopod in his country". Anyway, my point is that these viewpoints are real and are some of the reasons why not all MDs are the same. This was the question wasn't it? The question wasn't whether or not it was fair that FMGs are passed over for AMGs with lower USMLE scores.

Also, while Ross may fail 20% of its students and you are the cream of the crop, what is the crop? The medical students you are competing with are certainly not as competitive as the ones from US Medical schools.

Fact: State medical schools favor applicants from their state with lower MCAT scores and GPA. Do you think Adcom members of these schools would've also favored separate water fountains as well? Your suggestions are just plain wrong and to say the two are the same (favoring an AMG and racism) is really selfish and immature, in my opinion.

Finally an intelligent response! Thank you! I will get back to it later, but I have got bigger fish to fry at the moment...

And, please at least acknowledge that I clearly indicated that my "racism" example was "over the top". (No offense intended to anyone who may be "other than caucasian" who was reading this - I'm trying to make people think about what they think, why they think it, and where they may have gotten those perceptions; that's all. Seems to be a lot of "shooting from the hip" on this forum. And, you can see the kind of reaction my responses have gotten. I DO appreciate your more thoughtful response. More to come later...)

 

[IRON_DUKE]

I cant agree with the part that foreign med students may take months or even years to prepare for the USMLE [

Even though this may be true , but you cant compare the educational plan that is geared towards AMGs , that actually semi prepare you for the boards vs. IMGs whose educational plan has no reason to be geared towards the USMLE , since in that country there is no USMLE . So what purpose would it serve to have these people studying for something they may never take ?

And as far as Mds not being MDs ......................well I cant agree with that posture since , in reality medicine is a universal language .

 

[Arunski]

I'm sorta curious, how are residency programs ranked in terms of quality...is there like a US News and World Reports list or something? How can we look at Skip's list of Ross Residencies and determine which one's are subpar...I think looking into that would be quite helpful to this 'discussion'.

-Arunski

 

[IRON_DUKE]

Good Point .


Maybe someone has more info on this .

 

[IRON_DUKE]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:


anyone have accsess to this info , can you post it ?

 

[Skip Intro]

Okay, I'm back. And, unfortunately, I see that PnkJnky is so desperately trying to vainly prove some point, that he's trying to search for residency lists... Don't waste your time; no foreign school will ever show up on such a list.

But, don't worry. I'm going to lay it all out for you right now, and in five parts. Hopefully, by the end, you'll see the error of your ways (along with many others) and offer me an apology. Or, you'll just fall back to your comfortable paradigm and try to start flaming me again. Either way, I don't care. What I'm about to say speaks for itself.

PART 1 - The Background

Okay, let's start by reviewing how we got to this point in the discussion...

I think IRON_DUKE started the thread in order to make a very valid point:

Originally posted by IRON_DUKE
I am not going to start the AMG vs. IMG thing , cause frankly I dont see the logic behind it .

I agree, IRON_DUKE; I don't either. But, somehow we got derailed...

Originally posted by BellKicker
I think few people actually believe that American Med schools are better than other places in the world. Actually, I haven't seen anyone state that on these boards.

...

What they ARE saying is that chances for US GRADS to land good US RESIDENCIES are good. Would anyone ever suggest that every single med school in the US is better than every single med school in Brazil? No. But is it easier to get a residency in the US? Yes.

Counterpoint 1: I disagree. I think MANY people falsely believe, speaking from position of high opinion and little information (as evidenced in subsequent responses on this thread), that at least the Caribbean route is inferior.

Counterpoint 2: Yes, USMGs have a better chance of getting a choice spot than someone from the Carib, for instance, despite the fact that the Carib grad may even have higher board scores. But, that begs the question: WHY?

IRON_DUKE picked-up on BellKicker's gentle transition, despite the fact that he didn?t initially want to go down this road, and offered:

Originally posted by IRON_DUKE
But I keep reading about how IMGs are looked down upon................ and why are they being looked down upon ?

Can be only one supposedly JUSTIFIED reason , and that is that the ones doing the looking down automatically think that IMGs are less educated .

Yes, IRON_DUKE, this is a keen observation, and is amply illustrated by some of the more colorful personal-attack-masquerading-as-response offered by lola and PnkJnky, among others. However, none of those reasons are really justified. Many people make false assumptions about how someone is trained outside the U.S., what their motivations were for going that route, and then automatically believe that such training can't possibly be anything other than inferior.

Originally posted by IRON_DUKE
people view u.s. foreign medical graduates (particularly those from the caribbean) as not as good, because most of them went abroad b/c they couldn't get into schools in the u.s. the admissions standards are much lower for some, if not all (i don't know for sure), caribbean schools.

Again, I would argue that this is what lola (like many others, as she points out) also believes herself even though she doesn't claim to be expressing her own opinions. The fact is that there are more than enough qualified applicants to U.S. schools for too few spots. This does not, by what would only be false association and erroneous leap of logic, confer that (a) those people should not be doctors, (b) are incapable of learning medicine, and (c) that the education they ultimately get is inferior. I don?t think anyone is directly arguing that, but there are so many other twisted assertions offered without serious introspection?

Some other facts:

The "first time" USLME 1 and 2 pass rates are significantly higher for Caribbean students than they are for other "true FMGs". US IMGs get many very competitive PGY spots at good, dare I say excellent, programs at medical universities in the U.S. There remains a clear bias against US IMGs especially at some institutions, but the basis for that bias is not substantiated in the data that's been collected to date.

I will hopefully make a case (later in this post) why I believe, in part, that this may be happening. As you?ll hopefully see, it's up to each of you, in part, to make it stop.

Before I move on to Part 2, I want to make a few general statements about the attitudes and posting styles of some of the members of this forum. I find it very amusing that people get so tetchy when they are questioned about statements concerning why they believe what they believe ? or, worse, reiterating statements that they?ve heard from others, accepting them as valid, and not really questioning them further even when prompted. Instead of an honest, thoughtful response, they'll say such demeaning and contradictory things as, "caribbean medical students are the butt of many jokes. not my jokes, but other people's jokes" which is then immediately followed by, "after the dialogue between you people, i'm starting to think maybe it's rightfully so?" Do people think that offering a spurious disclaimer and excuse prior to making a gratuitously nasty statement is justifiable and intellectually honest? Do people think that other readers are so unclever that they can't see through such a transparent and pathetic attempt at diverting criticism before issuing a supercilious comment?

Here's some good, general advice that will serve well whomever needs to hear it for the rest of their life: If you aren't prepared to defend a statement, then don't make it - a LOT of people read these forums and no one should go off half-cocked, especially if they haven't thought what they are saying all the way through.

Essentially, at this point, the flame war started. And, please note that, for the record, not only was it not me who started it (I kept all my posts speaking to the facts and requesting clarification - only attempting to point out the fallacies of others logic to prove a point ? and apparently a lot of people who are quick to preach can?t handle the responsibility that goes along with that). For, a full recount of how this started, please refer back to the beginning of the thread. I think that sufficient groundwork has been laid now to get this discussion back on track. Nonetheless, I will fully respond to a few of the later posts to which I have not yet responded.

Also, please note that when this forum was apparently down and being upgraded to a newer version of UBB, it appears that many responses were lost. (I had a similar experience on different forum, of which I'm also a member, when they upgraded as well. I think the gist of the discussion, though, has not been lost and we can continue from this point forward.)

 

[Skip Intro]

Part 2 - The Logical Fallacies

I was particularly amused by the series of laughable excuses offered as ?thought process? by PnkJnky. Let's recount a few of these for everyone:

Originally posted by PnkJnky
...you would be able to find MANY MANY posts sharing opinions that carribean schools are of lower quality education than american schools.

Yes, okay? So, you?ve demonstrated that there are a lot of people who harbor opinions without basing them in reality or supporting them very well.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
If that's not enough for ya, why do you think someone with the same GPA and board score graduating as an AMG will get the residency over an IMG?

I don't know. I think that's what the discussion is centered around. So, if you know, why don't "ya" tell us all?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
No, it's the belief that the education is of a lower caliber. Yeah, face it, that is the only reason for bias.

OH! Is it really? Well, I'm going to make ANOTHER argument pretty soon (so, keep reading) that it's the opinion of misinformed, arrogant people that are the real culprits behind much of this misconception.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
So, you might want to focus on changing people's opinions of FMG rather than denying that they exist.

Pray tell, how do I change the opinion of someone who's already made up his/her mind without the slightest shred of real evidence - in fact, often ignoring the evidence ? instead choosing only to believe re-circulated hearsay and gossip? How does one go about changing your mind, since you so clearly know state based on the people you put your faith in that "the education is of a lower caliber", another fallacy I will soon blow out of the water with, yes - you guessed it, real data and not just unsupported opinion. Stay tuned...

Now, everyone recall that PnkJnky also went on to say this:

Originally posted by PnkJnky
It's really no secret that many consider carribean schools subpar education. I'm sorry but that is a fact

No, it?s only a "fact" that they have that "opinion." Because they have that opinion does not, in and of itself, make that opinion valid. Please attempt to understand the distinction.

But, then he/she quickly disclaims?

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Whether it's true or not I can't say b/c I've not yet attended either type of school.

So, why are you repeating it here? Instead of all the extra effort you put into saying all of those things above, why didn't you simply say something like...

"I've heard some people say that they consider Caribbean education subpar, but I personally don't know if it's true or not because I haven't attended a Caribbean school. Therefore, I can't really comment on the quality of the education myself."

... and be done with it? Oh no, you then apparently feel compelled to continue on and say:

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Yes, your training will continue after Ross, and unless you happen to get lucky (which is probably why the Ivy Leaguer said GOOD LUCK!) you will do your residency at some site sonsidered to be substandard. As logic would go, subpar education--subpar residency--subpar doctor...am I wrong.

Hilarious! Especially in light of your clear admission that you don?t know whether or not the education is truly "subpar".

There is some additionally comical exchange and attempt at making an argument offered, which has already been responded to. But, let's catch up to the stuff I haven't gotten to yet...

Originally posted by PnkJnky
What language to they teach in at Ross?

English, of course. And, it appears to be a language that you have substantial difficulty comprehending.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
You just said people are racist, so does that mean you are racist? Just because I say that some people hold these opinions doesn't mean I've adopted them. It's just ignorant to argue.

Where did I specifically say that? Or, are you inferring again? If that's all you've gotten from my posts, then you've entirely missed the point. I said people have prejudices. Talking about those prejudices and, better yet, getting people to acknowledge them is a good thing. Accepting prejudice without questioning, as reflected in statements like "that?s just the way it is", is akin to in my humble opinion similarly accepting racism or any other form of prejudice.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
"An interview" as in you only got one interview with all that money? Yeah, you must have been a great applicant. You know, your stupidity might have leaked out in your personal statement...rigged? Yeah it's one great big conspiracy against YOU! And now, how did they find you again...all FMG's are discriminated against too!

Unsubstantiated claim #10.

First off, why are you questioning my motives when they are none of your business and also not paramount to the discussion? As I alluded to before, I think there is a decent chance that I would?ve gotten an acceptance into some U.S. school had I retaken the MCATs and waited another year to apply. I feel fairly certain I would've gotten an acceptance to a D.O. program. But, knowing what most people ? the people who are important to me ? really think about a decision to go this route, and knowing what I knew about the truth and reality of my decision the time I made it, I would?ve been a fool to play the AMCAS game again. The education I?m getting here is every bit as good, in my opinion, as the one I would?ve gotten anywhere else. I may not be training at Columbia when I graduate, but I will get a good residency. It is an individual decision. It is my decision. And, I knew what I was getting into. That?s why I resent the fact that I?m erroneously lumped into a category based on innuendo and hearsay.

Besides, when did this discussion become about attempting to discredit me? Are you that lost in this argument that you have to turn to attacking my credentials ? something you know nothing about other than the few sparse details I?ve submitted here? You?re doing nothing more than furthering my point and making yourself look more and more like the typical "medical bigot" that I?ve been referring to.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
If somebody graduates from Harvard with a 4.0 and another person graduates from Baylor with a 4.0, and a school chooses the student from Harvard, is that discrimination?

No. And, that?s not what we?re talking about. We?re talking about medical students, who have proven their qualifications by passing and in many cases exceeding the scores of their USMG counterparts, not even being considered from the get-go by certain programs. Again, stay around? I?m going to show you some more fact-based information on that.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
If your school turned out GREAT RESIDENTS every year, future graduates would be offered GREAT RESIDENCIES! Apparently that's not the case.

Unsubstantiated claim #11. (Boy, you?re really racking them up, aren?t you?!?)

Ross does turn out many great residents every year, in fact. And, the number of programs that accept both USMGs and Ross grads ?side by side by side by side ? year after year into their programs evidences this.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
By the way, why didn't your great connections help you get into a US school? Oh yeah, I forgot, it was rigged? You have the statistical data to prove that, right?

Uh? I?m not sure that I follow this attempted argument, yet you continue to dig the ?pit of idiocy? a little deeper with each post and seem only to want to focus on my credentials ? something that is not germain to this argument. Nonetheless, there are clearly people in some states who get admissions despite the fact that they are less-qualified applicants than those who live in other states. And, for your information, such data is very hard to come by because AMCAS and the AMA aren?t very open about publishing it. But, there have been studies that have shown that a larger percentage of women applicants, for example, are accepted into programs over equally if not more qualified male applicants (e.g., women typically represent about 30-35% of the application pool, but get 40-45% of the admissions). Again, this is not offered to say that those female acceptees are not cut-out to be doctors or can?t hack it in medical school ? in fact, many of them probably have equal if not stronger applications than many males who weren?t accepted - but it is highly unlikely that the disproportion of those numbers is based solely on the vast superiority of the smaller pool of female applicants. Rigged? Eh? maybe. Not fair, clearly.

Originally posted by PnkJnky
Skip Intro and I probably don't differ too much in our opinions of carribean medical schools. While he wants justification for the inequality, warranted or not, I can't give that!

Again, just a disingenuous attempt at recanting everything that you?ve said over the past two weeks and trying to take some sort of moral high ground after you?ve been so incredibly condescending, arrogant, and rude. And, for the record, I think we vastly disagree on the decision to go this route.

 

[Skip Intro]

Part 3 ? Some Facts

Originally posted by Stinky Tofu
I really don't think it's fair for you to draw these analogies and some might even find it offensive (including myself).

Fair enough. Duly noted. And, understood. However, perhaps through being offended you can see how it feels from my perspective when I read such unsubstantiated judgments about my peers and myself when no concrete reasons are given as to why all Caribbean grads are immediately assumed to be ?inferior? just because we?ve gone this route. And, I will also show you why it is ?fair? of me to use such analogies in calling these baseless attitudes into question. And, just for the record, I?m equally offended by some of the garbage I?ve read on this thread ? much of which has been directed at me personally. So, who?s entitled to be more offended? You or me?

Nonetheless, if my comments irritated or offended you (or anyone else for that matter), then they most definitely served their purpose in that regard. I?m calling attention to unfounded bias and prejudice. I think prejudice is wrong in any shape or form that it may take. And, that?s why when anyone offers opinions as facts I expect them to support what they may purport about any individual member of a group ? regardless of who that person is, where they are from, or what their skin color is - with facts. And, I can only hope that this will stimulate some to rethink their opinions, where and when they got them, and from what sources they based them on. But, sadly from what I?ve witnessed on this thread I don?t have very high expectations.

Originally posted by Stinky Tofu
Yes, directors of US residencies do favor graduates of US medical schools. Many people don't really see anything wrong with this. There are financial incentives from the US government to do so amongst other things.

From my understanding (and please feel free to correct me if I?m wrong), the federal stipend received to train a physician in a residency program is the same whether or not the resident is a USMG or IMG. There is incentive in UNDERGRAD medical programs to accept in state residents as part and parcel to getting STATE education money that precludes many out of state residents from gaining a large number of acceptances at schools in other states. But, in my opinion, the doctor surplus is a myth (I?d be happy to present the COGME data on a separate thread) and, in reality, the U.S. probably needs 4 or 5 more allopathic medical schools not only to meet the needs of the aging baby-boomer population?s medical care but also to provide qualified applicants in the U.S. a chance to pursue their degrees domestically. This marries well into my counterargument about why Carib grads being, by definition, ?inferior? is false as a general statement.

Originally posted by Stinky Tofu
US medical schools produce physicians from a set of standards and a curriculum that US residency directors are familiar with. While Ross may have a rigoruous curriculum, most residency directors don't know this and probably don't care. Additionally, I really don't think it is their responsibility either to learn about the curriculums and qualities of schools outside of the US. Every year there are applicants to US residencies from hundreds of different countries. How is a director to know what standards these medical schools have for their students?

Yes, the LCME does certify that U.S., Canadian, and Puerto Rican medical schools fit the acceptable criteria for medical education as set forth by the AMA. Currently, those are the only medical schools that are included in that accreditation process. I think that Ross (and probably SGU) would welcome LCME accreditation procedures if they were offered. Nonetheless, as it now stands there are equal accreditation processes that Ross has undergone felt to be equivalent to the LCME?s, and which are found acceptable by the state of New York in providing for full acceptance of Ross (among three other schools) students to do their residencies.

Form 2CC is not needed for graduates of the following medical schools, which have been approved by the New York State Education Department to allow students to complete more than 12 weeks of clinical clerkships in New York State. The schools are:

-St. George's University School of Medicine, St. George's, Grenada

-Ross University School of Medicine, Roseau, Dominica

-Fatima College of Medicine, Manila, Philippines

-The Autonomous University of Guadalajara, Guadalajara, Mexico

State of New York DOE

This would point to the fact that Ross students (and those from the other schools listed) are ?known entities? and are acceptable, at least by New York?s standards, and able to continue their medical training without submitting to the requirements of an applicant from another ?unknown? school. As well, I believe all licensure boards in the U.S. will accept a degree from Ross and St. Georges (except for maybe South Dakota, although their licensure board may have recently changed its policies). I do not know this to be the case for all other international schools.

Originally posted by Stinky Tofu
You gave an example of a Caribbean grad who scores higher on the USMLE than his US counterpart and getting passed over. What does a higher USMLE alone really say when directors have doubts about the entire four years of a FMG's education?

This is a great observation and one that, I feel, goes directly to the heart of the matter. Where are those ?doubts? originating from, especially when you consider the fact that a graduate from schools who is a ?known entity? is not even potentially considered? And, that students have to pass the exact same licensure requirements, as well as complete their residency in the U.S., as USMGs prior to being able to practice medicine? Need some proof?

The purpose of the study was to test the hypothesis that discrimination exists against international medical graduates (IMGs) applying to US family practice residency programs.

Two sets of letters were sent to 146 family practice residency programs randomly selected from the Directory of Graduate Medical Education Programs. The letters requested information and an application. All letters were identical except that the author of the first set was described as "a foreign medical graduate."

A total of 113 programs (79%) responded. Of these, 102 responded to the fourth-year medical student and 57 responded to the IMG. Of the 46 programs replying to both candidates, only 20 provided identical mailings. Nine of the 46 programs required IMGs to meet standards that exceeded requirements set by the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates for residency training in the United States.

Evidence of discrimination against IMGs applying to FP residencies

And?

The authors sought to determine whether there is a selection bias against international medical graduate applicants for U.S. residency training positions in psychiatry.

Identical requests for a program application were sent by two resident applicants--one international medical graduate and one graduate of a U.S. medical school--to 193 residency training programs, and the rate and character of responses were compared.

The response rate to requests for an application form was significantly higher for the U.S. medical school graduate (159 responses) than the international medical graduate (87 responses). The quality of responses was also different in some cases.

Some residency programs in psychiatry are attempting to limit the influx of international medical graduate applicants at the very first level: the request for an application form. The reasons for this practice are not known, but discrimination could be a possible explanation.

Possible discrimination in recruitment of psych residents?

That is what one calls the proverbial ?smoking gun.? This, to me, points to clear prejudice ? and even in just attempting to get an application! Again, why?

Originally posted by Stinky Tofu
Yes, it is impressive when one obtains a high score; however, residency directors are aware of the fact that many FMGs spend much more time (months to a year) preparing for the USMLE than US medical students. A director might wonder what the curriculum is like during the first two years and during clinicals?

Okay, first I?d like to try to attempt to dispel the oft perpetuated but unsupported misperception, at least as far as Carib grads go, that a majority of IMGs spend ?months to a year? preparing for Step I. We are all tracking to make the NRMP along with U.S. students. A friend (who is a USMG and just started his Urology residency at a prestigious Chicago school) finished MS2 in early May of 2000. He took Step I at the end of June of the same year. He had approximately 6-7 weeks to prepare for Step I, and he scored a 232.

(cont?d)

 

[Skip Intro]

Part 3 ? Some Facts (cont?d)

When I complete my program in Miami (our ?fifth? semester), it will be mid-April next year. I will plan on taking Step I in June as well, and will have about 7-8 weeks to prepare for Step I. I am doing this in order to stay on track with Ross? curriculum and to get a head start on my FP rotation, which I can also complete in Miami. I can understand how many IMGs from Europe, etc. who have already finished medical school in their own country and may have even spent time practicing are not under similar time constraints. Likewise, many of my classmates intend to follow a similar study and test schedule. Part of Ross? matriculation and degree requirements ? just like all U.S. schools - is that you cannot advance in the program until you successfully pass Step I. Most of us do not wish to cause unnecessary delays in our educations in order to take additional (and probably unnecessary) time preparing for this test. Therefore, I think that such an argument, at least in our case, is more exception than rule.

Originally posted by Stinky Tofu
You can say they are excellent until you are blue in the face, but residency directors aren't gonna just take your word for it. There are countries where their medical community is held in high regard (Canada, England, Japan, etc.) and there aren't as many doubts; the Caribbean schools are not considered one of them.

First off, let me say that ?excellent? is not the word I would have chosen. ?Equivalent? would be a better word, as demonstrated by the fact that the pre-clinical teaching faculty is predominately U.S. and Canadian recruited MD?s and PhD?s (or both) who?ve taught at U.S. and Canadian medical schools, clerkships are done in the U.S. at ACGME sites, and we take the exact same NBME ?shelf? exams at the end of each semester, just like most U.S. students do, which also happen to form a large portion of our course score. Therefore, a ?good? or even ?great? board score should be indicative of the parity of training as well as the individual achievement of a particular student.

As far as doubts about the clinical training overall, I think that this study speaks for itself:

We defined criterion standards for 13 specific abdominal examination skills in accordance with a textbook that is widely used in US medical schools to teach physical diagnosis. These skills relate to performing a general examination of the abdomen as well as examination for suspected acute appendicitis.

We studied 148 first-year residents in internal medicine and pediatrics at our institutions, of whom 113 were USMGs and 35 were international medical graduates (IMGs).

Overall, USMGs performed significantly worse than IMGs for each of the 13 skills (P = .001 for each). There were no significant differences between specialties or among residency training programs.

The clinical skills of USMGs in this sample appears to be suboptimal. We note that participants in this study may not be representative of either the USMG or IMG population. However, USMGs in this study collectively attended 63 different US medical schools and as a group they received a grade of honors in 542 (80%) of the 678 required clinical clerkships during medical school. Thus, their clinical grades place them in the top quartile of USMGs in that year.

All IMGs in this study successfully completed this examination. Increased attention to clinical skills acquisition may be necessary in medical schools, and residency program faculty may need to conduct an assessment of basic clinical skills at the start of internship and provide appropriate remediation where indicated.

Physical Examination Skills of US and IMGs

It should be noted that the authors attribute this, in part, to the fact that the IMGs had to pass the CSA exam. It was also suggested that perhaps this should also be a requirement for USMGs. But, the mere fact that a basic ? and indeed cardinal ? clinical procedure that forms one of the cornerstones of medicine could produce such a clear disparity between USMGs and IMGs speaks volumes about the misperceptions about IMGs, especially when most of these students received honors scores in their clerkships.

(cont'd)

 

[Skip Intro]

Part 3 - Some Facts (cont'd)

Originally posted by Stinky Tofu
Other factors are that residency directors fear that having Caribbean grads in their program hurts their reputation. The director of my TY program took great pride in the fact that we only had one FMG and he qualified it with a "he was an Orthopod in his country". Anyway, my point is that these viewpoints are real and are some of the reasons why not all MDs are the same. This was the question wasn't it? The question wasn't whether or not it was fair that FMGs are passed over for AMGs with lower USMLE scores.

Again, interesting observation and I?m not disputing the fact that they are real. But, I think that one has to go deeper and ask ?why? this is the case. This is where I?d argue that a big part of the change has to come from the US medical student him or herself. Many, if not most, of the Caribbean students are here because they would be unable to secure a placement at a U.S. school. Many, though, probably could have had their situation been just right for them, say applying earlier or living in the right state. Likewise, I?d say that the majority of the students here now would compete just fine with most U.S. students, based on what I?ve seen. The difficult truth about this route is that the ?weaklings? get weeded out in such programs, and that?s why I?d admonish anyone who considers coming to the Caribbean painfully honest with themselves before they choose to do so. Quite simply, ask yourself if you?ve got the emotional strength and the stamina to go through a training program that is not going to be a cakewalk and certainly will not guarantee you standing and acceptance amongst all of your peers. You will have to prove yourself not only to yourself, but also to your U.S. peers over and over again when you finally make it back stateside. But, back to point?

The perception of Carib grads is clearly unfavorable and deeply entrenched in the minds of many. But, I think it is based more on perception than reality. Likewise, there may be a self-perpetuating cycle of misperception that potentially plays into the selection bias.

To examine whether the proportions of international medical graduates (IMGs) enrolled in certain residency programs would affect students' (meaning USMGs) selection of those programs during the match, and to determine the importance of this factor relative to other established program-selection factors.

One-third of the students received additional information about the programs' reputations; another third, information about the percentages of IMGs in the programs. The control group received no information about these two characteristics.

When the rankings and ratings of the control and intervention groups were compared, the programs with higher numbers of IMGs worsened significantly in rank and rating (p < .001 for both), whereas the programs with better reputations improved in rank (p < .001) and rating (p < .005).

The results suggest that the proportion of IMGs in a residency program is a significant factor in program selection and is as important as previously established factors such as program reputation. Students, however, do not acknowledge the importance of this factor. Program directors and governing bodies may want to consider these findings when evaluating the impact and distribution of IMGs in U.S. training programs.

Are international medical graduates a factor in residency program selection by USMGs?

This basically confirms what we already know: USMGs themselves are biased against IMGs. Furthermore, they fail to or are not even consciously able to acknowledge their bias! This bias may transcend ? consciously or subconsciously ? to the PD in his/her choice to even consider whether or not to entertain the application of an IMG. Even you have acknowledged this in your own program.

So, how do we change this? Should we change this? Do you (or anyone) else think that this is ?right? or ?justifiable? based on what evidence is out there?

Even more interesting and I would assume reflective of general sentiments in applying not only for radiology spots but other spots as well? (and, Cuts I hope you read this one)

A study was performed to determine which factors most influence the program rank lists of U.S. medical students applying for radiology residency and which sources of information about residency programs these medical students value most highly.

The three most important factors affecting rank lists were the perceived happiness of current residents within the program, the geographic location of the program, and the academic reputation of the department. Four of the five factors that scored most highly were judged to be outside the program director's control.

Medical students applying for radiology residency use many sources of information and weigh many factors in making their program rank lists. Many of the most influential factors are outside the direct control of the program director.

Factors that affect NRMP rankings by MGs

So, the PD can?t even ultimately control the factors that are most important to a potential resident. Yet, so much negative stereotyping is put upon the IMG by both the student and the PD that effectively, and without justification, nullifies any chance they may have at attaining a spot in certain programs. Again, why?

Originally posted by Stinky Tofu
Also, while Ross may fail 20% of its students and you are the cream of the crop, what is the crop? The medical students you are competing with are certainly not as competitive as the ones from US Medical schools.

Stinky, I only hope that this was a sincere comment and not an attempt at a backhanded compliment. As I already stated, many people will not survive this program. That is another fact that many don?t fully appreciate when they make the choice to come to Dominica. I can only hope the fact that I am surviving ? and will survive ? this program, that I will do my clinicals in the U.S. side-by-side with U.S. students, and that I will (hopefully) do exceedingly well on the boards will speak for itself. I ask for nothing except not to be prejudged.

My intent is to challenge peoples attitudes and to make people think. Thank you for being among the few who actually constructed a cogent response. I would hope the others that fell into their comfortable and false paradigms will do a little more soul searching, tone down their emotions, and look critically at their own opinions and how they arrived at them.

Lastly?

Originally posted by Stinky Tofu
Fact: State medical schools favor applicants from their state with lower MCAT scores and GPA. Do you think Adcom members of these schools would've also favored separate water fountains as well? Your suggestions are just plain wrong and to say the two are the same (favoring an AMG and racism) is really selfish and immature, in my opinion.

I?ve never disputed the fact that states prefer applicants as you?ve described. But, you are taking my analogy too far. Racism is an example of thought based on prejudice and misconception. There was a time when having separate water fountains was considered ?acceptable? and something that just ?is the way it is?, and therefore not to be challenged. The widely accepted ?inferiority? of an IMG as ?fact? is a similarly ill conceived thought process. Of course pure racism, in a denotative sense, is not equivalent to how IMGs are perceived? at least I hope not. At the very least it got you to think and to offer a challenge.

 

[Skip Intro]

Part 4 ? Intellectual Laziness

To further illustrate how quickly a legitimate question and conversation can devolve, I think it?s important to recount the flaming that people seem more comfortable engaging in instead of honest exchange of ideas.

Let?s see, on this thread so far, I?ve been told that I ?suck soooooo bad?, I?ve been told to ?f*ck off?, that I should waste my money and die by suffocation, it?s been insinuated that I?m ?not so bright?, that I am ?militant?, that the education I?m getting ?sucks?, that I can?t understand what I?m reading, that I need to ?listen up?, that I am only capable of constructing a ?poor? argument, that I am ?wasting my time?, that I have an unshatterable ego, that I have a ?monster chip on my shoulder?, that I ?talk trash?, that I whine and post ?irrelevant facts?, that I need to ?show a little respect?, that I fear rejection, that I?m a ?terrible advocate?, that what kept me out of U.S. medical school was my ?stupidity leaking out in (my) personal statement?, that I ?don?t seem to understand anything?, and that I am ?selfish? and ?immature.?

Hmmm? Do I sense a little projection here? All of this baiting ad hominem and still no addressing the basis of opinions supported with clear and relevant facts. What?s next? Will I get some assertions about how short, fat, and ugly I am along with speculation as to the size of my reproductive organ? Wouldn?t surprise me at this point.

And, then there is just clear demonstration of the willingess to ignore of facts and pick on the inconsequential in a vain attempt to bolster a specious argument. For anyone who really wants to question the quality of the residency programs Ross grads get, why don?t you start with Mayo Clinic and Cleveland clinic. If that doesn?t occupy your time, try researching Michigan St.?s general surgery program. (In the first place, how can anyone so casually use the word ?subpar? to describe any ACGME approved residency program?)

For those of you who?ve lost track, I?ve been talking about unfounded bias, prejudice, and elitist attitudes that I?ve clearly exists yet I?ve shown have little if any provable basis in reality. Yet, many of you seem more than comfortable turning the argument back against me. Has any one seriously thought about anything I?ve said?

Let?s talk about the discrimination thing some more, especially given the fact that almost 25% of practicing physicians in the U.S. are IMGs. Hopefully, this will put to rest my being called into question about the validity making such an argument.

International medical graduates gravitate toward initial residency programs in internal medicine and pediatrics, many of which have unfilled positions; however, IMGs subspecialize at a disproportionately high rate, reducing their net contribution to the generalist pool. Patterns of ultimate practice location of IMGs parallel the patterns of US medical graduates (USMGs).

In recent years, participation of IMGs in GME (Graduate Medical Education) and practice has increased significantly. Most IMGs in GME are not exchange visitors, but are either permanent residents or US citizens. Patterns of specialization and location of IMGs ultimately mirror those of USMGs. National IMG policy must be examined in light of the projected surplus of physicians in the United States. The best option for long-term control of the number of physicians in practice, USMG or IMG, is a system of specifying the number of GME positions nationally.

Medical Migration and the Physician Workforce

And?

All programs were linked to their principal teaching hospitals, and hospitals were assessed according to the number of programs based at each institution, the number of IMG-dependent programs at the institution, and whether no-pay patients and/or Medicaid/public assistance beneficiaries constituted more than 20% of the patients served.

The proportion of programs dependent on IMG enrollment was 27.7%, ranging from 5.2% in obstetrics and gynecology programs to 49.5% in psychiatry programs. About 72% of all first-year IMGs were in IMG-dependent programs. Of the 688 hospitals serving as principal teaching sites for programs in at least one of the six core specialties, 106 were categorized as dependent on IMG programs, but only 77 of those provided a disproportionate amount of care to the poor. Finally, 40% of the IMG-dependent GME programs and 36% of first-year IMG residents were based in hospitals that did not provide a disproportionate amount of care to the poor.

Moreover, a large number of IMG residents and IMG-dependent programs are in hospitals that do not provide a disproportionate amount of care to the poor. These findings show the scale of the problem policymakers must address if they choose to limit IMG access to GME while maintaining access of the poor to needed hospital care.

Participation of IMGs in healthcare for the poor

Wait a minute! There exists about 25% of the physician workforce in the U.S. that is foreign-trained ? this is an undisputable fact. And, IMGs are expected (wink-wink, nudge-nudge) to fill the less ?popular? residencies, but aren?t doing that like they?re supposed to. So, IMGs should not be allowed to specialize and take-up USMG spots, despite the fact that they may in some cases have superior qualifications (as demonstrated by board scores and coursework at institutions that also teach U.S. med students)? And, they are good enough to practice in underserved areas and to meet the needs of the indigent. Yet, they are still considered inferior doctors?!??? So, a U.S. trained doctor?s purported ?superior training and expertise? should be used primarily on the middle and upper classes (and maybe occasionally on the indigent if they?re lucky)? Isn?t that what this is really saying? That IMGs sole purpose is to meet unmet medical needs in indigent communities? Talk about elitist, classist rhetoric! And, to think that such clear racism and classism is so pervasive in the medical profession and completely tolerated without question. Heck, forget the IMGs! The people in the U.S. who should be most offended by such sentiments are members of lower socioeconomic groups who apparently shouldn?t consider themselves privileged enough to expect medical care from doctors who did their undergraduate medical training at a U.S. school. At least, that?s what this is saying to me.

The problem with many (not all) aspiring U.S. medical students and newly starting out USMGs, as well as many other doctors in general - no matter where they are from, is their sense of entitlement. This goes back to IRON_DUKE?s original reason for starting this thread: are we or are we not ultimately doctors? However, I think this post, as illustrated by the data I?ve gathered for you, shows there is a demonstrable, clear USMG superiority complex. I think many USMGs, and anyone who?ll ultimately call him/herself doctor, need to think about their true motivations for going into medicine as well as their own biases about the field. Was that motivation to help the patients they will ultimately see (like they almost undoubtedly said in their personal statement in their application), or was it more for some egoistic primary gain of being perceived as some ?special class? of citizen in the U.S.? In the U.K., being a doctor is considered to be more of a form of social service. In the xenophobic U.S. medical world, it appears that USMGs feel they are entitled to some kind of special treatment.

What was my motivation? I love medicine. Pure and simple. I?ve spent the majority of my adult life so far in its pursuit of its knowledge. I think that passion is clear to the people who know me, and that I will be successful no matter where I go. Sadlym, I can?t say the same about many of the doctors I?ve met in my lifetime. If someone is going to look down upon me because of where I did part of my formal training, then I can?t really be bothered with them anyway ? I?ll never be able to live up to their overinflated expectations no matter how good I ultimately become. But, people?s motivations, in general, aren?t important provided they do their job the way they?re supposed to. Isn?t that all anyone real asks and expects of a doctor after all?

I think everyone who was offended and retaliated against me needs to take a deep breath and then a serious humility check. After that, critically and with an open mind re-read what I?ve posted here. Please use your big brains, people. That?s one of the benefits of having evolved into a species with such a large frontal cortex. Try to use that instead letting your limbic system take over. And, if what I?ve said here still offends you, pisses you off, makes you hate me? so be it! My primary mission here is not to win friends. Nonetheless, I still challenge EACH of you who may feel that way to think outside the box instead. So, before you knee-jerkedly push that respond button and direct nasty, critical, attacking comments at me, why don?t you engage your whole brain first and question what you believe and why you believe it instead.

 

[Skip Intro]

Part 5 ? Conclusions and Your Responsibility

Well, to sum up (finally )?

If you want to know what initially lit the fire under my rear-end about this whole issue, it was some comments by Dr. Cuts. I do not accept his position that he should have to, in essence, apologize for going to the Caribbean to get his MD. Moreover, I was (needless to say) more than a little disappointed that he opted to attempt to dissuade anyone from going this route in lieu of defending his decision. But, I don?t fault him for saying what he felt. In fact, I respect him. However, I just don?t share that opinion. Likewise, I can only hope that once many of you get out into the real world and start practicing and really learning medicine during your clinical years, you?ll see that there?s not as much brouhaha about this whole issue as many would have you believe.

Nonetheless, I humbly request that everyone do what he or she can, in all fairness, to not lump people together and prejudge them based on their background. The ways that you can help to make a difference is to do at least the following things:

1. Most laypeople do not understand what it takes to become a doctor in the U.S. Heck, many na?ve starting out first-year med students in the U.S. don?t either. For example, if you asked the average Joe on the streets what they think about a Caribbean grad, he?ll probably say, ?I just want to know why he/she wasn?t good enough to get into U.S. medical school? Why would I want to go see a sub-par doctor who?s going to misdiagnose me and give me the wrong medication.? By now you should know that there is no evidence that this happens anymore than it does with American medical graduates. And, there is a possibility as well that they may have already been treated by a Carib grad (or other IMG) and not even known it. What you can do to help them understand ?what it takes? to be a doctor in the U.S. is to explain to them that every licensed physician (a requirement in order to practice medicine in all 50 states) must pass the exact same three-step United States Medical Licensure exams regardless of where they did their training. Next, he/she must do a qualified residency at an American Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) recognized residency program. Before they can do those two things, no doctor is even allowed to attempt to continue their medical career in the United States unless they can prove that they attended a World Health Organization recognized medical program, documenting adequate training in the medical sciences. The chances are that the person who made the original comment probably didn?t know that.

2. You may have the opportunity to work someday with a great Caribbean grad (yes, they exist) or other IMG. When you do, remember that person and how good they were. Remember that person even if they were only just as good as everyone else. The next time you see a Caribbean grad make a gaff, remember not to judge ALL Caribbean grads by that one not-so-shining example, just like you wouldn?t judge all USMGs by one lousy example. I think it?s part of human nature to use parts to represent the whole. In my book, that?s prejudice pure and simple. Recognize this as simple transference, understand it, and don?t let it happen.

3. You may hear another doctor say, ?You know, all Caribbean grads pretty much suck at medicine? or something of the like. Before accepting that statement as true without first pondering it just simply ask them, ?What do you mean?? If you don?t get a concrete answer, but only a bunch of hollow opinions about not being good enough for U.S. school (or the like), consider the credibility of the source. Remember that most schools rely on in-state students to attend in order to get fully funded. Many very qualified students who didn?t happen to live in the ?right? state got passed over and had to pursue other alternatives. Just because someone is a great diagnostician doesn?t mean that they?re well informed on other matters. Likewise, you may want to tell him/her about the great Caribbean graduate you worked with during your residency. Remember, too, that your very opinions may shape the way PDs think as well.

We must ALL recognize our own biases and prejudices as well as seek ways to minimize them. The best way to do this is to judge people as individuals, not by the coat that they wear. I?d imagine, based on what I know, what I?ve seen, and the research I?ve done, that many of PDs who have such low opinions of IMGs may not have ever trained one. Who knows how this bias got so deeply entrenched into many people?s thinking, but I think in most cases it is based only on logical fallacy and false assumptions. Yes, this blanket bias clearly exists. I just can?t find any good, solid evidence as to why it should. So, please do the right thing and help to stamp out this prejudice whenever you may have the chance.

Thank you to all who?ve read and participated in this thread so far (even you PnkJnky and lola),

-Skip Intro

 

[lola]

i believe there are some students in the caribbean who are really arrogant and argumentative. i believe there are some carib students who will not make good doctors. i believe there are some carib students who don't understand logical though processes. i believe this, because i've read your posts on sdn.

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by lola
why would you argue this? you don't f**ing know me. after reading all your stupid posts (well... didn't actually read every word b/c your arguments are illogical half the time)

Yeah, lola, you're making a REAL strong case for yourself. I'm scrolling through to make sure I don't have any UBB errors, and I see you've picked out the one thing that's about you that you didn't like - and it's the only thing you respond to.

And, don't mistake your inability to follow a logical argument - one that you haven't even read all the way through yet - for anything other than what it is.

Originally posted by lola
i now believe some people from the caribbean (i.e. YOU) will not make very good doctors. i didn't particularly believe this before, but now i certainly do.

Oh, please. You are sounding more and more like a spoiled little rich girl with each passing post. You like that characterization? Well, I don't like being characterized by people like yourself for choices I made that you know - when it comes down to it - nothing about.

Originally posted by lola
i only make "personal attacks" against you, because you don't seem to comprehend a word i say and try to make it look as if i'm saying horrible things when i'm not.

Let's go back to the top of this very post...

you don't f**ing know me. after reading all your stupid posts (well... didn't actually read every word b/c your arguments are illogical half the time)

You are sounding more and more like someone on Jenny Jones or Jerry Springer than anything else to me.

Originally posted by lola
and one more thing... the only reason more people aren't arguing against you is b/c you're IMPOSSIBLE to argue with. you don't seem to comprehend what people are trying to say, and then try to argue some weird point.

I think that StinkyTofu put together a fine, well thought out response. Too bad you haven't been able to do the same. I don't care about what you choose to parrot from other people. You seem unwilling to admit that you have adopted these beliefs as well, and are only trying to hide behind them by stating that they are the "opinions" of others.

Originally posted by lola
p.s. try to make it short and to the point. your long winded tirades are a real bore.

Sometimes you have to elaborate at great lengths to prove a point and not to be misconstrued. Perhaps you should practice that some more. And, you have contributed nothing meaningful to any of this discussion as of yet. And, if you don't like the heat or the topic, get the frig' out of the kitchen! No one is compelling you to come here. If you have nothing valuable to offer, then don't waste your time pressing all those little keys in front of you, then clicking on the "Submit Reply" button before you've engaged your brain.